Religion classes in school - Megathread

Let’s get back to the main point here. We aren't going to sit around debating abortion all day. Everyone needs to realize that a person of faith follows their own set of principles, but those principles don't suddenly apply to everyone else just because they aren't part of that same faith.

Look, you’re free as an American to teach your kids whatever values you want and preach your beliefs at church socials. But you aren't free to force some hypothetical moral code on someone else when we're talking about fundamental worldviews.

If we actually want to teach our kids about tolerance, we have to start by protecting the rights of those who are in the minority.

brisknomad13 said:Fair point—you can't really put religion in the same box as math or history. Sure, it’s technically on the school schedule, but it goes way deeper than that. Its whole purpose is about connecting people to the Lord—students, parents, teachers, and the whole church community all in one go.

It’s got this depth that’s way more powerful than any individual's attempt to toss aside the human spirit and its specific Christian search for meaning.

Obviously, history shows us that totalitarian systems will always try to force out whatever they don't like, but when it comes to faith, that’s a much tougher nut to crack. It's practically impossible because we're talking about an existential reality, not just some textbook curriculum.

(The critics who actually get this realize they're biting off way more than they can chew)

Don't sweat it. People have been swallowing bullshit in the name of the Lord over this exact subject for twenty-five years now. Anyone here shouting His name in vain is a hundred times smaller than the person clinging to Him, because at least the one holding on has a real relationship with Him, rather than just some personal moral maxim they've extracted from Him.

You clearly haven't spent enough time digging through philosophical or spiritual literature. I hold my colleagues from the Society of Jesus in extremely high regard; you should try attending a lecture or something to get a better handle on ontological categories. Right now, your posts read like the dismissive sneers of some amateur philosopher who hasn't even cracked a book by Aquinas.

silentraven6 said:Let’s get back to the main point here. We aren't going to sit around debating abortion all day. Everyone needs to realize that a person of faith follows their own set of principles, but those principles don't suddenly apply to everyone else just because they aren't part of that same faith.

Look, you’re free as an American to teach your kids whatever values you want and preach your beliefs at church socials. But you aren't free to force some hypothetical moral code on someone else when we're talking about fundamental worldviews.

If we actually want to teach our kids about tolerance, we have to start by protecting the rights of those who are in the minority.

Forget abortion—let's talk about ego instead and maybe do some soul-searching regarding our own issues. 🙄 You spend a ton of time criticizing everyone else, yet you’re pretty weak at moderating when people similar to you commit actual offenses.

Is there really no other way to teach tolerance?

silentraven6 said:Don't sweat it. People have been swallowing bullshit in the name of the Lord over this exact subject for twenty-five years now. Anyone here shouting His name in vain is a hundred times smaller than the person clinging to Him, because at least the one holding on has a real relationship with Him, rather than just some personal moral maxim they've extracted from Him.

You clearly haven't spent enough time digging through philosophical or spiritual literature. I hold my colleagues from the Society of Jesus in extremely high regard; you should try attending a lecture or something to get a better handle on ontological categories. Right now, your posts read like the dismissive sneers of some amateur philosopher who hasn't even cracked a book by Aquinas.

You're preaching a bit too much.

brisknomad13 said:Fair point—you can't really put religion in the same box as math or history. Sure, it’s technically on the school schedule, but it goes way deeper than that. Its whole purpose is about connecting people to the Lord—students, parents, teachers, and the whole church community all in one go.

It’s got this depth that’s way more powerful than any individual's attempt to toss aside the human spirit and its specific Christian search for meaning.

Obviously, history shows us that totalitarian systems will always try to force out whatever they don't like, but when it comes to faith, that’s a much tougher nut to crack. It's practically impossible because we're talking about an existential reality, not just some textbook curriculum.

(The critics who actually get this realize they're biting off way more than they can chew)

The people opposing religious education on this topic are usually parents who don't want their kids attending classes at school. Some are believers themselves but aren't happy with how faith is presented in the school system—feeling it's been reduced to just another way to boost a GPA or an easy "A." Others might belong to different faiths since only Catholic instruction is available, or they could simply be atheists or agnostics.

I honestly find it hard to understand why some believers feel the need for their child to spend those extra two hours in a classroom for religious ed. Faith is something you live out; it's primarily passed down within the family. If that foundation isn't laid at home, I doubt two hours a week at school can make much of a difference. In my experience, those two hours might be better spent letting kids catch up on sleep (which is so vital for brain development!), practicing reading, working on math, learning a second language, or just running around outside in the fresh air. Getting that movement is so important for health, concentration, physical fitness, and even spiritual well-being.

silentraven6 said:Let’s get back to the main point here. We aren't going to sit around debating abortion all day. Everyone needs to realize that a person of faith follows their own set of principles, but those principles don't suddenly apply to everyone else just because they aren't part of that same faith.

Look, you’re free as an American to teach your kids whatever values you want and preach your beliefs at church socials. But you aren't free to force some hypothetical moral code on someone else when we're talking about fundamental worldviews.

If we actually want to teach our kids about tolerance, we have to start by protecting the rights of those who are in the minority.

Yeah, we’re talking about religious education in a combined thread, so if abortion comes up because someone brought it up based on old debates, I don't see the issue with me addressing it from a theological standpoint.

Anyway, let's move on.

Catholicism or any other faith isn't "imposed"—parents choose it. Kids don't have to go.

Discussing these topics or religious doctrines isn't the same thing as forcing your worldview or maxims on people.

It's just that this kind of content isn't exactly popular, so people try to label it as preaching or imposing.

If someone is actually interested in religious studies—both the facts and the relationships involved—they can always get an answer.

brisknomad13 said:Fair point—you can't really put religion in the same box as math or history. Sure, it’s technically on the school schedule, but it goes way deeper than that. Its whole purpose is about connecting people to the Lord—students, parents, teachers, and the whole church community all in one go.

It’s got this depth that’s way more powerful than any individual's attempt to toss aside the human spirit and its specific Christian search for meaning.

Obviously, history shows us that totalitarian systems will always try to force out whatever they don't like, but when it comes to faith, that’s a much tougher nut to crack. It's practically impossible because we're talking about an existential reality, not just some textbook curriculum.

(The critics who actually get this realize they're biting off way more than they can chew)

Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; (Matt. 23:8)

(...) shepherd the flock of God that has been entrusted to you, watch over it – (...) not as masters over those entrusted to you, but as examples to the flock. (1 Pet 5)

Honestly, please, don't mention it. 🙂

silentraven6 said:Don't sweat it. People have been swallowing bullshit in the name of the Lord over this exact subject for twenty-five years now. Anyone here shouting His name in vain is a hundred times smaller than the person clinging to Him, because at least the one holding on has a real relationship with Him, rather than just some personal moral maxim they've extracted from Him.

You clearly haven't spent enough time digging through philosophical or spiritual literature. I hold my colleagues from the Society of Jesus in extremely high regard; you should try attending a lecture or something to get a better handle on ontological categories. Right now, your posts read like the dismissive sneers of some amateur philosopher who hasn't even cracked a book by Aquinas.

I haven't been on this forum for even a day and I'm already over these tired jokes.

Look, let's get back to the point. It's not about me. It's about what we're actually talking about here.

Faith isn't just some solo spiritual thing. It's social. People exist in families and communities, not just in their own heads.

Religious expression is totally protected by the Constitution, whether someone does it through private prayer or through religious education classes in school. In the US, we have all sorts of different denominations, and honestly, groups like the local Islamic community are pretty happy with how things are set up here.

We’re still a young nation, just finding our footing as a free society. Having different faiths is actually a strength, and I honestly think dialogue and tolerance should be the whole mission for any modern school.

wanderingbadger44 said:Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; (Matt. 23:8)

(...) shepherd the flock of God that has been entrusted to you, watch over it – (...) not as masters over those entrusted to you, but as examples to the flock. (1 Pet 5)

Honestly, please, don't mention it. 🙂

You're acting all high and mighty by judging everyone else and pointing out their sins. Even brisknomad13 tried her best to explain how religious education actually works.

brisknomad13 said:Yeah, we’re talking about religious education in a combined thread, so if abortion comes up because someone brought it up based on old debates, I don't see the issue with me addressing it from a theological standpoint.

Anyway, let's move on.

Catholicism or any other faith isn't "imposed"—parents choose it. Kids don't have to go.

Discussing these topics or religious doctrines isn't the same thing as forcing your worldview or maxims on people.

It's just that this kind of content isn't exactly popular, so people try to label it as preaching or imposing.

If someone is actually interested in religious studies—both the facts and the relationships involved—they can always get an answer.

🤣

Do you really think I have a memory like that? Look, I'm not going to sit here and claim you made it up; it’s entirely possible that conversation happened.

But that isn't why I brought up the topic of abortion.

My point was actually to show you that the legal precedent you were using to justify special privileges for religious studies is a pretty shaky foundation. You asserted quite boldly that religious education deserves its status simply because the law allows it, so I gently pointed out that the same legal framework also permits abortion. In that specific instance, it seems you aren't nearly as keen on following the letter of the law.

I am sorry for circling back to this tangent, as it really isn't the heart of our discussion, but I felt I had to set the record straight regarding what you said. I truly don't recall things that way.

Anyway, I won't bring it up again. 🙂

Jacob Lewis5 said:You're acting all high and mighty by judging everyone else and pointing out their sins. Even brisknomad13 tried her best to explain how religious education actually works.

Honestly, I don't really care; what's being quoted here doesn't hold any weight over me. 🥳 I'm not a believer anymore—not after everything. To be fair, people like you and brisknomad13 are a big part of why I walked away.

wanderingbadger44 said:Honestly, I don't really care; what's being quoted here doesn't hold any weight over me. 🥳 I'm not a believer anymore—not after everything. To be fair, people like you and brisknomad13 are a big part of why I walked away.

Look, having a Christian value system isn't mandatory, but having *any* values at all is.
It doesn't matter if you don't believe, but it matters when you start acting smug, accusatory, or just plain provocative... honestly, it's probably better if you aren't a believer anyway. We already have a terrible reputation to protect, and we definitely don't need more bad PR from people like you.

Why are you panicking? We aren't going to see World War III break out.

I really hope we aren't the unlucky generation stuck holding the bag when some massive, final catastrophe actually goes down.

Don't freak out on us, man.

wanderingbadger44 said:Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; (Matt. 23:8)

(...) shepherd the flock of God that has been entrusted to you, watch over it – (...) not as masters over those entrusted to you, but as examples to the flock. (1 Pet 5)

Honestly, please, don't mention it. 🙂

Look, being "humbled" in a religious sense isn't what I'm talking about when I bring up Catholic doctrine as a school subject. That’s a different ballgame.

I'm talking about the deep stuff—how you actually live your life, from how you think and feel to the spiritual side that carries you through everything... whether you choose to stand by your values or just screw them up.

If you want to dissect Bible verses, maybe check out the Religion PDF instead.

wanderingbadger44 said:🤣

Do you really think I have a memory like that? Look, I'm not going to sit here and claim you made it up; it’s entirely possible that conversation happened.

But that isn't why I brought up the topic of abortion.

My point was actually to show you that the legal precedent you were using to justify special privileges for religious studies is a pretty shaky foundation. You asserted quite boldly that religious education deserves its status simply because the law allows it, so I gently pointed out that the same legal framework also permits abortion. In that specific instance, it seems you aren't nearly as keen on following the letter of the law.

I am sorry for circling back to this tangent, as it really isn't the heart of our discussion, but I felt I had to set the record straight regarding what you said. I truly don't recall things that way.

Anyway, I won't bring it up again. 🙂

Look, I respect the law, and I respect women who make that choice, but personally? I still see it as a heavy moral sin.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Forget abortion—let's talk about ego instead and maybe do some soul-searching regarding our own issues. 🙄 You spend a ton of time criticizing everyone else, yet you’re pretty weak at moderating when people similar to you commit actual offenses.

Is there really no other way to teach tolerance?

Just a Classic Catholic mindset of following the pack... being sheep in the truest sense of the word.

Who’s really to blame if you can't think for yourself?

Just because I’m a moderator doesn't mean I don't have a brain. It’s just that some topics require less mental heavy lifting, making them easier to moderate. Then there are those topics where you actually have to use your head because they matter to you—where you’re trying to change the world through a single post. You have to love Christ, man... love Him deeply, painfully, and steadily for 31 years of life, 13 of which are spent right here posting.

When I was a little girl, and then as I grew up, I never dreamed of becoming a teacher. I dreamed of being a nun.

But Nasrec played a wild card on me, and life turned me into a parent instead.

I truly mean this... it's hard to be this honest without coming across as pathetic or even psychotic, but is there really anything rational about faith?

brisknomad13 said:Fair point—you can't really put religion in the same box as math or history. Sure, it’s technically on the school schedule, but it goes way deeper than that. Its whole purpose is about connecting people to the Lord—students, parents, teachers, and the whole church community all in one go.

It’s got this depth that’s way more powerful than any individual's attempt to toss aside the human spirit and its specific Christian search for meaning.

Obviously, history shows us that totalitarian systems will always try to force out whatever they don't like, but when it comes to faith, that’s a much tougher nut to crack. It's practically impossible because we're talking about an existential reality, not just some textbook curriculum.

(The critics who actually get this realize they're biting off way more than they can chew)

From Thief, I haven't felt this nauseated reading a piece of text since... well, since reading your last post.

brighteagle86 said:From Thief, I haven't felt this nauseated reading a piece of text since... well, since reading your last post.

So it's a hit because you can't really hide how intense those physical sensations feel, especially when we're talking about Catholic doctrine.

Nah, for a Christian, this is just a sign that things are going exactly how Jesus said they would.

brisknomad13 said:As a believer, I think this is great news. Honestly, tons of parents are still signing their kids up for religion classes.
And it’s not just that—we’re seeing more Catholic elementary schools, prestigious Salesian high schools, even preschools popping up everywhere. Plus, the Catholic University of America is already right here.

With the new curriculum reforms, religious education isn't being touched; they aren't forcing those hours into some big shared bucket.

So yeah, religion is thriving. It would only actually die out in schools if parents stopped enrolling their kids.

People who find any kind of religious instruction vulgar are just going to have to deal with it, since they're in the minority.
If they ever become the majority, hey, I’ll respect whatever laws society decides to pass.

When was the last time you actually went to Mass for First Communicants?
How many parents actually showed up with their kids?...
What if they just moved religion class straight into the church? Imagine how much easier life would be...
When did the majority even decide on religious studies in schools...?
Persephone gave you a solid example—so what exactly is a midnight Mass?

A kid who learns their faith at home from their parents already knows what a dawn is...
Kids signed up for religion class... what happens if I don't enroll them? What'll Grandma Dawn say if I skip it? Honestly, whatever, let them go. I went when I was a kid and nothing bad happened... they don't even know. It's not like their morning prayer is some essential part of living a faithful life anyway...

You're bringing up Halloween and all those other weird traditions...
So you can't even explain to your kid why you guys don't celebrate it?
If you don't want it and you can't handle it, why on earth would you think anyone else wants kids sitting around waiting for a blessing over the bread...

If we go to church for a blessing at the start of the school year or to give thanks when things wrap up, why wouldn't we do the same for a loaf of bread?
Can I just have a harvest festival at school that doesn't involve some priest?

We claim to be over 80% Catholic, yet the churches are basically empty. Common sense? We're losing that bit by bit. Kids don't even know what a prayer looks like anymore... Confirmation is just an excuse for me to get an iPhone6+... And I only bother showing up to church when I'm getting married because I don't want my grandma judging me if I just go to the courthouse...
We want all the freedom in the world for ourselves, but the second someone else asks for it? Suddenly we're against it. We’ve basically turned into a bunch of gatekeepers... just like those stubborn folks over in the Midwest.

Still haven't heard a single believer say what would actually happen to religious ed if it moved back into the church... Not a peep about how many kids would even show up to class if that happened...

So you're claiming kids these days are all turning conservative? Where exactly are you seeing that? On your Facebook feed where you only follow people who agree with you?...
The upcoming lineup of youth leaders for the local parish programs here in Chicago... it’s gonna be a mess. You’ve basically got two groups. One side just blindly follows whatever their parents or teachers say without thinking for themselves. The other side? Their vocabulary is nothing but profanity, sports rants, and total political nonsense. It’s gonna be interesting watching this year unfold...

So I was talking about this religious studies teacher at my local elementary school—part of my parish, right? Anyway, he went totally ballistic on their Facebook page, picking fights with everyone because he just couldn't wrap his head around the fact that some of his own colleagues actually believe in evolution. He’s out here teaching that Eve came from Adam's rib, and he loses it if you don't buy into that. Like, seriously... you really want your kid learning from someone like that?

All this is just more reason to cut religion classes out of schools. And I'm not even talking about atheist arguments—those people can find plenty of reasons to complain on their own. I’m talking about the religious parents who actually want their kids in those classes because they grew up with them...
Alright, let's hear it. Lay out your arguments for those questions from earlier...
A football team isn't gonna win any championships if the entire fifth-grade class shows up to practice just to mess around... same thing goes for religion class. It’s impossible to get through the material if you've got a bunch of kids who couldn't care less about being there. And honestly? It doesn't matter what happens in the classroom if they aren't getting any support or foundation at home...

Edit: oh, please... explain how it’s somehow "fair" that you, as a Catholic, decide not to give money to "some feminist books," yet you think it's totally fine for an atheist, agnostic, Adventist, or Buddhist to have their tax dollars funneled straight into your church?

😵 😵 😵

I don't really get why everyone is trying so hard. It just feels pointless. You can't convince a dishwasher to actually wash the dishes, or expect it to act with any kind of empathy.