School Reform: Thoughts?

I am incredibly frustrated with the state of education here in America. Working with all levels—elementary, middle, and high school—it honestly makes me feel sick to my stomach when I see the sheer scale of the issues we're facing. 🙂

If you asked for my opinion, I’d actually advocate for streaming students into different tracks after elementary school. It would prevent kids who are likely going to struggle with traditional academics their whole lives from being forced to grind through useless trivia in every single subject. It feels so pointless to make them memorize obscure grammar rules or facts about Mesopotamia. Honestly, just give me a break... It would be far more valuable if they learned how to actually use language correctly through real conversation and writing, rather than just rote memorization of textbook definitions.

As for the students who have the drive and the ability to go further, let them dive deep into everything. But even then, instead of just cramming facts that might be obsolete by next year, they should be taught how to research, how to analyze, and how to reach their own conclusions. We need to teach them how to think, not just what to remember.

The truth is, our schools are largely failing. There are exceptions, of course, but they are rare.

I was wondering if I could ask a bit more about how exactly you "work with all the schools across the US"?

Rachel Jones8 said:In fifth grade? 🤔
As far as I know (looking at the Swiss system), the actual split doesn't happen until seventh. They take a big exam in sixth grade to decide where everyone goes.
The crazy thing is that almost every kid in a wealthy neighborhood passes that test. It’s not because those kids are magically geniuses compared to kids from other parts of town; it’s just because their parents can afford private tutors and extra prep classes throughout sixth grade.

I am simply relaying information from a friend who lives over there; she graduated from that specific school system and is a US citizen herself. It apparently varies depending on the state.
They are in a district similar to Chicago—fifth grade, age 11. They sit for a test, but the most critical factor remains the teacher's qualitative evaluation and recommendation.

urbantinker8 said:I was wondering if I could ask a bit more about how exactly you "work with all the schools across the US"?

He probably handles the heating systems for 😂

analogseal18 said:I am simply relaying information from a friend who lives over there; she graduated from that specific school system and is a US citizen herself. It apparently varies depending on the state.
They are in a district similar to Chicago—fifth grade, age 11. They sit for a test, but the most critical factor remains the teacher's qualitative evaluation and recommendation.

Wait, so you're saying your entire future could depend on just one person? 😲

silentraven6 said:He probably handles the heating systems for 😂

🤷
I'm honestly just curious about it all.
I don't really see any harm in the accusative case or in Mesopotamia, I suppose.🤷

rowdypanther12 said:Wait, so you're saying your entire future could depend on just one person? 😲

Pretty much.😁
It's a similar setup to what they have in Germany, actually.
Compared to how we do things here in the States, they tend to steer kids toward specific paths quite early on, mostly based on their achievements and the input from teachers and parents, since kids around eleven or twelve years old don't exactly have a crystal-clear vision of what they want to do with their lives yet.

urbantinker8 said:🤷
I'm honestly just curious about it all.
I don't really see any harm in the accusative case or in Mesopotamia, I suppose.🤷

Pretty much.😁
It's a similar setup to what they have in Germany, actually.
Compared to how we do things here in the States, they tend to steer kids toward specific paths quite early on, mostly based on their achievements and the input from teachers and parents, since kids around eleven or twelve years old don't exactly have a crystal-clear vision of what they want to do with their lives yet.

Oh please, it's that "wicked" accusative and that cursed Mesopotamia that's ruining our kids, not the fact that parents are becoming increasingly disconnected from them...

In Germany, sure, they guide them early, but they have a system that isn't a life sentence. You can always move up, you can transfer to a better school, pass your exams, and just keep going. Here? If there's a way to advance, there might be one, but it feels so much harder when the whole system basically tells you that you're a failure for the rest of your life.

silentraven6 said:Oh please, it's that "wicked" accusative and that cursed Mesopotamia that's ruining our kids, not the fact that parents are becoming increasingly disconnected from them...

In Germany, sure, they guide them early, but they have a system that isn't a life sentence. You can always move up, you can transfer to a better school, pass your exams, and just keep going. Here? If there's a way to advance, there might be one, but it feels so much harder when the whole system basically tells you that you're a failure for the rest of your life.

Yeah, I suppose that’s true.
But even then, I suspect some of our parents wouldn't be all that thrilled with a system like that either.

urbantinker8 said:Yeah, I suppose that’s true.
But even then, I suspect some of our parents wouldn't be all that thrilled with a system like that either.

Personally? I’d actually be happy if my kid learned early on that everything in life comes from your own hard work and grit—that as long as you want to move up, the opportunity is always there if you put in the effort.

I did live in Germany for a little while, and I've kept in touch with people over there for a lifetime now. All I can say is that their way of doing things really works for me; it makes sense, and it’s genuinely motivating.

It feels a bit premature to me, though I think a more laid-back approach might have suited my personality better—I was actually a pretty solid student before puberty hit. 😂
That said, plenty of kids seem overly coached during those early elementary years, only to really find their footing later on.
Anyway, if you can still pivot your focus around age 15 or 16, the American school system isn't nearly as bad as I initially thought.

rowdypanther12 said:Wait, so you're saying your entire future could depend on just one person? 😲

One certainly maintains the right to appeal a teacher's recommendation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mastering grammar or history, yet I find myself questioning the wisdom of insisting on specific facts that certain students merely memorize superficially for a midterm only to forget them moments later. In our American school systems, one can clearly observe this glaring discrepancy between high letter grades and actual performance on standardized diagnostic tests.

For those particular children who possess no genuine interest in absorbing the curriculum, such academic requirements are little more than a waste of precious time—time that might be better utilized to solidify foundational knowledge they will carry for a lifetime, or perhaps to acquire practical skills. Should they not be focusing on learning a trade properly, becoming self-sufficient adults who are genuinely capable of earning their own living?

analogseal18 said:One certainly maintains the right to appeal a teacher's recommendation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mastering grammar or history, yet I find myself questioning the wisdom of insisting on specific facts that certain students merely memorize superficially for a midterm only to forget them moments later. In our American school systems, one can clearly observe this glaring discrepancy between high letter grades and actual performance on standardized diagnostic tests.

For those particular children who possess no genuine interest in absorbing the curriculum, such academic requirements are little more than a waste of precious time—time that might be better utilized to solidify foundational knowledge they will carry for a lifetime, or perhaps to acquire practical skills. Should they not be focusing on learning a trade properly, becoming self-sufficient adults who are genuinely capable of earning their own living?

Earning a living? Where?

If anything, that rote memorization might actually still hold some value out there in the workforce...

I agree that the system might be way too focused on general knowledge, but if we want to truly restructure education, we first have to restructure the labor market, enrollment quotas, jumpstart manufacturing, and address civic education—not to mention the national spirit...

Every four years, someone comes along in Washington to try these "aesthetic" reforms that never lead to anything meaningful; if anything, they usually make things worse. Just like everything else, really.

analogseal18 said:One certainly maintains the right to appeal a teacher's recommendation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mastering grammar or history, yet I find myself questioning the wisdom of insisting on specific facts that certain students merely memorize superficially for a midterm only to forget them moments later. In our American school systems, one can clearly observe this glaring discrepancy between high letter grades and actual performance on standardized diagnostic tests.

For those particular children who possess no genuine interest in absorbing the curriculum, such academic requirements are little more than a waste of precious time—time that might be better utilized to solidify foundational knowledge they will carry for a lifetime, or perhaps to acquire practical skills. Should they not be focusing on learning a trade properly, becoming self-sufficient adults who are genuinely capable of earning their own living?

I couldn't agree more.
It's honestly tragic how much interest students lose just sitting in a classroom memorizing useless facts. On top of that, the system sends them this message that they're failures just because their grades aren't perfect. They end up wanting to escape those schools because they feel so out of place, which leads them into various social services or counseling programs, making things even more complicated. Eventually, they might end up in alternative schools where they still end up cramming nonsense and picking career paths they have zero passion for.
Maybe they would have been interested if they had been engaged earlier, felt better about themselves, and actually felt curious about the world.

And don't even get me started on certain vocational programs; in my opinion, half of them shouldn't even exist.
Or rather, they only exist to keep certain job positions filled.
They don't follow the actual needs of the American job market, and the students get absolutely nothing out of them.

Since we’re already talking about "rote memorization," I think it would be helpful if you could clarify exactly what you mean by that.☕

Are we talking about multiplication tables?
Grammar rules and case endings?
Key dates from history class?
The chronological order of art movements?
Memorizing symbols from the periodic table?
Or maybe just learning vocabulary and verb conjugations in a foreign language?

🤷

It feels like everything just gets lumped into one big pile, and honestly, people tend to exaggerate whenever the topic of the American education system comes up.

I’m not saying textbooks aren't full of useless filler sometimes, but I feel like there's a massive overstatement regarding this idea of "cramming irrelevant facts," and it seems like a lot of people are just making assumptions without actually looking at how things work in a real classroom.
I suppose some things that many might dismiss as mere rote memorization are actually fundamental parts of a general culture.☕

And then you have the teachers. They’re all obsessed with shoving "general knowledge" down your throat, acting like their specific subject is the absolute center of the universe. God forbid you suggest otherwise; they take it as a personal insult.

Besides, who actually puts "general knowledge" on the dinner table? How much trivia is it going to help when you're trying to pay the electric bill?

Since we're being honest, at least half of what they teach is just rote memorization for stuff you'll never touch again. Our teachers always had the same tired excuses ready. In middle school, they’d say you need it for high school. Then in high school, it was for college. It was the same old song and dance with English, math, and history. Sure, maybe you might use a tiny fraction of it in college, but even then, you're just cramming it to pass an exam. Once you're out in the real world, none of it matters. That is the absolute tragedy of this entire education system.

It’s pretty much common knowledge what constitutes basic culture.

For a lot of people, having a grasp on it has actually put food on the table, assuming they knew how to leverage it at just the right moment and in the right setting.

So, I suppose your solution is technically correct—what exactly does that look like?

Are we talking about just keeping that 50% of the curriculum that you think might, I don't know, definitely come in handy somewhere later in life?
Do you honestly believe that's how curricula are structured in overseas school systems?

Maybe in a few specific cases they do, but then we’re talking about a highly specialized type of schooling starting from a very young age, which is probably something our parents wouldn't be too thrilled about.

My solution? Modernize the education system at any cost. That means finally scrapping this Prussian relic that belongs in the 19th century, not the 21st.

True modernization means teaching students how to actually find information, rather than forcing them to rot their brains memorizing facts that are available in any basic encyclopedia.
It also means getting rid of chalk and blackboards. We need smart boards, or even just an LCD projector—anything but this outdated junk that looks like it belongs on a steam locomotive.

Next, we need to shut down more than half of these useless vocational schools—mostly those training people for jobs like retail clerks, waiters, or photographers. These institutions exist solely so teachers have somewhere to collect a paycheck (I’m being intentional about saying "collect," not "work"). They feed kids the delusion that you can actually make a living from these roles, and they pretend these jobs require specialized expertise when, frankly, anyone can do them.

There's also the issue of negative selection. The education sector attracts people who have no idea what to do with their lives and are repelled by low wages. Given the quality of work being produced, they should honestly be paying themselves out of their own pockets just to show up.

Look, I'm not saying the teachers are entirely to blame; the curriculum itself is a disaster. But I still hold them responsible because they follow it, knowingly producing subpar results.

All this talk about "general culture" is nonsense. It doesn't solve anything; it just clouds the actual problem.

I suppose we don't even need to get into the whole debate about modernizing school equipment. It’s pretty much a given that this process should have been handled more efficiently a long time ago, though I doubt teachers are the ones to blame for the lack of funding.

As for that whole argument regarding rote memorization, I don't really see eye to eye with you on that one.
Whether you want to admit it or not, "memorizing" often serves as the necessary foundation for students to actually find data on their own and develop higher-level skills later on.

I mean, how else, in your opinion, would a second grader learn their multiplication tables?
How would anyone ever master irregular verbs when learning a foreign language?
Or deal with article declension in a language like German?

It seems to me that only after you've "memorized" those kinds of basics can you actually take the next step and start applying what you've learned to build specific skill sets.

Or are you going to tell me that half the population will never use a multiplication table, the present perfect in English, or an indefinite article in German ever again?
If that were actually the case, then that would be a pretty tragic reality—though, I guess, I don't know what kind of research you're basing that on.
I'm curious, then, what exactly falls into that group of yours—those people who supposedly never use anything they've learned in their lives.
If it isn't math or a foreign language... then what is it?🤷

You’re fixating on multiplication tables, thinking that mastering them will somehow pivot your entire approach to everything else. It won't. You can't just spin it that way.

My point is about useless data—stuff like the tributaries of the Amazon Rainforest in the USA, the GDP of Kenya, or listing out every single county in America. Sure, you might encounter some of that during twelve years of schooling, but that's it.

Obsessing over—or hunting for—that kind of trivia isn't "independent research." It's a sign you need psychiatric help. There is zero reason to seek out data that someone else memorized just to pass a test.

Math matters, sure. But not every single thing we do does.

There is simply no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution; which is precisely why I find myself advocating for the relatively early separation of students based on their specific learning inclinations and innate aptitudes.

In my estimation, we don't suffer from an excessive accumulation of useless trivia, yet we certainly encounter students who have absolutely no interest in granular details. Would it not be more efficient if we offered distinct curricula—let's call them Path A and Path B—with separate classrooms and advanced coursework for those destined for vocational training? Such students would cover less ground overall, but they would master the essential pillars of general knowledge thoroughly while freeing up time for, say, four hours of technical training and four hours of physical education (for heaven's sake, let children burn off some energy). Is it not far better, and arguably much more useful, to be a highly skilled carpenter than a mediocre lawyer?

I might point to a particularly popular and rigorous vocational track as an example—take a specialized business high school, for instance. These institutions graduate students who lack a broad general education but possess a solid enough foundation to pursue an economics degree, though they often find themselves unable to pivot elsewhere. Furthermore, they struggle to enter the workforce immediately. By the time they receive their diploma, shouldn't they at least possess the proficiency required to work as an independent bookkeeper?

Regarding the restructuring of the labor market—while I am by no means diminishing the role of the government in this process—certain sectors are inherently self-regulating, particularly within the trades. If we actually produced young people with high-quality expertise, they would undoubtedly find placement. Think of it as a modern apprenticeship model under the guidance of those few master craftsmen who have managed to survive. As things stand now, nobody is hiring them, and they lack both the agency and the skill to succeed on their own.

As for tablets and smartboards... 🤣 they are not the essence of education. The true cornerstones are the teachers and realistically designed curricula—plans that actually lead toward a meaningful objective.

Rote memorization... well, that depends entirely on how one defines the term. One could learn German conjugations through practical, real-world examples, or perhaps through songs and simple, humorous verses; that is how retention actually happens. Take the multiplication table, for example; it isn't something you should just memorize blindly. I sat with my daughter, and she mastered it in record time by working backward through prime factorization. That, to me, represents a genuine understanding of the relationships between numbers.