Where is spirituality taking us? Is it getting dangerous?

Zachary Cox69 said:Exactly. If you didn't accept Him, you rejected Him. If He's the only way to salvation, then those who turn away are responsible for their own fate.

Every person should put in the work to figure out if God actually exists or not.
Once you settle that, the next step is figuring out which God is the real deal—there are way too many fakes out there. Third, once you recognize God and know who He truly is, you have to ask what that means for you personally—basically, how can I live a life that honors Him?

Zachary Cox69 said:Exactly. If you didn't accept Him, you rejected Him. If He's the only way to salvation, then those who turn away are responsible for their own fate.

Every person should put in the work to figure out if God actually exists or not.
Once you settle that, the next step is figuring out which God is the real deal—there are way too many fakes out there. Third, once you recognize God and know who He truly is, you have to ask what that means for you personally—basically, how can I live a life that honors Him?

Zachary Cox69 said:Exactly. If you didn't accept Him, you rejected Him. If He's the only way to salvation, then those who turn away are responsible for their own fate.

Every person should put in the work to figure out if God actually exists or not.
Once you settle that, the next step is figuring out which God is the real deal—there are way too many fakes out there. Third, once you recognize God and know who He truly is, you have to ask what that means for you personally—basically, how can I live a life that honors Him?

Thomas Nelson25 said:If you aren't part of the community... you're headed straight to hell.
Sadly, 😢

lonestag15 said:Heaven sounds pretty sweet
But hell's got all the best people 😉

...nah, let's just all grab our exit tickets haha—we'll probably end up in the same spot anyway...

Thomas Nelson25 said:If you aren't part of the community... you're headed straight to hell.
Sadly, 😢

lonestag15 said:Heaven sounds pretty sweet
But hell's got all the best people 😉

...nah, let's just all grab our exit tickets haha—we'll probably end up in the same spot anyway...

lonestag15

If a person lives morally, it shouldn't matter whether they believe in God or not... if God exists, He’d surely prefer a moral atheist over an immoral "believer." But then again, if a believer sticks to science, they'll likely be plenty moral.

There is no such thing as a right or wrong God... if one exists, then all beliefs are just attempts to interpret the very same thing.
Thinking there's a "right" or "wrong" God just creates conflict.

Personally, I find God unfathomable, and I don't think we should have any idols representing Him (which is a commandment, anyway)... but to worship Him, to me, means respecting His existence. The relationship between a person and that unfathomable God can simply be gratitude for my own existence.

Through that gratitude, humility comes...

And as for pleasing God—well, you can only please something that has human-like characteristics that desire to be pleased... but hey, if that's how you view God, then He surely prioritizes morality and ethics above all else.

wearyowl29

What about those who just see his existence as a way to serve their own interests?

You make a good point—we believe, but that freedom of choice feels pretty narrow. It’s like the kids being baptized, where they're basically forced into these family ties with various gods.

lonestag15 said:Look, nobody’s forcing you to baptize a kid; it’s a decision made within the family unit... for instance, I wasn't even baptized at all. When it came time for First Communion, I actually liked the whole vibe and decided (as smart/dumb as I was back then) that I wanted both my baptism and my First Communion. So, my parents played it totally fair... other parents can just leave that choice up to their kids (like, my sister chose ethics class whenever she had the chance, while I stuck with religion)... honestly, it's all a family matter.

And if someone is already baptized but doesn't want anything to do with the church anymore, they can officially opt out... literally get a paper stating they aren't considered part of that community anymore.

Zachary Cox69 said:

wearyowl29

What about those who just see his existence as a way to serve their own interests?

There are definitely people like that—especially lately among some Protestant pastors, specifically those TV evangelists. They’ve never truly experienced God from within, and they never will. For them, Jesus said: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the fiery furnace prepared for the devil and his angels."

You make a good point—we believe, but that freedom of choice feels pretty narrow. It’s like the kids being baptized, where they're basically forced into these family ties with various gods.

The early Christians didn't baptize infants—in fact, most Protestants don't even practice baptism today. Even Catholics and Orthodox Christians who do perform it emphasize that it isn't about salvation itself, but rather raising children in the faith and teaching them about God. Unfortunately, most people miss that part. Take the Baptists, for example—they bring a child in, the pastor holds them, and the whole church offers a blessing. But the actual baptism happens when they grow up, and only if they want it for themselves.

Mark 16:15-20
The Word of the Lord

At that time, Jesus appeared to the eleven and said: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.""

See, first there has to be belief (if they choose to), and then comes the baptism.
And at the end of the day, it doesn't say those who aren't baptized will be judged—it says those who don't believe that Jesus is Jesus Messiah will be.
Do you see yourself in that?

wearyowl29 said:Well, in my case, they baptized me and didn't ask me a single question!

It's actually pretty tough to "un-baptize" yourself because the organization doesn't want to rock the boat. They love keeping those numbers high for their statistics, even though in reality, they're smaller than they look since for most people, it's just cultural folklore and tradition rather than an actual way of life.

wearyowl29 said:Well, in my case, they baptized me and didn't ask me a single question!

It's actually pretty tough to "un-baptize" yourself because the organization doesn't want to rock the boat. They love keeping those numbers high for their statistics, even though in reality, they're smaller than they look since for most people, it's just cultural folklore and tradition rather than an actual way of life.

Thomas Nelson25 said:Freedom

Honestly, feels like it's all for nothing if you aren't out there doing the solo spiritual grind 😁

Zachary Cox69 says:

Jesus continues teaching: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father in heaven
"

Zachary Cox69 said:

lonestag15

If a person lives morally, it shouldn't matter whether they believe in God or not... if God exists, He’d surely prefer a moral atheist over an immoral "believer." But then again, if a believer sticks to science, they'll likely be plenty moral.

It matters quite a bit. First off, God loves everyone—He doesn't just split people into believers and non-believers.
Of course, He's pleased when we believe, show respect, love Him, and express gratitude for creating us and saving us. Sin is the reason we can't reach God. And there isn't a single person out there, no matter how moral they are, who hasn't committed some kind of sin. So, someone who believes asks for forgiveness and receives it (if they're sincere) because Christ took our sins upon Himself.
There's this story in the New Testament
where someone approaches Him and says: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And He responds: “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good! But if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” The man asks: “Which ones?” And Jesus says: Do not murder! Do not commit adultery! Do not steal! Do not bear false witness! Honor your father and mother! And love your neighbor as yourself!” The young man replies: “I have kept all these. What do I still lack?” Jesus tells him: If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me. At those words, the young man went away sad because he had great wealth. And Jesus said to His disciples: “Truly, I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom.”

So, he was moral, and he was a believer, but God wasn't his first priority.

There is no such thing as a right or wrong God... if one exists, then all beliefs are just attempts to interpret the very same thing.
Thinking there's a "right" or "wrong" God just creates conflict.

There are plenty of "gods" when you look at what people believe in. But there is only one true God, the creator of the world and of us. Yahweh is the one; everything else is just a substitute. Anyone who reads the New Testament carefully will see that's the case.

Personally, I find God unfathomable, and I don't think we should have any idols representing Him (which is a commandment, anyway)... but to worship Him, to me, means respecting His existence. The relationship between a person and that unfathomable God can simply be gratitude for my own existence.

Through that gratitude, humility comes...

And as for pleasing God—well, you can only please something that has human-like characteristics that desire to be pleased... but hey, if that's how you view God, then He surely prioritizes morality and ethics above all else.

Absolutely. If anything upsets God, it's immorality. Especially immoral believers.
That's actually why I walked away from God at one point. For me, the church "helped" convince me that God didn't exist, even though that isn't its mission.
But later, after visiting plenty of good churches—both Catholic and Protestant—I realized it's not all flowers or all trash.

Funny enough, my first words ever directed toward god (I intentionally wrote "god" in lowercase because I thought He didn't exist, but still...) were: "If You exist, give me some proof, some sign, and then I'll believe in You." I've been a believer since then.

Zachary Cox69 said:

lonestag15

If a person lives morally, it shouldn't matter whether they believe in God or not... if God exists, He’d surely prefer a moral atheist over an immoral "believer." But then again, if a believer sticks to science, they'll likely be plenty moral.

It matters quite a bit. First off, God loves everyone—He doesn't just split people into believers and non-believers.
Of course, He's pleased when we believe, show respect, love Him, and express gratitude for creating us and saving us. Sin is the reason we can't reach God. And there isn't a single person out there, no matter how moral they are, who hasn't committed some kind of sin. So, someone who believes asks for forgiveness and receives it (if they're sincere) because Christ took our sins upon Himself.
There's this story in the New Testament
where someone approaches Him and says: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And He responds: “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good! But if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” The man asks: “Which ones?” And Jesus says: Do not murder! Do not commit adultery! Do not steal! Do not bear false witness! Honor your father and mother! And love your neighbor as yourself!” The young man replies: “I have kept all these. What do I still lack?” Jesus tells him: If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me. At those words, the young man went away sad because he had great wealth. And Jesus said to His disciples: “Truly, I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom.”

So, he was moral, and he was a believer, but God wasn't his first priority.

There is no such thing as a right or wrong God... if one exists, then all beliefs are just attempts to interpret the very same thing.
Thinking there's a "right" or "wrong" God just creates conflict.

There are plenty of "gods" when you look at what people believe in. But there is only one true God, the creator of the world and of us. Yahweh is the one; everything else is just a substitute. Anyone who reads the New Testament carefully will see that's the case.

Personally, I find God unfathomable, and I don't think we should have any idols representing Him (which is a commandment, anyway)... but to worship Him, to me, means respecting His existence. The relationship between a person and that unfathomable God can simply be gratitude for my own existence.

Through that gratitude, humility comes...

And as for pleasing God—well, you can only please something that has human-like characteristics that desire to be pleased... but hey, if that's how you view God, then He surely prioritizes morality and ethics above all else.

Absolutely. If anything upsets God, it's immorality. Especially immoral believers.
That's actually why I walked away from God at one point. For me, the church "helped" convince me that God didn't exist, even though that isn't its mission.
But later, after visiting plenty of good churches—both Catholic and Protestant—I realized it's not all flowers or all trash.

Funny enough, my first words ever directed toward god (I intentionally wrote "god" in lowercase because I thought He didn't exist, but still...) were: "If You exist, give me some proof, some sign, and then I'll believe in You." I've been a believer since then.

Zachary Cox69 said:

lonestag15

If a person lives morally, it shouldn't matter whether they believe in God or not... if God exists, He’d surely prefer a moral atheist over an immoral "believer." But then again, if a believer sticks to science, they'll likely be plenty moral.

It matters quite a bit. First off, God loves everyone—He doesn't just split people into believers and non-believers.
Of course, He's pleased when we believe, show respect, love Him, and express gratitude for creating us and saving us. Sin is the reason we can't reach God. And there isn't a single person out there, no matter how moral they are, who hasn't committed some kind of sin. So, someone who believes asks for forgiveness and receives it (if they're sincere) because Christ took our sins upon Himself.
There's this story in the New Testament
where someone approaches Him and says: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And He responds: “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good! But if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” The man asks: “Which ones?” And Jesus says: Do not murder! Do not commit adultery! Do not steal! Do not bear false witness! Honor your father and mother! And love your neighbor as yourself!” The young man replies: “I have kept all these. What do I still lack?” Jesus tells him: If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me. At those words, the young man went away sad because he had great wealth. And Jesus said to His disciples: “Truly, I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom.”

So, he was moral, and he was a believer, but God wasn't his first priority.

There is no such thing as a right or wrong God... if one exists, then all beliefs are just attempts to interpret the very same thing.
Thinking there's a "right" or "wrong" God just creates conflict.

There are plenty of "gods" when you look at what people believe in. But there is only one true God, the creator of the world and of us. Yahweh is the one; everything else is just a substitute. Anyone who reads the New Testament carefully will see that's the case.

Personally, I find God unfathomable, and I don't think we should have any idols representing Him (which is a commandment, anyway)... but to worship Him, to me, means respecting His existence. The relationship between a person and that unfathomable God can simply be gratitude for my own existence.

Through that gratitude, humility comes...

And as for pleasing God—well, you can only please something that has human-like characteristics that desire to be pleased... but hey, if that's how you view God, then He surely prioritizes morality and ethics above all else.

Absolutely. If anything upsets God, it's immorality. Especially immoral believers.
That's actually why I walked away from God at one point. For me, the church "helped" convince me that God didn't exist, even though that isn't its mission.
But later, after visiting plenty of good churches—both Catholic and Protestant—I realized it's not all flowers or all trash.

Funny enough, my first words ever directed toward god (I intentionally wrote "god" in lowercase because I thought He didn't exist, but still...) were: "If You exist, give me some proof, some sign, and then I'll believe in You." I've been a believer since then.

lonestag15 said:Well, I guess we are... we don't exactly have an official membership card or a ritual to prove it, right?

Zachary Cox69 said:That's just not right. If you haven't made things right with God, then you're headed to hell.
"There are many inside who are actually outside, and plenty of those outside who are truly inside"—that's what the Catholic theologian and priest Hans Küng once said.
By the way, I'd highly recommend his book "The existence of God" to anyone interested.
When I was personally moving away from atheism and turning back toward God, it really helped me out.

This whole "inside and outside" thing refers to the Catholic Church and the Kingdom of God—basically, heaven.

Thomas Nelson25 said:Ever actually ask the folks at the church what eternity even means?

lonestag15 said:Everything you just laid out—all those traits you're attributing to God—are just human characteristics...

Sin is basically the reason we can't just walk up to God... I mean, let's be real—there isn't a single person on this planet, no matter how much of a saint they try to act like, who hasn't messed up at some point. So, if you actually believe, you pray for forgiveness and you get it—assuming you're being genuine, obviously—because Christ took all our sins upon himself...
So, you know that one story from the New Testament...
So, picture this—some guy walks up to Jesus and asks him straight up, “Teacher, what’s the move if I want eternal life?” And Jesus basically hits him with, “Why are you asking me about what's good? There's only one truly good one. But look, if you actually want in, just follow the commandments.” The guy’s like, “Which ones?” So Jesus lays it out: Don’t kill. Don’t commit adultery. Don’t steal. Don’t lie. Honor your parents. And love your neighbor as yourself. The young guy goes, “Yeah, but I’ve done all that. What am I missing?” And Jesus tells him, “If you want to be perfect, go ahead—sell everything you own, give the money to the poor, and you’ll have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me.” Man, the kid just walks away looking totally crushed because he was loaded. And Jesus turns to his disciples and says, “Seriously, I'm telling you, it's incredibly hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I'll say it again: it’s easier for a devil to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

So, look—the guy was moral, sure, and he believed... but let's be real, God wasn't exactly his number one priority...

Yahweh was in the Old Testament...

The first time God actually spoke up, He used that "I am" line—revealed Himself by that exact name... which basically just points to pure existence.
Eheye asher eheye—it basically comes from the concept of "to be," like I am going to "be"... I don't even know how else to put it... And Yahweh is just a derivative of that whole idea.

So, what actually happened with that request?...

wearyowl29 said:Well, in my case, they baptized me and didn't ask me a single question!

It's actually pretty tough to "un-baptize" yourself because the organization doesn't want to rock the boat. They love keeping those numbers high for their statistics, even though in reality, they're smaller than they look since for most people, it's just cultural folklore and tradition rather than an actual way of life.