Question about atheists

Lisa Jackson7 said:I didn't see any kind of dilemma from DeVinci—not based on anything he’s posted in this thread.

Never heard of Meher Baba before, but I get where he's coming from regarding all those rituals—though honestly, I think you just need to find a balance... especially in this sense.

Religion without Spirituality | Spirituality without Religion Quote : if The essence of spirituality is The search to know Our true selves , then know that its a Life Long process , and perhaps IT requires many births and rebirths ( only god completely knows The true mystery of Our Soul and its evolutionary process of merging with Truth -> Religion without Spirituality | Spirituality without Religion Quote

If the essence of spirituality is the search to know Our true selves, then know that its a Life Long process, and perhaps IT requires many births and rebirths (only God completely knows The true mystery of Our Soul and its evolutionary process of merging with Truth -> Religion without Spirituality | Spirituality without Religion Quote Cut the act—you don't need to play-act some super deep, "enlightened" persona just because you're chasing personal nirvana. That’s just straight-up narcissism. You can't force meditation any more than you can force yourself to reach actual spirituality—it just doesn't work like that. Honestly, all you really need is just to stay awake to life—and more importantly, to actually be aware of who you are.

So, what’s the move after this? Simple—it's time to serve.

And there it is—the absolute grip religion has on people. Organized religion in all forms and tradition does a very good job aspiring The faithful into that. It sets the stage—gives us the structure and the groundwork we need to actually exist in this world and get to work. It's about being able to serve others. That’s how you actually serve the Creator—by showing up for the people around you.

People call themselves "spiritual" while totally ignoring the person cleaning their house for pennies—just paying next to nothing for actual hard work—only to drop thousands on some fancy trip to visit a random tomb halfway across the world. Or they'll skip helping hungry kids or the homeless right on their own street just to book another flight to join some "spiritual group." Honestly, that's sol nonsense in The Eye of Beloved, who cries at the suffering of humanity and laughs at the joyful heart of humanity.

don't you think gladden The Heart of that extremely poor of The humanity was much more important Than going on sol called spiritual travel ( another escape route for selfish luxury

Honestly, this is one of the best takes I’ve read on this subject. Religion without spirituality is just performing dry, empty rituals—do this, do that, blah blah blah—but then again, spirituality on its own can easily turn into nothing more than an excuse for narcissism.

If you're asking if this affects atheists—it doesn't. They aren't even on the train, so they aren't exactly traveling toward the destination. I mean, it’s not quite right to say they’re "wasting time" because honestly, some of them can be incredible people who actually live by the morals their religions preach. They might end up progressing spiritually—sometimes even faster than those followers who just go through the motions of rituals without any actual substance. In some future life, an ex-atheist will eventually jump on one of the trains.

Look, it’s not about whether someone lacks a purpose—whether they're an atheist, a believer, some guy from Alaska, or just works at State Farm, etc.
That's not how I see it.

You don't have to be religious to jump in and help out a charity or a non-profit; an atheist can be perfectly moral and still grow spiritually... honestly, comparing people on that level is just pointless.

But we aren't just talking about one person's spiritual journey—we're talking about the community. Eventually, the morality of a secular society is going to run dry—kind of like a crew on a spaceship who decides to just live off their emergency reserves, thinking they won't ever need a new source... because they're too arrogant to think they'll actually need it.

What exactly are you basing that assumption on? Especially when you consider how incredibly bleak the moral landscape can be in societies with a heavy religious influence—at least when measured against atheist moral standards, which rightly view things like murder, silencing people, or sexual assault as fundamentally wrong.

Nicole James said:What exactly are you basing that assumption on? Especially when you consider how incredibly bleak the moral landscape can be in societies with a heavy religious influence—at least when measured against atheist moral standards, which rightly view things like murder, silencing people, or sexual assault as fundamentally wrong.

For those believers, the ultimate sin is just anything that doesn't fit their mold: not having kids, "deviant" sexuality—their words, not mine—tearing down the patriarchal family unit, and obviously, denying God and faith. You can't even ask questions from our side of the fence. We’re living in two different worlds that just don't speak the same language.

wiredfalcon2 said:For those believers, the ultimate sin is just anything that doesn't fit their mold: not having kids, "deviant" sexuality—their words, not mine—tearing down the patriarchal family unit, and obviously, denying God and faith. You can't even ask questions from our side of the fence. We’re living in two different worlds that just don't speak the same language.

That thesis is completely wrong.
We aren't talking about a focused, clear faith here; we're talking about pure diabolical delusion.

Justin Baker6 said:That thesis is completely wrong.
We aren't talking about a focused, clear faith here; we're talking about pure diabolical delusion.

If my points were actually wrong, you’d see it in the numbers. Look at the facts: believers managed to pull together around 700,000 signatures demanding that the names of every single predator in the church be made public and that they face actual prison time. Compare that to the measly few hundred signatures gathered trying to ban gay marriage. It speaks for itself.

wiredfalcon2 said:If my points were actually wrong, you’d see it in the numbers. Look at the facts: believers managed to pull together around 700,000 signatures demanding that the names of every single predator in the church be made public and that they face actual prison time. Compare that to the measly few hundred signatures gathered trying to ban gay marriage. It speaks for itself.

Believers aren't just some one-sided force, they're a goddamn powerhouse.

Justin Baker6 said:Believers aren't just some one-sided force, they're a goddamn powerhouse.

Look, I’m not talking about every single person out there, just the majority of those "practical" believers. I mean the crowd that checks the "religious" box on the census just so they can celebrate Christmas, which is really just an excuse for a family get-together. It’s not even a religious thing for them; they're just marking some totally made-up date for Christ's birth that isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

wiredfalcon2 said:So, what you're saying is God made a bunch of people so dim-witted they can't even wrap their heads around whether eating pork is okay or not... and he supposedly made them in his own image? Geez, we really lucked out with a bad God.

I mean, I don't think there's really any basis for jumping to those kinds of conclusions, you know? People have free will, and instead of actually working on themselves—like progressing through history, building literacy, or advancing science—humanity has mostly just spent its time fighting wars and wrecking whatever tiny bit of progress we actually managed to make. And honestly, we're still doing it. I don't think God is the one to blame here. Plus, when you think about it, the human race is actually super young, maybe like 3.5 million years since we split off from our common ancestors with apes.
The whole "made in His image" thing probably means that every single person carries a little spark of God inside them, like a soul. But we also have minds that can go totally haywire and this free will that gives us the right to just spit on everything—and eventually, that bad karma from those choices always catches up to us.

It’s not that we drew the short straw with a bad God, but rather that there is only one. 🙂 The one who gave you life in the first place, and who somehow manages to put up with us being the way we are. He's truly amazing, I guess. 🙂

Lisa Jackson7 said:I didn't see any kind of dilemma from DeVinci—not based on anything he’s posted in this thread.

Never heard of Meher Baba before, but I get where he's coming from regarding all those rituals—though honestly, I think you just need to find a balance... especially in this sense.

Religion without Spirituality | Spirituality without Religion Quote : if The essence of spirituality is The search to know Our true selves , then know that its a Life Long process , and perhaps IT requires many births and rebirths ( only god completely knows The true mystery of Our Soul and its evolutionary process of merging with Truth -> Religion without Spirituality | Spirituality without Religion Quote

If the essence of spirituality is the search to know Our true selves, then know that its a Life Long process, and perhaps IT requires many births and rebirths (only God completely knows The true mystery of Our Soul and its evolutionary process of merging with Truth -> Religion without Spirituality | Spirituality without Religion Quote Cut the act—you don't need to play-act some super deep, "enlightened" persona just because you're chasing personal nirvana. That’s just straight-up narcissism. You can't force meditation any more than you can force yourself to reach actual spirituality—it just doesn't work like that. Honestly, all you really need is just to stay awake to life—and more importantly, to actually be aware of who you are.

So, what’s the move after this? Simple—it's time to serve.

And there it is—the absolute grip religion has on people. Organized religion in all forms and tradition does a very good job aspiring The faithful into that. It sets the stage—gives us the structure and the groundwork we need to actually exist in this world and get to work. It's about being able to serve others. That’s how you actually serve the Creator—by showing up for the people around you.

People call themselves "spiritual" while totally ignoring the person cleaning their house for pennies—just paying next to nothing for actual hard work—only to drop thousands on some fancy trip to visit a random tomb halfway across the world. Or they'll skip helping hungry kids or the homeless right on their own street just to book another flight to join some "spiritual group." Honestly, that's sol nonsense in The Eye of Beloved, who cries at the suffering of humanity and laughs at the joyful heart of humanity.

don't you think gladden The Heart of that extremely poor of The humanity was much more important Than going on sol called spiritual travel ( another escape route for selfish luxury

Honestly, this is one of the best takes I’ve read on this subject. Religion without spirituality is just performing dry, empty rituals—do this, do that, blah blah blah—but then again, spirituality on its own can easily turn into nothing more than an excuse for narcissism.

If you're asking if this affects atheists—it doesn't. They aren't even on the train, so they aren't exactly traveling toward the destination. I mean, it’s not quite right to say they’re "wasting time" because honestly, some of them can be incredible people who actually live by the morals their religions preach. They might end up progressing spiritually—sometimes even faster than those followers who just go through the motions of rituals without any actual substance. In some future life, an ex-atheist will eventually jump on one of the trains.

Look, it’s not about whether someone lacks a purpose—whether they're an atheist, a believer, some guy from Alaska, or just works at State Farm, etc.
That's not how I see it.

You don't have to be religious to jump in and help out a charity or a non-profit; an atheist can be perfectly moral and still grow spiritually... honestly, comparing people on that level is just pointless.

But we aren't just talking about one person's spiritual journey—we're talking about the community. Eventually, the morality of a secular society is going to run dry—kind of like a crew on a spaceship who decides to just live off their emergency reserves, thinking they won't ever need a new source... because they're too arrogant to think they'll actually need it.

I'm with you on all of this, 👍

wiredfalcon2 said:Look, I’m not talking about every single person out there, just the majority of those "practical" believers. I mean the crowd that checks the "religious" box on the census just so they can celebrate Christmas, which is really just an excuse for a family get-together. It’s not even a religious thing for them; they're just marking some totally made-up date for Christ's birth that isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

The date itself is kind of invented, you know? Like, it's symbolic because nobody actually knows the real date. Most historians pretty much agree he was born in late summer, actually. I heard about this one spiritual teacher who supposedly received it in meditation that he was born on September 3rd according to our current calendar. But honestly, it doesn't really matter when he was born.
December 25th is just the day when the Roman Empire used to celebrate the festival of the Sun (Sol Invictus), so I guess it was just convenient to adopt that as a Christian holiday. Though, there are probably other theories out there about why they picked that specific day, too. When the actual date is a mystery, any other date works well enough, I suppose. 🙂

Yeah, a lot of believers see faith more as tradition or customs and stuff like that. Although, I don't think we should really judge, because faith is such an internal thing, and you can't really tell if someone is truly devout just by looking at their outward actions. It doesn't really matter whether they follow the rituals of one religion or another, I guess.

What do people mean when they talk about free will? Honestly, it sounds like nonsense to me. Who actually possesses free will? Does someone struggling with severe schizophrenia have it? Does a six-year-old girl—who is sold to some predator and subjected to unimaginable horror—have any choice in her fate? Or consider a child groomed from infancy to become a suicide bomber in the name of Allah; does that child really exercise free will? To my mind, "free will" is nothing more than a convenient, hollow excuse used to mask the reality that God is just as absent as any other imaginary entity we've conjured up...

Gregory Jackson said:The date itself is kind of invented, you know? Like, it's symbolic because nobody actually knows the real date. Most historians pretty much agree he was born in late summer, actually. I heard about this one spiritual teacher who supposedly received it in meditation that he was born on September 3rd according to our current calendar. But honestly, it doesn't really matter when he was born.
December 25th is just the day when the Roman Empire used to celebrate the festival of the Sun (Sol Invictus), so I guess it was just convenient to adopt that as a Christian holiday. Though, there are probably other theories out there about why they picked that specific day, too. When the actual date is a mystery, any other date works well enough, I suppose. 🙂

Yeah, a lot of believers see faith more as tradition or customs and stuff like that. Although, I don't think we should really judge, because faith is such an internal thing, and you can't really tell if someone is truly devout just by looking at their outward actions. It doesn't really matter whether they follow the rituals of one religion or another, I guess.

In your opinion, why did God never mention when his son was born? 🙂

It’s really not that black and white.
Every single atheist out there has their own specific reasoning—their own set of convictions—as to why they don't buy into religious nonsense.
Now, if you ask me, a huge chunk (maybe even most!) of atheists actually struggle to put their exact stance into words.
But hey, there are actual reasons for that!
One major factor is that religiosity is, among other things, tied to intelligence.
What I mean by that is that a believer often lacks the intellectual breadth required to truly grasp a world where God simply doesn't exist.
I like to explain it using a little analogy:
Imagine a believer riding in an elevator—that represents their entire world, moving from the lowest floor to the highest floor the elevator can reach.
The problem is, the believer has absolutely no clue what exists outside that elevator shaft.
(Instead of an elevator, you could imagine them trapped inside the covers of the Bible, the Quran... or whatever else acts as a cage for their mind.)

Another point we absolutely cannot overlook is that an atheist would never go out of their way to bother a believer.
However, the sheer aggression found in almost all religions is specifically designed to be intolerant of atheists.
It’s an old rule of thumb: a believer will almost always tolerate someone from a different faith—even one they despise—much more easily than they will tolerate an atheist.
So, where do we see this intense friction between believers and atheists?
You find it in the most primitive environments: Afghanistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia... even right here in America.
Meanwhile, in places where religious questions are just fringe issues in society—like the Czech Republic, Sweden, Germany, or France...

And so...

Bryan King3 said:It’s really not that black and white.
Every single atheist out there has their own specific reasoning—their own set of convictions—as to why they don't buy into religious nonsense.
Now, if you ask me, a huge chunk (maybe even most!) of atheists actually struggle to put their exact stance into words.
But hey, there are actual reasons for that!
One major factor is that religiosity is, among other things, tied to intelligence.
What I mean by that is that a believer often lacks the intellectual breadth required to truly grasp a world where God simply doesn't exist.
I like to explain it using a little analogy:
Imagine a believer riding in an elevator—that represents their entire world, moving from the lowest floor to the highest floor the elevator can reach.
The problem is, the believer has absolutely no clue what exists outside that elevator shaft.
(Instead of an elevator, you could imagine them trapped inside the covers of the Bible, the Quran... or whatever else acts as a cage for their mind.)

Another point we absolutely cannot overlook is that an atheist would never go out of their way to bother a believer.
However, the sheer aggression found in almost all religions is specifically designed to be intolerant of atheists.
It’s an old rule of thumb: a believer will almost always tolerate someone from a different faith—even one they despise—much more easily than they will tolerate an atheist.
So, where do we see this intense friction between believers and atheists?
You find it in the most primitive environments: Afghanistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia... even right here in America.
Meanwhile, in places where religious questions are just fringe issues in society—like the Czech Republic, Sweden, Germany, or France...

And so...

Just another missionary, but we've seen this one before.🤦

wiredfalcon2 said:In your opinion, why did God never mention when his son was born? 🙂

I mean, who would He even tell? I guess we’d have to find someone sitting there talking to Him just to suggest the topic, right?

But honestly, it feels kind of irrelevant, you know? Like, the actual physical day someone comes into the world doesn't really matter much. The soul isn't something that gets "born" and it certainly doesn't die, so... yeah. I suppose the Creator probably doesn't spend time worrying about those little human details or satisfying our curiosity about dates and stuff.

If you ask me, 🙂

Nicole James said:What do people mean when they talk about free will? Honestly, it sounds like nonsense to me. Who actually possesses free will? Does someone struggling with severe schizophrenia have it? Does a six-year-old girl—who is sold to some predator and subjected to unimaginable horror—have any choice in her fate? Or consider a child groomed from infancy to become a suicide bomber in the name of Allah; does that child really exercise free will? To my mind, "free will" is nothing more than a convenient, hollow excuse used to mask the reality that God is just as absent as any other imaginary entity we've conjured up...

I feel like once you truly wrap your head around how karma works, you'll finally get what I'm talking about, especially regarding that whole connection between karma and free will.

But, honestly, I think it’s probably just a waste of energy to try and hash this out with an atheist who hasn't had even a single moment of spiritual insight or an open mind. I don't mean to be rude or anything, I really don't, but our perspectives are just so incredibly far apart that there isn't much ground to cover here, which is just a reality of life. Anyway, have a nice life! 🙂

Bryan King3 said:It’s really not that black and white.
Every single atheist out there has their own specific reasoning—their own set of convictions—as to why they don't buy into religious nonsense.
Now, if you ask me, a huge chunk (maybe even most!) of atheists actually struggle to put their exact stance into words.
But hey, there are actual reasons for that!
One major factor is that religiosity is, among other things, tied to intelligence.
What I mean by that is that a believer often lacks the intellectual breadth required to truly grasp a world where God simply doesn't exist.
I like to explain it using a little analogy:
Imagine a believer riding in an elevator—that represents their entire world, moving from the lowest floor to the highest floor the elevator can reach.
The problem is, the believer has absolutely no clue what exists outside that elevator shaft.
(Instead of an elevator, you could imagine them trapped inside the covers of the Bible, the Quran... or whatever else acts as a cage for their mind.)

Another point we absolutely cannot overlook is that an atheist would never go out of their way to bother a believer.
However, the sheer aggression found in almost all religions is specifically designed to be intolerant of atheists.
It’s an old rule of thumb: a believer will almost always tolerate someone from a different faith—even one they despise—much more easily than they will tolerate an atheist.
So, where do we see this intense friction between believers and atheists?
You find it in the most primitive environments: Afghanistan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia... even right here in America.
Meanwhile, in places where religious questions are just fringe issues in society—like the Czech Republic, Sweden, Germany, or France...

And so...

The core message, though, is supposed to be about loving God and loving your neighbor. Since God isn't a physical person you can just spot walking down the street, the practical takeaway is to love our neighbors—meaning all people and living things—because God is in everyone, including atheists. You don't need a massive IQ for that, really; you just need heart. Someone who actually has heart doesn't need to beat their brains out wondering why the Bible says one thing here and something else there, because that's just secondary stuff caused by human imperfection.

The thing is, someone with a huge intellect might sometimes lack that heart. Atheists tend to "look" through their intellect since they haven't had that spiritual experience, and you can't really grasp why someone believes what they do or what they see in the Bible or the Quran using just logic. Because of that misunderstanding, an atheist might think a believer is just being stupid. But a true believer wouldn't ever think that about an atheist, because they truly love their neighbor. 🙂

Emotional intelligence. That’s really all you need to say to sum up the whole damn thing instead of writing endless novels.

Gregory Jackson said:I mean, who would He even tell? I guess we’d have to find someone sitting there talking to Him just to suggest the topic, right?

But honestly, it feels kind of irrelevant, you know? Like, the actual physical day someone comes into the world doesn't really matter much. The soul isn't something that gets "born" and it certainly doesn't die, so... yeah. I suppose the Creator probably doesn't spend time worrying about those little human details or satisfying our curiosity about dates and stuff.

If you ask me, 🙂

And who gets to decide what counts as a "triviality," Gregory Jackson? Billions of believers celebrate a completely made-up date for Christ's birth, and every high-ranking church official uses televised specials to reach people during Christmas... clearly, it's a huge deal when it comes to religious moments and living out one's faith.

Gregory Jackson said:The core message, though, is supposed to be about loving God and loving your neighbor. Since God isn't a physical person you can just spot walking down the street, the practical takeaway is to love our neighbors—meaning all people and living things—because God is in everyone, including atheists. You don't need a massive IQ for that, really; you just need heart. Someone who actually has heart doesn't need to beat their brains out wondering why the Bible says one thing here and something else there, because that's just secondary stuff caused by human imperfection.

The thing is, someone with a huge intellect might sometimes lack that heart. Atheists tend to "look" through their intellect since they haven't had that spiritual experience, and you can't really grasp why someone believes what they do or what they see in the Bible or the Quran using just logic. Because of that misunderstanding, an atheist might think a believer is just being stupid. But a true believer wouldn't ever think that about an atheist, because they truly love their neighbor. 🙂

See? Some of those conclusions are already spot on.
Go ahead and give my previous post another read—it might just help broaden your horizons a little bit more.
Actually, feel free to read it as many times as you need until it clicks...

Bryan King3 said:See? Some of those conclusions are already spot on.
Go ahead and give my previous post another read—it might just help broaden your horizons a little bit more.
Actually, feel free to read it as many times as you need until it clicks...

Hahaha, man, you just can't seem to grasp the core of what I'm saying, so I guess there's no point in even trying, right? You're looking at this from the view of someone stuck in an elevator—or maybe like that old saying about a frog in a well, I suppose. But hey, your username is pretty funny, I gotta hand it to you 👍