School Reform: Thoughts?

It’s not like the American education system doesn't need a serious overhaul or anything. It absolutely does—but we should probably start with how we hire teachers, the way they’re trained, and making sure there's actual continuous professional development instead of just... whatever currently exists. We also desperately need a standardized grading system. And I don't necessarily mean just slapping a number on everything, though if we do go the numerical route, it really needs to be rooted in actual written exams and projects with clear, objective rubrics.

As for the curriculum itself? Yeah, it needs some tweaking too, but honestly, things aren't quite the total catastrophe people seem to think they are.

If there's one thing that really gets me about a lot of the posts above, it's this mindset that education is just a tool to land a job or pick up specific technical skills you'll use at the office. That's only one tiny slice of what learning is supposed to do. Those "useless" details we were all forced to memorize back in school? They actually helped build critical thinking skills. Even pure rote memorization has its place in developing cognitive abilities—it’s not all wasted time.

A solid general culture is vital—and let's be real, for many people, it's what actually puts food on the table. Plus, someone with a broad, well-rounded education is much less likely to end up as a mindless political puppet without an ounce of their own opinion. It feels like that's becoming a bigger problem everywhere in the world lately.

rowdypanther12 said:It honestly bothers me that some people graduate from college and are barely literate, if that.
To me, that should be one of the core responsibilities of elementary school. Beyond just basic math, students need a solid grasp of geography and history. To even pass, you really need to be able to read and write properly. You don't need to know what an alliteration or a pleonasm is, but you definitely shouldn't be misspelling basic words.

Back when I was at Seattle Sounders FC studying American linguistics and literature, students would actually lose points on their lit exams just because of spelling errors—and we're talking basic stuff, like simple phonetic slips.

☕

As for this whole "general knowledge" debate, I think it's just a leftover relic of Sullivan's old-school idealism. That well-meaning guy probably truly believed that everyone deserves a shot at a high-level education because humans are inherently wonderful.
Fine, it was a specific moment in history and whatever.
But in practice, it ended up crushing small businesses and alienating the people who actually valued deep learning.

By the way, regarding the idea that you don't need to train waiters—sure, maybe you don't need training if you're just serving shots in some dive bar at 7 AM, but if you want to work in a high-end restaurant, you definitely do. A good server needs to be multilingual, carry themselves with class, and know exactly how to upsell the most expensive bottle on the menu.
At least the people I know working in hospitality swear by it.

Good grief, frupy... what are we even talking about here? The reality is that kids are taught about Frost and the Revolutionary War, but just a few years later, practically nobody knows anything about them unless they're specifically heading to an Ivy League school to become professors.
The truth is, they just don't care.
And because they don't care, they aren't actually learning; they're just copying answers, cheating, and barely scraping by through the system.
Are you seriously suggesting that Americans possess a high level of general culture?

Just a side note: after grinding through all that heavy-duty math, we’re seeing graduates walk out of high schools who can't even figure out how much interest they'll owe on a car loan.

It’s wild—you end up with people who are basically clueless when it comes to managing their money, running a business, or just handling the basic logistics of adult life.

Honestly, you start wondering if there's some kind of cosmic joke at play here; like, sure, you need to master calculus and complex integrals, but heaven forbid you actually learn what different interest rates mean or how a standard mortgage repayment schedule works.

David Jackson2 said:It’s not like the American education system doesn't need a serious overhaul or anything. It absolutely does—but we should probably start with how we hire teachers, the way they’re trained, and making sure there's actual continuous professional development instead of just... whatever currently exists. We also desperately need a standardized grading system. And I don't necessarily mean just slapping a number on everything, though if we do go the numerical route, it really needs to be rooted in actual written exams and projects with clear, objective rubrics.

As for the curriculum itself? Yeah, it needs some tweaking too, but honestly, things aren't quite the total catastrophe people seem to think they are.

If there's one thing that really gets me about a lot of the posts above, it's this mindset that education is just a tool to land a job or pick up specific technical skills you'll use at the office. That's only one tiny slice of what learning is supposed to do. Those "useless" details we were all forced to memorize back in school? They actually helped build critical thinking skills. Even pure rote memorization has its place in developing cognitive abilities—it’s not all wasted time.

A solid general culture is vital—and let's be real, for many people, it's what actually puts food on the table. Plus, someone with a broad, well-rounded education is much less likely to end up as a mindless political puppet without an ounce of their own opinion. It feels like that's becoming a bigger problem everywhere in the world lately.

But look at this: if that's true, then why on earth have generations of Americans ended up acting like mindless political pawns?
We’ve been teaching general culture for decades now, so why isn't it sticking? Where is the disconnect? What are we missing here? 😁

I really feel like we need to tackle these questions head-on before we even dream about jumping into school system reforms. 😁

rowdypanther12 said:But urbantinker8, we’re talking about students who are clearly passing with straight As and Bs! That’s the whole point. If they’ve managed to graduate from college, you have to assume they weren't scraping by with Ds in middle school or failing everything in high school. You know? It’s just frustrating because kids are getting these top-tier grades despite having almost no basic literacy skills.

And one more thing—since when did nobody fail anymore? I feel like I’ve asked this so many times before. When did this unwritten rule start? Back when I was in school in the early '90s, and even when my sister was in school in the late '90s, people definitely failed classes back then.

I suppose it is possible for students to pass with Bs despite getting Ds in English.
I don't really know exactly when this unwritten rule kicked in; it feels like it was just sort of spontaneously imposed on us.😁
If I had to guess, based on when I was working at my very first elementary school, maybe around the 2003/2004 school year, it was already an established practice by then.

silentraven6 said:This right here? This is the bedrock of our failing education system, this country, everything!!!!

This is the root of all our issues. This is how we were raised; this is how we perceive the world!

The fact that kids today have a better grasp of money and financial culture than they do basic math—something you shouldn't even need to memorize unless it's an extreme case, and something that can actually be learned through real understanding—is telling. It’s the fact that we live in a society, really a global one, that’s drowned in neoliberal capitalism where we've cherry-picked the absolute worst parts and tossed out the best. It's the fact that we have been, historically speaking, anchored as a nation of fools who are just a mass of people to be exploited and sent to the front lines because geniuses die too early and then we lose them. And that applies to everything, from industry to warfare—I mention war because historically we've been known as a tribe of warriors used to fight someone else's battles. The fact that we were never truly educated as citizens... that is what our struggles have actually given us!

That’s why I say, we can talk about school reform all day, but what we really need first is a spiritual reform. We need critical thinking. We need a reform of the mind itself!

🙏🙏🙏
I don't really have anything to add.☕

Susan James said:And can you imagine the uproar the unions would cause if certain subjects were cut, or if hours were reduced, or if some kids were allowed to skip specific classes?
Or, you know, if certain jobs were eliminated...
If some teachers actually had to look for work somewhere else...🤔

Sure, kids are still forming, and we all keep growing and developing throughout our entire lives, but so many kids just struggle through elementary school with bad grades, constant absences, a poor self-image, or social hurdles. They spend time in an environment where they could instead be picking up practical skills—especially if their parents run a local business or work in agriculture.

The obsession with providing a "general education" often results in kids just sitting in chairs too much, which kills their drive to learn and explore. Ultimately, it stifles a child's genuine interests.
And all of this happens just to protect existing jobs.
We need to have the guts to admit that some kids want to be carpenters or florists. We shouldn't care about what A. Senou or Matos think; if they aren't interested in historical wars and just want to saw wood or tend to plants, let them.

Most of what is mandatory in elementary school right now is totally unnecessary, and the way we force kids to learn is actually counterproductive.

The truth is, instructional hours are definitely being cut, and some subjects are slipping through the cracks.😉
The people who really ought to be cleared out of our schools aren't going anywhere, mostly because they aren't strictly or directly under the thumb of the Department of Culture (and I might add, there's plenty of influence from the Vatican 😉), so you end up having to offer things like "ethics" classes as a sort of workaround.
It’s probably not quite as straightforward as it looks on the surface.

Susan James said:Students do fail.
I work with several different schools and deal with kids from all sorts of backgrounds, and let me tell you, there are definitely failures in middle school.
The thing is, it just seems "easier" now. Teachers would rather go through the hassle of setting up an individualized education program (IEP) to help a kid pass than actually fail them.
Once a student is on an IEP, it’s like they aren't even allowed to fail.
As for what those programs actually look like... I'll just leave that alone.
Teachers even get a small stipend for managing them. So, the workload for the kids goes down, while they still walk away with Cs, or even As, despite not really grasping the material. Personally, I think instead of these watered-down programs, it would be better to just cut half the curriculum and have them actually master the essentials.

Forgive me, but I think you'll have to agree that the ones pushing hardest for these modified programs are usually the psychologists and pedagogues, certainly not the classroom teachers.😉
So, I guess we really need to sweep our own house before we start pointing fingers elsewhere.😁

And if there really are failures in elementary school, they seem to be such isolated incidents that they are statistically pretty much negligible.

Here’s a suggestion for changing the school curriculum, coming straight from a teacher on the front lines.
The way they consult with a psychologist or a whole support team is really just a way to shift the responsibility elsewhere.
But let’s be real—a psychologist isn't sitting through a math lecture, struggling to figure out why a student just isn't grasping the equations. 🥳

You’d be surprised how many complaints there are about these "solutions." Even when the adjustments haven't been cleared by a medical facility and a psychologist was part of the decision-making team, the teachers themselves are often the ones raising issues (even if they try to hide behind the school's entire support staff).

Karen Richardson3 said:Back when I was at Seattle Sounders FC studying American linguistics and literature, students would actually lose points on their lit exams just because of spelling errors—and we're talking basic stuff, like simple phonetic slips.

☕

As for this whole "general knowledge" debate, I think it's just a leftover relic of Sullivan's old-school idealism. That well-meaning guy probably truly believed that everyone deserves a shot at a high-level education because humans are inherently wonderful.
Fine, it was a specific moment in history and whatever.
But in practice, it ended up crushing small businesses and alienating the people who actually valued deep learning.

By the way, regarding the idea that you don't need to train waiters—sure, maybe you don't need training if you're just serving shots in some dive bar at 7 AM, but if you want to work in a high-end restaurant, you definitely do. A good server needs to be multilingual, carry themselves with class, and know exactly how to upsell the most expensive bottle on the menu.
At least the people I know working in hospitality swear by it.

Good grief, frupy... what are we even talking about here? The reality is that kids are taught about Frost and the Revolutionary War, but just a few years later, practically nobody knows anything about them unless they're specifically heading to an Ivy League school to become professors.
The truth is, they just don't care.
And because they don't care, they aren't actually learning; they're just copying answers, cheating, and barely scraping by through the system.
Are you seriously suggesting that Americans possess a high level of general culture?

Karen Richardson3 said:Just a side note: after grinding through all that heavy-duty math, we’re seeing graduates walk out of high schools who can't even figure out how much interest they'll owe on a car loan.

It’s wild—you end up with people who are basically clueless when it comes to managing their money, running a business, or just handling the basic logistics of adult life.

Honestly, you start wondering if there's some kind of cosmic joke at play here; like, sure, you need to master calculus and complex integrals, but heaven forbid you actually learn what different interest rates mean or how a standard mortgage repayment schedule works.

I think you might be grouping too many things together and generalizing a bit too much, if I may say so.
It’s a given that kids in a standard American high school will be taught about T.S. Eliot and the Revolutionary War.
Because part of the point of a preparatory high school is to provide a broader education than, say, a vocational school for chimney sweeps, and I suppose T.S. Eliot and historical conflicts are definitely part of that broader knowledge and general culture.
Still, most high schoolers are expected to go to college, so it would be rather awkward if they had no idea who T.S. Eliot was.
I guess you could forgive the chimney sweep for that.😁

The ones who are cheating, copying, and just sliding through the system are usually the students who chose a prep school simply because it sounds more prestigious than enrolling in an HVAC technician program. Even parents feel a certain shame if their child, heaven forbid, ends up in a three-year trade school.

As for derivatives and integrals, they aren't taught everywhere—it’s generally expected that if high schoolers have mastered those, they should also be able to handle basic interest calculations.
But butchers or pastry chefs aren't exactly being bothered with calculus.

You seem to be speaking somewhat off the cuff, I suppose.

The curriculum itself isn't the same, nor is the volume of material; there's a big difference between a prep school where you take history for two hours a week over four years or math for three or four hours, compared to a vocational school where you might only have history for one or two years at an hour or two a week, and math for two hours over three years.

Susan James said:Here’s a suggestion for changing the school curriculum, coming straight from a teacher on the front lines.
The way they consult with a psychologist or a whole support team is really just a way to shift the responsibility elsewhere.
But let’s be real—a psychologist isn't sitting through a math lecture, struggling to figure out why a student just isn't grasping the equations. 🥳

You’d be surprised how many complaints there are about these "solutions." Even when the adjustments haven't been cleared by a medical facility and a psychologist was part of the decision-making team, the teachers themselves are often the ones raising issues (even if they try to hide behind the school's entire support staff).

I suspect you might be a bit mistaken here.

Of course, a teacher is going to react if they see a student can't keep up with the standard curriculum; I suppose that’s just our job and our responsibility.

Consulting with a guidance counselor, a psychologist, or a specialist doctor is actually a requirement for us, rather than some clever way to pass the buck.
In these specific scenarios, those specialists are essentially treated as the higher authority, so they’re the ones deciding if something needs adjusting and how it should look.
That’s honestly the most irritating part for me, because the psychologist or counselor ends up meddling in my actual field, dictating learning plans, testing methods, and everything else... instead of letting me handle it, which gives me all the official paperwork I need.🙄 And, as you pointed out, they aren't the ones sitting in my classroom dealing with the struggle of students failing to understand the lesson.☕

And, by the way, I never received any extra pay or anything like that during my career, nor would I ever ask for it, even when I had students on individualized programs.😕
I’ve had classes where as many as five students needed some sort of accommodation in one of many different ways.

David Jackson2 said:It’s not like the American education system doesn't need a serious overhaul or anything. It absolutely does—but we should probably start with how we hire teachers, the way they’re trained, and making sure there's actual continuous professional development instead of just... whatever currently exists. We also desperately need a standardized grading system. And I don't necessarily mean just slapping a number on everything, though if we do go the numerical route, it really needs to be rooted in actual written exams and projects with clear, objective rubrics.

As for the curriculum itself? Yeah, it needs some tweaking too, but honestly, things aren't quite the total catastrophe people seem to think they are.

If there's one thing that really gets me about a lot of the posts above, it's this mindset that education is just a tool to land a job or pick up specific technical skills you'll use at the office. That's only one tiny slice of what learning is supposed to do. Those "useless" details we were all forced to memorize back in school? They actually helped build critical thinking skills. Even pure rote memorization has its place in developing cognitive abilities—it’s not all wasted time.

A solid general culture is vital—and let's be real, for many people, it's what actually puts food on the table. Plus, someone with a broad, well-rounded education is much less likely to end up as a mindless political puppet without an ounce of their own opinion. It feels like that's becoming a bigger problem everywhere in the world lately.

And what else is education for? Look, it’s nice to stare at the stars and know their names and facts about them—assuming you aren't staring at them from under a bridge because you can't afford a house since you can't find a job to pay for one.

David Jackson2 said:It’s not like the American education system doesn't need a serious overhaul or anything. It absolutely does—but we should probably start with how we hire teachers, the way they’re trained, and making sure there's actual continuous professional development instead of just... whatever currently exists. We also desperately need a standardized grading system. And I don't necessarily mean just slapping a number on everything, though if we do go the numerical route, it really needs to be rooted in actual written exams and projects with clear, objective rubrics.

As for the curriculum itself? Yeah, it needs some tweaking too, but honestly, things aren't quite the total catastrophe people seem to think they are.

If there's one thing that really gets me about a lot of the posts above, it's this mindset that education is just a tool to land a job or pick up specific technical skills you'll use at the office. That's only one tiny slice of what learning is supposed to do. Those "useless" details we were all forced to memorize back in school? They actually helped build critical thinking skills. Even pure rote memorization has its place in developing cognitive abilities—it’s not all wasted time.

A solid general culture is vital—and let's be real, for many people, it's what actually puts food on the table. Plus, someone with a broad, well-rounded education is much less likely to end up as a mindless political puppet without an ounce of their own opinion. It feels like that's becoming a bigger problem everywhere in the world lately.

Do you actually believe that, or are you just reciting the official script?

urbantinker8 said:I think you might be grouping too many things together and generalizing a bit too much, if I may say so.
It’s a given that kids in a standard American high school will be taught about T.S. Eliot and the Revolutionary War.
Because part of the point of a preparatory high school is to provide a broader education than, say, a vocational school for chimney sweeps, and I suppose T.S. Eliot and historical conflicts are definitely part of that broader knowledge and general culture.
Still, most high schoolers are expected to go to college, so it would be rather awkward if they had no idea who T.S. Eliot was.
I guess you could forgive the chimney sweep for that.😁

The ones who are cheating, copying, and just sliding through the system are usually the students who chose a prep school simply because it sounds more prestigious than enrolling in an HVAC technician program. Even parents feel a certain shame if their child, heaven forbid, ends up in a three-year trade school.

As for derivatives and integrals, they aren't taught everywhere—it’s generally expected that if high schoolers have mastered those, they should also be able to handle basic interest calculations.
But butchers or pastry chefs aren't exactly being bothered with calculus.

You seem to be speaking somewhat off the cuff, I suppose.

The curriculum itself isn't the same, nor is the volume of material; there's a big difference between a prep school where you take history for two hours a week over four years or math for three or four hours, compared to a vocational school where you might only have history for one or two years at an hour or two a week, and math for two hours over three years.

High school graduates are expected to be capable of making independent, rational decisions. So what? Maybe the honors students know math and the pastry chefs don't. Big deal. I'm sure solving a differential equation will fix every single problem in their lives.

The whole thing with the interest rate math is a total tragedy; it's as if bankers themselves wrote the national curriculum.

nimblelynx7 said:And what else is education for? Look, it’s nice to stare at the stars and know their names and facts about them—assuming you aren't staring at them from under a bridge because you can't afford a house since you can't find a job to pay for one.

Do you actually believe that, or are you just reciting the official script?

High school graduates are expected to be capable of making independent, rational decisions. So what? Maybe the honors students know math and the pastry chefs don't. Big deal. I'm sure solving a differential equation will fix every single problem in their lives.

The whole thing with the interest rate math is a total tragedy; it's as if bankers themselves wrote the national curriculum.

I mean, learning how to make independent, logical choices isn't something that just happens within the four walls of a classroom.
But that’s often how the narrative goes, I guess, because when someone in their late teens or even mid-twenties struggles to weigh a situation rationally, it’s just much easier to point the finger at the education system.
It’s almost as if parents play absolutely zero role in shaping that development during a child's upbringing, right?

It’s always someone else's fault, like we're all just blaming the runoff from the Amazon in Brazil for everything gone wrong.🙄

Parents have their flaws, and I’ve never once given them a free pass for their mistakes.

The whole point of school is supposedly to equip kids with functional life skills—that’s why mandatory education exists (not just so teachers have somewhere to clock in, or to force children into a cookie-cutter mold). It isn't the parents' job to teach kids how to perform the work that puts food on the table; that’s supposed to be the school's responsibility.

nimblelynx7 said:Parents have their flaws, and I’ve never once given them a free pass for their mistakes.

The whole point of school is supposedly to equip kids with functional life skills—that’s why mandatory education exists (not just so teachers have somewhere to clock in, or to force children into a cookie-cutter mold). It isn't the parents' job to teach kids how to perform the work that puts food on the table; that’s supposed to be the school's responsibility.

...but not nearly as much as the teachers, is that what you were getting at?

I mean, kids can certainly pick up basic functional skills at school without much trouble, but if they aren't being taught any actual work ethic from an early age, or if all they hear at home is constant negativity about school, or if they end up enrolling in whatever school is cool or just where all their neighborhood friends go rather than the one that actually matches their abilities, then even the best school isn't going to be a magic fix.
You just can't teach someone anything if they aren't willing to learn. Not even basic arithmetic or abstract reasoning.

It's probably just easier to blame everything on some sort of "pointless failure."

My kid is apparently incapable of making rational decisions because they were forced to memorize every single US state and major European capitals, when the real issue isn't the curriculum, but the fact that we don't engage with them at home, and instead they spend all day hypnotized by the TV, phone, tablet, or laptop.

urbantinker8 said:I think you might be grouping too many things together and generalizing a bit too much, if I may say so.
It’s a given that kids in a standard American high school will be taught about T.S. Eliot and the Revolutionary War.
Because part of the point of a preparatory high school is to provide a broader education than, say, a vocational school for chimney sweeps, and I suppose T.S. Eliot and historical conflicts are definitely part of that broader knowledge and general culture.
Still, most high schoolers are expected to go to college, so it would be rather awkward if they had no idea who T.S. Eliot was.
I guess you could forgive the chimney sweep for that.😁

The ones who are cheating, copying, and just sliding through the system are usually the students who chose a prep school simply because it sounds more prestigious than enrolling in an HVAC technician program. Even parents feel a certain shame if their child, heaven forbid, ends up in a three-year trade school.

As for derivatives and integrals, they aren't taught everywhere—it’s generally expected that if high schoolers have mastered those, they should also be able to handle basic interest calculations.
But butchers or pastry chefs aren't exactly being bothered with calculus.

You seem to be speaking somewhat off the cuff, I suppose.

The curriculum itself isn't the same, nor is the volume of material; there's a big difference between a prep school where you take history for two hours a week over four years or math for three or four hours, compared to a vocational school where you might only have history for one or two years at an hour or two a week, and math for two hours over three years.

🤣

I went to a prep school myself, and in my class, there were these three girls who were total "nerds"—meaning they actually sat down and studied for exams. For the rest of us, we spent most of our time in that school learning nothing but how to copy off someone else's paper.

Why was that? Well, we were juggling seventeen different subjects, hitting six or seven classes every single day, and since we weren't like those three girls who would head straight home to study for the next morning, we were busy doing what teenagers actually do—hanging out, falling in love, and just living life.

Whenever I look back on my high school years, the first thing that pops into my head is just the absolute mess and lack of organization everywhere.😁

But anyway, whatever. If we're talking about "developing critical thinking skills," here's my take:
If I were working in education, I’d teach history. It’s a total myth that the goal of teaching history is to foster critical thinking; in reality, the whole point is often just to indoctrinate young people with nationalistic myths. Almost everything taught regarding American history in high school gets categorized under "national mythology" once you get to a university level.

Also, regarding English literature classes—I truly believe the goal should be teaching students how to communicate using standard American English (which is basically what rowdypanther12 is getting at) and, as a higher aim, introducing them to works that actually make them want to pick up a book.
Instead, the reality is that language instruction is kept to a bare minimum, while kids are forced to slog through incredibly boring classics that drive them away from reading entirely, all under the guise of "these are the greats," "it's part of a well-rounded education," or "how could you not know who T.S. Eliot is?"

To me, being "well-read" means actually reading things after you finish school, not just knowing that Joyce wrote Ulysses without ever having actually held the book or read a single page.

And finally—one of the main products this kind of school system successfully churns out is a generation of graduates who flock to liberal arts degrees only to find themselves completely unemployable. They end up drifting into politics just to put food on the table. Basically, the idea that "school isn't just about job training, it's about expanding your spirit" creates an army of political science majors and philosophers who eventually join political parties just to survive, becoming tiny cogs in the machine of corruption in this country because, frankly, they have no other way to get a paycheck.

Karen Richardson3 said:🤣

I went to a prep school myself, and in my class, there were these three girls who were total "nerds"—meaning they actually sat down and studied for exams. For the rest of us, we spent most of our time in that school learning nothing but how to copy off someone else's paper.

Why was that? Well, we were juggling seventeen different subjects, hitting six or seven classes every single day, and since we weren't like those three girls who would head straight home to study for the next morning, we were busy doing what teenagers actually do—hanging out, falling in love, and just living life.

Whenever I look back on my high school years, the first thing that pops into my head is just the absolute mess and lack of organization everywhere.😁

But anyway, whatever. If we're talking about "developing critical thinking skills," here's my take:
If I were working in education, I’d teach history. It’s a total myth that the goal of teaching history is to foster critical thinking; in reality, the whole point is often just to indoctrinate young people with nationalistic myths. Almost everything taught regarding American history in high school gets categorized under "national mythology" once you get to a university level.

Also, regarding English literature classes—I truly believe the goal should be teaching students how to communicate using standard American English (which is basically what rowdypanther12 is getting at) and, as a higher aim, introducing them to works that actually make them want to pick up a book.
Instead, the reality is that language instruction is kept to a bare minimum, while kids are forced to slog through incredibly boring classics that drive them away from reading entirely, all under the guise of "these are the greats," "it's part of a well-rounded education," or "how could you not know who T.S. Eliot is?"

To me, being "well-read" means actually reading things after you finish school, not just knowing that Joyce wrote Ulysses without ever having actually held the book or read a single page.

And finally—one of the main products this kind of school system successfully churns out is a generation of graduates who flock to liberal arts degrees only to find themselves completely unemployable. They end up drifting into politics just to put food on the table. Basically, the idea that "school isn't just about job training, it's about expanding your spirit" creates an army of political science majors and philosophers who eventually join political parties just to survive, becoming tiny cogs in the machine of corruption in this country because, frankly, they have no other way to get a paycheck.

And you see, I also had seventeen subjects, and I’d probably breeze through them with nothing but nonsense for maybe two or three classes that were absolutely boring or just didn't make any sense to me, but I actually did study for the others.
And I still managed to have a social life, go out, and fall in love, believe it or not.

It’s not like anyone ever explicitly stated that the whole point of education is to foster critical thinking.
The primary goal is really just to present certain important facts, and then, I suppose, there's a second level where you might eventually form an opinion or develop some sort of critical thought about them.
Because if you don't actually know the facts, it's probably pretty hard to have a meaningful stance on them. 🤷

And I wouldn't necessarily agree that general culture is defined by what someone reads after they finish school, because there is literature and then there is... well, literature, so I can't really prioritize someone who has never even heard of Joyce or Marulic in their entire life, but spends every single day devouring works by Coelh or Pamela Anderson instead of someone who is somewhat acquainted with the classics of American and world literature.

Regarding this whole concept of "pop culture," no matter how closely I look at it, I just can't seem to find a real connection between education levels and general cultural awareness. On paper, there should be a link, but in practice, I don't see it happening.

urbantinker8 said:...but not nearly as much as the teachers, is that what you were getting at?

I mean, kids can certainly pick up basic functional skills at school without much trouble, but if they aren't being taught any actual work ethic from an early age, or if all they hear at home is constant negativity about school, or if they end up enrolling in whatever school is cool or just where all their neighborhood friends go rather than the one that actually matches their abilities, then even the best school isn't going to be a magic fix.
You just can't teach someone anything if they aren't willing to learn. Not even basic arithmetic or abstract reasoning.

It's probably just easier to blame everything on some sort of "pointless failure."

My kid is apparently incapable of making rational decisions because they were forced to memorize every single US state and major European capitals, when the real issue isn't the curriculum, but the fact that we don't engage with them at home, and instead they spend all day hypnotized by the TV, phone, tablet, or laptop.

Exactly. If someone spends 12 years in a profession and there’s zero tangible results to show for it—or worse, just a mountain of useless junk produced everywhere—then they should shut their mouths instead of pointing fingers and hunting for scapegoats.

Parents, kids, and teachers are all victims of a disgusting, warped, and idiotic educational system. Parents and children are the ones suffering at the hands of teachers, yet those teachers try to frame them as accomplices in this failure. I can't think of anything more repulsive.
Parents and kids are forced into this school system by law; teachers are there by choice, and most of them are only there because they couldn't come up with a better career path.

Yeah.

urbantinker8 said:...but not nearly as much as the teachers, is that what you were getting at?

I mean, kids can certainly pick up basic functional skills at school without much trouble, but if they aren't being taught any actual work ethic from an early age, or if all they hear at home is constant negativity about school, or if they end up enrolling in whatever school is cool or just where all their neighborhood friends go rather than the one that actually matches their abilities, then even the best school isn't going to be a magic fix.
You just can't teach someone anything if they aren't willing to learn. Not even basic arithmetic or abstract reasoning.

It's probably just easier to blame everything on some sort of "pointless failure."

My kid is apparently incapable of making rational decisions because they were forced to memorize every single US state and major European capitals, when the real issue isn't the curriculum, but the fact that we don't engage with them at home, and instead they spend all day hypnotized by the TV, phone, tablet, or laptop.

Unless by "functional skills" you mean training them for mindless obedience to authority—which is what school is actually designed for. Kids aren't stupid, regardless of how much teachers want them to be, and they clearly realize that developing good work habits won't help them nearly as much as brown-nosing will.

As for the screen addiction, that's an additional problem. What's worst is that a kid sitting at a laptop all day, given their own intelligence or proper guidance, can learn far more than they ever would in a classroom, simply because they actually *want* to learn, not because they're being coerced.

rowdypanther12, I don't know, I guess I might have to disagree with you there.

I tend to run in a pretty diverse circle of friends, people from all sorts of walks of life—you've got professors and MDs, then there are the folks with PhDs in economics, plus IT specialists, and even just everyday people like shopkeepers, chefs, or hairstylists.

And, I suppose I can't really deny that there's a noticeable difference in the general culture—it kind of shows up in what we talk about, how we express our thoughts, and even just the vocabulary we use...

Now, I'm definitely not saying I discriminate against anyone based on their degree—I value everyone equally, I really do😍—but it’s just an observation that our conversations rarely ever seem to head in the same direction.

nimblelynx7 said:Exactly. If someone spends 12 years in a profession and there’s zero tangible results to show for it—or worse, just a mountain of useless junk produced everywhere—then they should shut their mouths instead of pointing fingers and hunting for scapegoats.

Parents, kids, and teachers are all victims of a disgusting, warped, and idiotic educational system. Parents and children are the ones suffering at the hands of teachers, yet those teachers try to frame them as accomplices in this failure. I can't think of anything more repulsive.
Parents and kids are forced into this school system by law; teachers are there by choice, and most of them are only there because they couldn't come up with a better career path.

Yeah.

Unless by "functional skills" you mean training them for mindless obedience to authority—which is what school is actually designed for. Kids aren't stupid, regardless of how much teachers want them to be, and they clearly realize that developing good work habits won't help them nearly as much as brown-nosing will.

As for the screen addiction, that's an additional problem. What's worst is that a kid sitting at a laptop all day, given their own intelligence or proper guidance, can learn far more than they ever would in a classroom, simply because they actually *want* to learn, not because they're being coerced.

I don't really know whether I should give 🤣 or 😢 to all this attitude you've laid out here.
I don't really have much else to say to someone who basically admits they are a product of this same broken, dysfunctional, and idiotic educational system.

I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because I used to hang out with those alternative types who skipped class just to sit in the park, drink, and contemplate the meaning of life or debate religion and different political systems 😁
But seriously, looking at the people I've known, I can't really see the connection. (Though, I suppose you might find some folks who studied philosophy or political science, but even then, there aren't that many of them with poor general culture 😁 )

It’s gone. Had to have it removed because of kidney stones.

Unfortunately, you're right. I went through the entire public school system just like everyone else, but it wasn't until I was done that I realized what a total disaster it actually is. The real problem? Everyone knows it's a mess, but they don't realize it until they graduate. They try to convince themselves otherwise just so they don't have to admit they wasted the last 17 years of their lives.