Religion classes in school - Megathread

Alexander Ortiz3 said:When I say 90%, I’m talking about the rough percentage of school-aged kids enrolled in religious education classes. It tends to be slightly higher during elementary school and dips a bit during high school, but there isn't really any massive deviation from that figure.
Now, how many of those students and their families actually practice their faith on a daily basis is an entirely different conversation. You see all sorts of examples—kids from non-religious households finding their way toward faith, and others moving in the opposite direction.
Personally, I am strongly against forcing anyone to attend religious classes; that would be terrible. At the same time, I don't believe anyone should be discouraged or blocked from attending if they want to.
Choosing to opt out of religious studies just to follow a fad is honestly ridiculous. I don't even know what to say about parents who just chase after fleeting trends... though I doubt there are many like that. Who would actually send their child to listen to something they consider "bad" just because it's trendy?
The only downside I see here is that the government hasn't organized ethics classes in elementary schools the way they have in high schools, which leads to these issues with unsupervised free periods.
Furthermore, I’ve never heard the vast majority of people who choose religious education calling for it to be made mandatory for everyone. On the flip side, you constantly hear complaints from the minority who don't want it, often leading to calls to ban religious education for everyone, including those who actually want it. As for those parents who care more about neighborhood gossip than their own child's well-being, it's probably best not to even engage with them.
Looking at parental guidance, many parents don't bother teaching their children how to read or do basic math, yet they still send them to school to learn those things.
The bottom line is this: religious education is strictly voluntary. There are no negative consequences for those who choose not to participate. Trying to get into the specific reasons why someone chooses one faith over another—or none at all—is a complicated rabbit hole.
The only real issue is the gap in the schedule during those free periods, and the responsibility lies solely with the state to organize something for them. No one else can step in to handle that, and it's certainly not up to the Church to manage public school schedules.

P.S. According to official data from the 2011 Census, over 90% of Americans identify with various religious denominations, while atheists and agnostics make up less than 10%. Various religious organizations can organize these classes in accordance with parental interests.

I have to admit, I didn't quite follow your point about the "excessive Mass." I assume you're referring to the Roman Catholic Church. The truth is, nobody can force you to send your child to any religious service. If you do choose to send them, then you have to accept the rules of the religious community you selected for your child. Otherwise, find another one. We live in a free country.
If a parent views a religious rite as senseless or unnecessary, I truly wonder why they would expose their own children to something they hold such a negative opinion about.

Is that really how it works, though? I mean, just how many votes would a political party have to pull in an election to be granted the right to teach mandatory political science classes in our elementary and high schools?

What library are we even talking about!? The one that’s only open half the time because the librarian is constantly off somewhere? Every time you actually need the facility for a mentorship program, she’s away at some seminar or whatnot. In just two months, my kid managed to try visiting that library exactly three times.
The solution is right in front of us, and honestly, people have suggested it a thousand times already: REVERSE SHIFT SCHEDULES

It’s actually quite telling how much some people fight against this idea—the idea that kids should be able to walk over to school (even if they aren't staying for after-school care) to access something so vital to their education. Personally, I don't mind driving my child four times a week to sports practice, even though I wouldn't call athletics "essential for saving one's soul from eternal damnation," which is how certain religious education classes seem to frame things for believers. If they truly believed in that, they'd be rushing to those classes regardless of where they were held.

Look, from a practical standpoint, it doesn't affect me directly, other than the fact that my child isn't heading to the library right now instead of sitting in some office, and the third graders aren't getting to go and have a blast. But in two or three years, when more than half of them stop going and there's no organized after-school supervision available—well, then the school is going to face a "tiny" little problem with crowds of unsupervised kids hanging around the entrance. And I’m thinking about that first incident that triggers a visit from the local inspectors; let's see whose rights carry more weight: the churches fighting for preferential placement of religious studies in the middle of the school day, or our children's right to safety within the mandatory school system.

I really want to tackle this one specific cliché people keep throwing around—this idea that because a majority supposedly voted for religious education in the past, it should stay. But here’s the thing: religious ed wasn't brought into schools through any kind of democratic process or by the will of the people. It was pushed through via pure political trickery and sold out for a Judas kiss. It's unconstitutional (no matter how much our esteemed Supreme Court tries to pretend otherwise), so there shouldn't even be a need for a referendum to scrap it. If we actually lived in a real rule-of-law nation, religious ed would have been kicked back to the churches long ago through a simple legal procedure.

Nicole James said:Is that really how it works, though? I mean, just how many votes would a political party have to pull in an election to be granted the right to teach mandatory political science classes in our elementary and high schools?

Are you seriously trying to compare religious freedoms with political ones? 😁

Michelle Nelson4 said:What library are we even talking about!? The one that’s only open half the time because the librarian is constantly off somewhere? Every time you actually need the facility for a mentorship program, she’s away at some seminar or whatnot. In just two months, my kid managed to try visiting that library exactly three times.
The solution is right in front of us, and honestly, people have suggested it a thousand times already: REVERSE SHIFT SCHEDULES

It’s actually quite telling how much some people fight against this idea—the idea that kids should be able to walk over to school (even if they aren't staying for after-school care) to access something so vital to their education. Personally, I don't mind driving my child four times a week to sports practice, even though I wouldn't call athletics "essential for saving one's soul from eternal damnation," which is how certain religious education classes seem to frame things for believers. If they truly believed in that, they'd be rushing to those classes regardless of where they were held.

Look, from a practical standpoint, it doesn't affect me directly, other than the fact that my child isn't heading to the library right now instead of sitting in some office, and the third graders aren't getting to go and have a blast. But in two or three years, when more than half of them stop going and there's no organized after-school supervision available—well, then the school is going to face a "tiny" little problem with crowds of unsupervised kids hanging around the entrance. And I’m thinking about that first incident that triggers a visit from the local inspectors; let's see whose rights carry more weight: the churches fighting for preferential placement of religious studies in the middle of the school day, or our children's right to safety within the mandatory school system.

Reverse scheduling wouldn't work for those attending religion classes. Why would they want to make an extra trip from home to the school when the alternative is for the kids who *don't* attend religion class to spend their free hour inside the building?
So, it's a completely selfish opinion that only looks out for their own interests without caring if it makes life harder for everyone else.

Jason Ortiz5 said:I really want to tackle this one specific cliché people keep throwing around—this idea that because a majority supposedly voted for religious education in the past, it should stay. But here’s the thing: religious ed wasn't brought into schools through any kind of democratic process or by the will of the people. It was pushed through via pure political trickery and sold out for a Judas kiss. It's unconstitutional (no matter how much our esteemed Supreme Court tries to pretend otherwise), so there shouldn't even be a need for a referendum to scrap it. If we actually lived in a real rule-of-law nation, religious ed would have been kicked back to the churches long ago through a simple legal procedure.

Religious studies were integrated into the school system because of international treaties. Look, I’m generally all for referendums and letting the people have their say, but that just isn't an option for this particular issue.
The reality is that most parents opt into religious instruction for their kids, which I assume is an indirect way of showing where they stand on the matter.
Any citizen can file for judicial review, which the Supreme Court is legally obligated to resolve; they don't have the option to just ignore it. If you think you actually have a shot at changing things, stop waiting and start drafting that petition immediately.

If kids want to walk to church because they’re big on religious studies, fine by me. But I really think believers should stick to spreading their faith behind closed doors instead of trying to push it onto secular ground that's meant for children of all faiths.

And frankly, the Supreme Court just washed its hands of those Vatican treaties like Pontius Pilate.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Reverse scheduling wouldn't work for those attending religion classes. Why would they want to make an extra trip from home to the school when the alternative is for the kids who *don't* attend religion class to spend their free hour inside the building?
So, it's a completely selfish opinion that only looks out for their own interests without caring if it makes life harder for everyone else.

Selfish? 🥳

That hour is just one small part of a child's day. After school, during the second shift they might be heading to ESL classes, soccer practice, drama club, or just running around at the local park enjoying some fresh air...
Instead, they’re stuck sitting in a quiet classroom, staring at the ceiling, all because someone was too lazy to show up for their preferred subject during the later shift.
Who’s actually being selfish here?

Alexander Ortiz3 said:Reverse scheduling wouldn't work for those attending religion classes. Why would they want to make an extra trip from home to the school when the alternative is for the kids who *don't* attend religion class to spend their free hour inside the building?
So, it's a completely selfish opinion that only looks out for their own interests without caring if it makes life harder for everyone else.

LOL, oh, I'm the selfish one because I find it unacceptable that my child is officially—and very soon, practically—being ignored by everyone, essentially wasting time at school. But no, it isn't selfish for the people who designed this system to carry it out, right?

If nothing else, I'm glad these debates always end up exposing the hypocrisy. Apparently, the "poor little feet" of children who would need to switch shifts are somehow more important than my children's rights. It’s equality, American style! You really have to be born and raised here, living this specific "American Dream," to truly grasp the depths of the twisted logic used in our little corner of the world just to flatter a hypocritical, narrow-minded, and xenophobic society. 🙂

Anyway, like I mentioned before, the moment a situation arises where kids are left unsupervised, things will escalate. Then we’ll see if religious education really can't be scheduled as either the first or last period of the day. ☕

It truly never ceases to amaze me how some people can adopt such an aggressively hostile stance, fueled by nothing but pure resentment from the very start. I mean, what if religious studies just happens to be the first or last period on a student's schedule? Or what if there is simply a break in the curriculum where no "controversial situation" even occurs? Who are we supposed to drag in for an investigation then, just so certain agitators can gloat about escalating tensions in a school where, we would like to believe, most people are doing their absolute best to foster a positive environment for everyone? Honestly, the majority of parents reacting to this topic remind me of those old fables where the crowd just screams, "The wolf is coming, the wolf is coming!" except they are practically begging for the chaos to happen...
For years now, religious education has occupied its space within our schools quite decorously, without any significant incidents to speak of. Exceptions are incredibly rare and are handled on a case-by-case basis, much like any other matter involving a small minority. 🤷

Nancy Kelly31 said:It truly never ceases to amaze me how some people can adopt such an aggressively hostile stance, fueled by nothing but pure resentment from the very start. I mean, what if religious studies just happens to be the first or last period on a student's schedule? Or what if there is simply a break in the curriculum where no "controversial situation" even occurs? Who are we supposed to drag in for an investigation then, just so certain agitators can gloat about escalating tensions in a school where, we would like to believe, most people are doing their absolute best to foster a positive environment for everyone? Honestly, the majority of parents reacting to this topic remind me of those old fables where the crowd just screams, "The wolf is coming, the wolf is coming!" except they are practically begging for the chaos to happen...
For years now, religious education has occupied its space within our schools quite decorously, without any significant incidents to speak of. Exceptions are incredibly rare and are handled on a case-by-case basis, much like any other matter involving a small minority. 🤷

It feels like you're trying to burn every single bridge between believers and non-believers, not to mention tearing down the whole idea of equality.

All it takes is one single incident to start a massive outcry, especially since we're talking about kids here—children who have been thrown into this, who can't fight back or defend themselves.

They don't need these divisions. They shouldn't be taught to fear the majority. They deserve to be treated equally within the system, yet having religious studies in school just creates inequality.

Honestly, I don't get why everyone is making such a massive deal over a single period.

If religion class is just another slot in the schedule, kids can always study something else—especially if they have a big test coming up in a different subject. It’s not like every single grade level has that class during first or last period anyway, right?

Moving it to the afternoon shift? That sounds completely nonsensical to me.

And let’s be real: most issues or incidents at school have absolutely nothing to do with religious studies; they're about student behavior. Period.
-The "troublemakers"- In my school, the truly problematic ones were actually the math teachers and those instructors who gave more than half the class a failing grade. Yet, nobody ever started a petition to get them fired, even though they were genuinely unhinged and constantly dodging their responsibilities.

Anyway, all this drama over religion class... meanwhile, I'm standing in the hallway trying to read, study, or finish homework that I won't even have to touch once I get home.

I find myself reflecting on the recent observations shared by the community, particularly those sentiments expressed regarding our current direction... It seems that many of us are grappling with the same underlying complexities, though we often approach them from such vastly different vantage points. One cannot help but wonder if there is a singular truth to be found amidst all this discourse, or if we are simply destined to navigate these swirling currents of opinion indefinitely...

I have been reflecting quite deeply on the recent discussions regarding our community standards, and I find myself wondering if we might benefit from a more structured approach to how we moderate these digital spaces... It seems to me that while the intention behind most interventions is undoubtedly well-meaning, there is often a subtle lack of consistency that can leave some members feeling somewhat adrift in the sea of discourse... Perhaps, if we were to implement a more formalized set of guidelines, similar to those used by major institutions like Harvard or even large corporations such as Microsoft, we could foster an environment that feels both secure and intellectually stimulating for everyone involved... I truly believe that with just a little more deliberation and a shared commitment to clarity, we could elevate the quality of our interactions to a much higher plane... kaže: It feels as though you are making a conscious effort to burn every bridge that remains between believers and non-believers, effectively dismantling the very foundation of equality itself... It only takes a single instance to stir one's indignation to the highest degree, particularly when the subject at hand involves our children... those who have been cast into such circumstances without any means to fight back or defend themselves... They don't need to be divided, nor should they be subjected to the tyranny of the majority; they have an inherent right to be treated equally within the system, yet religious education in our schools continues to breed inequality...

It seems to me that most of the participants in this debate who are voicing such intense opposition to religious education don't actually have a single concrete case to point to... We are essentially just sitting here debating endless "what if" scenarios and hypothetical situations...
And meanwhile, the children are off to school with nothing but bright smiles on their faces, completely unbothered by the petty little dramas unfolding over on some random internet forum... 🤷

You know what the most interesting thing is?
The kids themselves don't care one bit about having religious education classes at school. Not the ones attending them, and certainly not the ones whose parents opt them out. Not at all.

The only people who seem to have a problem with religious studies in schools are the parents of the children who don't attend these optional classes. They act like it's some massive tragedy or a deep trauma if their child spends an hour sitting in the library reading something or just hanging out on a computer.
Aargh, as if that will tragically derail their development in this world full of pink sunshine and rainbows.🙂
I haven’t heard any kid coming forward to loudly claim they are being discriminated against, bullied, or neglected just because they aren't going to religion class. It’s really just that it bothers their parents... the kids aren't whining about being forced into it.
It's the neoliberal parents who are whining.
As a "trauma," it’s apparently a disaster if a child gets to head home early (presumably because tennis practice isn't until 6 PM) or if they pick up a book.
Oh, and heaven forbid they socialize a little with classmates at school or chat outside during recess... yikes.
Horror!
Not a single child has claimed they would much rather spend those hours grinding through physics or extra math drills.
No, it's just the parents—specifically the parents whose kids don't go to religion class—who think it's a waste of time.😵
They want to decide for everyone, attempting to dictate where children should be enrolled based on the free will of other parents who choose to have their kids attend religious studies. Give me a break!
It's the absurdity of neoliberal bullsh— Pardon me. Trying to dictate someone else's free choice just because you personally don't like it.😁
You don't want your kid in religion class? Fine... then don't send them. It's not mandatory.
Foreign language requirements aren't mandatory either, yet nobody goes on a crusade about discriminating against kids who don't want to take them. Nobody asks via Contra or B.A.B.A. where the rest of the kids are being discriminated against while George is busy learning German. They don't worry if or how much their little Steffek is suffering because he isn't conjugating verbs, but is instead resting his brain from studying 90% useless information.
Fair enough?

Meanwhile, those same people who nitpick over religious education try to force their kids to spend that hour studying partisan history, queer culture, algorithms, or some endless list of activities they cram them into without even asking:"Would you really, truly want to play the cello or study Japanese on Tuesdays and Thursdays, or are you doing this just to please Mommy and Daddy? Honey, what would you actually do in your free time? Play outside, stay in with Barbies, play video games, or just bounce a tennis ball around?"
Ask your kids honestly. Tell them they can stay home if they don't want to go anymore and that there won't be any trouble. Show them some respect, be democratic, and then you'll see what the kids actually say. Cello, German lessons, or playing?
😉
Let's run a poll on how many kids are pushed into various extracurriculars just so parents can prove to themselves that their kids are super smart and they are super elite parents.
Let's run a poll on what those kids actually think about the parents forcing them into rigid schedules of tennis, cello, language lessons, swimming, ballet, karate, and so on.
Sound good?☕
Let the kids decide for themselves whether they’d rather play the cello or attend religion class. I mean, since we are *so* liberal and care *so* deeply about children's rights and our own kids.
See you tomorrow for coffee.

That is a truly insightful perspective on this current topic. Furthermore, one must consider that the individual is a religious studies teacher... which likely means they possess a much deeper understanding of these complexities than any of us here. 🤷

Nancy Kelly31 said:That is a truly insightful perspective on this current topic. Furthermore, one must consider that the individual is a religious studies teacher... which likely means they possess a much deeper understanding of these complexities than any of us here. 🤷

Are you serious? Bitmo?

Is that really your argument?

Henry Lopez10, sorry, but you are completely missing the point here... Just think about a first grader being left all by themselves. Think about the fact that a second language is offered as an elective in a way where nobody even shows up to the hallway. And honestly, think about the fact that we are all footing the bill for a theology teacher's hour when half the kids aren't even in the room.

I wonder if it might have been more appropriate for me to include a direct link to his personal blog, which is referenced in the article and serves as the original home for this text... 🤷

http://www.rijecanin.com/2015/11/07/...nauk-iz-skola/

Nancy Kelly31 said:I wonder if it might have been more appropriate for me to include a direct link to his personal blog, which is referenced in the article and serves as the original home for this text... 🤷

http://www.rijecanin.com/2015/11/07/...nauk-iz-skola/

Nah,

At that point, I find myself truly at a loss for words... 🤷 Goodnight...

Robert Rodriguez9 It’s not about kids doing something else during religious studies; it’s the lack of supervision that’s the issue. We’ve already seen this play out before—some school had students who weren't in religion class practicing math with their teacher instead, and suddenly parents of the religious students were up in arms because they felt their kids were being left behind. All that leaves the other kids with is staring at a wall or wandering off somewhere they shouldn't be.