School Reform: Thoughts?

urbantinker8 said:Well, I suppose you shouldn't generalize quite like that:

I mean, obviously, "our education system" is responsible for everything.
If it didn't exist and we just left upbringing and schooling entirely up to the parents, America would probably be a total paradise.
In every possible sense, I guess.🙂

Sorry, but it seems like only parents and students view it that way.

Why on earth would that—and for whom, really?—be any easier?

That wasn't me making some sweeping generalization. I was talking directly to the people who couldn't wait to start throwing shade without even bothering to ask why. Honestly, I think it’s a bit ridiculous that anyone would question my right to have an opinion.

Jason Ortiz5 said:That wasn't me making some sweeping generalization. I was talking directly to the people who couldn't wait to start throwing shade without even bothering to ask why. Honestly, I think it’s a bit ridiculous that anyone would question my right to have an opinion.

Well, you certainly have the right to your opinion, and you make it pretty clear what that is, I guess.
but maybe we could all just let others have their own views too, even if they happen to be the exact opposite of yours.
and if possible, perhaps we could try to keep the side comments to a minimum—you know, the ones where people start acting like "oh, they're just like me."

Robert Rodriguez9 said:I don't see the issue with these kinds of questions; we had to learn this stuff too. Besides, you just watch a few documentaries, check out a map, and you're set. No need to grind through textbooks. Honestly, I thought they were expected to memorize exact percentages on command.

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rather than being like those Americans who can't even point out India on a map, let alone their own continent.

Since we’re already drifting into geography talk...

What I’ve been noticing over the last decade or so is how all these various curriculum deconstructions, those "innovative" ultra-modern teaching techniques, and constant shifts in educational goals—all wrapped up in the spirit of those famous school reforms🙂 have basically led to a criminal lack of knowledge regarding even the most basic facts in this field.

It isn't just that kids can't list or point out Southeast Asia on a map, heaven forbid, along with some major capital cities there🙂, but rather high schoolers aren't always entirely sure where that part of the world—the Southeast, generally speaking—is actually located on the globe.🤦🤦

I’m not saying they need to memorize GDP figures and stuff like that, but I get this pretty strong impression that the reformers got a little too carried away with their own grand ideas.

I find myself constantly waiting for newer generations to prove me wrong, but the situation just seems to be getting worse and worse. It’s not just isolated cases where you could blame a single bad middle school teacher; this feels more like a widespread systemic issue.☕

So, I was just scrolling through this teacher forum, and some colleagues who teach at a local high school were venting about how students—supposedly top-tier honors kids, like they have a 4.0 GPA or better—have absolutely no clue about basic history or geography. They’re talking about kids who have never even heard of Warsaw, or couldn't tell you which country Prague is in, stuff like that. And the scary part isn't just that it happened once; it’s that it’s becoming the norm. Back when I was in high school about twenty years ago, I remember one girl in my class who couldn't find Australia on a map, but she was one in twenty, you know? Not half the class. Now, apparently, it's most of them.
Am I being too dramatic if I consider this kind of stuff part of general knowledge? I mean, sure, you don't need to know it to survive, but shouldn't a student aiming for college—which is basically why you go to a prep school in the first place—have this baseline just to be well-rounded? I feel like we're way too small of a country to act like... well, like some people in the States sometimes do, where the attitude is basically, "If it isn't happening in my own backyard, I don't care."

Sarah Hall53 said:So, I was just scrolling through this teacher forum, and some colleagues who teach at a local high school were venting about how students—supposedly top-tier honors kids, like they have a 4.0 GPA or better—have absolutely no clue about basic history or geography. They’re talking about kids who have never even heard of Warsaw, or couldn't tell you which country Prague is in, stuff like that. And the scary part isn't just that it happened once; it’s that it’s becoming the norm. Back when I was in high school about twenty years ago, I remember one girl in my class who couldn't find Australia on a map, but she was one in twenty, you know? Not half the class. Now, apparently, it's most of them.
Am I being too dramatic if I consider this kind of stuff part of general knowledge? I mean, sure, you don't need to know it to survive, but shouldn't a student aiming for college—which is basically why you go to a prep school in the first place—have this baseline just to be well-rounded? I feel like we're way too small of a country to act like... well, like some people in the States sometimes do, where the attitude is basically, "If it isn't happening in my own backyard, I don't care."

not at all, you aren't overreacting.☕

it just seems to me that there are these incredibly loud groups today who constantly mock the very idea of "culture," opting instead to take the path of least resistance by making fun of distorted or caricatured facts—things that used to be taught in school but now seem to exist just for the sake of being mocked.
so, I guess we're left with entire generations of people who wouldn't even know where France sits on a map compared to the US, even when they're halfway through high school. 👏
of course, everyone will just blame the "failing education system," which feels like a convenient way to ignore the reality that this is actually the direct result of those massive curriculum reforms that, unfortunately, have already started taking their toll in certain subjects.
it’ll probably get even worse. much worse, I think.
maybe people won't even bother mentioning Turkmenistan, or maybe they won't even know the capital of England, because... well, who cares, right?🙄

Or, honestly—better yet—when you actually say "Turkmenistan," people are going to burst out laughing because they'll think it’s some totally made-up place you just cooked up on the spot.

Sarah Hall53 said:Or, honestly—better yet—when you actually say "Turkmenistan," people are going to burst out laughing because they'll think it’s some totally made-up place you just cooked up on the spot.

Turkmenistan, Zanzibar, Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan... they all feel like places invented just to confuse kids during geography class or to make a trivia game unnecessarily difficult.☕

urbantinker8 said:Turkmenistan, Zanzibar, Sri Lanka, Kazakhstan... they all feel like places invented just to confuse kids during geography class or to make a trivia game unnecessarily difficult.☕

What about Tajikistan?

And we’re off to Tunguzia.
When I say "Tunguzia"—which is really just a little verbal tic I picked up from my late grandma—people usually lose it. She used to use it as a catch-all whenever she didn't want to specify where she was going, or where something happened, or when the location was just totally irrelevant. She’d just say, "Oh, I'm headed to Tunguzia," and that was that. Most people I tell this to think I'm making it up on the spot—they actually think I'm just using some weird slang for... well, you know.

Anyway, to jump back to that point people always bring up in these kinds of debates: no, I don't think it's life-or-death for a carpenter to know where Turkmenistan is, or Tunguzia, or even Prague. For them, what matters way more is knowing their wood and how to work with it.
It’s the same for a doctor—they don't need to memorize those random spots either... but... BUT! Learning things like that during elementary and high school, and connecting all those dots and learning how to draw conclusions, is basically a workout for your brain. It builds memory, logic, reasoning skills... which is incredibly vital for students who will eventually have to, say, memorize every single bone and muscle in the human body and understand how they all interact.
Honestly, it wouldn't hurt an architect, a lawyer, or a mechanical engineer if they gave their brains a workout by processing that kind of information while they're still in school.

I recently had a chat with a guy in his thirties who was convinced he’d been tricked into visiting Canada by mistake
Honestly, I'd be shocked if I were lying

On a different note regarding geography and general curriculum, I feel like it's much easier for kids to grasp these concepts nowadays. It just seems more intuitive for them.
I remember back in school, we learned about the seasons and why they happen, but it was all just rote memorization—you'd learn a definition, spit it back out on a test, and forget it by next year. I never really took the time to actually understand the mechanics of it; I just knew it had something to do with the sun and its position. Most people don't even think about it unless their kid asks a question😁
Initially, I tried Googling it, but I just kept running into those same dry, textbook definitions I grew up with. Then, I stumbled upon this amazing little video on YouTube that explains everything in twenty seconds. It’s one of those things you'll never forget once you see it😁

rowdypanther12 said:I recently had a chat with a guy in his thirties who was convinced he’d been tricked into visiting Canada by mistake
Honestly, I'd be shocked if I were lying

On a different note regarding geography and general curriculum, I feel like it's much easier for kids to grasp these concepts nowadays. It just seems more intuitive for them.
I remember back in school, we learned about the seasons and why they happen, but it was all just rote memorization—you'd learn a definition, spit it back out on a test, and forget it by next year. I never really took the time to actually understand the mechanics of it; I just knew it had something to do with the sun and its position. Most people don't even think about it unless their kid asks a question😁
Initially, I tried Googling it, but I just kept running into those same dry, textbook definitions I grew up with. Then, I stumbled upon this amazing little video on YouTube that explains everything in twenty seconds. It’s one of those things you'll never forget once you see it😁

Oh, I believe you.
I run into that kind of "expertise" almost every single day, I guess.
It used to be that you'd just encounter the occasional person who was totally checked out or just completely lost in time and space, but that felt rare.
Now, over the last decade or so, it feels more like a full-blown epidemic of people just being utterly clueless.

Well, strike me blind if I’m wrong here, too.😁
People can't even tell you what the capital of Canada is. Most folks would bet their life savings that it's Maribor—mostly because they've heard of it on the way to Graz, which, by the way, is the capital of Austria.

I honestly can't believe it. I just don't get how you can reach 30 years old without having any clue where you actually stand in life.

urbantinker8 said:Well, I suppose you shouldn't generalize quite like that:

I mean, obviously, "our education system" is responsible for everything.
If it didn't exist and we just left upbringing and schooling entirely up to the parents, America would probably be a total paradise.
In every possible sense, I guess.🙂

Sorry, but it seems like only parents and students view it that way.

Why on earth would that—and for whom, really?—be any easier?

Of course that’s the easy way out. Just toss some mindless definition at the students, force them to memorize it word-for-word, collect their perfect scores, and move on to the next lesson. It’s lazy. How much harder would it be if you actually had to help them grasp the concept? If you wanted them to truly understand it so that ten years from now, when they hit a real-world problem, they actually remember how to apply it? That's what teaching is supposed to be.

Larry Walker24 said:signature

rather than being like those Americans who can't even point out India on a map, let alone their own continent.

It’s a good thing Americans aren't smart. Seriously. If they actually had any brains, how much further behind would people like us be? We wouldn't even be able to compete.

urbantinker8 said:not at all, you aren't overreacting.☕

it just seems to me that there are these incredibly loud groups today who constantly mock the very idea of "culture," opting instead to take the path of least resistance by making fun of distorted or caricatured facts—things that used to be taught in school but now seem to exist just for the sake of being mocked.
so, I guess we're left with entire generations of people who wouldn't even know where France sits on a map compared to the US, even when they're halfway through high school. 👏
of course, everyone will just blame the "failing education system," which feels like a convenient way to ignore the reality that this is actually the direct result of those massive curriculum reforms that, unfortunately, have already started taking their toll in certain subjects.
it’ll probably get even worse. much worse, I think.
maybe people won't even bother mentioning Turkmenistan, or maybe they won't even know the capital of England, because... well, who cares, right?🙄

How much culture does bread actually bring to the table? When it's time to settle a bill, what are you going to do—hand over a few pages from an encyclopedia instead of cash? Or maybe you'll try listing off state capitals instead of paying the actual amount due and expect them to count that as payment?

nimblelynx7 said:Of course that’s the easy way out. Just toss some mindless definition at the students, force them to memorize it word-for-word, collect their perfect scores, and move on to the next lesson. It’s lazy. How much harder would it be if you actually had to help them grasp the concept? If you wanted them to truly understand it so that ten years from now, when they hit a real-world problem, they actually remember how to apply it? That's what teaching is supposed to be.

It’s a good thing Americans aren't smart. Seriously. If they actually had any brains, how much further behind would people like us be? We wouldn't even be able to compete.

How much culture does bread actually bring to the table? When it's time to settle a bill, what are you going to do—hand over a few pages from an encyclopedia instead of cash? Or maybe you'll try listing off state capitals instead of paying the actual amount due and expect them to count that as payment?

I honestly don't know any sane person who finds "easier" to just wing it through a lecture.
but then again, I do know how easy it is to troll people who spout this kind of nonsense.☕

nimblelynx7 said:Of course that’s the easy way out. Just toss some mindless definition at the students, force them to memorize it word-for-word, collect their perfect scores, and move on to the next lesson. It’s lazy. How much harder would it be if you actually had to help them grasp the concept? If you wanted them to truly understand it so that ten years from now, when they hit a real-world problem, they actually remember how to apply it? That's what teaching is supposed to be.

It’s a good thing Americans aren't smart. Seriously. If they actually had any brains, how much further behind would people like us be? We wouldn't even be able to compete.

How much culture does bread actually bring to the table? When it's time to settle a bill, what are you going to do—hand over a few pages from an encyclopedia instead of cash? Or maybe you'll try listing off state capitals instead of paying the actual amount due and expect them to count that as payment?

Well, I'd argue that general knowledge enriches a person in pretty much every conceivable way.
and for a lot of people, it actually does put bread on the table.
being a baker, a machinist, or an auto body technician aren't the only ways to make a living, no offense intended to anyone.
in certain higher-level career paths, having the fact that you once heard of Chicago actually helps you out quite a bit, whether you believe it or not.😉

urbantinker8 said:I honestly don't know any sane person who finds "easier" to just wing it through a lecture.
but then again, I do know how easy it is to troll people who spout this kind of nonsense.☕

Well, I'd argue that general knowledge enriches a person in pretty much every conceivable way.
and for a lot of people, it actually does put bread on the table.
being a baker, a machinist, or an auto body technician aren't the only ways to make a living, no offense intended to anyone.
in certain higher-level career paths, having the fact that you once heard of Chicago actually helps you out quite a bit, whether you believe it or not.😉

It’s much easier to just force kids to memorize stuff than it is to actually try and make them understand it.

urbantinker8 said:I honestly don't know any sane person who finds "easier" to just wing it through a lecture.
but then again, I do know how easy it is to troll people who spout this kind of nonsense.☕

Well, I'd argue that general knowledge enriches a person in pretty much every conceivable way.
and for a lot of people, it actually does put bread on the table.
being a baker, a machinist, or an auto body technician aren't the only ways to make a living, no offense intended to anyone.
in certain higher-level career paths, having the fact that you once heard of Chicago actually helps you out quite a bit, whether you believe it or not.😉

Having a broad perspective and actually knowing things is all well and good, but let’s be honest—it isn't exactly a requirement anymore. In today's world, being well-informed is more of a liability than an asset.
There are actually professions where having a shred of general culture matters. Those fields are fueled by the three guys mentioned above and their managers—without them, all those "cultured" types wouldn't have anything to talk about. They’d be completely empty.

nimblelynx7 said:It’s much easier to just force kids to memorize stuff than it is to actually try and make them understand it.

Having a broad perspective and actually knowing things is all well and good, but let’s be honest—it isn't exactly a requirement anymore. In today's world, being well-informed is more of a liability than an asset.
There are actually professions where having a shred of general culture matters. Those fields are fueled by the three guys mentioned above and their managers—without them, all those "cultured" types wouldn't have anything to talk about. They’d be completely empty.

Actually, I don't think that's true at all.

nimblelynx7 said:It’s much easier to just force kids to memorize stuff than it is to actually try and make them understand it.

Having a broad perspective and actually knowing things is all well and good, but let’s be honest—it isn't exactly a requirement anymore. In today's world, being well-informed is more of a liability than an asset.
There are actually professions where having a shred of general culture matters. Those fields are fueled by the three guys mentioned above and their managers—without them, all those "cultured" types wouldn't have anything to talk about. They’d be completely empty.

Good grief, please spare us these kinds of takes.
I can't say I've ever heard of someone being held back by having general culture or actual knowledge.🤦

urbantinker8 said:Actually, I don't think that's true at all.

Good grief, please spare us these kinds of takes.
I can't say I've ever heard of someone being held back by having general culture or actual knowledge.🤦

Unfortunately, the old saying "ignorance is bliss" rings true today. It’s what happens when you see everything, connect all the dots, and just end up frustrated while everyone else looks at you like you're the crazy one—and frankly, they aren't wrong. But fine, let's drift into philosophy now, shall we?

We saw a perfect example here, caught right on camera, of how much easier it is for students—and even their moms—to just Google a specific statistic like population density rather than actually looking at a map. It’s much simpler than trying to connect the dots between topography, climate, and geography to make an educated guess about whether a region is sparsely or densely populated.

It’s that classic case of wanting the answer without doing the heavy lifting. It’s like asking, "Just give me the number; why do I even need to think or reason through this?"

Then comes the inevitable backlash where they start blaming the entire school system, the teachers, or even the textbook authors for the fact that they're being taught to actually learn things.

Parents 😍

And John Doe 😍