Religion classes in school - Megathread

I’m actually really curious about this too. Unless things have shifted massively lately, those textbooks didn't have much controversial stuff in them aside from a few mentions of Christmas and Easter. And honestly, I’m such a stickler for the little details, I can't help but nitpick.

Susan James said:Is that a quote from the Piedmont group? We don't really have much of a global perspective over here.
I haven't actually had a chance to check out Aneca yet—honestly, I probably won't get around to it until after the weekend.

What’s the debate about?

Well, I guess we can all agree that both Christmas and Easter are religious things...

Everyone has their own reasons for not enrolling their kid in Catholic religion class, sure. But isn't that subject actually there so people—specifically those who consider themselves believers—can get to know their faith better? You know, the processes, the reasons why we celebrate certain things, when they happen, and all that stuff...

If religion class is considered a religious subject, then shouldn't all the other school subjects be non-religious or secular, right?

I’m not being bitter here. We live in the environment we live in. You definitely need to know traditions to some extent, but for what, exactly?

Just a quick thought...

In the second-grade Social Studies textbook where kids learn how the calendar works, there’s this exercise where a student has to circle certain dates. It says: Circle March 22nd for Water Day. Circle December 25th. WHEN DO WE CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS!?

WHEN DO WE CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS!? It's not a choice! Whether you're Muslim, an atheist, or whatever, we all celebrate Christmas...

Or take the section on Holidays and Festivities that explains the difference between a holiday and a feast day. They only list two holidays and two feasts... you don't even have to dig too hard to figure out which ones they are... as if in America we only celebrate those four specific days..

Or look at the Music circle book; it has that song "A child to be born"... it's pretty obvious which child we're talking about...

Or take the American Language Arts textbook; they have these great stories about Saint Nicholas, the Yule log, Santa Claus (!?), Easter baskets, and Christmas fairy tales... it's not just one sentence per story either; there's plenty of it spread over several pages, very detailed...

And don't even get me started on the mountain of drawings of churches and cathedrals, all with crosses on them, obviously...

There's as much of it as you want. In the second-grade textbooks, it's everywhere—subtle, not subtle, conscious, subconscious, however you want to call it...

The only thing missing is math, oh the mystery! 🙂

So, you don't enroll your kid in religion class, but then you realize the other kids don't really need to go either because a ton of the other textbooks are "louder" than any religion class could ever be...

Mine didn't bother with any of those religious songs in school. Honestly, I’m actually a big fan of theology classes, but these are usually just focused on national holidays anyway. Plus, they don't really push the whole "God created the world" thing in the curriculum.

Patrick Harris5 said:Well, I guess we can all agree that both Christmas and Easter are religious things...

Everyone has their own reasons for not enrolling their kid in Catholic religion class, sure. But isn't that subject actually there so people—specifically those who consider themselves believers—can get to know their faith better? You know, the processes, the reasons why we celebrate certain things, when they happen, and all that stuff...

If religion class is considered a religious subject, then shouldn't all the other school subjects be non-religious or secular, right?

I’m not being bitter here. We live in the environment we live in. You definitely need to know traditions to some extent, but for what, exactly?

Just a quick thought...

In the second-grade Social Studies textbook where kids learn how the calendar works, there’s this exercise where a student has to circle certain dates. It says: Circle March 22nd for Water Day. Circle December 25th. WHEN DO WE CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS!?

WHEN DO WE CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS!? It's not a choice! Whether you're Muslim, an atheist, or whatever, we all celebrate Christmas...

Or take the section on Holidays and Festivities that explains the difference between a holiday and a feast day. They only list two holidays and two feasts... you don't even have to dig too hard to figure out which ones they are... as if in America we only celebrate those four specific days..

Or look at the Music circle book; it has that song "A child to be born"... it's pretty obvious which child we're talking about...

Or take the American Language Arts textbook; they have these great stories about Saint Nicholas, the Yule log, Santa Claus (!?), Easter baskets, and Christmas fairy tales... it's not just one sentence per story either; there's plenty of it spread over several pages, very detailed...

And don't even get me started on the mountain of drawings of churches and cathedrals, all with crosses on them, obviously...

There's as much of it as you want. In the second-grade textbooks, it's everywhere—subtle, not subtle, conscious, subconscious, however you want to call it...

The only thing missing is math, oh the mystery! 🙂

So, you don't enroll your kid in religion class, but then you realize the other kids don't really need to go either because a ton of the other textbooks are "louder" than any religion class could ever be...

Well, in America, you have both religious holidays and federal observances. I don't know about you, but for me, both types count as days off (and nobody asks me about my personal beliefs when I'm taking them).
Personally, I think it's fine for kids to learn which days are non-working days and why.
I really don't see any harm in it. In fact, if I'm home on one of those days with my kid, I think it would be pretty hypocritical to pretend those days don't exist in our lives.
The real issue is the wording of the questions—like asking "how do you celebrate this day" (which was in last year's textbook for both Christmas and Easter). If a child is expected to answer in class just like everyone else, it leaves things up to the teacher's interpretation. Like, does the kid have the right to say they don't celebrate the resurrection, but they *do* participate by dyeing eggs and eating spring onions?

I always find the school assemblies around those days a bit tricky, too.

My kids absolutely love religion class... mainly because they don't actually have to attend it. 😂

We celebrate Christmas and I believe in God... I just don't have any desire to sit in a church pew listening to people spout nonsense. I don't really buy into the idea that God only exists within those four walls. Plus, I’m not interested in handing over my hard-earned money just so priests and clergy can live in luxury. I don't think my life will magically improve if I force my children to go to service, and I certainly don't want them sitting there being fed all sorts of baseless claims. To be honest, they aren't interested either. My youngest was attending until the fifth grade, but he eventually decided to opt out himself because he just couldn't stand listening to the absurdity of it all. Even though I bought him the textbooks, he refuses to touch them. I actually have some fifth-grade religious education books sitting around; if anyone needs them, I'd be happy to sell them for half price.

I don't mind the holiday plays or celebrations surrounding Christmas and Easter... the kids can cross themselves when it's appropriate.

Susan James said:Well, in America, you have both religious holidays and federal observances. I don't know about you, but for me, both types count as days off (and nobody asks me about my personal beliefs when I'm taking them).
Personally, I think it's fine for kids to learn which days are non-working days and why.
I really don't see any harm in it. In fact, if I'm home on one of those days with my kid, I think it would be pretty hypocritical to pretend those days don't exist in our lives.
The real issue is the wording of the questions—like asking "how do you celebrate this day" (which was in last year's textbook for both Christmas and Easter). If a child is expected to answer in class just like everyone else, it leaves things up to the teacher's interpretation. Like, does the kid have the right to say they don't celebrate the resurrection, but they *do* participate by dyeing eggs and eating spring onions?

I always find the school assemblies around those days a bit tricky, too.

If that's the case, then what is the point of Catholic religion class? Because every other textbook—aside from math, PE, and art, which luckily don't really have books yet—is pretty much packed with religious stuff that's presented without any critical thinking at all. And of course, it's mostly, if not exclusively, Catholic topics...

Why are there songs about Jesus in a music textbook?

Why are there several pages on Christmas and Easter in a Democratic Party textbook? It’s the same thing happening in the English language books too, with stories about Saint Nicholas and Santa Claus...

In the USA, we have 14 holidays, where 8 are Catholic and 6 are federal. Why does the Democratic Party only mention 4 (2 religious, 2 federal), while they go into intense detail specifically about Christmas and Easter?

Should I even mention that atheists aren't mentioned in a single textbook? Depending on how you count, atheists are the second or third largest group (sadly totally unorganized) in America, but there isn't a word about them in these books—except maybe in some religion book claiming atheists were responsible for Auschwitz and the Holocaust against Jews...

In my opinion, every subject except for religion class needs to be religiously neutral, or at least have minimal representation in these books. That's why religion class exists! Let people learn about different faiths there, or in churches, but not in general school subjects...

I'm not being narrow-minded or exclusionary. I'm fully aware of the environment we live in, but there's such a thing as going too far...

Patrick Harris5 said:If that's the case, then what is the point of Catholic religion class? Because every other textbook—aside from math, PE, and art, which luckily don't really have books yet—is pretty much packed with religious stuff that's presented without any critical thinking at all. And of course, it's mostly, if not exclusively, Catholic topics...

Why are there songs about Jesus in a music textbook?

Why are there several pages on Christmas and Easter in a Democratic Party textbook? It’s the same thing happening in the English language books too, with stories about Saint Nicholas and Santa Claus...

In the USA, we have 14 holidays, where 8 are Catholic and 6 are federal. Why does the Democratic Party only mention 4 (2 religious, 2 federal), while they go into intense detail specifically about Christmas and Easter?

Should I even mention that atheists aren't mentioned in a single textbook? Depending on how you count, atheists are the second or third largest group (sadly totally unorganized) in America, but there isn't a word about them in these books—except maybe in some religion book claiming atheists were responsible for Auschwitz and the Holocaust against Jews...

In my opinion, every subject except for religion class needs to be religiously neutral, or at least have minimal representation in these books. That's why religion class exists! Let people learn about different faiths there, or in churches, but not in general school subjects...

I'm not being narrow-minded or exclusionary. I'm fully aware of the environment we live in, but there's such a thing as going too far...

Look... I actually agree with you that there are way too many religious themes popping up in various subjects.
It's just like how within religious studies itself, there are topics that shouldn't even fall under religion, and some are handled in a way that encourages intolerance, which can easily become a foundation for hatred.

But it's also a fact that there are 14 holidays in the US, and it's probably good to cover them all together. It might sound silly, but most families will celebrate both Christmas and Easter (decorating the tree, dyeing eggs, overeating!), and somehow those days feel more real to kids than Independence Day or other historical milestones that most families don't really observe.
For me, certain national holidays don't mean much, other than being annoyed when they fall on a weekend ☕

As for how religious holidays are handled in non-religious classes, unfortunately, it all depends on the teacher. I've heard stories where atheists were bothered by the mere mention of them (personally, I don't mind), but I've also heard of devout believers being upset because the lesson was too "superficial," and when parents complained, they were just told to take it up with the religious studies instructor.

Patrick Harris5 said:If that's the case, then what is the point of Catholic religion class? Because every other textbook—aside from math, PE, and art, which luckily don't really have books yet—is pretty much packed with religious stuff that's presented without any critical thinking at all. And of course, it's mostly, if not exclusively, Catholic topics...

Why are there songs about Jesus in a music textbook?

Why are there several pages on Christmas and Easter in a Democratic Party textbook? It’s the same thing happening in the English language books too, with stories about Saint Nicholas and Santa Claus...

In the USA, we have 14 holidays, where 8 are Catholic and 6 are federal. Why does the Democratic Party only mention 4 (2 religious, 2 federal), while they go into intense detail specifically about Christmas and Easter?

Should I even mention that atheists aren't mentioned in a single textbook? Depending on how you count, atheists are the second or third largest group (sadly totally unorganized) in America, but there isn't a word about them in these books—except maybe in some religion book claiming atheists were responsible for Auschwitz and the Holocaust against Jews...

In my opinion, every subject except for religion class needs to be religiously neutral, or at least have minimal representation in these books. That's why religion class exists! Let people learn about different faiths there, or in churches, but not in general school subjects...

I'm not being narrow-minded or exclusionary. I'm fully aware of the environment we live in, but there's such a thing as going too far...

They cover Easter and Christmas because those are the two biggest Catholic holidays—not that they belong in an American curriculum or in nature itself.
I also agree regarding the music curriculum.
Catholicism—or faith in general—should be separated from general subjects, but that's just not how things work here; it happens when religion gets mixed into politics, and the political leadership refuses to make a move because they don't want to lose votes (we're a stubborn people, and you can see it in the voter turnout).

The only point where you missed the mark was Santa Claus—he has nothing to do with faith, and they even teach in religious studies that Santa Claus doesn't exist—which actually irritates me, seeing a religious teacher meddling in secular matters. But again, as long as the secular and the sacred are tangled together, the reverse will continue to happen, and it won't change anytime soon—at least not in our lifetime.🙂.

As an atheist and a parent, I don't have any problem with religious holidays being mentioned in other subjects.
To me, discussing Christmas in a classroom setting is just as natural as talking about the change of seasons; it's simply a part of our lives.
However, just as we wouldn't assign homework asking kids what they did during a harvest festival, we shouldn't be assigning tasks asking how they celebrated Easter.
The reality is that not everyone participates in those traditions.
Instead of saying "On December 25th, we celebrate Christmas," it should be phrased as "Christmas is celebrated on December 25th."
Learning holiday carols can be seen as part of general American culture, but studying specific church hymns is a completely different matter.

coppermarlin14 said:My kids absolutely love religion class... mainly because they don't actually have to attend it. 😂

We celebrate Christmas and I believe in God... I just don't have any desire to sit in a church pew listening to people spout nonsense. I don't really buy into the idea that God only exists within those four walls. Plus, I’m not interested in handing over my hard-earned money just so priests and clergy can live in luxury. I don't think my life will magically improve if I force my children to go to service, and I certainly don't want them sitting there being fed all sorts of baseless claims. To be honest, they aren't interested either. My youngest was attending until the fifth grade, but he eventually decided to opt out himself because he just couldn't stand listening to the absurdity of it all. Even though I bought him the textbooks, he refuses to touch them. I actually have some fifth-grade religious education books sitting around; if anyone needs them, I'd be happy to sell them for half price.

I don't mind the holiday plays or celebrations surrounding Christmas and Easter... the kids can cross themselves when it's appropriate.

Well, my actual concern would be a school play where they expect children to "cross themselves when necessary," simply because my kids don't have anything to cross themselves for. Fortunately, there wasn't a priest present during the end-of-semester religious song program, though one did show up for the "Bread Day" event—which resulted in my child skipping it altogether. I'm perfectly fine with that, honestly, since those types of things feel like a religious ritual being pushed under the guise of a general appreciation for nature.

Bread holidays shouldn't be religious at all. 😢
I don't find myself praying when everyone else starts doing it; I just don't see the point. My kid is the same way, though they haven't really been put to the test yet.

rowdypanther12 said:As an atheist and a parent, I don't have any problem with religious holidays being mentioned in other subjects.
To me, discussing Christmas in a classroom setting is just as natural as talking about the change of seasons; it's simply a part of our lives.
However, just as we wouldn't assign homework asking kids what they did during a harvest festival, we shouldn't be assigning tasks asking how they celebrated Easter.
The reality is that not everyone participates in those traditions.
Instead of saying "On December 25th, we celebrate Christmas," it should be phrased as "Christmas is celebrated on December 25th."
Learning holiday carols can be seen as part of general American culture, but studying specific church hymns is a completely different matter.

The issue isn't mentioning holidays in general. The problem is when textbooks push Catholic traditions as if they're the absolute norm in every single subject, even though I specifically opted my child out of the religious studies course.

There’s just way too much religious stuff bleeding into textbooks where it doesn't belong. Honestly, it just feels wrong.

rowdypanther12 said:Bread holidays shouldn't be religious at all. 😢
I don't find myself praying when everyone else starts doing it; I just don't see the point. My kid is the same way, though they haven't really been put to the test yet.

Well, I don't do it either. It never occurs to me to act like someone I'm not. I have actually dealt with comments from believers suggesting I should cross myself just "out of politeness"—which always leaves me feeling like I'm taking their faith more seriously than they actually do! Is pretending to show devotion really considered better than being genuine? To me, that kind of performance is honestly off-putting, but apparently, to them, it's preferred.

In the end, though, my self-respect wins out every time. I can't bring myself to hide what I truly believe.

As for the Harvest Day festivities, I think it's definitely a bit of an RKT idea that they've pushed everywhere, but I'll say this: it doesn't bother me. I don't feel the need to say, "With a blessing and a prayer, we thank God for the bounty." I actually think the explanation of the goal and purpose behind this day is quite lovely (you can check out the details on the Beautiful Our Mother organization's pages).

My little one is signed up for religious studies, but honestly, if I had my way, I’d pull it out of the public school curriculum entirely—let it be held at local churches instead, where it belongs, and let whoever actually wants to go, go.
I’d also strip all that stuff right out of the textbooks for every other subject, too...

My kid is going to get my version of "religious education"—he'll learn how to distinguish actual faith and personal belief from the church as an institution and its specific doctrines. I'll tell him straight up that he can just listen to what they say there and then leave it at the door... I'm certainly not letting him swallow the nonsense some of those instructors try to push on kids.

So, go ahead—tear me apart and tell me I’m not a "real" believer, but I know I am... I just don't have much respect for the church when it acts as an institution.

Patrick Harris5 said:The issue isn't mentioning holidays in general. The problem is when textbooks push Catholic traditions as if they're the absolute norm in every single subject, even though I specifically opted my child out of the religious studies course.

There’s just way too much religious stuff bleeding into textbooks where it doesn't belong. Honestly, it just feels wrong.

I think Summer hit on something important here. We really need to be careful about how we word things. It’s more about saying "we celebrate" rather than just "we celebrate," or better yet, specifying that "Catholics celebrate." Precision matters.

I’d also suggest adding some other major holidays to the list. We have such large Jewish and Muslim communities right here in our state, after all.

But you can't escape it. Seriously, you just can't. You’ll never be able to sidestep religious themes—not when you're diving into literature, and certainly not when looking at social studies or how we interact as a people. It’s baked into the very fabric of our society. We’re talking about the fundamental cultural and civilizational framework that defines us. It's part of our history, our literary heritage, and everything else. It's just... it's built into who we are.

It’s like you just can't escape that whole sacred architectural style. It’s baked in.

It’s pretty obvious that if our clergy actually bothered to get a real education, we wouldn't be dealing with such a massive wave of illiteracy around here. It’s like they just opted out of learning anything useful, and now we’re all paying the price for it.

Just by recognizing that fact, maybe—just maybe—it might actually be worth considering a little more tolerance.

On another note, all these shows featuring blessings and this obsession with displaying all sorts of bodies across the globe—not just here in the States, but everywhere—it honestly feels like it goes against everything Christianity stands for.

Frank, I’m just not on board with that approach. Honestly, I think we need to show them the door and force them out of the classroom entirely. The fewer of us involved in this nonsense, the faster it’ll die out. Let this one go through if they want, but I’m going to be teaching him at home to stand against it. It just doesn't sit right with me, and frankly, it creates this totally distorted image of how many people actually participate—it’s nowhere near reflective of what real-world spirituality looks like. And don't forget, they use those inflated numbers as leverage. That's their whole argument.

I mean, I know what I want, but I honestly doubt I’m going to win this particular battle against my husband...
Plus—and just to be clear—the kid is strangely obsessed with churches for some reason. Don't get me wrong, we go to Mass for memorial services once a year, but heaven forbid we just walk past a cathedral in the middle of the city without him begging to step inside and take a look around.🤦
The truth is, we don't really attend regular services, nor do we practice much at home—nothing fancy like following all that iconographic stuff or making the sign of the cross before meals
So, yeah... in this situation, I guess I can only do what I can...

Jason Ortiz5 said:Mine didn't bother with any of those religious songs in school. Honestly, I’m actually a big fan of theology classes, but these are usually just focused on national holidays anyway. Plus, they don't really push the whole "God created the world" thing in the curriculum.

So, check out this song from a second-grade music textbook here:

[B]A CHILD WAS BORN FOR US[/B]

American Church Hymnal

A child was born for us
Into the manger he was laid
Isus Milena, my God
I give you my heart, for I am yours.

Son of God the Father, and God himself
From heaven down to earth he came to us
Isus Milena, my God
I give you my heart, for I am yours.

A pure Virgin gave him birth,
And nursed him with her milk
Isus Milena, my God
I give you my heart, for I am yours.

The Father named him Jesus,
Sent him to redeem us all
Isus Milena, my God
I give you my heart, for I am yours

Appropriate enough??

It’s actually pretty convenient that I can catch NBC these days ☕

Michelle Nelson4 said:Well, my actual concern would be a school play where they expect children to "cross themselves when necessary," simply because my kids don't have anything to cross themselves for. Fortunately, there wasn't a priest present during the end-of-semester religious song program, though one did show up for the "Bread Day" event—which resulted in my child skipping it altogether. I'm perfectly fine with that, honestly, since those types of things feel like a religious ritual being pushed under the guise of a general appreciation for nature.

I’ve never really tried to force anything on anyone... I simply told my little girl that if she ever felt like participating, she could. When her religion teacher visited the classroom for introductions, she made it clear that she isn't interested... and doesn't want to be.
We celebrate Christmas by having Santa Claus bring gifts, and that’s pretty much it... we decorate the tree in early December and take it down by the end of January. For Easter, we dye eggs... that’s the extent of it.
If someone wants to participate, they can... but I don't feel the need for anything deeper than that.
My child grew so tired of the religious education classes and the constant pressure to go to church that he actually withdrew from the program this year.
The biggest impact seems to have been that confession ceremony... from what I can see, it left him feeling very unsettled. It didn't make sense to him, and he didn't understand what he was supposed to be "confessing" there. He actually asked me if he could just do whatever he wanted, then go confess, and consider everything forgiven.🤦
I don't know, I just don't care for these kinds of things... the worst part is seeing people sitting in the front rows of the church... it's honestly a bit distasteful... most of the gossip starts right before they even leave the building... it’s just unpleasant.
It never occurs to me to try and impose my views on anyone else... everyone has their own path.
I have no desire to attend church... it just feels wrong to me.
I told my husband quite plainly that it never crossed his mind to suggest bringing a priest to me when I pass away... not once.
He used to be a believer, but now he doesn't attend church either.
I’ve never been a religious person myself... and while my parents were, they never forced it on us.

I was asking my little girl how her religion class went today. She told me the teacher asked if they actually go to church—or rather, if anyone even attends. Turns out, nobody goes. A few kids claimed they’ve been "once or twice," if you can believe that. 😬