Amy Bennett said:I can—I was an atheist for most of my life. But honestly, it isn't simpler or more beautiful. There’s just no sense to it, and it actually feels completely at odds with how we experience ourselves and the world we live in.
You didn't comment on the post I was actually referring to.
The question was: if God wants people to know Him and respect Him, why doesn't He just prove Himself to everyone individually? Why would He expect people in the 21st century to rely on inconsistent, unreliable, and primitive records from centuries ago that have been edited countless times by who-knows-who? If He is all-powerful, it wouldn't cost Him anything to prove His existence. Is the point that we should respect God and be "good" (because, let's be real, everyone would listen if He made His presence unambiguous and clearly dictated the rules 🤷) or is it that He's testing our naivety—or should I say, our stupidity?
How could He have expected any different from people before the 21st century? Are we somehow special, requiring something extra to convince us, as if we possess something they didn't?
And I don't buy the idea that everyone would fall in line if He just showed up. The entire Bible actually tells stories to the contrary. It feels a little silly to look at these things totally out of context, and then make these claims in the same conversation where we mention the Fall—which happened precisely because people ignored what God told them. On the other hand, I'm not even sure what would satisfy many people's need for proof of God's existence. I mean, even if all the stars in the sky rearranged themselves tomorrow to spell out "I am the Lord your God...", the question is how many atheists would actually be convinced. Some might, sure, but let's not kid ourselves—there's a whole drawer full of "secular explanations" for a phenomenon like that, ranging from mass hallucinations or some magician's trick to aliens messing with us, plus the whole spectrum of other possibilities. Also, it isn't clear that God "wants" rules to be followed blindly; if He did, He wouldn't have created us with free will (regardless of whether you personally believe in free will, I'm speaking within the context of the Christian narrative). The point is about living a moral life because it *is* a moral life, not just because some rules dictate it. It's about a genuine desire to return to God and align one's life with Him. Maybe those who truly seek find exactly what they are looking for. Perhaps God is always there, but we've closed ourselves off. Maybe we don't see Him because we've become too alienated, even from ourselves. The problem with the atheistic approach is that it searches for God with a magnifying glass, looking for spectacular material evidence. If you're going to look for God, the only "laboratory" that works is the one inside your own mind.
Quote:| Yeah, and what about Arabs and Asians? Does their Islam, Shintoism, or whatever else they follow hold the same weight as Christianity—or are they destined for hell because that "almighty" God somehow missed the memo about how many billions of people have multiplied on this side of the globe? Maybe He just overlooked them. |
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I don't think everyone is just headed for hell. I think we really need to unpack what "believing" actually means here. Does someone who is Roman Catholic only on paper believe any more than someone who truly lives and practices Islam? Does a person truly believe if their faith is reduced to nothing more than a verbal profession? Does a person feel genuine remorse when they say they repent, or is it just a hollow word? Or is true repentance something much deeper and different? There’s no denying that massive religious traditions exist worldwide—and I’m certainly not going to tell you they are all identical—but I do believe these traditions generally point in a similar direction. This brings to mind a quote that has always resonated with me:
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
― Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers
It isn't hard to imagine that several different paths might lead to the summit of that mountain.
wiredfalcon2 says:
This is exactly my point—you believers take what science has proven to be baseless nonsense and turn it into an allegorical story just so you can say, "Oh, nobody actually believes that literally." Five hundred years ago, you would have been burned at the stake for suggesting the Earth wasn't made in seven days, and no one would be spinning tales about it being an "allegorical version." If God wrote the Bible through His followers—which is what faith tells us—then either everything in it is literal truth, or God doesn't exist. You can't just pick and choose which parts are allegory and which aren't based on whatever suits the current generation of believers. Why would God ever tell the world He created the Earth in seven days if He didn't? Why say people lived 700–800 years ago if they didn't? Why say a burning bush can speak if it can't? Why say Moses parted the sea if he didn't? Why say the Earth is the center of the universe if it isn't? Etc., etc...
See, that's the kind of "pure logic" you guys refuse to accept. And since you won't engage with it, we end up having these discussions centered on value judgments just to try and bring you closer to understanding the depth of your own misconception.
Who says an allegory isn't truthful? If I recall correctly, I even mentioned that calling something an allegory doesn't make it untrue. And how do you distinguish between allegory and literalism? Well, you read the text with understanding. I don't see people struggling this much to differentiate between literal and allegorical elements in almost any other type of literature. As for the idea that it’s "all or nothing"—either everything is literal truth or God doesn't exist—that’s hardly worth debating. Even if the entire Bible were just something humans dreamt up, that wouldn't mean God doesn't exist. I've said this before, and I honestly don't get why it keeps coming up. Finally, addressing the core of your argument: it simply isn't true that people only started calling these things "allegory" after science "discovered" the reality of things. People have debated these concepts forever. Regarding the seven-day creation specifically, a quick Google search or checking the first result on Wikipedia would show you that->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allego...ons_of_Genesis
The opening chapter of Genesis tells a Story of God's creation of The Universe and humankind as being accomplished over The course of six successive Days. Some Christian and Jewish schools of thought ( such as Christian Fundamentalism) interpret these passages quite literally—basically believing each "day" lasted a full 24 hours. Others (like Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and mainline Protestant denominations) tend to view the narrative more allegorically—arguing that the core purpose is to explore the bond between humanity, the creation, and the Creator, rather than providing a literal historical timeline. To them, those six days might just represent vast stretches of time.
Genesis 2 Records a second account of creation. By chapter 3, we meet a talking serpent, which Christians understand to be Satan in disguise. It’s interesting to note that this kind of symbolism is embraced even by Christians Who believe The Story as a whole is based on an actual historical event . [ citation needed ] Many Christians in Ancient Times regarded the early chapters of Genesis to be true as both history and allegory.[1]
Other Jews and Christians have Long considered The creation account of Genesis as an allegory even prior to The development of modern science and The scientific account based on The scientific Method. For instance, we could look at two notable examples ara Christian theologian Augustin of Hippo Who in The 4 th century argued—for purely theological reasons—that God actually brought the entire universe into existence all at once, rather than following the literal six-day sequence;[2] or even the 1st-century Jewish scholar Philo of Alexandria, who suggested it would be a mistake to pin creation down to six days or any specific timeframe at all.[3]
Of course, this brings up some deeper questions about what an allegory actually is—questions that, honestly, I think both of us struggle with. You seem to feel that calling something an allegory makes it a fiction, whereas I’ve always felt that allegory and truth don't have to be at odds. There are also questions regarding history itself; personally, I believe these narratives shape our very history, but I don't necessarily mean the world was built in seven literal 24-hour days. It’s more about how these stories use symbolism to capture the essence of what actually took place.
It seems like most former atheists who end up finding faith usually went through some kind of serious illness or a massive life crisis right before they converted... Then you've got the other crowd, people who were deep into drugs or getting caught up in crime, so they basically just swapped one extreme lifestyle for another, and now they're acting more devout than the Pope himself. For people who couldn't quite figure out how to handle the weight of life, religion acts like this defensive mechanism, sort of a crutch for their emotions... And then there are those who claim they had some kind of "transcendental" experience—whether that was triggered by substances, a medical seizure, or a near-death experience—which flipped a switch in them, even though doctors can pretty much explain those sensations away quite easily...
Personally, I find my way of looking at things just much simpler and more beautiful, and honestly, everything feels crystal clear this way... Those deep philosophical questions that nobody can actually answer just stay unexplained, and frankly, they don't really affect me as they are. To me, the whole point of life is just actually living it. My conscience is totally clear. You guys can't even skip Sunday service or deal with certain private habits without feeling a massive wave of guilt hitting you. I don't need to go out of my way to act religious just to realize it isn't any better, just like I don't need to put a bullet in my head to know that I wouldn't like it... 😁
Amy Bennett Jesse Jackson said:I mean, how could people living before the 21st century have even imagined something like that... honestly, do we really need some special sign or something just to convince us that we’re different, like we're somehow uniquely special or lacking all those things that people back then actually had in abundance...
So, looking at where we're at now, we all basically know that Earth wasn't actually formed in just seven days, that Eve didn't pop out of Adamov's rib, and that the burning bush probably wasn't literally talking... back in the day, people used to get burned at the stake just for suggesting stuff like that, but now that we actually understand how things work, everyone just pivots and claims those stories were always meant to be allegories and that's what they intended all along. Like, what else are we supposed to pretend they didn't mean? It feels like such a tragedy when you think about all those people who were persecuted or even killed just because they were sticking to scientific facts that contradicted the Bible, and it makes you wonder why a good God would let people suffer like that just because His own book wasn't written clearly enough... He had one job... 😁
Amy Bennett Jesse Jackson said:I don't really buy the idea that everyone would just drop everything and listen if He made His presence crystal clear... I mean, the whole Bible is basically built around that exact tension. It feels a little silly to look at all this stuff totally stripped of its context, and then turn around and make these heavy claims in the same breath as the Fall—which, let’s face it, happened precisely because people tuned out what God was telling them... On top of that, I’m honestly not sure what it would actually take for most people to be convinced of God's existence. Like, even if every single star in the sky rearranged itself tomorrow to spell out "I am the Lord your God," you have to wonder how many atheists would actually buy it. Sure, some might, but let's be real, there's an entire drawer full of "secular explanations" ready to go... anything from mass hallucinations or some prank by cosmic trolls to aliens messing with our heads, plus that whole spectrum of other possibilities... It's also not even clear that God "wants" us to follow rules blindly, because if that were the case, He wouldn't have given us free will in the first place (regardless of whether you personally believe in free will, we're talking about the context of the Christian story here)... So the point is really about living a moral life because it *is* a moral life, not just because some rulebook says so. It's about having a genuine desire to return to God and align your life with Him. Maybe those who truly seek, find what they're looking for... Maybe God is always right there, but we've just closed ourselves off. Maybe we can't see Him because we've become too alienated from our own souls... The issue with the atheist approach is that they try to hunt for God with a magnifying glass, looking for these massive, material proofs. But if you're going to look for God, the only real laboratory you've got is the one inside your own mind...
I mean, if He’s truly all-knowing, He’d definitely know every single individual soul out there that needs a nudge to accept His existence... So if He’s also all-powerful, proving Himself to everyone one by one shouldn't even be a challenge for Him. If He could show up for "Doubting Thomas," why wouldn't He just show up for every other skeptic out there? Just popping into their room and pulling off a few miracles until they finally get it should be a total breeze for someone like that...
Even a flat-earther would be convinced the Earth is round if you just floated them up in a warm air balloon way past the stratosphere and into space, where they could see the whole thing at once. If some hypothetical omnipotent being actually wanted people to realize the planet is a sphere, it would honestly be in their best interest to just make it happen and convince them...
So what's the deal then with this god you guys believe in? Why does He rely on this one ancient book that fewer and fewer people actually take seriously anymore?...
It’s either because He isn't all-powerful, or He just doesn't care about us. Or, you know, He just isn't there... 😁
Amy Bennett said:I don't think everyone is going to burn in hell. We really need to unpack what "believing" actually means here. Does someone who is just Roman Catholic on paper actually believe more than someone who truly believes in and practices Islam?...
Obviously not, that "Catholic" is probably heading straight to hell because it’s hard to imagine someone with such a shallow faith confessing all those sins they were busy committing throughout their life... You spend your whole life overeating and drinking too much at weddings and baptisms and then just forget about it all, boom, you're in the eternal fire. As for a Muslim, I don't know, that's why I'm asking...
Amy Bennett said:Does a person truly believe if their faith boils down to just making a verbal proclamation? Does someone actually repent when they just say the words "I repent," or is there maybe a little bit of regret there? Or is real repentance something much deeper and different? It's undeniable that there are many massive religious traditions in the world, and I won't tell you they're all the same, but I also feel like most of them are pointing in basically the same direction... There's this quote I personally love:
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
― Robert Jastrow, God and the Astronomers
And it's not hard to imagine that there might be several different paths leading to the top of that mountain...
So, in your eyes, is the whole point of religion just blind faith, regardless of what exactly you're believing? Like, as long as you act according to whatever you blindly believe, that's enough to stay in God's good graces? Even if you're physically disciplining your wife in accordance with your faith, or looking down on people from other religions?...
