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School Reform: Thoughts?

Started by Karen Richardson3 · · 👁 93 views · 1.7K replies

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Participants Karen Richardson3rowdypanther12urbantinker8Charles Murphy6wanderinggardener12Arthur Hernandez6brightheron64Terry Cooper69jadetinker85Rachel Jones8David Palmer5Benjamin Wilson4analogseal18silentraven6Jason MorganAngela Wright4Susan Jamesnimblelynx7David Jackson2Chloe Roberts2Jonathan Ortiz2Emily Gonzalez51Brandon Brooks11Susan Nguyen54 …
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#841 ·
Michael Nguyen2 said:"In India, they have this anti-natalist policy—if two people get sterilized, they get handed a rifle." S.M. 🤣

Man, geography... back in my day, it was treated like history, which some teachers taught based on whatever vague version of the past lived in their heads.
During freshman and sophomore year of high school, we had this one teacher where we didn't even bother using an atlas. We just gave up because her entire teaching style was basically "dictate and transcribe." Trying to answer all the exam questions in 45 minutes was a massive stretch, especially since she’d always throw in some random question she never actually mentioned in class. Even for the straight-A students, just scraping a C was a struggle. And honestly? It wasn't even about the grade being low... it was more that everyone was cheating so blatantly, and when you're stuck in a tiny class listening to a lecture that's soul-crushing, the last thing you want is to be "equal" to the kids who are absolute pros at sneaking answers.

Then junior year rolled around and we got a different teacher... boy... 👍
She actually expected us to, as someone else already pointed out, draw conclusions based on things like terrain or climate patterns. We even had—get this—blank maps. Since we were offered a third language in junior year, I actually sacrificed a few other subjects to focus on what I actually liked. So, by the end of junior year, I ended up with a B in geography. My teacher even asked if I wanted to try for an A at the end of the term. I told her, "Don't bother!"

Ah, reforms... from the glory days of HBO to the disastrous failure of LeBron James and now these current train wrecks... they're making Informatics mandatory for two years in middle school... great idea, guys. 👍
You can't run reforms without:
windows that don't fall out of the frame
curtains
air conditioning
functional internet
CD players
a 1:1 student-to-computer ratio
photocopy paper available on demand
renovated gymnasiums
toilet paper and soap whenever you need them
science labs for chem, physics, and bio where the equipment-to-student ratio is at least 1:3

Treating basic, prosaic milestones of civilization as the primary goal of education. Real visionary stuff.

Tech teachers will show you how to build a ship just as well as they show you how to build a robot, provided they actually have the tools—or if the publisher packs them in that little kit that comes with the textbook, assuming those kits even still exist.

I guess I agree.👍

On top of that, I think wise ministers should probably consider WHO is actually going to be teaching computer science en masse once they decide to roll it out from kindergarten through high school.
It’s one thing to spout empty rhetoric that the general public finds comforting, but it's quite another to face the actual reality of the American education system.
I find myself doubting that folks with degrees from places like MIT would see teaching elementary coding as their absolute dream job.🤣
So, we'll likely end up dealing with negative selection all over again, and I suspect we'll just be spinning our wheels for the next hundred years.🤦
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#842 ·
Maybe they’ll finally start hiring all those K-12 teachers who specialized in computer science 😉 😬
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#843 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:Maybe they’ll finally start hiring all those K-12 teachers who specialized in computer science 😉 😬

Well, maybe.😁

But I guess we’re still stuck with all those empty classrooms in the K-12 system, regardless.🤔
In the end, it’ll probably just turn into a situation where anyone with even a basic grasp of a laptop can step in and teach it.
I mean, I honestly don't see many graduates from places like MIT or Caltech actually rushing to get jobs in local public schools.😁
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#844 ·
If you run the RN with the boost turned up, it can handle the target load too—so you've basically got your base coverage sorted out.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#845 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:If you run the RN with the boost turned up, it can handle the target load too—so you've basically got your base coverage sorted out.

but that’s my point, I guess: they’ll start whining about how the staff is technologically illiterate, claiming teachers can't actually teach the kids anything useful, or that we aren't striving for excellence, or that our children deserve nothing less than the absolute best professors. just a whole lot of endless, repetitive noise.
but the reality is probably more mundane; it'll likely come down to choosing between someone with a degree in telecommunications from a transit authority and a teacher who just took some extra computer science credits.
plus, we'll probably still end up with ten students crammed around one ancient, prehistoric desktop because, well, funding isn't exactly falling from the sky.

honestly, I'm almost looking forward to hearing what the parents have to say about this whole mess.🍿
right now, nobody is really giving it much thought; it seems like you just need to toss out some buzzwords like "STEM," "digital literacy," or "coding," and everyone bites immediately once you start throwing around terms like "gigabytes"...🙂
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#846 ·
As a parent, I’m curious about what the computer science curriculum actually covers. Is it just basic digital literacy—learning how to navigate a PC, installing software, and troubleshooting common hardware or software glitches—or will they actually get into programming?
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#847 ·
rowdypanther12 said:As a parent, I’m curious about what the computer science curriculum actually covers. Is it just basic digital literacy—learning how to navigate a PC, installing software, and troubleshooting common hardware or software glitches—or will they actually get into programming?

Maybe just ask the Secretary of Education.
It feels like she’s the one who supposedly has all the answers to everything.😁
All jokes aside, though, you could have a written curriculum that is absolutely flawless, filled with the most cutting-edge methods and incredibly inventive learning goals.

BUT

without the right equipment or qualified teachers in the classrooms, none of that really matters.☕

I guess the folks at the top of the ladder just don't quite grasp that reality, and that's that.
Michael Nguyen2 Michael Nguyen2 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Dec 2017
#848 ·
I stumbled upon this old proposal for the national curriculum (mind you, this was drafted back when Johnson’s crew was running things in 2014):
''Because school grades serve such specific roles in guiding the pedagogical process during mandatory schooling, we should avoid handing out top marks too frequently. If we do, we lose the actual educational purpose and weight behind the grading system.''

And here is how they envisioned it breaking down:

Passing
''It is assumed the student is capable of achieving more; additional effort is expected from them.''

Good
''The evaluator is satisfied with the student's achievement because the student met everything required by the subject's educational standards.''

Very Good
''Only if the student's work, or exam result, exceeds expectations is it described as 'very good.' This should signify that the examiner is satisfied beyond the standard requirements, meaning the student's performance warrants recognition for both quality and effort.''

Excellent
''The student stood out through originality, superior quality, and significant effort. Such students are rare, so this grade shouldn't be handed out too often; giving it to a huge number of students would dilute its true meaning.''

Johnson hasn't been around for ages, but honestly, the idea itself is pretty interesting.
nimblelynx7 nimblelynx7 Regular
336 messages
joined Jul 2016
#849 ·
Larry Walker24 said:This is exactly what they should be teaching at PIG.

You can't cram all of that into PIG; there just isn't enough time.
You spend maybe two hours in elementary school learning how interest rates work, but instead, you're forced to memorize lists of casualties from WWII—because apparently, that's the "essential" knowledge we need.

Learning how to actually write a formal complaint or an objection? That's never taught. Instead, American English class focuses on essays about what you did over summer break—which basically gives teachers a window into your family life—and endless praise for Hemingway's poetry. If you dare to write that you don't actually like a Hemingway poem, you're looking at a failing grade.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#850 ·
nimblelynx7 said:You can't cram all of that into PIG; there just isn't enough time.
You spend maybe two hours in elementary school learning how interest rates work, but instead, you're forced to memorize lists of casualties from WWII—because apparently, that's the "essential" knowledge we need.

Learning how to actually write a formal complaint or an objection? That's never taught. Instead, American English class focuses on essays about what you did over summer break—which basically gives teachers a window into your family life—and endless praise for Hemingway's poetry. If you dare to write that you don't actually like a Hemingway poem, you're looking at a failing grade.

Again, you're just... sorry, caricaturing things.

Interest rates are covered in various subjects, depending on how specialized the school is, I guess.
As for writing official correspondence, that’s practiced intensively in foreign language classes; I actually know quite a few English teachers who somehow manage to squeeze that into the curriculum.
The stuff about summer vacations is what younger kids in elementary school write about. That seems pretty normal, I suppose. Or do you think eight or nine-year-olds should be expected to know how to draft a resume and a cover letter?🙄

For me, the absolute peak of this absurdity has to be those essays on the SATs. These silly American gimmicks involving strict word counts and such low literacy requirements just to pass the first level really ought to be abolished.
But noooo, that's "external assessment," and we aren't allowed to touch that.😲
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#851 ·
Michael Nguyen2 said:"In India, they have this anti-natalist policy—if two people get sterilized, they get handed a rifle." S.M. 🤣

Man, geography... back in my day, it was treated like history, which some teachers taught based on whatever vague version of the past lived in their heads.
During freshman and sophomore year of high school, we had this one teacher where we didn't even bother using an atlas. We just gave up because her entire teaching style was basically "dictate and transcribe." Trying to answer all the exam questions in 45 minutes was a massive stretch, especially since she’d always throw in some random question she never actually mentioned in class. Even for the straight-A students, just scraping a C was a struggle. And honestly? It wasn't even about the grade being low... it was more that everyone was cheating so blatantly, and when you're stuck in a tiny class listening to a lecture that's soul-crushing, the last thing you want is to be "equal" to the kids who are absolute pros at sneaking answers.

Then junior year rolled around and we got a different teacher... boy... 👍
She actually expected us to, as someone else already pointed out, draw conclusions based on things like terrain or climate patterns. We even had—get this—blank maps. Since we were offered a third language in junior year, I actually sacrificed a few other subjects to focus on what I actually liked. So, by the end of junior year, I ended up with a B in geography. My teacher even asked if I wanted to try for an A at the end of the term. I told her, "Don't bother!"

Ah, reforms... from the glory days of HBO to the disastrous failure of LeBron James and now these current train wrecks... they're making Informatics mandatory for two years in middle school... great idea, guys. 👍
You can't run reforms without:
windows that don't fall out of the frame
curtains
air conditioning
functional internet
CD players
a 1:1 student-to-computer ratio
photocopy paper available on demand
renovated gymnasiums
toilet paper and soap whenever you need them
science labs for chem, physics, and bio where the equipment-to-student ratio is at least 1:3

Treating basic, prosaic milestones of civilization as the primary goal of education. Real visionary stuff.

Tech teachers will show you how to build a ship just as well as they show you how to build a robot, provided they actually have the tools—or if the publisher packs them in that little kit that comes with the textbook, assuming those kits even still exist.

That's why they'll probably focus on equipping schools for photographers (which really should be a course, not a three-year vocational trade), hairdressers (who we have plenty of exporting right now), or painters and wallpaper installers (tasks most DIY enthusiasts handle just fine using a few YouTube tutorials without needing formal schooling)....

I've been thinking about this for a few days—all these "modernized" career paths. It honestly feels like it's just a way to prevent certain teaching positions from being phased out. Now, reading the news, it looks like they're even targeting specific workshops for funding... and when I say "funding," I mean finding ways to wash through European Union grants. 🕺

At the end of the day, no curriculum reform makes any sense unless you have motivated, enthusiastic teachers who actually believe in their mission and are ready to defend their teaching methods against both parental pressure and passing trends.
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#852 ·
urbantinker8 said:Again, you're just... sorry, caricaturing things.

Interest rates are covered in various subjects, depending on how specialized the school is, I guess.
As for writing official correspondence, that’s practiced intensively in foreign language classes; I actually know quite a few English teachers who somehow manage to squeeze that into the curriculum.
The stuff about summer vacations is what younger kids in elementary school write about. That seems pretty normal, I suppose. Or do you think eight or nine-year-olds should be expected to know how to draft a resume and a cover letter?🙄

For me, the absolute peak of this absurdity has to be those essays on the SATs. These silly American gimmicks involving strict word counts and such low literacy requirements just to pass the first level really ought to be abolished.
But noooo, that's "external assessment," and we aren't allowed to touch that.😲

And most importantly, a colleague of mine over in the States told me students REFUSE to learn anything that won't show up on the SATs, basically saying there's no point in learning it.

Don't even get me started on the kids we see coming out of middle school who can't even handle basic math problems involving numbers up to 10 and some parentheses!!!

As for everything else regarding the American language, I already covered that in another thread so I won't repeat myself.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#853 ·
venera_veritas said:That sounds like something a guy who thinks he’s a tactical genius while sitting on his couch watching the NFL would say.

😂
Susan James said:That's why they'll probably focus on equipping schools for photographers (which really should be a course, not a three-year vocational trade), hairdressers (who we have plenty of exporting right now), or painters and wallpaper installers (tasks most DIY enthusiasts handle just fine using a few YouTube tutorials without needing formal schooling)....

I've been thinking about this for a few days—all these "modernized" career paths. It honestly feels like it's just a way to prevent certain teaching positions from being phased out. Now, reading the news, it looks like they're even targeting specific workshops for funding... and when I say "funding," I mean finding ways to wash through European Union grants. 🕺

At the end of the day, no curriculum reform makes any sense unless you have motivated, enthusiastic teachers who actually believe in their mission and are ready to defend their teaching methods against both parental pressure and passing trends.

...and you're only going to find someone like that once people stop constantly criticizing the profession, stop trying to micromanage how teachers do their jobs (you know, those people who think they know better than the actual experts), once decent working conditions are actually provided (adequate space, supplies, reasonable class sizes...), and once we end the negative selection process caused by salaries that are, frankly, hovering somewhere around what a cashier makes at a decent big-box retailer.☕

Regarding outfitting those photography classrooms, do you actually have a link for that, or were you just using it as a figure of speech?
Because I genuinely doubt those claims, especially since even various cabinet members put computers at the top of the priority list before anything else. We'll probably never actually see them arrive, but it sure is nice to talk about them.🙂
And by the way, there's a chronic shortage of hairdressers; I have a few friends who run their own salons and they've been struggling to find employees for years. Part of that is probably because everyone wants to be their own boss nowadays and nobody wants to work for someone else, but then again, if there wasn't demand, those salons wouldn't be packed and the prices wouldn't be so sky-high.😒
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#854 ·
urbantinker8 said:😂

...and you're only going to find someone like that once people stop constantly criticizing the profession, stop trying to micromanage how teachers do their jobs (you know, those people who think they know better than the actual experts), once decent working conditions are actually provided (adequate space, supplies, reasonable class sizes...), and once we end the negative selection process caused by salaries that are, frankly, hovering somewhere around what a cashier makes at a decent big-box retailer.☕

Regarding outfitting those photography classrooms, do you actually have a link for that, or were you just using it as a figure of speech?
Because I genuinely doubt those claims, especially since even various cabinet members put computers at the top of the priority list before anything else. We'll probably never actually see them arrive, but it sure is nice to talk about them.🙂
And by the way, there's a chronic shortage of hairdressers; I have a few friends who run their own salons and they've been struggling to find employees for years. Part of that is probably because everyone wants to be their own boss nowadays and nobody wants to work for someone else, but then again, if there wasn't demand, those salons wouldn't be packed and the prices wouldn't be so sky-high.😒

I read that on this thread recently.
It was sandwiched between a debate about whether kids need to know population densities in Asia and a discussion on whether teachers or parents know better.

The Secretary was on CBS live last week mentioning plans for vocational reform in trade professions—I remember her bringing up flooring installers—and in the article someone linked here, they mention photographers, hairstylists, painters, and more...

I have nothing against reforming trade professions. In fact, I think modernization is necessary to meet labor market demands. We also need to change parents' mindsets and motivate kids so they don't view these jobs as "beneath" them; these careers can put food on the table—good food, too! There's a massive shortage of plumbers, electricians, and skilled tradespeople in general. It's not just the good ones (who actually know what they're doing); there's a general lack of people entering the workforce in these fields. They either head overseas where the pay is much better, or they don't enroll at all because they think it's "low-class" work.

My only concern is that instead of improving training conditions for high-demand trades, the focus seems to be on improving conditions for schools with principals who prioritize squeezing out funding (which the Secretary even openly admitted). That money ends up being used for equipment, including stuff for photography programs.
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#855 ·
urbantinker8 said:😂

...and you're only going to find someone like that once people stop constantly criticizing the profession, stop trying to micromanage how teachers do their jobs (you know, those people who think they know better than the actual experts), once decent working conditions are actually provided (adequate space, supplies, reasonable class sizes...), and once we end the negative selection process caused by salaries that are, frankly, hovering somewhere around what a cashier makes at a decent big-box retailer.☕

Regarding outfitting those photography classrooms, do you actually have a link for that, or were you just using it as a figure of speech?
Because I genuinely doubt those claims, especially since even various cabinet members put computers at the top of the priority list before anything else. We'll probably never actually see them arrive, but it sure is nice to talk about them.🙂
And by the way, there's a chronic shortage of hairdressers; I have a few friends who run their own salons and they've been struggling to find employees for years. Part of that is probably because everyone wants to be their own boss nowadays and nobody wants to work for someone else, but then again, if there wasn't demand, those salons wouldn't be packed and the prices wouldn't be so sky-high.😒

Parents will stop interfering once you stop asking for their permission for everything, stop calling them into school for every little hiccup, showing them every single test score, and begging them to help the kids study.

Honestly, seeing how much debate has flared up here over minor details—like whether certain facts in a geography lesson are being taught or not—makes it pretty obvious how much energy is being wasted on trivialities. It lets parents dictate how you do your job, and usually, they just end up criticizing it.
The Secretary of Education is doing the exact same thing with her proposed education law changes. It’s such a shame that as professionals, you didn't step up and react to that.
In the online consultation proposals, there's a ton of copy-paste nonsense from people demanding homeschooling or insisting that parents are the ultimate authority on their child's upbringing and should be left entirely to their own devices.
But hey, once the law passes, at least we'll have legalized the flaws in our school system. That'll probably lead to even more chaos in the classroom, since parents will likely have to give permission for every school counselor or psychologist visit. I wouldn't be surprised if it extends to medical checkups too, because apparently, the parent is always right. That's what the Secretary says, anyway,)
If you look at the link, you can see how underserved communities are facing pressure regarding where USA funds should be directed. To me, that’s further proof that some schools need urgent modernization before others (and I'm pretty sure training photographers and hairstylists isn't a national priority... unless being a blogger or YouTuber is one of the top career goals for kids these days?)
Brandon Foster7 Brandon Foster7 Active Member
56 messages
joined Dec 2018
#856 ·
That’s pretty much spot on for high school.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#857 ·
Susan James said:Parents will stop interfering once you stop asking for their permission for everything, stop calling them into school for every little hiccup, showing them every single test score, and begging them to help the kids study.

Honestly, seeing how much debate has flared up here over minor details—like whether certain facts in a geography lesson are being taught or not—makes it pretty obvious how much energy is being wasted on trivialities. It lets parents dictate how you do your job, and usually, they just end up criticizing it.
The Secretary of Education is doing the exact same thing with her proposed education law changes. It’s such a shame that as professionals, you didn't step up and react to that.
In the online consultation proposals, there's a ton of copy-paste nonsense from people demanding homeschooling or insisting that parents are the ultimate authority on their child's upbringing and should be left entirely to their own devices.
But hey, once the law passes, at least we'll have legalized the flaws in our school system. That'll probably lead to even more chaos in the classroom, since parents will likely have to give permission for every school counselor or psychologist visit. I wouldn't be surprised if it extends to medical checkups too, because apparently, the parent is always right. That's what the Secretary says, anyway,)
If you look at the link, you can see how underserved communities are facing pressure regarding where USA funds should be directed. To me, that’s further proof that some schools need urgent modernization before others (and I'm pretty sure training photographers and hairstylists isn't a national priority... unless being a blogger or YouTuber is one of the top career goals for kids these days?)

As Summer would probably put it, I can swear on my life that I have never allowed my parents to interfere with my job in any capacity, other than maybe some parenting advice.
I mean, I have never once called a parent, unless there was some absolute disaster happening in my classroom (God forbid🙂) or if I felt like proactively sharing test results or expecting them to sit down and study with their kids.🙂
Not when I was teaching elementary school, and certainly not when I moved up to middle school.

Yet somehow, they still find ways to meddle. It seems like people get defensive the moment they hit a wall because they've crossed a line of professional etiquette or tried to play armchair expert regarding my field (even if they won't admit it's mine and not theirs).
Personally, I tend to deal with people pretty quickly if they actually deserve to be checked.🙂🥳

But unfortunately, not everyone works that way, and I suppose we aren't going to see any real progress or meaningful reforms as long as things stay stuck in this cycle.
nimblelynx7 nimblelynx7 Regular
336 messages
joined Jul 2016
#858 ·
urbantinker8 said:Again, you're just... sorry, caricaturing things.

Interest rates are covered in various subjects, depending on how specialized the school is, I guess.
As for writing official correspondence, that’s practiced intensively in foreign language classes; I actually know quite a few English teachers who somehow manage to squeeze that into the curriculum.
The stuff about summer vacations is what younger kids in elementary school write about. That seems pretty normal, I suppose. Or do you think eight or nine-year-olds should be expected to know how to draft a resume and a cover letter?🙄

For me, the absolute peak of this absurdity has to be those essays on the SATs. These silly American gimmicks involving strict word counts and such low literacy requirements just to pass the first level really ought to be abolished.
But noooo, that's "external assessment," and we aren't allowed to touch that.😲

I went to a technical high school, and interest rates weren't mentioned once—not even in a P&G class. If I had gone to a business school, maybe they would have discussed them more, but only 10% of students go to business school, so what happens to the rest?

Susan James said:That's why they'll probably focus on equipping schools for photographers (which really should be a course, not a three-year vocational trade), hairdressers (who we have plenty of exporting right now), or painters and wallpaper installers (tasks most DIY enthusiasts handle just fine using a few YouTube tutorials without needing formal schooling)....

I've been thinking about this for a few days—all these "modernized" career paths. It honestly feels like it's just a way to prevent certain teaching positions from being phased out. Now, reading the news, it looks like they're even targeting specific workshops for funding... and when I say "funding," I mean finding ways to wash through European Union grants. 🕺

At the end of the day, no curriculum reform makes any sense unless you have motivated, enthusiastic teachers who actually believe in their mission and are ready to defend their teaching methods against both parental pressure and passing trends.

A friend of mine has done photography his whole life; he started as a hobbyist and is now a semi-pro. He wanted to open a photo studio, but it turns out he’s "unqualified" because the state requires a specific vocational degree to run a photography business, and since he's an electrical engineer, he doesn't qualify as a photographer.

Of course, the goal is to save teaching jobs. The entire school system exists primarily for that purpose (other reasons include heating the buildings and selling textbooks). If the school system actually cared about the students, it would collapse from pure shame.

Larry Walker24 said:And most importantly, a colleague of mine over in the States told me students REFUSE to learn anything that won't show up on the SATs, basically saying there's no point in learning it.

Don't even get me started on the kids we see coming out of middle school who can't even handle basic math problems involving numbers up to 10 and some parentheses!!!

As for everything else regarding the American language, I already covered that in another thread so I won't repeat myself.

Naturally, despite teachers acting like kids are just stupid, incompetent, or products of even worse parents, the kids have actually figured out how the system works. It’s all about cramming today and forgetting tomorrow, because once graduation hits, nobody cares—certainly not in the real world. In school, you aren't actually learning anything useful anyway.

Larry Walker24 said:And most importantly, a colleague of mine over in the States told me students REFUSE to learn anything that won't show up on the SATs, basically saying there's no point in learning it.

Don't even get me started on the kids we see coming out of middle school who can't even handle basic math problems involving numbers up to 10 and some parentheses!!!

As for everything else regarding the American language, I already covered that in another thread so I won't repeat myself.

It’s always the previous grade level's fault that kids aren't ready for the next step. The biggest culprits are the mothers who spent their pregnancies reading tabloids instead of Leo Tolstoy or Goethe, and clearly didn't spend enough time solving double integrals.

Susan James said:Parents will stop interfering once you stop asking for their permission for everything, stop calling them into school for every little hiccup, showing them every single test score, and begging them to help the kids study.

Honestly, seeing how much debate has flared up here over minor details—like whether certain facts in a geography lesson are being taught or not—makes it pretty obvious how much energy is being wasted on trivialities. It lets parents dictate how you do your job, and usually, they just end up criticizing it.
The Secretary of Education is doing the exact same thing with her proposed education law changes. It’s such a shame that as professionals, you didn't step up and react to that.
In the online consultation proposals, there's a ton of copy-paste nonsense from people demanding homeschooling or insisting that parents are the ultimate authority on their child's upbringing and should be left entirely to their own devices.
But hey, once the law passes, at least we'll have legalized the flaws in our school system. That'll probably lead to even more chaos in the classroom, since parents will likely have to give permission for every school counselor or psychologist visit. I wouldn't be surprised if it extends to medical checkups too, because apparently, the parent is always right. That's what the Secretary says, anyway,)
If you look at the link, you can see how underserved communities are facing pressure regarding where USA funds should be directed. To me, that’s further proof that some schools need urgent modernization before others (and I'm pretty sure training photographers and hairstylists isn't a national priority... unless being a blogger or YouTuber is one of the top career goals for kids these days?)

Amen!

They pat themselves on the back for their "expertise" and then go and blame the parents.

Are they, and to what extent, willing to pay parents to actually do their jobs for them?
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#859 ·
I guess I should probably start by saying that I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately, though I’m not entirely sure if it matters much in the grand scheme of things. It seems like we often find ourselves circling back to these same old patterns, almost as if we’re stuck in some kind of loop that we can't quite break out of, even when we know better. Maybe it’s just the way things work, or perhaps it's just us being human, which is its own kind of complication, I suppose. Anyway, looking at what urbantinker8 was saying, it really does make you wonder about the underlying reasons for why we react the way we do when faced with these kinds of shifts in our daily lives. It’s a bit subtle, isn't it? Not something you notice right away, but once it hits you, it lingers. I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, but there's definitely something there worth pondering if one has the patience for it.
nimblelynx7 said:I went to a technical high school, and interest rates weren't mentioned once—not even in a P&G class. If I had gone to a business school, maybe they would have discussed them more, but only 10% of students go to business school, so what happens to the rest?

A friend of mine has done photography his whole life; he started as a hobbyist and is now a semi-pro. He wanted to open a photo studio, but it turns out he’s "unqualified" because the state requires a specific vocational degree to run a photography business, and since he's an electrical engineer, he doesn't qualify as a photographer.

Of course, the goal is to save teaching jobs. The entire school system exists primarily for that purpose (other reasons include heating the buildings and selling textbooks). If the school system actually cared about the students, it would collapse from pure shame.

Naturally, despite teachers acting like kids are just stupid, incompetent, or products of even worse parents, the kids have actually figured out how the system works. It’s all about cramming today and forgetting tomorrow, because once graduation hits, nobody cares—certainly not in the real world. In school, you aren't actually learning anything useful anyway.

It’s always the previous grade level's fault that kids aren't ready for the next step. The biggest culprits are the mothers who spent their pregnancies reading tabloids instead of Leo Tolstoy or Goethe, and clearly didn't spend enough time solving double integrals.

Amen!

They pat themselves on the back for their "expertise" and then go and blame the parents.

Are they, and to what extent, willing to pay parents to actually do their jobs for them?

Are you honestly convinced that the curriculum and all those training programs haven't shifted one bit in the twenty years since you finished that famous technical institute of yours? I mean, I guess it’s possible, though it seems unlikely, given how much everything tends to drift over such a long stretch of time.
I suppose you’re under the impression that if someone didn't learn it directly from PIG, then nobody else—neither before nor after your tenure—ever bothered to learn it at all, right?
I was just wondering where you actually pulled that 10% figure from regarding students in business schools and similar vocational programs? I guess I might have missed the specific study or report you're looking at, maybe, since I haven't come across those exact numbers in my own reading lately.

I’m interested in all of it, really. Please, feel free to share whatever is on your mind.☕

I guess I should probably start by saying that I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately, though I’m not entirely sure if anyone else has even noticed the shift in how things are moving. It feels like we’re constantly being told one thing, only to have the reality on the ground turn out to be something else entirely, which I suppose is just how life works most of the time, isn't it? I was reading through some old discussions—you know, the kind where people used to actually sit down and weigh the pros and cons without rushing to a conclusion—and it struck me how much the tone has changed. Maybe it’s just me, or maybe it’s the general atmosphere of the country right now, but there seems to be this constant pressure to have an immediate, loud opinion on everything. I tend to prefer a more measured approach, I guess, where you let the dust settle before deciding if something is actually a disaster or just a minor hiccup in the grand scheme of things. It’s easy to get swept up in the noise, but I find myself drifting toward those quieter, more contemplative corners of the internet where people still value nuance. Or perhaps I'm just getting older and more cynical, which is always a possibility, but I think there's a certain dignity in waiting to see how the pieces fall into place before making a definitive statement. It’s a slow process, I know, and it might not be particularly exciting for everyone, but it feels like the only way to stay somewhat grounded when everything else feels so incredibly frantic.
I suppose I’ve been sitting here wondering, somewhat aimlessly, about the whole dynamic between teachers and parents lately, specifically regarding whether there's any actual willingness on the part of educators to essentially pay parents to step in and do their jobs. It sounds like a bit of a wild concept when you first say it out loud, doesn't it? But I guess if you look at the current state of the American education system—where everyone seems a little burnt out and stretched thin—you start to wonder where the lines are drawn. I mean, is there really a scenario where a teacher might feel compelled to compensate a parent just to handle some of the administrative or instructional heavy lifting that they simply don't have the bandwidth for anymore? Maybe it's more about a subtle exchange of value than literal cash, though I suppose that's a bit of a stretch. It feels like we're entering this strange territory where the traditional roles are getting all blurred, and I can't quite decide if it's a practical solution to a systemic problem or just a sign that things are becoming increasingly disorganized. I guess it depends on how you view the responsibility of the school versus the home, which is a conversation that never really seems to end.
Of course not, goodness gracious.🙂
It’s more of a philosophical question than anything else, I suppose, but it really gets at the heart of things—how much would you actually be willing to pay, and to what extent, just to have me handle the responsibilities of a surgeon for you?🙂
I suppose if I weren't actually getting paid to do my job, most people wouldn't even let me draw a single sheep for them, let alone trust me to watch over their livestock or try teaching their kids anything at all.☕
I guess there’s a small, somewhat stubborn part of me that actually finds itself craving homeschooling, if I’m being honest. It’s just this nagging feeling that if everyone were forced to step outside the traditional system, they might finally open their eyes and realize how much time they’ve spent tearing things down for absolutely no reason at all. Maybe people would stop all that senseless finger-pointing once they actually had to face the reality of it themselves.
I suppose people could just go back to focusing on their actual jobs, leaving education—and honestly, a pretty significant chunk of upbringing too—to the professionals who actually specialize in that field and know how to handle it properly.🥳
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#860 ·
@JohnDoe-25, I remember learning about interest rates back when I was in seventh grade in middle school (I think that was about 🤣 years ago).
And I’m pretty sure kids are still being taught the exact same thing, along with percentages, in seventh grade today.
Middle school is mandatory,
and seventh grade is part of that core curriculum,
so everyone gets the chance to learn it.

So, what are you actually suggesting regarding interest calculations?
Should we increase math hours in seventh grade so kids get more practice?
Or maybe tighten up the grading criteria for units that cover interest?
Or should bankers come in and teach it instead of math teachers?
What’s your take? If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re an instructor yourself, so go ahead—how would you pass this info on to kids and teens?

Again, the material is already in the school system. How would you organize the process so these kids truly grasp it, see how it works in the real world, and actually remember it by the time they're applying for credit?
(Word problems, reading comprehension, basic addition and subtraction are all covered in the earlier elementary grades. Playing "store" or "grocery shop" is something they start in preschool, though you'll often see older kids playing it during after-school programs right around the time they master their basic arithmetic...)

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