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School Reform: Thoughts?

Started by Karen Richardson3 · · 👁 77 views · 1.7K replies

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Participants Karen Richardson3rowdypanther12urbantinker8Charles Murphy6wanderinggardener12Arthur Hernandez6brightheron64Terry Cooper69jadetinker85Rachel Jones8David Palmer5Benjamin Wilson4analogseal18silentraven6Jason MorganAngela Wright4Susan Jamesnimblelynx7David Jackson2Chloe Roberts2Jonathan Ortiz2Emily Gonzalez51Brandon Brooks11Susan Nguyen54 …
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#461 ·
hiddendriver34 said:
I’m just going to say it: I am absolutely, 100% fruity. And honestly? I couldn't care less if people find that weird. There's this weird pressure sometimes to act all stoic and "normal," but life is way too short to spend it pretending you aren't exactly who you are. It’s like trying to force a square peg into a round hole—it’s exhausting, it doesn't work, and you end up just denting the wood. I’d much rather just embrace the chaos and be my colorful, unapologetic self. If being "fruity" means living authentically, then hand me the fruit basket! kaže:
Good grief, who on earth brought up Shakespeare in second grade?😕

That article at the link? Total clickbait. It’s clearly written by someone who doesn't have the slightest clue how things actually work on the ground—especially when it comes to vocational schools and trade programs.
These projects aren't some massive, all-consuming undertakings. They’re actually done in bits and pieces—mostly just during class time with a teacher right there to help guide the way.
I mean, let’s be real—even the most hardcore literature professors probably aren't sitting down and reading the entire Odyssey from cover to cover. It's like saying you've read every single page of the Encyclopedia Britannica just to prove you're smart. Most scholars just dive into the heavy-hitting chapters or the specific parts that actually matter to their research. It’s all about the highlights and the deep dives, not necessarily grinding through every single line.😁
The same goes for the heavy hitters like Shakespeare, Drábek, Gundel, and Zoran—they’re all in the same boat.
Look, reading a quick excerpt for homework isn't exactly rocket science. It’s not like you're climbing Everest; if you have some analysis or study guides sitting right under the text to guide you, it’s practically effortless. But here's the catch: you actually have to put in the work. You can't just skim the words; you have to actually turn your brain on and engage with what's on the page. And let's be honest—that part? That’s usually the exact moment students decide they'd rather be doing literally anything else.

Look, I’ve been in this game long enough to know exactly what I’m looking at. I can tell pretty quickly whether a kid is actually breaking a sweat or just going through the motions. When you've spent this much time in the classroom, you develop a sixth sense for distinguishing between a genuine, heavy-duty effort and someone just doing the bare minimum for their age group.😉

I’m honestly struggling to follow your logic here. What exactly are you trying to argue? Are you actually suggesting that the Shakespearean approach... Judith So, here’s the million-dollar question: should you actually sit down and read the whole book for your assignment, or can you just get away with reading the SparkNotes? Honestly? It depends on how much you value your sanity (and your GPA). Look, if you’re just trying to pass a quick quiz where they ask "what color was the protagonist's hat?", sure, a summary will save you three hours of your life. You can skim the plot points, grab some character names, and call it a day. It’s like looking at a photo of a burger instead of actually eating it—you know what it looks like, but you aren't getting any of the flavor. But if you actually want to *understand* what the author is doing—the subtext, the pacing, the way the dialogue hits you—then you’ve gotta read the thing. Reading the full text is like watching a movie in 4K versus looking at a blurry thumbnail on YouTube. There’s a massive difference in the experience. When you read the actual prose, you catch those little details and emotional beats that a summary completely glosses over. Those are usually the exact things teachers bring up in essays to see who actually did the work and who just Googled the ending. My take? If it’s a classic that’s actually decent, give it a fair shot. If it’s something truly soul-crushing, maybe lean a bit harder on the study guides to help you navigate the slog. But don't skip the journey entirely if you can help it. You'll regret it when you're staring at a blank essay page wondering why everyone is talking about symbolism you never even saw.

I mean, if you're really out there advocating for fragmented reading... Judith If you're bringing up those other works mentioned by MLA, then I honestly don't know who you think you're arguing with. It’s like trying to debate the weather—everyone is already on board with that side of things.

I think I mentioned this before, but I’m really not trying to push anyone to go out and read, say, everything Judith has written from cover to cover.
I mean, I guess my point is just that she isn't even being taught in its entirety in most schools anymore, so I don't really see why we need all these grand, sweeping reforms or those sensationalist links everywhere. It feels like a bit much, maybe.

On top of all that, I was also asking about what the actual criteria are for getting new pieces added to the lists.
I suppose we really ought to look into modernizing the required reading list, though I don't see much point in rushing things. It’s mostly just a matter of figuring out what our specific criteria should be, I guess.
I guess we could probably add a few more layers beyond just the usual old versus new, hard versus easy, or boring versus interesting dynamics... maybe there’s something else we’re missing in there, though I can't quite put my finger on it yet.🤷
Chloe Roberts2 Chloe Roberts2 Active Member
75 messages
joined Apr 2015
#462 ·
urbantinker8 said:Good grief, who was even talking about Shakespeare for second graders?😕

The article in that link is pretty sensationalist, I think, and it seems to have been written by someone who clearly doesn't understand how things work, like in vocational high schools, for instance.
The works mentioned are usually handled in fragments, mostly during class periods with a teacher's help.
I doubt even the most advanced honors students are sitting down to read the entirety of Homer.😁
The same goes for Shakespeare, Frost, Whitman, or any of those other classics.
Reading a specific excerpt for homework isn't exactly a massive undertaking, especially when you have analysis provided right underneath, but it does require spending a bit of time and actually engaging your mind, which, I guess, is what most students tend to avoid.

Having spent plenty of time in the classroom myself, I feel like I can get a pretty decent handle on what constitutes a small, medium, or large amount of effort for a given age group.😉

😵 Just a slip of the tongue, my bad. 🙂
swiftranger16 swiftranger16 Active Member
71 messages
joined Feb 2010
#463 ·
Lyanna, where on earth did you see me bringing up Marulic? And when did I say people wouldn't be reading? If that's how you interpret texts at your university, you should probably be glad about the current credit system.

Look, I am an expert. But only for the sake of this discussion. In real life, I'm not really in that world anymore. After sixteen years of schooling and fifteen years of trying to actually make a difference in different ways, I just quit the American education system. So yeah, I'm unemployed now. Honestly, it beats sitting around listening to and watching a bunch of half-informed hacks draft reforms based on whatever the daily political news cycle dictates.

The only place a real reform can actually happen is in the classroom. The only person who can pull it off is a teacher. Not Jokic.
If we kill off every bit of intellectual effort, if we just lock ourselves in schools until June because we're checking boxes or running some "project week," and if we keep blindly copying someone else's curriculum without understanding it... man... anyway, I've got stuff to do.☕
silentraven6 silentraven6 Regular
276 messages
joined Nov 2018
#464 ·
No offense intended here, and I’d really appreciate it if we could skip the sarcastic jabs for once.
silentraven6 silentraven6 Regular
276 messages
joined Nov 2018
#465 ·
swiftranger16 said:Lyanna, where on earth did you see me bringing up Marulic? And when did I say people wouldn't be reading? If that's how you interpret texts at your university, you should probably be glad about the current credit system.

Look, I am an expert. But only for the sake of this discussion. In real life, I'm not really in that world anymore. After sixteen years of schooling and fifteen years of trying to actually make a difference in different ways, I just quit the American education system. So yeah, I'm unemployed now. Honestly, it beats sitting around listening to and watching a bunch of half-informed hacks draft reforms based on whatever the daily political news cycle dictates.

The only place a real reform can actually happen is in the classroom. The only person who can pull it off is a teacher. Not Jokic.
If we kill off every bit of intellectual effort, if we just lock ourselves in schools until June because we're checking boxes or running some "project week," and if we keep blindly copying someone else's curriculum without understanding it... man... anyway, I've got stuff to do.☕

I’m still curious about what specific problems you're seeing. If you feel like sharing, walk me through some concrete examples.
Also, if you quit teaching altogether, then things clearly weren't great before, which means change is definitely needed.

And from what I understand, LeBron James didn't write this reform; it was a massive group of people straight from the classrooms—people who are mostly just listed as "directors" in the newspapers.
swiftranger16 swiftranger16 Active Member
71 messages
joined Feb 2010
#466 ·
The issues:
1. Picking people from classrooms, like you mentioned. For instance, most of them are based in Los Angeles because of travel costs. Someone from San Francisco can’t be an expert because flying in for meetings is just too expensive. Then there’s the political stuff—satisfying publishing lobbies and various interest groups. That’s how we ended up with these "expert" working groups.
2. We dove into American language studies, and I pointed out two linguistic absurdities that they actually plan to teach. Based on your posts, it seems like you deal with language in some capacity, so you should get why this is such a mess.
3. Using the "stool" metaphor to describe unselective, uncritical, populist reading material and analysis. And everything else written on the subject... the death of intellectual effort, etc. Etc.
4. Just going through the motions, like checking off project days...
5. Copying someone else's curriculum and kissing whatever ass is available...
All of this illustrates the problem. We could go on forever like this for every single subject, grade level, and domain..

And we could keep going... But the core issue is pure incompetence when it comes to something this serious.

And look, I didn't quit teaching. I quit the educational system. I'm not an educator, but maybe I'll become one once the heatwave passes.
Rachel Jones8 Rachel Jones8 Active Member
220 messages
joined Dec 2011
#467 ·
rowdypanther12 said:Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. I can't find a clear answer anywhere.

The Washington Post:

Regarding the standardized middle school exit exam, the consensus is yes. Beyond just simplifying high school admissions, it should serve as a benchmark for elementary school quality. Student performance really reflects teacher effectiveness—Fuchs points out, while also warning that launching such a program requires significant time and funding.

"If we started prep work now, we could have it implemented within two to three years," Fuchs concludes, noting that key reforms like a dual-track vocational system and restructuring the University of Bologna model are essential.
silentraven6 silentraven6 Regular
276 messages
joined Nov 2018
#468 ·
Hey everyone, please try to stay on topic here. I've moved all the posts about math and specific question-and-answer threads over to their own dedicated section.
swiftranger16 swiftranger16 Active Member
71 messages
joined Feb 2010
#469 ·
Is it cool if I post excerpts from books on the reading list suggested by the new education reform here?
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#470 ·
It'll be interesting to see how this reform plays out with such a tight budget
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#471 ·
rowdypanther12 said:It'll be interesting to see how this reform plays out with such a tight budget

It’s just going to become an excuse—an excuse to stall progress, justify laziness, or dodge implementation altogether.

The real mess is how people who didn't even have a hand in designing the reform are already tearing it apart.
All those loud headlines in the news and that whole circus during the first day of the legislative session really helped fuel the fire.

This whole thing about standardized testing feels like a bone thrown to the public just to watch everyone bark at each other like little puppies.
It’s distracting us from much more critical issues.
Take things like grading policies, or how we document student achievements (which, from what I hear, seems to be getting buried under layers of unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracy).

Some of that funding was supposed to come from federal grants.
I was actually hoping some of that would go toward hands-on vocational training—it makes so much sense to me—but instead, the burden will likely fall on parents. They'll probably end up having to chip in alongside the teachers, and once they realize they can't afford 😢, the whole idea will just fizzle out.
Or maybe we'll see a few small successes driven by a handful of enthusiasts in the better-funded school districts. 😢 😢 😢
swiftranger16 swiftranger16 Active Member
71 messages
joined Feb 2010
#472 ·
I honestly thought it was just about the bone too, until I hit that passage where the coach assaults the boy. Does that count as comparative analysis and cognitive suitability for students?
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#473 ·
Which grade level is this for?
Chloe Roberts2 Chloe Roberts2 Active Member
75 messages
joined Apr 2015
#474 ·
Is this actually about the kids from Athens...

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-djeca-patrasa
swiftranger16 swiftranger16 Active Member
71 messages
joined Feb 2010
#475 ·
Nah, that's Black Sea territory. It’s meant for high schoolers.
Summer, you really think grade level matters here? I honestly haven't been able to get it out of my head since I read it. Believe it or not, that text actually haunts me.
And there's more. This is easily the most extreme example I've stumbled upon while digging through books on my reading list that I hadn't touched before. Seriously. Just wow.
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#476 ·
Today at 2:00 PM, we had a guest over on Reformer.

It was a pretty good conversation—though, honestly, if the host were a bit more engaging, I think it would have been even better.
silentraven6 silentraven6 Regular
276 messages
joined Nov 2018
#477 ·
swiftranger16 said:Nah, that's Black Sea territory. It’s meant for high schoolers.
Summer, you really think grade level matters here? I honestly haven't been able to get it out of my head since I read it. Believe it or not, that text actually haunts me.
And there's more. This is easily the most extreme example I've stumbled upon while digging through books on my reading list that I hadn't touched before. Seriously. Just wow.

Did you actually finish the whole book? I don't see the issue with the descriptions; they serve as a solid starting point for talking to kids about boundaries—how to spot those kinds of intentions and how to fight back against them. I mean, the Iliad and the Odyssey are absolutely crawling with incest, assault, and murder. Even Judith slaying Holofernes involves her being sexually manipulated right before the act. What's the "lesson" in those classics then? That everything goes in war? These kids might actually get more out of Black Sea land in terms of maturing and learning to resist sexual abuse. It opens up a conversation that might touch on things many of them are personally dealing with. Maybe you'll even help one of them find the courage to report an abuser.

If someone had encouraged me to open up back then, my life might look a lot different today. If teachers understood how breaking a taboo can actually be healing—how they could use it to truly support their students—maybe my homeroom teacher would have actually responded to my essays once upon a time, instead of just fearfully noting that I had "too much imagination" or that she didn't understand what I was writing and that I should "tone down my expression."

We read The Glembays, The Registry, Crime and Punishment... they're all full of killers and twisted personalities and vivid, intense descriptions. We even have Louisa May Alcott in lower elementary grades... So what's the problem? Is it just facing the proximity of the taboo?

Chloe Roberts2 said:Is this actually about the kids from Athens...

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-djeca-patrasa

Nabokov?

Such a great work for comparative analysis and debate.
silentraven6 silentraven6 Regular
276 messages
joined Nov 2018
#478 ·
Susan James said:Today at 2:00 PM, we had a guest over on Reformer.

It was a pretty good conversation—though, honestly, if the host were a bit more engaging, I think it would have been even better.

I just finished watching, and I’m actually quite pleased with how it went. Still, though... I can't help but feel like none of this really changes anything. It feels like we aren't going to see any real progress in this country as long as people like Prosper or Novak are running the show.
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#479 ·
I really need to find some time to catch up on this; I accidentally slept through the broadcast 😢
Gary Taylor50 Gary Taylor50 Member
11 messages
joined Mar 2016
#480 ·
Aside from the required reading lists and English class, does anyone else have beef with this new curriculum? I’m talking to you, physics teachers, math nerds, chemists—what’s your take? And what about religious studies? Are they actually going to cut back on those hours, or are we still stuck with religious content bleeding into subjects where it has absolutely no business being?

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