School Reform: Thoughts?

I’m just pointing out things that actually happen in real classrooms, whereas the scenarios you’re bringing up feel like these exaggerated extremes that I doubt any student is actually being forced to memorize.
Aside from the specific counties here in the US, I know that kind of geography is usually part of the curriculum, but I don't really see the crisis you're making of it.
I mean, Germans have to learn their federal states, Austrians deal with their provinces, the Swiss have to know their cantons, and even Americans have to keep track of the states, so I honestly don't see why it's such a catastrophe if our students learn their own counties.
The world certainly wouldn't stop spinning if they skipped it, but I don't think it's some unforgivable sin of the American education system.

And sure, I suppose "rote memorization" of certain facts is definitely a necessary foundation for building more complex skills later on.
For instance, you can't really communicate effectively in a foreign language unless you've first internalized the basics of grammar, spelling, and core vocabulary.
And according to your logic, there is plenty of "memorizing" involved there, because at the end of the day, a foreign language is exactly that—a foreign language.

analogseal18 said:There is simply no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution; which is precisely why I find myself advocating for the relatively early separation of students based on their specific learning inclinations and innate aptitudes.

In my estimation, we don't suffer from an excessive accumulation of useless trivia, yet we certainly encounter students who have absolutely no interest in granular details. Would it not be more efficient if we offered distinct curricula—let's call them Path A and Path B—with separate classrooms and advanced coursework for those destined for vocational training? Such students would cover less ground overall, but they would master the essential pillars of general knowledge thoroughly while freeing up time for, say, four hours of technical training and four hours of physical education (for heaven's sake, let children burn off some energy). Is it not far better, and arguably much more useful, to be a highly skilled carpenter than a mediocre lawyer?

I might point to a particularly popular and rigorous vocational track as an example—take a specialized business high school, for instance. These institutions graduate students who lack a broad general education but possess a solid enough foundation to pursue an economics degree, though they often find themselves unable to pivot elsewhere. Furthermore, they struggle to enter the workforce immediately. By the time they receive their diploma, shouldn't they at least possess the proficiency required to work as an independent bookkeeper?

Regarding the restructuring of the labor market—while I am by no means diminishing the role of the government in this process—certain sectors are inherently self-regulating, particularly within the trades. If we actually produced young people with high-quality expertise, they would undoubtedly find placement. Think of it as a modern apprenticeship model under the guidance of those few master craftsmen who have managed to survive. As things stand now, nobody is hiring them, and they lack both the agency and the skill to succeed on their own.

As for tablets and smartboards... 🤣 they are not the essence of education. The true cornerstones are the teachers and realistically designed curricula—plans that actually lead toward a meaningful objective.

Rote memorization... well, that depends entirely on how one defines the term. One could learn German conjugations through practical, real-world examples, or perhaps through songs and simple, humorous verses; that is how retention actually happens. Take the multiplication table, for example; it isn't something you should just memorize blindly. I sat with my daughter, and she mastered it in record time by working backward through prime factorization. That, to me, represents a genuine understanding of the relationships between numbers.

If that were ever proposed, I imagine parents would kick up an even bigger fuss, probably accusing the entire school system of discriminating against their children.
I mean, just picture a fourth-grade teacher suggesting to a parent today that their kid should probably head toward a career in plumbing.😲
Kids are still forming who they are, you know? Their interests shift, their work habits change...
It would be an absolute scandal.☕

analogseal18 said:There is simply no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution; which is precisely why I find myself advocating for the relatively early separation of students based on their specific learning inclinations and innate aptitudes.

In my estimation, we don't suffer from an excessive accumulation of useless trivia, yet we certainly encounter students who have absolutely no interest in granular details. Would it not be more efficient if we offered distinct curricula—let's call them Path A and Path B—with separate classrooms and advanced coursework for those destined for vocational training? Such students would cover less ground overall, but they would master the essential pillars of general knowledge thoroughly while freeing up time for, say, four hours of technical training and four hours of physical education (for heaven's sake, let children burn off some energy). Is it not far better, and arguably much more useful, to be a highly skilled carpenter than a mediocre lawyer?

I might point to a particularly popular and rigorous vocational track as an example—take a specialized business high school, for instance. These institutions graduate students who lack a broad general education but possess a solid enough foundation to pursue an economics degree, though they often find themselves unable to pivot elsewhere. Furthermore, they struggle to enter the workforce immediately. By the time they receive their diploma, shouldn't they at least possess the proficiency required to work as an independent bookkeeper?

Regarding the restructuring of the labor market—while I am by no means diminishing the role of the government in this process—certain sectors are inherently self-regulating, particularly within the trades. If we actually produced young people with high-quality expertise, they would undoubtedly find placement. Think of it as a modern apprenticeship model under the guidance of those few master craftsmen who have managed to survive. As things stand now, nobody is hiring them, and they lack both the agency and the skill to succeed on their own.

As for tablets and smartboards... 🤣 they are not the essence of education. The true cornerstones are the teachers and realistically designed curricula—plans that actually lead toward a meaningful objective.

Rote memorization... well, that depends entirely on how one defines the term. One could learn German conjugations through practical, real-world examples, or perhaps through songs and simple, humorous verses; that is how retention actually happens. Take the multiplication table, for example; it isn't something you should just memorize blindly. I sat with my daughter, and she mastered it in record time by working backward through prime factorization. That, to me, represents a genuine understanding of the relationships between numbers.

Only a small subset of kids can pick up conjugations or declensions deductively from real-life examples, like watching TV or listening to music. And I’m not talking about English here, since, well, English practically lacks those kinds of declensions and conjugations anyway.😛
Most kids really need the rule explained first, along with a chart showing examples across all persons and cases, and only once they've internalized that can they start applying those same rules to similar verbs or nouns of the same gender.

As for the multiplication table...🤣
I mean, good for you, but I truly think it’s easier for the average eighth grader to just memorize the table itself rather than starting with prime factorization.
Let's not get too carried away.😉

When I talk about rote memorization, I’m not really referring to things like reciting poems by heart or mastering grammar rules or multiplication tables. Those are actually just exercises in memory retention and mnemonic skills, which are super important for future learning.

What I meant was more about those teachers who demand that you answer questions based purely on what you've memorized word-for-word.

A lot of people get upset when I say that if you just cram a lesson to recite it back, you’re looking at a C at best. I see that grade as a way to encourage students to realize that this kind of "learning"—which is usually just driven by pressure from parents—isn't actually acceptable. If you get a D, though, that’s for the ones who, after being shown exactly where they went wrong, still try to argue that they knew everything and said everything perfectly, and wouldn't even let you interrupt them to clarify things.

silentraven6 said:When I talk about rote memorization, I’m not really referring to things like reciting poems by heart or mastering grammar rules or multiplication tables. Those are actually just exercises in memory retention and mnemonic skills, which are super important for future learning.

What I meant was more about those teachers who demand that you answer questions based purely on what you've memorized word-for-word.

A lot of people get upset when I say that if you just cram a lesson to recite it back, you’re looking at a C at best. I see that grade as a way to encourage students to realize that this kind of "learning"—which is usually just driven by pressure from parents—isn't actually acceptable. If you get a D, though, that’s for the ones who, after being shown exactly where they went wrong, still try to argue that they knew everything and said everything perfectly, and wouldn't even let you interrupt them to clarify things.

I'm actually in complete agreement with you; I wasn't even asking for your opinion on what constitutes rote learning😁 but rather addressing the others who toss that term around without being entirely sure of its scope, or whether "memorizing" is even a relevant concept in certain subjects.
Then we end up with these totally exaggerated, imaginary examples, like trying to memorize the average annual rainfall in Bangladesh or the GDP of Uganda.

Man, those damn exam questions... My professor handed me a failing grade just because I couldn't remember the name of the horse on the Josip Jelačić statue. It’s ridiculous. And honestly? The older generation doesn't even realize he was being sarcastic when he asked it—they don't even know when World War I actually kicked off.

Angela Wright4 said:I am incredibly frustrated with the state of education here in America. Working with all levels—elementary, middle, and high school—it honestly makes me feel sick to my stomach when I see the sheer scale of the issues we're facing. 🙂

If you asked for my opinion, I’d actually advocate for streaming students into different tracks after elementary school. It would prevent kids who are likely going to struggle with traditional academics their whole lives from being forced to grind through useless trivia in every single subject. It feels so pointless to make them memorize obscure grammar rules or facts about Mesopotamia. Honestly, just give me a break... It would be far more valuable if they learned how to actually use language correctly through real conversation and writing, rather than just rote memorization of textbook definitions.

As for the students who have the drive and the ability to go further, let them dive deep into everything. But even then, instead of just cramming facts that might be obsolete by next year, they should be taught how to research, how to analyze, and how to reach their own conclusions. We need to teach them how to think, not just what to remember.

The truth is, our schools are largely failing. There are exceptions, of course, but they are rare.

sorry, in my county alone, there are about 50 schools

urbantinker8 said:Since we’re already talking about "rote memorization," I think it would be helpful if you could clarify exactly what you mean by that.☕

Are we talking about multiplication tables?
Grammar rules and case endings?
Key dates from history class?
The chronological order of art movements?
Memorizing symbols from the periodic table?
Or maybe just learning vocabulary and verb conjugations in a foreign language?

🤷

It feels like everything just gets lumped into one big pile, and honestly, people tend to exaggerate whenever the topic of the American education system comes up.

I’m not saying textbooks aren't full of useless filler sometimes, but I feel like there's a massive overstatement regarding this idea of "cramming irrelevant facts," and it seems like a lot of people are just making assumptions without actually looking at how things work in a real classroom.
I suppose some things that many might dismiss as mere rote memorization are actually fundamental parts of a general culture.☕

Honestly, it feels completely pointless to me. Why are we teaching kids these things when they’re just going to end up spending their entire lives painting walls or working on a factory assembly line once they hit seventeen...

And I’m lucky enough to work with kids (no, I’m not a plumber)... 🙂 I work with people at every single level, even those who have already finished their formal schooling—they come to me for one-on-one sessions, group workshops, or whatever else they might need... 🙂 I've been following them for years... and I'm not just talking for clout; this is my actual profession... 🙂
I also work in parallel with their instructors, specialists, and principals. In other words, I actually know them personally, and we have regular conversations...
And then I find myself sitting there, just watching and comparing everything. It’s honestly terrifying to witness... and deeply, deeply saddening.

What bothers me most is walking into a school building and having that intrusive thought creep in: if I were actually unhinged, I could just... plant a bomb, and nobody would ever suspect a thing. Do you know what I mean? Just total isolation. There’s absolutely no one around. Honestly, the people who constantly try to save on electricity drive me crazy—I walk into a classroom and it’s pitch black. Well, more like semi-darkness. It feels more like shadow than light... and then you have the kids just babbling away right before the bell rings... good grief...

And then it happens all over again—I walk into these schools, and they immediately hit me with, "May I see some ID, please?" Honestly, it’s such a hassle... though, I suppose I'd rather deal with that than walk into a school building and find absolutely nobody stationed at the entrance...

Angela Wright4 said:Honestly, it feels completely pointless to me. Why are we teaching kids these things when they’re just going to end up spending their entire lives painting walls or working on a factory assembly line once they hit seventeen...

And I’m lucky enough to work with kids (no, I’m not a plumber)... 🙂 I work with people at every single level, even those who have already finished their formal schooling—they come to me for one-on-one sessions, group workshops, or whatever else they might need... 🙂 I've been following them for years... and I'm not just talking for clout; this is my actual profession... 🙂
I also work in parallel with their instructors, specialists, and principals. In other words, I actually know them personally, and we have regular conversations...
And then I find myself sitting there, just watching and comparing everything. It’s honestly terrifying to witness... and deeply, deeply saddening.

What bothers me most is walking into a school building and having that intrusive thought creep in: if I were actually unhinged, I could just... plant a bomb, and nobody would ever suspect a thing. Do you know what I mean? Just total isolation. There’s absolutely no one around. Honestly, the people who constantly try to save on electricity drive me crazy—I walk into a classroom and it’s pitch black. Well, more like semi-darkness. It feels more like shadow than light... and then you have the kids just babbling away right before the bell rings... good grief...

And then it happens all over again—I walk into these schools, and they immediately hit me with, "May I see some ID, please?" Honestly, it’s such a hassle... though, I suppose I'd rather deal with that than walk into a school building and find absolutely nobody stationed at the entrance...

So, I guess, what do you think every kid actually needs to know after finishing elementary school?
Since elementary school is mandatory, obviously.
I mean, truth be told, some of the examples I mentioned earlier are pulled from high school curriculum, so maybe they don't really apply to those kids who decide after 8th grade that they aren't interested in "cramming" anything and just want to go start a trade.

Angela Wright4 said:Honestly, it feels completely pointless to me. Why are we teaching kids these things when they’re just going to end up spending their entire lives painting walls or working on a factory assembly line once they hit seventeen...

And I’m lucky enough to work with kids (no, I’m not a plumber)... 🙂 I work with people at every single level, even those who have already finished their formal schooling—they come to me for one-on-one sessions, group workshops, or whatever else they might need... 🙂 I've been following them for years... and I'm not just talking for clout; this is my actual profession... 🙂
I also work in parallel with their instructors, specialists, and principals. In other words, I actually know them personally, and we have regular conversations...
And then I find myself sitting there, just watching and comparing everything. It’s honestly terrifying to witness... and deeply, deeply saddening.

What bothers me most is walking into a school building and having that intrusive thought creep in: if I were actually unhinged, I could just... plant a bomb, and nobody would ever suspect a thing. Do you know what I mean? Just total isolation. There’s absolutely no one around. Honestly, the people who constantly try to save on electricity drive me crazy—I walk into a classroom and it’s pitch black. Well, more like semi-darkness. It feels more like shadow than light... and then you have the kids just babbling away right before the bell rings... good grief...

And then it happens all over again—I walk into these schools, and they immediately hit me with, "May I see some ID, please?" Honestly, it’s such a hassle... though, I suppose I'd rather deal with that than walk into a school building and find absolutely nobody stationed at the entrance...

What exactly is so terrifying and sad to you?

Angela Wright4 said:Honestly, it feels completely pointless to me. Why are we teaching kids these things when they’re just going to end up spending their entire lives painting walls or working on a factory assembly line once they hit seventeen...

And I’m lucky enough to work with kids (no, I’m not a plumber)... 🙂 I work with people at every single level, even those who have already finished their formal schooling—they come to me for one-on-one sessions, group workshops, or whatever else they might need... 🙂 I've been following them for years... and I'm not just talking for clout; this is my actual profession... 🙂
I also work in parallel with their instructors, specialists, and principals. In other words, I actually know them personally, and we have regular conversations...
And then I find myself sitting there, just watching and comparing everything. It’s honestly terrifying to witness... and deeply, deeply saddening.

What bothers me most is walking into a school building and having that intrusive thought creep in: if I were actually unhinged, I could just... plant a bomb, and nobody would ever suspect a thing. Do you know what I mean? Just total isolation. There’s absolutely no one around. Honestly, the people who constantly try to save on electricity drive me crazy—I walk into a classroom and it’s pitch black. Well, more like semi-darkness. It feels more like shadow than light... and then you have the kids just babbling away right before the bell rings... good grief...

And then it happens all over again—I walk into these schools, and they immediately hit me with, "May I see some ID, please?" Honestly, it’s such a hassle... though, I suppose I'd rather deal with that than walk into a school building and find absolutely nobody stationed at the entrance...

No.☕

What do you mean, dark? Dim? Who on earth is trying to save on electricity?

And what is wrong with someone asking for your ID when you walk into a school full of minors as an unknown adult??😕
Should we just allow anyone off the street to wander through schools whenever and however they please?
On the other hand, I suppose it isn't exactly normal either when nobody asks you for anything at the door.
What's your solution, then?

Are there things that don'tDo they actually cause issues within the education system?

People really ought to master the basics of everyday language—being able to express themselves clearly and articulate an actual opinion without stumbling over their words.

I am honestly terrified by the sheer negligence and apathy shown by certain teachers and staff members. They seem to operate under this delusion that they are untouchable, acting as if their specific subject matter is just as vital as every single comma and period in their textbooks... It’s almost laughable when they send me these formal notices insisting that I absolutely must schedule a presentation at their school (as if it were a mandate), yet they claim they can't accommodate me during regular class hours because those shouldn't be "disturbed" this year, while simultaneously stressing how much they desperately need me to show up...

It’s a strange feeling. You look out the window, maybe see some gray clouds rolling in over the suburbs, and then you walk into the building only to find the lights dimmed and the main entrance completely deserted. I know the layouts of most of these districts by now, so I know where I'm headed, but in the early days, I used to wander aimlessly through the hallways, checking door signs one by one just to figure out who was located where... searching for an office just to ask for someone's room number. You can't even catch a janitor in the halls, let alone anyone else.
I find it deeply unsettling.

And as for the security protocols... I don't know. If having a check-in process is standard, fine, but then it should be implemented across the board. Right now, it’s only happening in about two out of the fifty schools I work with. This means that in most schools in my county, someone could essentially wander the halls unnoticed. It's only in a handful of locations that you actually find a staff member stationed at the entrance.

The only thing that truly matters here is the children.

It honestly bothers me that some people graduate from college and are barely literate, if that.
To me, that should be one of the core responsibilities of elementary school. Beyond just basic math, students need a solid grasp of geography and history. To even pass, you really need to be able to read and write properly. You don't need to know what an alliteration or a pleonasm is, but you definitely shouldn't be misspelling basic words.

Angela Wright4 said:People really ought to master the basics of everyday language—being able to express themselves clearly and articulate an actual opinion without stumbling over their words.

I am honestly terrified by the sheer negligence and apathy shown by certain teachers and staff members. They seem to operate under this delusion that they are untouchable, acting as if their specific subject matter is just as vital as every single comma and period in their textbooks... It’s almost laughable when they send me these formal notices insisting that I absolutely must schedule a presentation at their school (as if it were a mandate), yet they claim they can't accommodate me during regular class hours because those shouldn't be "disturbed" this year, while simultaneously stressing how much they desperately need me to show up...

It’s a strange feeling. You look out the window, maybe see some gray clouds rolling in over the suburbs, and then you walk into the building only to find the lights dimmed and the main entrance completely deserted. I know the layouts of most of these districts by now, so I know where I'm headed, but in the early days, I used to wander aimlessly through the hallways, checking door signs one by one just to figure out who was located where... searching for an office just to ask for someone's room number. You can't even catch a janitor in the halls, let alone anyone else.
I find it deeply unsettling.

And as for the security protocols... I don't know. If having a check-in process is standard, fine, but then it should be implemented across the board. Right now, it’s only happening in about two out of the fifty schools I work with. This means that in most schools in my county, someone could essentially wander the halls unnoticed. It's only in a handful of locations that you actually find a staff member stationed at the entrance.

The only thing that truly matters here is the children.

And is that really all they’re supposed to pick up after eight years of schooling?😕
If that were actually the case, it would be pretty tragic, I guess.
My three-and-a-half-year-old son already knows how to pronounce words properly, explain things coherently, and state his own mind.
So, am I just supposed to drop him off for first grade and assume learning how to spell is enough for the whole journey?

Angela Wright4 said:People really ought to master the basics of everyday language—being able to express themselves clearly and articulate an actual opinion without stumbling over their words.

I am honestly terrified by the sheer negligence and apathy shown by certain teachers and staff members. They seem to operate under this delusion that they are untouchable, acting as if their specific subject matter is just as vital as every single comma and period in their textbooks... It’s almost laughable when they send me these formal notices insisting that I absolutely must schedule a presentation at their school (as if it were a mandate), yet they claim they can't accommodate me during regular class hours because those shouldn't be "disturbed" this year, while simultaneously stressing how much they desperately need me to show up...

It’s a strange feeling. You look out the window, maybe see some gray clouds rolling in over the suburbs, and then you walk into the building only to find the lights dimmed and the main entrance completely deserted. I know the layouts of most of these districts by now, so I know where I'm headed, but in the early days, I used to wander aimlessly through the hallways, checking door signs one by one just to figure out who was located where... searching for an office just to ask for someone's room number. You can't even catch a janitor in the halls, let alone anyone else.
I find it deeply unsettling.

And as for the security protocols... I don't know. If having a check-in process is standard, fine, but then it should be implemented across the board. Right now, it’s only happening in about two out of the fifty schools I work with. This means that in most schools in my county, someone could essentially wander the halls unnoticed. It's only in a handful of locations that you actually find a staff member stationed at the entrance.

The only thing that truly matters here is the children.

I always did love a good generalization.
Like, "every teacher is useless" or "all children are perfect."🙄

Besides, one should probably realize that it's the Department of Education, not the teachers or principals, who forbids disrupting classes.
There are specific requirements for weekly, monthly, and annual instructional hours that have to be met.
No matter how important, engaging, or useful your presentations might be, they simply have to take place when school isn't in session.😉
At my school, presentations and workshops are held exclusively in the evenings, on Saturdays, or during non-instructional days, like holidays.

And I really can't wrap my head around which districts have schools so dark and seemingly untouchable that they become easy targets for intruders.

Security check-ins at the door are mandatory; if that isn't happening somewhere, someone should probably have a word with the principal.

rowdypanther12 said:It honestly bothers me that some people graduate from college and are barely literate, if that.
To me, that should be one of the core responsibilities of elementary school. Beyond just basic math, students need a solid grasp of geography and history. To even pass, you really need to be able to read and write properly. You don't need to know what an alliteration or a pleonasm is, but you definitely shouldn't be misspelling basic words.

But honestly, I don't think you can really point the finger at the education system for that.🤷

But it’s necessary. Someone let them graduate elementary school with decent enough grades to get into a good high school, and then someone else cleared them to head off to college based on those grades.
I'm talking about people who can't even spell "children" correctly, write with a chip on their shoulder, and constantly butcher basic grammar. It's the kind of stuff you see all over the internet.
The same goes for actual knowledge—there are just huge gaps in understanding across almost every subject.
It's much more important to actually grasp the underlying causes behind things like World War I or II—like how political shifts impact science and the arts—than it is to just memorize a single date by heart.

urbantinker8 said:And is that really all they’re supposed to pick up after eight years of schooling?😕
If that were actually the case, it would be pretty tragic, I guess.
My three-and-a-half-year-old son already knows how to pronounce words properly, explain things coherently, and state his own mind.
So, am I just supposed to drop him off for first grade and assume learning how to spell is enough for the whole journey?

I always did love a good generalization.
Like, "every teacher is useless" or "all children are perfect."🙄

Besides, one should probably realize that it's the Department of Education, not the teachers or principals, who forbids disrupting classes.
There are specific requirements for weekly, monthly, and annual instructional hours that have to be met.
No matter how important, engaging, or useful your presentations might be, they simply have to take place when school isn't in session.😉
At my school, presentations and workshops are held exclusively in the evenings, on Saturdays, or during non-instructional days, like holidays.

And I really can't wrap my head around which districts have schools so dark and seemingly untouchable that they become easy targets for intruders.

Security check-ins at the door are mandatory; if that isn't happening somewhere, someone should probably have a word with the principal.

If a topic is already officially part of the curriculum, I would assume there’s enough flexibility to schedule it whenever the instructor is actually available. Most parents can't make it in the afternoon because the transit options just aren't there... even our parent-teacher conferences are held during the morning shift to accommodate everyone.

After ten years in the classroom, I’ve learned that there are almost always extra hours left over at the end of the school year. Because of that, missing just one hour during my entire teaching tenure—especially when working in a group setting—doesn't feel like a major disruption to the curriculum. Besides, these adjustments are often baked right into the state-mandated syllabus and the overall academic curriculum anyway...

Kids... they're mostly just wonderful...
Parents... what can I even say? I find myself thinking, more often than I should probably admit, "poor kids"...
School staff... honestly, I’d be more inclined to give them a minus than a plus most days. If you ever step foot in one of those rural district schools, you’ll see exactly what I mean—they’re practically lounging around in sweatpants. It’s especially jarring when they start discussing curriculum or instructional matters while looking like they’re headed to the gym... Then you have the specialists who only bother showing up once the morning rush of dropping kids off at daycare or preschool is over, usually strolling in around 9:00 AM. And the principal? They just seem perfectly fine with it. Even when the principal heads home to whip up lunch and then wanders back to the office, it’s all supposedly "on the clock." Please, don't think for a second that I'm exaggerating or trying to make things sound more dramatic than they actually are. At the end of the day, I am just a mother watching my wonderful boy navigate the same educational system that his peers across all of America deal with. This isn't even his specific school, and the staff there aren't necessarily better or worse than anyone else's... it just hits closer to home for me because I know exactly how the gears turn behind the scenes. I even worked at that very school for a while...

Maybe I’m not expressing myself quite right—I know I tend to repeat myself, using terms like "constantly" or "frequently"—but when you spend year after year working with hundreds, actually thousands of people, those heavy negatives just seem to follow you everywhere. They are impossible to miss, and there truly are so many of them. Meanwhile, the genuinely good people in our school systems don't really stand out; they don't make much noise. I know they're out there, of course, but it's the "bad" ones who always grab the headlines... that’s just how I see things...

Just because your child—and mine—is being raised with a decent sense of values and solid role models doesn't mean everyone else is getting that same treatment. I’m telling you this as someone who works in education: you only see what's happening within the walls of your own school district. In my line of work, I interact with over a thousand elementary schoolers, both individually and in groups, and honestly... the overall impression I get is nothing short of terrifying. From basic literacy to a total lack of fundamental life knowledge, it's a mess. And please don't ask me for specific examples. It's the general lack of common sense—like kids thinking they don't even need to get out of bed if something is less than four inches away from them, or their complete inability to navigate a simple directory... things like that...
People generally struggle much more with expressing themselves clearly in writing than they do when speaking...

rowdypanther12 said:But it’s necessary. Someone let them graduate elementary school with decent enough grades to get into a good high school, and then someone else cleared them to head off to college based on those grades.
I'm talking about people who can't even spell "children" correctly, write with a chip on their shoulder, and constantly butcher basic grammar. It's the kind of stuff you see all over the internet.
The same goes for actual knowledge—there are just huge gaps in understanding across almost every subject.
It's much more important to actually grasp the underlying causes behind things like World War I or II—like how political shifts impact science and the arts—than it is to just memorize a single date by heart.

Sure, maybe they coasted through middle school and high school, but let's be realistic—you can't exactly expect a student to fail an entire grade just because they don't know the difference between "its" and "it's." 🤷
Maybe at some point (at the latest during summer school😁), they actually know all their other basic fundamentals, so they somehow manage to scrape by with a D in English.

What I eventually find myself blaming about the system in this specific context are two things:
1. This unwritten rule where kids don't really fail grades in elementary school because apparently that’s "not pedagogical."🙄
2. The way standardized testing works today, where the questions at the lower levels feel almost trivial while the passing threshold sits at a measly 20-30%.

But honestly, both of those are just results of outside pressure, like the constant complaining from parents and students regarding the school system.
That’s just the struggle we've been handed.😁

Angela Wright4 said:If a topic is already officially part of the curriculum, I would assume there’s enough flexibility to schedule it whenever the instructor is actually available. Most parents can't make it in the afternoon because the transit options just aren't there... even our parent-teacher conferences are held during the morning shift to accommodate everyone.

After ten years in the classroom, I’ve learned that there are almost always extra hours left over at the end of the school year. Because of that, missing just one hour during my entire teaching tenure—especially when working in a group setting—doesn't feel like a major disruption to the curriculum. Besides, these adjustments are often baked right into the state-mandated syllabus and the overall academic curriculum anyway...

Kids... they're mostly just wonderful...
Parents... what can I even say? I find myself thinking, more often than I should probably admit, "poor kids"...
School staff... honestly, I’d be more inclined to give them a minus than a plus most days. If you ever step foot in one of those rural district schools, you’ll see exactly what I mean—they’re practically lounging around in sweatpants. It’s especially jarring when they start discussing curriculum or instructional matters while looking like they’re headed to the gym... Then you have the specialists who only bother showing up once the morning rush of dropping kids off at daycare or preschool is over, usually strolling in around 9:00 AM. And the principal? They just seem perfectly fine with it. Even when the principal heads home to whip up lunch and then wanders back to the office, it’s all supposedly "on the clock." Please, don't think for a second that I'm exaggerating or trying to make things sound more dramatic than they actually are. At the end of the day, I am just a mother watching my wonderful boy navigate the same educational system that his peers across all of America deal with. This isn't even his specific school, and the staff there aren't necessarily better or worse than anyone else's... it just hits closer to home for me because I know exactly how the gears turn behind the scenes. I even worked at that very school for a while...

Maybe I’m not expressing myself quite right—I know I tend to repeat myself, using terms like "constantly" or "frequently"—but when you spend year after year working with hundreds, actually thousands of people, those heavy negatives just seem to follow you everywhere. They are impossible to miss, and there truly are so many of them. Meanwhile, the genuinely good people in our school systems don't really stand out; they don't make much noise. I know they're out there, of course, but it's the "bad" ones who always grab the headlines... that’s just how I see things...

Just because your child—and mine—is being raised with a decent sense of values and solid role models doesn't mean everyone else is getting that same treatment. I’m telling you this as someone who works in education: you only see what's happening within the walls of your own school district. In my line of work, I interact with over a thousand elementary schoolers, both individually and in groups, and honestly... the overall impression I get is nothing short of terrifying. From basic literacy to a total lack of fundamental life knowledge, it's a mess. And please don't ask me for specific examples. It's the general lack of common sense—like kids thinking they don't even need to get out of bed if something is less than four inches away from them, or their complete inability to navigate a simple directory... things like that...
People generally struggle much more with expressing themselves clearly in writing than they do when speaking...

I don't think you're making things up, but I have to admit, it feels a little insulting when it implies that all of us teachers are cut from the same cloth.
I’ve worked at several different schools, ranging from elementary to high school, and I’ve never shown up to work in sweatpants, been late to class, left early, or spent an entire period just chatting about my personal life to kill time.
But, I suppose it makes sense that the "bad" ones are much more conspicuous, so people rarely ever talk about the "good" ones.

Regarding the required teaching hours, I should probably mention that at my school, we always struggle to hit the target number by the end of the year. So many hours get lost to holidays, school events, various projects, field trips, graduation activities, or just people calling in sick...
Because of that, we never really had the luxury of holding lectures during instructional time.

And I feel like I should comment on that last part of yours.🙂
That notion—that it isn't worth getting out of bed for anything less than four inches—is a perspective that students bring exclusively from their homes.😉
I doubt any teacher would pass on a worldview where they wouldn't bother putting in any effort for anything slightly larger than four inches.😉
I can't tell you how many times students have asked me why I even bother trying with them for such a meager salary, or why I don't just go find some better-paying job elsewhere.

But urbantinker8, we’re talking about students who are clearly passing with straight As and Bs! That’s the whole point. If they’ve managed to graduate from college, you have to assume they weren't scraping by with Ds in middle school or failing everything in high school. You know? It’s just frustrating because kids are getting these top-tier grades despite having almost no basic literacy skills.

And one more thing—since when did nobody fail anymore? I feel like I’ve asked this so many times before. When did this unwritten rule start? Back when I was in school in the early '90s, and even when my sister was in school in the late '90s, people definitely failed classes back then.

urbantinker8 said:Sure, maybe they coasted through middle school and high school, but let's be realistic—you can't exactly expect a student to fail an entire grade just because they don't know the difference between "its" and "it's." 🤷
Maybe at some point (at the latest during summer school😁), they actually know all their other basic fundamentals, so they somehow manage to scrape by with a D in English.

What I eventually find myself blaming about the system in this specific context are two things:
1. This unwritten rule where kids don't really fail grades in elementary school because apparently that’s "not pedagogical."🙄
2. The way standardized testing works today, where the questions at the lower levels feel almost trivial while the passing threshold sits at a measly 20-30%.

But honestly, both of those are just results of outside pressure, like the constant complaining from parents and students regarding the school system.
That’s just the struggle we've been handed.😁

I don't think you're making things up, but I have to admit, it feels a little insulting when it implies that all of us teachers are cut from the same cloth.
I’ve worked at several different schools, ranging from elementary to high school, and I’ve never shown up to work in sweatpants, been late to class, left early, or spent an entire period just chatting about my personal life to kill time.
But, I suppose it makes sense that the "bad" ones are much more conspicuous, so people rarely ever talk about the "good" ones.

Regarding the required teaching hours, I should probably mention that at my school, we always struggle to hit the target number by the end of the year. So many hours get lost to holidays, school events, various projects, field trips, graduation activities, or just people calling in sick...
Because of that, we never really had the luxury of holding lectures during instructional time.

And I feel like I should comment on that last part of yours.🙂
That notion—that it isn't worth getting out of bed for anything less than four inches—is a perspective that students bring exclusively from their homes.😉
I doubt any teacher would pass on a worldview where they wouldn't bother putting in any effort for anything slightly larger than four inches.😉
I can't tell you how many times students have asked me why I even bother trying with them for such a meager salary, or why I don't just go find some better-paying job elsewhere.

This right here? This is the bedrock of our failing education system, this country, everything!!!!

This is the root of all our issues. This is how we were raised; this is how we perceive the world!

The fact that kids today have a better grasp of money and financial culture than they do basic math—something you shouldn't even need to memorize unless it's an extreme case, and something that can actually be learned through real understanding—is telling. It’s the fact that we live in a society, really a global one, that’s drowned in neoliberal capitalism where we've cherry-picked the absolute worst parts and tossed out the best. It's the fact that we have been, historically speaking, anchored as a nation of fools who are just a mass of people to be exploited and sent to the front lines because geniuses die too early and then we lose them. And that applies to everything, from industry to warfare—I mention war because historically we've been known as a tribe of warriors used to fight someone else's battles. The fact that we were never truly educated as citizens... that is what our struggles have actually given us!

That’s why I say, we can talk about school reform all day, but what we really need first is a spiritual reform. We need critical thinking. We need a reform of the mind itself!

urbantinker8 said:If that were ever proposed, I imagine parents would kick up an even bigger fuss, probably accusing the entire school system of discriminating against their children.
I mean, just picture a fourth-grade teacher suggesting to a parent today that their kid should probably head toward a career in plumbing.😲
Kids are still forming who they are, you know? Their interests shift, their work habits change...
It would be an absolute scandal.☕

Only a small subset of kids can pick up conjugations or declensions deductively from real-life examples, like watching TV or listening to music. And I’m not talking about English here, since, well, English practically lacks those kinds of declensions and conjugations anyway.😛
Most kids really need the rule explained first, along with a chart showing examples across all persons and cases, and only once they've internalized that can they start applying those same rules to similar verbs or nouns of the same gender.

As for the multiplication table...🤣
I mean, good for you, but I truly think it’s easier for the average eighth grader to just memorize the table itself rather than starting with prime factorization.
Let's not get too carried away.😉

And can you imagine the uproar the unions would cause if certain subjects were cut, or if hours were reduced, or if some kids were allowed to skip specific classes?
Or, you know, if certain jobs were eliminated...
If some teachers actually had to look for work somewhere else...🤔

Sure, kids are still forming, and we all keep growing and developing throughout our entire lives, but so many kids just struggle through elementary school with bad grades, constant absences, a poor self-image, or social hurdles. They spend time in an environment where they could instead be picking up practical skills—especially if their parents run a local business or work in agriculture.

The obsession with providing a "general education" often results in kids just sitting in chairs too much, which kills their drive to learn and explore. Ultimately, it stifles a child's genuine interests.
And all of this happens just to protect existing jobs.
We need to have the guts to admit that some kids want to be carpenters or florists. We shouldn't care about what A. Senou or Matos think; if they aren't interested in historical wars and just want to saw wood or tend to plants, let them.

Most of what is mandatory in elementary school right now is totally unnecessary, and the way we force kids to learn is actually counterproductive.

rowdypanther12 said:But urbantinker8, we’re talking about students who are clearly passing with straight As and Bs! That’s the whole point. If they’ve managed to graduate from college, you have to assume they weren't scraping by with Ds in middle school or failing everything in high school. You know? It’s just frustrating because kids are getting these top-tier grades despite having almost no basic literacy skills.

And one more thing—since when did nobody fail anymore? I feel like I’ve asked this so many times before. When did this unwritten rule start? Back when I was in school in the early '90s, and even when my sister was in school in the late '90s, people definitely failed classes back then.

Students do fail.
I work with several different schools and deal with kids from all sorts of backgrounds, and let me tell you, there are definitely failures in middle school.
The thing is, it just seems "easier" now. Teachers would rather go through the hassle of setting up an individualized education program (IEP) to help a kid pass than actually fail them.
Once a student is on an IEP, it’s like they aren't even allowed to fail.
As for what those programs actually look like... I'll just leave that alone.
Teachers even get a small stipend for managing them. So, the workload for the kids goes down, while they still walk away with Cs, or even As, despite not really grasping the material. Personally, I think instead of these watered-down programs, it would be better to just cut half the curriculum and have them actually master the essentials.

Susan James said:And can you imagine the uproar the unions would cause if certain subjects were cut, or if hours were reduced, or if some kids were allowed to skip specific classes?
Or, you know, if certain jobs were eliminated...
If some teachers actually had to look for work somewhere else...🤔

Sure, kids are still forming, and we all keep growing and developing throughout our entire lives, but so many kids just struggle through elementary school with bad grades, constant absences, a poor self-image, or social hurdles. They spend time in an environment where they could instead be picking up practical skills—especially if their parents run a local business or work in agriculture.

The obsession with providing a "general education" often results in kids just sitting in chairs too much, which kills their drive to learn and explore. Ultimately, it stifles a child's genuine interests.
And all of this happens just to protect existing jobs.
We need to have the guts to admit that some kids want to be carpenters or florists. We shouldn't care about what A. Senou or Matos think; if they aren't interested in historical wars and just want to saw wood or tend to plants, let them.

Most of what is mandatory in elementary school right now is totally unnecessary, and the way we force kids to learn is actually counterproductive.

Josip Kozarac was a damn forestry engineer, one of our most famous foresters, so what are we even talking about here?

When you start nitpicking American language and literature, I'm going to bite back!

If knowing the basics of your own language and culture is "too much"—whether you end up a carpenter, a painter, or a modern literature professor at the University of California, Berkeley—then why bother? Because those foundations are how you learn to think, to be concrete, to think critically, to analyze a text, to read, and to write... If we don't need that, then what the hell do we need?

Yeah, maybe not every kid will find deep truths in a story by Matos, but they’ll grasp a sense of tradition, pick up new vocabulary, and realize there were people living before them... Not to mention everything else they can learn and every world they can visit through reading.

The same goes for every subject... If learning about major American rivers is "too much," or if fractions are too much, or if studying the World Wars is overkill for a future painter, then fine—let's take away their right to vote, too. Because that painter, that poet, that engineer, that sanitation worker... they all vote. Everyone needs the ability to recognize what is ultimately good for society as a whole.

God forbid I start bringing up Kant’s categorical imperative and a bit of utilitarianism for a healthy society...

I truly hope that soon I’ll be teaching my own passion, my own philosophy. I hope the muses strike me so I can instill critical thinking in these kids—whether they become carpenters or the next Einsteins. We need all of them. We all do the same work, and it’s a failure for all of us if we destroy these "weakest" links by reducing them to the bare minimum.