Just a random thought from a nobody

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Honestly, if you ask me, there’s really no contest—it’s much better to be clean, happy, wealthy, attractive, and young. I mean, think about it. It beats being a complete fool, looking rough, living hand-to-mouth, feeling old, and dealing with constant health issues. Life is just... easier that way. Why would anyone choose the alternative? It’s common sense, really. 😲😁
There are certain things in this life where we can actually exert our own will—where we can grab the wheel and steer ourselves toward a specific outcome—and then there are other things that are just completely beyond our control, no matter how much we fight them. It’s one of those fundamental, frustrating realities of being alive. You can work your tail off, pour every ounce of energy into a goal, and still find yourself staring at a brick wall because some external force decided otherwise. It’s like trying to stop the tide with a plastic shovel. Some stuff is up to us, sure, but a lot of it? Not so much.

My late father used to have this one way of putting things—I can still hear him saying it—it was always something like, "We went out fishing all day and didn't catch a single thing." Just a simple, blunt truth, I suppose.
Look, let’s try to keep some perspective here—let's actually find something to be happy about. I mean, we could have been dealing with much worse. We could have caught a massive sea spider and let it sting us, just dancing around the boat in sheer agony. Or, better yet, the engine could have died on us entirely, leaving us to row for three hours straight. It reminds me of this one engineering student I knew back in the day—about twenty years ago, long before everyone had a smartphone glued to their hand. This poor kid ended up rowing for five hours because his diesel engine ran out of fuel and sucked in air. He actually had a spare gas can and a full set of wrenches with him, but the poor guy didn't realize he needed to loosen a specific part to prime the system manually. He knew *something* had to be done—he could feel it in his gut—but he had absolutely no clue about the actual sequence of events. Just total chaos.
And that right there—that pure, unadulterated ignorance—is exactly what cost him his physique. It’s frustrating, really. You see people walking into a gym like they own the place, thinking they can just wing it without understanding the basic mechanics of training, and then they wonder why they aren't seeing results after six months of grinding. I remember back when I first started hitting the weights in Chicago—I thought I knew everything too, just charging in blindly—and man, did my body pay the price for that ego. But this guy? He didn't even have the sense to check the fundamentals. It’s one thing to work hard, but if you're working hard in the wrong direction, you're basically just spinning your wheels. It's a waste of time, a waste of effort, and honestly, it's just painful to watch. 😁

If you see an injustice, you have a responsibility to try and set things right. Honestly, God isn't going to step in and fix it for you—that’s just not how it works. The real question is whether you’re going to take a stand through a hunger strike, or if you'll opt for a different approach altogether. For instance, something like this:

Better? Why exactly is it better? For whom? For what purpose? And from whose perspective are we looking at this?

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Honestly, if you ask me, there’s really no contest—it’s much better to be clean, happy, wealthy, attractive, and young. I mean, think about it. It beats being a complete fool, looking rough, living hand-to-mouth, feeling old, and dealing with constant health issues. Life is just... easier that way. Why would anyone choose the alternative? It’s common sense, really. 😲😁
There are certain things in this life where we can actually exert our own will—where we can grab the wheel and steer ourselves toward a specific outcome—and then there are other things that are just completely beyond our control, no matter how much we fight them. It’s one of those fundamental, frustrating realities of being alive. You can work your tail off, pour every ounce of energy into a goal, and still find yourself staring at a brick wall because some external force decided otherwise. It’s like trying to stop the tide with a plastic shovel. Some stuff is up to us, sure, but a lot of it? Not so much.

My late father used to have this one way of putting things—I can still hear him saying it—it was always something like, "We went out fishing all day and didn't catch a single thing." Just a simple, blunt truth, I suppose.
Look, let’s try to keep some perspective here—let's actually find something to be happy about. I mean, we could have been dealing with much worse. We could have caught a massive sea spider and let it sting us, just dancing around the boat in sheer agony. Or, better yet, the engine could have died on us entirely, leaving us to row for three hours straight. It reminds me of this one engineering student I knew back in the day—about twenty years ago, long before everyone had a smartphone glued to their hand. This poor kid ended up rowing for five hours because his diesel engine ran out of fuel and sucked in air. He actually had a spare gas can and a full set of wrenches with him, but the poor guy didn't realize he needed to loosen a specific part to prime the system manually. He knew *something* had to be done—he could feel it in his gut—but he had absolutely no clue about the actual sequence of events. Just total chaos.
And that right there—that pure, unadulterated ignorance—is exactly what cost him his physique. It’s frustrating, really. You see people walking into a gym like they own the place, thinking they can just wing it without understanding the basic mechanics of training, and then they wonder why they aren't seeing results after six months of grinding. I remember back when I first started hitting the weights in Chicago—I thought I knew everything too, just charging in blindly—and man, did my body pay the price for that ego. But this guy? He didn't even have the sense to check the fundamentals. It’s one thing to work hard, but if you're working hard in the wrong direction, you're basically just spinning your wheels. It's a waste of time, a waste of effort, and honestly, it's just painful to watch. 😁

If you see an injustice, you have a responsibility to try and set things right. Honestly, God isn't going to step in and fix it for you—that’s just not how it works. The real question is whether you’re going to take a stand through a hunger strike, or if you'll opt for a different approach altogether. For instance, something like this:

It is what it is—there’s really no way around it. You can't change the hand you're dealt, and there isn't much anyone can do to step in and fix things. At some point, you just have to accept it and move on. That's just how it goes.

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Honestly, if you ask me, there’s really no contest—it’s much better to be clean, happy, wealthy, attractive, and young. I mean, think about it. It beats being a complete fool, looking rough, living hand-to-mouth, feeling old, and dealing with constant health issues. Life is just... easier that way. Why would anyone choose the alternative? It’s common sense, really. 😲😁
There are certain things in this life where we can actually exert our own will—where we can grab the wheel and steer ourselves toward a specific outcome—and then there are other things that are just completely beyond our control, no matter how much we fight them. It’s one of those fundamental, frustrating realities of being alive. You can work your tail off, pour every ounce of energy into a goal, and still find yourself staring at a brick wall because some external force decided otherwise. It’s like trying to stop the tide with a plastic shovel. Some stuff is up to us, sure, but a lot of it? Not so much.

My late father used to have this one way of putting things—I can still hear him saying it—it was always something like, "We went out fishing all day and didn't catch a single thing." Just a simple, blunt truth, I suppose.
Look, let’s try to keep some perspective here—let's actually find something to be happy about. I mean, we could have been dealing with much worse. We could have caught a massive sea spider and let it sting us, just dancing around the boat in sheer agony. Or, better yet, the engine could have died on us entirely, leaving us to row for three hours straight. It reminds me of this one engineering student I knew back in the day—about twenty years ago, long before everyone had a smartphone glued to their hand. This poor kid ended up rowing for five hours because his diesel engine ran out of fuel and sucked in air. He actually had a spare gas can and a full set of wrenches with him, but the poor guy didn't realize he needed to loosen a specific part to prime the system manually. He knew *something* had to be done—he could feel it in his gut—but he had absolutely no clue about the actual sequence of events. Just total chaos.
And that right there—that pure, unadulterated ignorance—is exactly what cost him his physique. It’s frustrating, really. You see people walking into a gym like they own the place, thinking they can just wing it without understanding the basic mechanics of training, and then they wonder why they aren't seeing results after six months of grinding. I remember back when I first started hitting the weights in Chicago—I thought I knew everything too, just charging in blindly—and man, did my body pay the price for that ego. But this guy? He didn't even have the sense to check the fundamentals. It’s one thing to work hard, but if you're working hard in the wrong direction, you're basically just spinning your wheels. It's a waste of time, a waste of effort, and honestly, it's just painful to watch. 😁

If you see an injustice, you have a responsibility to try and set things right. Honestly, God isn't going to step in and fix it for you—that’s just not how it works. The real question is whether you’re going to take a stand through a hunger strike, or if you'll opt for a different approach altogether. For instance, something like this:

Whatever happens, happens—it’s just the way things go. If you end up drowning in fish, then you've drowned in fish. That’s just reality.

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Honestly, if you ask me, there’s really no contest—it’s much better to be clean, happy, wealthy, attractive, and young. I mean, think about it. It beats being a complete fool, looking rough, living hand-to-mouth, feeling old, and dealing with constant health issues. Life is just... easier that way. Why would anyone choose the alternative? It’s common sense, really. 😲😁
There are certain things in this life where we can actually exert our own will—where we can grab the wheel and steer ourselves toward a specific outcome—and then there are other things that are just completely beyond our control, no matter how much we fight them. It’s one of those fundamental, frustrating realities of being alive. You can work your tail off, pour every ounce of energy into a goal, and still find yourself staring at a brick wall because some external force decided otherwise. It’s like trying to stop the tide with a plastic shovel. Some stuff is up to us, sure, but a lot of it? Not so much.

My late father used to have this one way of putting things—I can still hear him saying it—it was always something like, "We went out fishing all day and didn't catch a single thing." Just a simple, blunt truth, I suppose.
Look, let’s try to keep some perspective here—let's actually find something to be happy about. I mean, we could have been dealing with much worse. We could have caught a massive sea spider and let it sting us, just dancing around the boat in sheer agony. Or, better yet, the engine could have died on us entirely, leaving us to row for three hours straight. It reminds me of this one engineering student I knew back in the day—about twenty years ago, long before everyone had a smartphone glued to their hand. This poor kid ended up rowing for five hours because his diesel engine ran out of fuel and sucked in air. He actually had a spare gas can and a full set of wrenches with him, but the poor guy didn't realize he needed to loosen a specific part to prime the system manually. He knew *something* had to be done—he could feel it in his gut—but he had absolutely no clue about the actual sequence of events. Just total chaos.
And that right there—that pure, unadulterated ignorance—is exactly what cost him his physique. It’s frustrating, really. You see people walking into a gym like they own the place, thinking they can just wing it without understanding the basic mechanics of training, and then they wonder why they aren't seeing results after six months of grinding. I remember back when I first started hitting the weights in Chicago—I thought I knew everything too, just charging in blindly—and man, did my body pay the price for that ego. But this guy? He didn't even have the sense to check the fundamentals. It’s one thing to work hard, but if you're working hard in the wrong direction, you're basically just spinning your wheels. It's a waste of time, a waste of effort, and honestly, it's just painful to watch. 😁

If you see an injustice, you have a responsibility to try and set things right. Honestly, God isn't going to step in and fix it for you—that’s just not how it works. The real question is whether you’re going to take a stand through a hunger strike, or if you'll opt for a different approach altogether. For instance, something like this:

Exactly. It’s just the way things are—and honestly, they have to be. If you decide to step up, then you’ve made your choice. If you don't, you haven't. It’s that simple. Everything unfolds exactly as it’s meant to, and there isn't any other way for it to go. It happens how it happens, and you can't change that reality.

bluemason3 said:No one is particularly important. Nobody holds a role other than the one shaped by a random chain of events. Most people aren't even aware of any "special" purpose because such things don't actually exist unless you invent them through religion. Spiritual unity is just a mental construct without any real weight. Every person we meet and every event we experience is either pure coincidence or the direct consequence of previous decisions and circumstances. Thinking of life as some grand, majestic achievement is just a religious projection. Emotions are natural, sure, but they’re only useful insofar as they provide actual value in a given situation.

☕

Heh, basically the exact opposite, huh? 😁 ...I suppose it comes down to experience—how we choose to process those experiences and how we carry them with us.

The reality is that we have to live life moving forward, while we can only ever analyze it looking backward, which makes it easy to spot all those cause-and-effect chains that led us to where we are right now... the real question is just how much of our own role in everything we've endured we are actually willing to admit...

It isn't about these mental religious projections, but rather just common sense where you reap what you sow in the sense that good is returned for good, evil for evil, and so on.

As for emotions, I have to wonder what kind of "real benefit" we're talking about and for whom, because it certainly can't be the same for everyone involved, and I don't see what basis anyone would have to claim rights that end up denying those same rights to others...🤷

If you’re looking at things through a strictly deterministic lens, then yeah, sure. Everything is exactly how it has to be, though you’ve also got that whole many-worlds theory floating around, which suggests that every single possibility—or pretty much all of them—is playing out in some other reality. Somewhere out there, maybe monogamy is the standard, or maybe we’re all living in polygamous societies, or perhaps humanity never even crawled out of the caves in the first place. Honestly, wouldn't that have been better? 😁Everything that’s happened from those ancient days up to right now feels fundamentally rigged, and frankly, I'm sick of it. I’m honestly at the point where I’d rather just retreat back into a cave and live without any of these supposed "civilized" luxuries rather than deal with this constant injustice just so I can have access to crashing airplanes, cars, TV, the internet, GMOs, processed junk food, and all the other modern crap. Western civilization really stepped in it somewhere along the line, and if it doesn't fix its own contradictions soon, the whole thing is going to collapse under its own weight. I don't even know if we can truly claim to be the most technologically advanced era yet, because even though we've invented a million useless gadgets we don't know what to do with, we're all emotionally broken. Forced labor and all these little distractions designed to scratch at our "needs" just to act as a band-aid for emotional emptiness... that's the real legacy of this entire civilization.

Michael Anderson2 said:Better? Why exactly is it better? For whom? For what purpose? And from whose perspective are we looking at this?

It is what it is—there’s really no way around it. You can't change the hand you're dealt, and there isn't much anyone can do to step in and fix things. At some point, you just have to accept it and move on. That's just how it goes.

Whatever happens, happens—it’s just the way things go. If you end up drowning in fish, then you've drowned in fish. That’s just reality.

Exactly. It’s just the way things are—and honestly, they have to be. If you decide to step up, then you’ve made your choice. If you don't, you haven't. It’s that simple. Everything unfolds exactly as it’s meant to, and there isn't any other way for it to go. It happens how it happens, and you can't change that reality.

👍
bravo man, you nailed it.
I really need to get back to that headspace of peace and happiness, otherwise I'm gonna lose my mind. Just need some alone time and some meditation. A simple guy like me can afford to step away from all this "wisdom" for a bit, because if you don't, life starts chewing you up and spitting you out.

rustymaker5 said:Heh, basically the exact opposite, huh? 😁 ...I suppose it comes down to experience—how we choose to process those experiences and how we carry them with us.

The reality is that we have to live life moving forward, while we can only ever analyze it looking backward, which makes it easy to spot all those cause-and-effect chains that led us to where we are right now... the real question is just how much of our own role in everything we've endured we are actually willing to admit...

It isn't about these mental religious projections, but rather just common sense where you reap what you sow in the sense that good is returned for good, evil for evil, and so on.

As for emotions, I have to wonder what kind of "real benefit" we're talking about and for whom, because it certainly can't be the same for everyone involved, and I don't see what basis anyone would have to claim rights that end up denying those same rights to others...🤷

Was this just a case of sudden, reckless karma hitting me:

Or was it just pure statistics? Though, if we're counting, it's 1 : 2000 in favor of karma. 😁

Not exactly a win. I took a few days of sick leave so I could get prepared and set sail when the weather was actually decent. I spent the day before testing the engine, planning to head out tomorrow. But the second I turned the key, everything went sideways: only one cylinder is firing. I tried every repair under the sun, but nothing works—it’s still running at half power. Naturally, I had to scrap the trip. All that prep work and taking the time off for nothing. It makes you wonder, though—how does a breakdown happen completely out of the blue when everything has been running perfectly for a year and a half? What are the mathematical odds of a failure happening on *that* specific day? Religious folks will say God is punishing me because I used sick leave for personal business. New Age types will tell me it's karmic retribution for the same reasons. And atheists? They'll tell me I'm overthinking it because crap happens every single day.

Michael Anderson2 said:Better? Why exactly is it better? For whom? For what purpose? And from whose perspective are we looking at this?

It is what it is—there’s really no way around it. You can't change the hand you're dealt, and there isn't much anyone can do to step in and fix things. At some point, you just have to accept it and move on. That's just how it goes.

Whatever happens, happens—it’s just the way things go. If you end up drowning in fish, then you've drowned in fish. That’s just reality.

Exactly. It’s just the way things are—and honestly, they have to be. If you decide to step up, then you’ve made your choice. If you don't, you haven't. It’s that simple. Everything unfolds exactly as it’s meant to, and there isn't any other way for it to go. It happens how it happens, and you can't change that reality.

From the perspective of the "I" that exists inside us.
Still, for our "I," it's certainly better to have some sexy girl manicuring her nails than to have someone from Al-Qaeda doing it with red-hot needles. 😲 😲 😁 😲 😲

Quinn:

It’s just how things go—it’s inevitable, really. You can't fight it, you can't influence it, there’s no point in trying to steer the ship once the storm hits. You just have to accept it and move on. Whatever happens, happens. If you end up drowning in the middle of the Atlantic, well, you're underwater—that's just the reality of the situation. It is what it is. Exactly. That’s the whole point. It’s just how it goes, and honestly, how it has to be. If you make a move, you made a move—period. If you sit on your hands, then you didn't act—simple as that. Everything unfolds exactly as it does, and everything is destined to happen exactly this way. There isn't some other path we could have taken; life follows its own course, and frankly, there's nothing you can do to change the fundamental nature of things.

Since none of us have a crystal ball to see what's coming next, our only real option is to take what we know and act in a way that serves our best interests and helps our community.
In the grand scheme of things, though, fate is pretty much set in stone regardless of whether we step up or stay out of the way. We meet our destiny whether we participate or not.

rustymaker5 said:Heh, basically the exact opposite, huh? 😁 ...I suppose it comes down to experience—how we choose to process those experiences and how we carry them with us.

The reality is that we have to live life moving forward, while we can only ever analyze it looking backward, which makes it easy to spot all those cause-and-effect chains that led us to where we are right now... the real question is just how much of our own role in everything we've endured we are actually willing to admit...

It isn't about these mental religious projections, but rather just common sense where you reap what you sow in the sense that good is returned for good, evil for evil, and so on.

As for emotions, I have to wonder what kind of "real benefit" we're talking about and for whom, because it certainly can't be the same for everyone involved, and I don't see what basis anyone would have to claim rights that end up denying those same rights to others...🤷

Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

bluemason3 said:Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

Maybe it’s time we let go of our own preconceived notions and finally just make room for the Truth.
Because, honestly, she’s the only thing that actually matters.

It’s honestly fascinating to watch people who have absolutely no long-term vision—no concept of eternity or anything existing beyond this tiny slice of time and space—obsess over these meticulously crafted life plans. They spend so much energy calculating every single move, weighing every possible outcome, and trying to navigate some sort of "perfect middle ground" that supposedly balances everything out. But for what? What's the point of all that precision? In the end, we're all just going to be dust anyway. I really don't see the logic in it.

Lisa Morales4 said:Maybe it’s time we let go of our own preconceived notions and finally just make room for the Truth.
Because, honestly, she’s the only thing that actually matters.

It’s honestly fascinating to watch people who have absolutely no long-term vision—no concept of eternity or anything existing beyond this tiny slice of time and space—obsess over these meticulously crafted life plans. They spend so much energy calculating every single move, weighing every possible outcome, and trying to navigate some sort of "perfect middle ground" that supposedly balances everything out. But for what? What's the point of all that precision? In the end, we're all just going to be dust anyway. I really don't see the logic in it.

Truth is just a concept invented by people too stubborn to admit they're obsessed with their own limitations. They can't handle the reality of relativity or how finite human knowledge really is, so they assign absolute value to myths, ideas, and faith instead.

Nicholas Ward5 said:👍
bravo man, you nailed it.
I really need to get back to that headspace of peace and happiness, otherwise I'm gonna lose my mind. Just need some alone time and some meditation. A simple guy like me can afford to step away from all this "wisdom" for a bit, because if you don't, life starts chewing you up and spitting you out.

And it's exactly as it should be. If life starts chewing you up like gum, well, that's just how it goes—it's just the way things are.

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Was this just a case of sudden, reckless karma hitting me:

Or was it just pure statistics? Though, if we're counting, it's 1 : 2000 in favor of karma. 😁

Not exactly a win. I took a few days of sick leave so I could get prepared and set sail when the weather was actually decent. I spent the day before testing the engine, planning to head out tomorrow. But the second I turned the key, everything went sideways: only one cylinder is firing. I tried every repair under the sun, but nothing works—it’s still running at half power. Naturally, I had to scrap the trip. All that prep work and taking the time off for nothing. It makes you wonder, though—how does a breakdown happen completely out of the blue when everything has been running perfectly for a year and a half? What are the mathematical odds of a failure happening on *that* specific day? Religious folks will say God is punishing me because I used sick leave for personal business. New Age types will tell me it's karmic retribution for the same reasons. And atheists? They'll tell me I'm overthinking it because crap happens every single day.

From the perspective of the "I" that exists inside us.
Still, for our "I," it's certainly better to have some sexy girl manicuring her nails than to have someone from Al-Qaeda doing it with red-hot needles. 😲 😲 😁 😲 😲

Quinn:

It’s just how things go—it’s inevitable, really. You can't fight it, you can't influence it, there’s no point in trying to steer the ship once the storm hits. You just have to accept it and move on. Whatever happens, happens. If you end up drowning in the middle of the Atlantic, well, you're underwater—that's just the reality of the situation. It is what it is. Exactly. That’s the whole point. It’s just how it goes, and honestly, how it has to be. If you make a move, you made a move—period. If you sit on your hands, then you didn't act—simple as that. Everything unfolds exactly as it does, and everything is destined to happen exactly this way. There isn't some other path we could have taken; life follows its own course, and frankly, there's nothing you can do to change the fundamental nature of things.

Since none of us have a crystal ball to see what's coming next, our only real option is to take what we know and act in a way that serves our best interests and helps our community.
In the grand scheme of things, though, fate is pretty much set in stone regardless of whether we step up or stay out of the way. We meet our destiny whether we participate or not.

If a person—that "Self" you’re talking about—actually wanted to weigh what’s better versus what’s worse, they’d first need to understand who they actually are and where they’re headed. Only then could they make an assessment.

Do you even know who you are, where you're going, or what constitutes "better" or "worse" in that context?

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Was this just a case of sudden, reckless karma hitting me:

Or was it just pure statistics? Though, if we're counting, it's 1 : 2000 in favor of karma. 😁

Not exactly a win. I took a few days of sick leave so I could get prepared and set sail when the weather was actually decent. I spent the day before testing the engine, planning to head out tomorrow. But the second I turned the key, everything went sideways: only one cylinder is firing. I tried every repair under the sun, but nothing works—it’s still running at half power. Naturally, I had to scrap the trip. All that prep work and taking the time off for nothing. It makes you wonder, though—how does a breakdown happen completely out of the blue when everything has been running perfectly for a year and a half? What are the mathematical odds of a failure happening on *that* specific day? Religious folks will say God is punishing me because I used sick leave for personal business. New Age types will tell me it's karmic retribution for the same reasons. And atheists? They'll tell me I'm overthinking it because crap happens every single day.

From the perspective of the "I" that exists inside us.
Still, for our "I," it's certainly better to have some sexy girl manicuring her nails than to have someone from Al-Qaeda doing it with red-hot needles. 😲 😲 😁 😲 😲

Quinn:

It’s just how things go—it’s inevitable, really. You can't fight it, you can't influence it, there’s no point in trying to steer the ship once the storm hits. You just have to accept it and move on. Whatever happens, happens. If you end up drowning in the middle of the Atlantic, well, you're underwater—that's just the reality of the situation. It is what it is. Exactly. That’s the whole point. It’s just how it goes, and honestly, how it has to be. If you make a move, you made a move—period. If you sit on your hands, then you didn't act—simple as that. Everything unfolds exactly as it does, and everything is destined to happen exactly this way. There isn't some other path we could have taken; life follows its own course, and frankly, there's nothing you can do to change the fundamental nature of things.

Since none of us have a crystal ball to see what's coming next, our only real option is to take what we know and act in a way that serves our best interests and helps our community.
In the grand scheme of things, though, fate is pretty much set in stone regardless of whether we step up or stay out of the way. We meet our destiny whether we participate or not.

You can say whatever you want. You can rationalize it, fantasize, or live in denial, but reality is what it is. It cannot be anything else. You can't run from the truth; it’s a plain fact that most people simply fail to grasp.

Whatever exists, exists by necessity. It couldn't be any other way. There is no escaping it, regardless of what you do, what you decide, or where you go. What is, is necessary. Period.

bluemason3 said:Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

I mean, I guess that’s fine, since we all experience ourselves, other people, the world, and life itself through our own little lenses, and perception is just like people—no two perspectives are ever truly identical...
But it feels important to me that a person's perception actually keeps them in a state of peace and contentment, rather than making life feel like one endless battlefield where you only get the occasional moment to catch your breath...

bluemason3 said:Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

I assume you're talking about the mind and its internal frameworks here... but if that's the case, why shouldn't we strive to actually grasp reality, and what exactly do you think that reality is, anyway?...

bluemason3 said:Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

Maybe so, but you know how it goes—if you play with fire, you're going to get burned... If someone decides to tail a guy who just aggressively cut them off in a Starbucks parking lot, they probably shouldn't act shocked when they end up getting into a physical altercation with him...

bluemason3 said:Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

You don't need to bring in anything metaphysical at all; it's just plain, simple, everyday experience... Take any partnership—whether it's a marriage, a business deal, or just a friendship—where one person constantly treats the other poorly, and then they act completely blindsided when that person suddenly cuts them off... like, what happened? What did I do to deserve this?!?
Or, say, you leave raising a kid entirely up to the streets, the public schools, and the internet because you're too busy chasing a promotion at Goldman Sachs and don't have the time or energy for them, and then you're left feeling devastated when that child grows up and treats you like a complete stranger...

bluemason3 said:Just being contrarian for the sake of it.😁

The point is, all these ideas are just concepts we created, not objective reality.

It's incredibly easy to manufacture cause-and-effect links and interpret them subjectively just to fit the worldview we already believe in.

There's no real evidence for "reaping what you sow" in everyday life. To make that work, you have to pull in metaphysical concepts like heaven or karma. Even pragmatic, non-religious systems like Buddhism or Jainism had to adopt karma just to maintain a sense of cosmic justice; you can't prove any of that through direct observation.

Why would it need to benefit everyone? From an evolutionary or biological standpoint—setting aside metaphysics—utility follows a strict hierarchy: 1. Self*; 2. Children; 3. Immediate family; 4. Extended family; 5. Small social groups we identify with; 6. Larger society, and so on.

Not everything carries equal weight in that hierarchy. The benefit to those lower on the ladder is essentially a reflection of our own; as social animals, we fulfill our evolutionary purpose through communities that aid survival, while our offspring carry our genetic code.

* According to the selfish gene theory, the primary driver isn't individual gain, but rather the preservation of genetic information. That's why there's a measurable evolutionary advantage to self-sacrifice for others based on how closely related they are to us.

And why not just throw those metaphysical concepts into the mix while we're at it? I mean, let's just see where all those other "higher ideals" have led the world so far...!!

Was the world actually better back when metaphysics called the shots? 🤣

Cause and effect are very real, but they aren't tethered to morality. Take a sociopathic manipulator who exploits someone without any blowback—even if the victim ends up feeling grateful—or a slave owner where the victim has zero leverage. Or just some criminal running an illegal trafficking ring in the shadows. The consequences you’re talking about aren't really about good or evil; they're just the results of poor planning, bad foresight, or simple mistakes.

Michael Anderson2 said:If a person—that "Self" you’re talking about—actually wanted to weigh what’s better versus what’s worse, they’d first need to understand who they actually are and where they’re headed. Only then could they make an assessment.

Do you even know who you are, where you're going, or what constitutes "better" or "worse" in that context?

You can say whatever you want. You can rationalize it, fantasize, or live in denial, but reality is what it is. It cannot be anything else. You can't run from the truth; it’s a plain fact that most people simply fail to grasp.

Whatever exists, exists by necessity. It couldn't be any other way. There is no escaping it, regardless of what you do, what you decide, or where you go. What is, is necessary. Period.

Look, some things don't require a deep dive into philosophy. Everything eventually reaches its end—it's just how life works—and there isn't much we can do to nudge it along. Usually, when you're on that path, the "better" way becomes obvious pretty quickly. Plus, we pick up most of our lessons from the people right next to us.

As for who "I" am?? Well, that's a whole different rabbit hole entirely:

Quinn:

Whatever exists, it must exist; it cannot be any other way. There is no escaping it, regardless of what you do, what you decide, or where you wander. What is, is necessary, and that's that.

By that logic, it was "necessary" for Hitler to murder millions of people in concentration camps!

And it was equally "necessary" for others to step in and stop him.

steelmarlin77 said:If you’re looking at things through a strictly deterministic lens, then yeah, sure. Everything is exactly how it has to be, though you’ve also got that whole many-worlds theory floating around, which suggests that every single possibility—or pretty much all of them—is playing out in some other reality. Somewhere out there, maybe monogamy is the standard, or maybe we’re all living in polygamous societies, or perhaps humanity never even crawled out of the caves in the first place. Honestly, wouldn't that have been better? 😁Everything that’s happened from those ancient days up to right now feels fundamentally rigged, and frankly, I'm sick of it. I’m honestly at the point where I’d rather just retreat back into a cave and live without any of these supposed "civilized" luxuries rather than deal with this constant injustice just so I can have access to crashing airplanes, cars, TV, the internet, GMOs, processed junk food, and all the other modern crap. Western civilization really stepped in it somewhere along the line, and if it doesn't fix its own contradictions soon, the whole thing is going to collapse under its own weight. I don't even know if we can truly claim to be the most technologically advanced era yet, because even though we've invented a million useless gadgets we don't know what to do with, we're all emotionally broken. Forced labor and all these little distractions designed to scratch at our "needs" just to act as a band-aid for emotional emptiness... that's the real legacy of this entire civilization.

Then go. What's stopping you? Thank God there are still caves out there...
You'll definitely get a different perspective.

Once you start worrying about your own survival—like whether you'll actually eat tomorrow, stay warm, or sleep through the night safely—you’ll stop obsessing over most of the stuff you just listed.

There is nothing worse than worrying about the entire world and getting bitter about it, while doing absolutely nothing about it...

You’re basically irrelevant until you actually do something significant for someone who can truly appreciate it—not just some random person...
For instance, helping animals in need. They have so much capacity for love. Or helping some underprivileged kid, or a struggling elderly person who’s been totally abandoned by society. Most adults don't value anything unless there's a selfish benefit involved. Life can honestly be a total waste if you don't take action. If you just sit there passively waiting for adults to shower you with affection or gifts... well, that's just naive.

But if you pull off something truly massive, then everything changes. Honestly, if I could, I’d start with animal rescues and children. I'm constantly planning ways to help animals, but I lack support—it’s hard to do this alone. Right now, all I really do is volunteer with the ASPCA and send out emails from time to time. I desperately want to help the pigeons in New York City—they’re suffering so much, and there's even talk about how people can just mistreat or kill them whenever some idiot feels like it. I want to make a bigger impact because where I spend half my time—the United Kingdom—animals are especially vulnerable and neglected.

I just don't know how to kick things off. It's nearly impossible to do it solo. But hey, maybe that's why we're here—to leave a mark. Leaving a legacy is worth infinitely more than being caught on camera by some paparazzi just so a bunch of shallow creeps—who only care about themselves anyway—can stare at you. I’d choose doing something beautiful for someone who actually cares and whose life is changed forever over that any day of the week.

It absolutely sickens me how little people care about animals, pigeons, kids, or the elderly who have zero help. Meanwhile, some billionaire’s daughter wanders into a boutique and drops $450 on a scrap of fabric $0.00. The world is a disgusting place, which is why I hate it and would rather just play the piano. People and this whole world... it's just nauseating.

Quincy:

I mean, what can you even say about a guy like Briscoe? Honestly, it’s kind of hard to wrap your head around the sheer level of talent we’re seeing right now. You sit there watching him move on the court and you just have to wonder—is he even human at this point? It feels like he’s playing a completely different game than everyone else out there. Sometimes I catch myself staring at the screen thinking, does anyone else feel that weird sense of awe, or am I just getting old and losing my edge? He’s got this way of slicing through defenses like they aren't even there, just effortless, almost frustratingly smooth if you're an opponent. It makes you question everything you thought you knew about rhythm and pace in the game. Is it even fair to call it competition when one guy is operating on a totally different frequency? It’s wild, really. Just absolutely wild. kaže: So, just go. Seriously, what’s actually stopping you? It’s not like we’re running out of caves or anything, thank God there's still some space left to hide in. You’re definitely gonna walk away with a whole different perspective on things, you know? Look, once you hit that point where you’re genuinely staring down the barrel of survival—you know, when you aren't even sure if there's going to be a meal on the table tomorrow, or how you're gonna keep from freezing, or if you'll even get a decent night's sleep without some chaos breaking loose—all those other little things you've been obsessing over? They just kind of evaporate, don't they? When your own existence is hanging by a thread, does anyone really have the luxury of worrying about the trivial nonsense we spend our lives stressing about right now? It all becomes pretty irrelevant pretty fast. There’s honestly nothing quite as soul-crushing as sitting there, spiraling through every single disaster happening across the entire country—just soaking up all that bitterness and global dysfunction—while doing absolutely nothing about any of it. Is there anything more pathetic than that? Just staring at the ceiling, letting the weight of the world crush you, while you stay perfectly, uselessly still?

I’ve been a gutter rat myself once upon a time, you know? Just drifting through the grit. I used to spend way too much time overthinking survival strategies like they were some high-stakes game of chess, which is kind of ridiculous when you think about it. It was actually almost... fun? Especially during those brutal midwestern winters when the thermometer hits ten below zero or even lower and the wind just cuts right through you. But man, things have changed lately. It’s gotten harder. Now, people just want to get fat and lazy, chasing after smaller and smaller payoffs instead of actually playing the game. I guess there's this weird sense of emotional fulfillment you get when survival is a constant struggle, a real test of your soul, but what's the point if there's no higher purpose at the end of the road? If you're just constantly running just to stay alive, aren't you basically just an addict chasing a fix? You're stuck in that endless loop, just running and running, without ever actually building anything meaningful.

Sophia Thompson7 said:You’re basically irrelevant until you actually do something significant for someone who can truly appreciate it—not just some random person...
For instance, helping animals in need. They have so much capacity for love. Or helping some underprivileged kid, or a struggling elderly person who’s been totally abandoned by society. Most adults don't value anything unless there's a selfish benefit involved. Life can honestly be a total waste if you don't take action. If you just sit there passively waiting for adults to shower you with affection or gifts... well, that's just naive.

But if you pull off something truly massive, then everything changes. Honestly, if I could, I’d start with animal rescues and children. I'm constantly planning ways to help animals, but I lack support—it’s hard to do this alone. Right now, all I really do is volunteer with the ASPCA and send out emails from time to time. I desperately want to help the pigeons in New York City—they’re suffering so much, and there's even talk about how people can just mistreat or kill them whenever some idiot feels like it. I want to make a bigger impact because where I spend half my time—the United Kingdom—animals are especially vulnerable and neglected.

I just don't know how to kick things off. It's nearly impossible to do it solo. But hey, maybe that's why we're here—to leave a mark. Leaving a legacy is worth infinitely more than being caught on camera by some paparazzi just so a bunch of shallow creeps—who only care about themselves anyway—can stare at you. I’d choose doing something beautiful for someone who actually cares and whose life is changed forever over that any day of the week.

It absolutely sickens me how little people care about animals, pigeons, kids, or the elderly who have zero help. Meanwhile, some billionaire’s daughter wanders into a boutique and drops $450 on a scrap of fabric $0.00. The world is a disgusting place, which is why I hate it and would rather just play the piano. People and this whole world... it's just nauseating.

I spend my days feeding strays—cats, dogs, whatever wanders by looking for a handout. I try to look out for the folks who have nothing left, war victims, the disabled, the sick... but man, it’s heavy. It isn't always sunshine and rainbows. You see the light, sure, but you see the darkness too. Take this one neighbor of mine, for instance. He’s convinced that every single one of these animals needs to be put down. He actually poisons them, though he’s slick enough to make sure there's no proof, and the local police? They couldn't care less. Then there’s the guy who spends his whole life whining because some dog barked near his window, filing lawsuits against owners just to squeeze a few bucks out of them. It’s a cycle, you know? You give a little food or a few dollars to someone struggling, maybe you brighten their day for a second, but then the bank comes knocking the next morning and tosses them onto the street. And then they turn on you, heading straight to those aggressive neighborhood watch groups or the local activists, blaming *you* because you couldn't stop the eviction process even though you're bleeding yourself dry trying to help. Am I supposed to feel guilty because I don't have connections at the precinct like those other guys do? And don't even get me started on the politics of it all. Suppose you step up to help a civilian victim of a conflict, but they happen to belong to the "wrong" side, and suddenly you're getting jumped by some angry veteran claiming you're aiding the enemy. How can people not grasp that we're all just human beings? We're all living, breathing souls. It’s so easy to end up looking like a fool. Honestly, half of these big "charity drives" for various organizations are just elaborate money-laundering schemes and straight-up theft. You want to know how guys like Warren Buffett or those massive corporate moguls really start? They rip the funds right out of the local food banks and charities... and then they go out and buy a Maybach. 😁

I play some decent jazz piano myself, though I spent a little time at Juilliard before realizing the whole academic grind just wasn't my scene.

At the end of the day, there’s really no point in hating on the world, you know? You eventually realize it isn't all completely terrible.

bluemason3 said:Was the world actually better back when metaphysics called the shots? 🤣

Cause and effect are very real, but they aren't tethered to morality. Take a sociopathic manipulator who exploits someone without any blowback—even if the victim ends up feeling grateful—or a slave owner where the victim has zero leverage. Or just some criminal running an illegal trafficking ring in the shadows. The consequences you’re talking about aren't really about good or evil; they're just the results of poor planning, bad foresight, or simple mistakes.

In my view, "good" and "evil" are just relative categories because what feels righteous to one person might be devastating to another, so you could argue they don't even truly exist as objective truths... there is only what *is*, and how an individual perceives and reacts to that reality.

You talk about the ability to predict and plan, but that assumes a future-time that hasn't actually arrived yet, and honestly, it’s anyone's guess whether our current actions will even lead to those expectations being met in the first place... so, I wouldn't necessarily say a lack of results is a consequence of anything other than the messy way things are unfolding right now.

It’s a fair question, but I’d argue that having the ability to assess, predict, and analyze based on experience and intuition can narrow down potential outcomes. It allows you to guess future events with much higher accuracy than just random chance.

No matter how you slice it, I don't see any evidence that good is rewarded with good, or vice versa. The idea of reaping what you sow isn't a functional capability; it’s an ethical concept. Of course, emotional intelligence is a skill, too, but so is psychopathic manipulation. So... for every "bad" person who seems to be winning at life, there's a "good" person just suffering because of them.

I agree that good and evil aren't objective realities, but if they aren't, then talking about sowing and reaping based on ethics becomes pretty meaningless.🤷

Sophia Thompson7 said:You’re basically irrelevant until you actually do something significant for someone who can truly appreciate it—not just some random person...
For instance, helping animals in need. They have so much capacity for love. Or helping some underprivileged kid, or a struggling elderly person who’s been totally abandoned by society. Most adults don't value anything unless there's a selfish benefit involved. Life can honestly be a total waste if you don't take action. If you just sit there passively waiting for adults to shower you with affection or gifts... well, that's just naive.

But if you pull off something truly massive, then everything changes. Honestly, if I could, I’d start with animal rescues and children. I'm constantly planning ways to help animals, but I lack support—it’s hard to do this alone. Right now, all I really do is volunteer with the ASPCA and send out emails from time to time. I desperately want to help the pigeons in New York City—they’re suffering so much, and there's even talk about how people can just mistreat or kill them whenever some idiot feels like it. I want to make a bigger impact because where I spend half my time—the United Kingdom—animals are especially vulnerable and neglected.

I just don't know how to kick things off. It's nearly impossible to do it solo. But hey, maybe that's why we're here—to leave a mark. Leaving a legacy is worth infinitely more than being caught on camera by some paparazzi just so a bunch of shallow creeps—who only care about themselves anyway—can stare at you. I’d choose doing something beautiful for someone who actually cares and whose life is changed forever over that any day of the week.

It absolutely sickens me how little people care about animals, pigeons, kids, or the elderly who have zero help. Meanwhile, some billionaire’s daughter wanders into a boutique and drops $450 on a scrap of fabric $0.00. The world is a disgusting place, which is why I hate it and would rather just play the piano. People and this whole world... it's just nauseating.

I mean, it’s likely always going to be that way because trying to measure your own worth based on how other people react to you is just a dead end, a total waste of energy, since it all boils down to your own expectations, and let me tell you, expectations are where all the trouble starts...

It isn't hard to get moving—you just start with yourself without constantly worrying about everyone else: you give a smile, say something kind, help an old lady cross the street, throw some seed out for the birds in the winter, instead of swatting a fly you just usher it out the door, or just keeping your cool when someone tries to pick a fight... and then suddenly you realize you're actually happy with who you are, and honestly, you aren't responsible for fixing the whole world anyway, seeing as you can't really force people to change unless they actually want to, so you're really only accountable for how you carry yourself, which in turn sets an example for others that being a decent person is actually possible...

bluemason3 said:It’s a fair question, but I’d argue that having the ability to assess, predict, and analyze based on experience and intuition can narrow down potential outcomes. It allows you to guess future events with much higher accuracy than just random chance.

No matter how you slice it, I don't see any evidence that good is rewarded with good, or vice versa. The idea of reaping what you sow isn't a functional capability; it’s an ethical concept. Of course, emotional intelligence is a skill, too, but so is psychopathic manipulation. So... for every "bad" person who seems to be winning at life, there's a "good" person just suffering because of them.

I agree that good and evil aren't objective realities, but if they aren't, then talking about sowing and reaping based on ethics becomes pretty meaningless.🤷

Let me give you a straightforward example from my own life: I’ve had my dog for over ten years now, and back in the early days, I found myself constantly clashing with people because I’d react so aggressively to their comments—you know, the usual stuff about picking up poop, or how I care more about an animal than "real" people, or even just asking if I'm sleeping with him and all that nonsense... I’d head out for a walk feeling totally agitated, basically bracing myself for another encounter with some idiot, and sure enough, I usually found one! It was like whatever I focused on, whatever kind of energy I was putting out there, that was exactly what I ended up inviting into my day...
But ever since I shifted my mindset—first by just refusing to engage with those petty remarks, and then by simply stopping myself from getting worked up beforehand—those types of people just don't seem to cross my path anymore. It’s not that they’ve vanished from the streets, it’s just that by changing my own mental landscape, I’m no longer attracting them...

So, if this ethical criterion doesn't primarily apply to the quality of our human connections—which is the very thing that grates on all of us and the entire reason we're even sitting here having this conversation—then honestly, I have no clue what kind of "meaning" we could possibly be talking about... 🤷