School Reform: Thoughts?

Honestly, it’s getting a bit tedious. It feels like every time you write a long post here, you get hit with the exact same set of complaints from certain people:
- Students are just lazy, dim-witted, or completely illiterate—it's just getting worse by the day.
- Parents and school inspectors are teaming up to bully innocent teachers for no reason at all.
- We aren't being paid nearly enough.
- Everything is somehow the fault of Divjak, Nikola Jokić, or the latest reform.

It always circles back to this same old mantra.
Teachers are never actually at fault; if they happen to be even slightly responsible, well, it’s "not their fault" because the blame belongs to everything listed above.
QED.

There is zero critical thinking happening outside of this bubble...

Has anyone actually seen a single person claim that teachers are never, ever at fault for anything?🤔
I suppose it’s just the easiest way to spin an argument when you've run out of actual points to make or if you don't really have a clue what you're talking about in the first place.

rowdypanther12 said:You guys are talking about grades, but I’m actually referring to how we pass the entire learning process down to our kids

Look, I'm telling you straight: I couldn't handle things that way, and frankly, I shouldn't have to. Sure, you need to explain stuff, but there has to be a limit. Nowadays, those boundaries just don't exist anymore.

When I was in school, did a teacher ever hand me an assignment and then offer to help me out at any random hour of the day or night? Not once. And don't get me started on all those "detailed instructions" and other nonsense. You got a task, you did it, and you figured it out yourself. You brought it to class, they gave you a grade—whatever that grade was—and they didn't even bother explaining why you got it. If I wasn't happy with my mark, I just told myself, "Alright, I guess I need to try harder next time," and that was that.

What really trips me out is your claim that a modern teacher can't afford to explain things because if they explain too much, people end up acting like they're doing a bad job.

Yet another installment in the "kids these days are just incompetent/clueless/useless" saga...

☕

Michelle Nelson4 said:Yet another installment in the "kids these days are just incompetent/clueless/useless" saga...

☕

No, they aren't stupid. It's just that parents and everyone else in their lives are basically raising them to be helpless.

I remember one teacher once told me, "Look, I'm only stuck with these kids for four years, but their parents are going to be dealing with them for the rest of their lives," so honestly, good luck to them.

rustybison462 said:Look, I'm telling you straight: I couldn't handle things that way, and frankly, I shouldn't have to. Sure, you need to explain stuff, but there has to be a limit. Nowadays, those boundaries just don't exist anymore.

When I was in school, did a teacher ever hand me an assignment and then offer to help me out at any random hour of the day or night? Not once. And don't get me started on all those "detailed instructions" and other nonsense. You got a task, you did it, and you figured it out yourself. You brought it to class, they gave you a grade—whatever that grade was—and they didn't even bother explaining why you got it. If I wasn't happy with my mark, I just told myself, "Alright, I guess I need to try harder next time," and that was that.

What really trips me out is your claim that a modern teacher can't afford to explain things because if they explain too much, people end up acting like they're doing a bad job.

I'm not talking about failing to explain an assignment; I'm talking about the actual COURSE MATERIAL. 😁
Students should study the material themselves, learn it, and then complete a project (where they get specific guidelines on *how* to build it, like "use six slides with this layout"). Then, they present what they've mastered to the class. 😁

rustybison462 said:It honestly baffles me that there are teachers out there who just hand out an assignment and then completely check out. Honestly, good for them if they managed to land a job at a school with parents like these.

Me? No. I have to provide hyper-detailed instructions. I basically have to end every single prompt with a bolded note saying they can contact me any time of the day or night if they’re confused or need help. The deadline has to be practically infinite, and I have to offer two separate windows for submission. Only if they fail to turn in anything whatsoever by the second deadline am I allowed to give them a failing grade. Oh, and I almost forgot—I also have to offer them the chance that if they submit by the first deadline, I’ll review it, suggest a grade, list what needs fixing for a better score, and then they have until the next deadline to fix it. Those who wait until the second deadline don't get that luxury.

And even after I go through all that ridiculousness, I'm still certain I won't escape the constant nagging from parents, homeroom teachers, principals, and the administration.

Unfortunately, most students are so lazy that even this level of hand-holding doesn't help them get decent grades. They act like such "know-it-alls," yet they message me constantly because they can't find anything on Google or don't know how to talk to anyone.

It really is terrible. In this age of the internet, it's insane how many kids genuinely don't know how to search for things or even use PowerPoint—even though they've been taking computer classes since elementary school.

It's actually quite alarming how many adults today struggle to find reliable information or lack the critical thinking skills to filter through what they find. If they did know how, we wouldn't see such a massive rise in conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers (but that's a whole different conversation, though it's the main focus of the book I linked).

What's also troubling is seeing adults demand from their children the exact same thing they themselves struggle with—trying to sift through the endless flood of digital content and noise.

I'm not saying all information should only come from old-school encyclopedias, but I do believe that when kids are researching online, they need expert guidance and adult supervision.
Back in the day, around 2007 🤔, the standard advice was to supervise kids online and keep the family computer in the living room to keep things transparent. Smartphones changed all that. Now, instead of that caution, some experts have started giving much bolder instructions: telling kids to use the internet more frequently and more intensely for educational purposes 🙏
.
Computer science wasn't even part of the standard curriculum back when the current middle schoolers were starting out.
The kids currently in 5th through 8th grade didn't have those classes early on.
The high schoolers today had it as an elective during their middle school years, provided the schools had the staffing and scheduling to offer it.
To be clear, I don't think "internet research" should be its own standalone subject in a computer lab. I'm totally fine with students using computers during regular class time—once they've mastered the core concepts—to dig deeper into a topic under a teacher's watchful eye.
But letting them wander aimlessly through Wikipedia on their own? 🙄🤦
(Honestly, I bet even Banozic used Wikipedia while working on his doctorate 😬, which means kids today might follow a teacher's blunt advice to hunt through digital rabbit holes, essentially modeling the behavior of highly educated professionals who accidentally include flawed data in their dissertations.
)
Before you start throwing pedagogical shade at kids for being "lazy" or "incapable," maybe try teaching them something useful or at least take responsibility for the way you're instructing them.
In my experience, all the effort spent writing guides (and even being extra direct about them) doesn't mean a thing if the assignment isn't age-appropriate or if the material hasn't even been covered in class yet.

Kids heading into middle school—grades 5 through 8—have already had their fair share of computer classes. For those entering 5th grade, it was an elective they could've picked up as early as 3rd grade, while the kids moving into 8th grade had it as a mandatory part of the curriculum back in 5th and 6th.
And honestly? You can’t just cut kids off from the internet entirely—I mean, let's be real, it's impossible—so the next best move is just trying to teach them how to use it responsibly.
That includes knowing how to actually search for things, too.
What you guys are all debating over on Moonlight right now—Moonlight, pun intended, I know—is basically "project-based learning." It’s this super hyped-up method where the teacher explains the basics first, then hands out a detailed assignment, and the student learns everything else by researching what they need to get the job done. Theory suggests that information retention and making real connections happens most effectively when you learn that way—by working independently on a concrete task.

Sarah Hall53 said:Kids heading into middle school—grades 5 through 8—have already had their fair share of computer classes. For those entering 5th grade, it was an elective they could've picked up as early as 3rd grade, while the kids moving into 8th grade had it as a mandatory part of the curriculum back in 5th and 6th.
And honestly? You can’t just cut kids off from the internet entirely—I mean, let's be real, it's impossible—so the next best move is just trying to teach them how to use it responsibly.
That includes knowing how to actually search for things, too.
What you guys are all debating over on Moonlight right now—Moonlight, pun intended, I know—is basically "project-based learning." It’s this super hyped-up method where the teacher explains the basics first, then hands out a detailed assignment, and the student learns everything else by researching what they need to get the job done. Theory suggests that information retention and making real connections happens most effectively when you learn that way—by working independently on a concrete task.

In theory, that sounds great. Since I don't have kids that age and don't see them much in my daily life, if I were looking at this objectively, I'd say, "Wow, thanks, that definitely sounds like a better way to learn."
But the issue lies in that "explain the basics" part, because some teachers have started treating these projects like they don't need to explain anything at all.
Then there's the issue of sources; online resources in the US can be hit or miss, often either unreliable or written with a vocabulary that is way too advanced for a 10 to 14-year-old.
Thirdly, a lot of kids simply aren't equipped for this yet. No one ever taught them *how* to learn this way, and they aren't always motivated by gaining knowledge—they're usually just aiming for the grade.

When the process is actually guided—like some teachers still do by working through things alongside the students during class—it works much better.

I'm not sure how or why we've moved away from traditional direct instruction, but I think it needs to be the foundation that modern methods like project-based learning build upon.

The whole thing comes down to the fact that modern teaching actually puts the student front and center, whereas that old-school frontal style? It’s all about the teacher being the star of the show—which, let's be honest, feels like some dusty 19th-century relic. 🙄 Honestly, it is just soooo boring. You end up with students who are basically just sitting there like statues.

Sarah Hall53 said:The whole thing comes down to the fact that modern teaching actually puts the student front and center, whereas that old-school frontal style? It’s all about the teacher being the star of the show—which, let's be honest, feels like some dusty 19th-century relic. 🙄 Honestly, it is just soooo boring. You end up with students who are basically just sitting there like statues.

Well, if the focus is actually on the student, then they should probably be given the tools to make learning easier and more effective 😂
I think I see where you're coming from, but this approach is incredibly frustrating for both the kids (who actually want to learn) and the parents who end up having to redo the work that should have been covered in class.

In my daughter's case, I've seen both sides. It works great when she isn't forced into that "figure it out all by yourself" mindset, but I've also seen how much she struggles when she's just expected to memorize everything like it's some old-fashioned lecture course.

rowdypanther12 said:I'm not talking about failing to explain an assignment; I'm talking about the actual COURSE MATERIAL. 😁
Students should study the material themselves, learn it, and then complete a project (where they get specific guidelines on *how* to build it, like "use six slides with this layout"). Then, they present what they've mastered to the class. 😁

I don't see an issue here either. At most, the teacher just highlights the core concepts and mentions what they intend to cover on the test, and that's that.

rustybison462 said:I don't see an issue here either. At most, the teacher just highlights the core concepts and mentions what they intend to cover on the test, and that's that.

Great. 😂
What's the actual point of having a teacher then? Just to check if a kid memorized some facts? We might as well just switch to all online testing and save money on salaries.

Susan James said:It's actually quite alarming how many adults today struggle to find reliable information or lack the critical thinking skills to filter through what they find. If they did know how, we wouldn't see such a massive rise in conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers (but that's a whole different conversation, though it's the main focus of the book I linked).

What's also troubling is seeing adults demand from their children the exact same thing they themselves struggle with—trying to sift through the endless flood of digital content and noise.

I'm not saying all information should only come from old-school encyclopedias, but I do believe that when kids are researching online, they need expert guidance and adult supervision.
Back in the day, around 2007 🤔, the standard advice was to supervise kids online and keep the family computer in the living room to keep things transparent. Smartphones changed all that. Now, instead of that caution, some experts have started giving much bolder instructions: telling kids to use the internet more frequently and more intensely for educational purposes 🙏
.
Computer science wasn't even part of the standard curriculum back when the current middle schoolers were starting out.
The kids currently in 5th through 8th grade didn't have those classes early on.
The high schoolers today had it as an elective during their middle school years, provided the schools had the staffing and scheduling to offer it.
To be clear, I don't think "internet research" should be its own standalone subject in a computer lab. I'm totally fine with students using computers during regular class time—once they've mastered the core concepts—to dig deeper into a topic under a teacher's watchful eye.
But letting them wander aimlessly through Wikipedia on their own? 🙄🤦
(Honestly, I bet even Banozic used Wikipedia while working on his doctorate 😬, which means kids today might follow a teacher's blunt advice to hunt through digital rabbit holes, essentially modeling the behavior of highly educated professionals who accidentally include flawed data in their dissertations.
)
Before you start throwing pedagogical shade at kids for being "lazy" or "incapable," maybe try teaching them something useful or at least take responsibility for the way you're instructing them.
In my experience, all the effort spent writing guides (and even being extra direct about them) doesn't mean a thing if the assignment isn't age-appropriate or if the material hasn't even been covered in class yet.

Look, it doesn't even matter if they start computer science classes in 5th grade. They’re still going to end up knowing way less than the generations that actually sat through those same classes back in the day.

It’s not my job to teach a kid how to drag an image into a PowerPoint slide, resize a font, or pick out a typeface. That isn't what I'm here for. If the end result isn't happening, then the system itself is broken. Something is fundamentally misaligned.

Look, at the end of the day, I didn't have computer science classes. My teacher couldn't have cared less that I didn't even own a computer at home. I had to teach myself how to actually put a picture into PowerPoint. I sat there for hours and hours in front of a screen until I finally figured out how to use the damn thing. But my parents? They didn't run to the school to complain, and they certainly didn't spend their time whining about it on internet forums.

It’s not really a big deal if a kid just needs to have a finger shifted back into place.
If you ask me, this is a step in the wrong direction. Instead of actually improving our school system, we're just watching it go downhill.

rowdypanther12 said:Great. 😂
What's the actual point of having a teacher then? Just to check if a kid memorized some facts? We might as well just switch to all online testing and save money on salaries.

If a student handles a minor assignment that way once or twice a semester, what's the big deal?

Or look, if we actually cover the material first, then give them a project to expand on what they learned—that's just part of the process.

rowdypanther12 said:Great. 😂
What's the actual point of having a teacher then? Just to check if a kid memorized some facts? We might as well just switch to all online testing and save money on salaries.

Assignments, resources, grading rubrics... did those just manifest out of thin air by divine intervention? Is that same divine power going to review the work, send it back for revisions, and finally hand out the grades?

(by the way—it actually blows my mind how few students take advantage of the chance to send me their work for feedback so I can tell them how to improve their grade—or even just send over a rough draft to make sure they aren't totally off track. But then, without fail, both the kids and the parents will be the first ones complaining when the grade isn't what they wanted. ☕ )

Honestly, all the resources you need are online if you just take the time to hunt them down.
Yeah, the teacher sets the assignment and outlines the criteria, then grades it—that’s just how it works. It’s really all about learning how to delegate.

rowdypanther12 said:I'm not talking about failing to explain an assignment; I'm talking about the actual COURSE MATERIAL. 😁
Students should study the material themselves, learn it, and then complete a project (where they get specific guidelines on *how* to build it, like "use six slides with this layout"). Then, they present what they've mastered to the class. 😁

Well, I suppose that’s exactly what those educational reformers are pushing for.🙂
There isn't any lecture-style teaching in the real world, I guess. Students will eventually just seek out knowledge through sheer curiosity, hopefully discovering things and connecting them to what they already knew, which would then lead to some kind of joyful application in future research or whatever.
The teacher is basically just a moderator, a guide, and someone who grades the final result at the end of the whole process.
hahahahahahahahahahaha

It all went downhill the moment we let students and parents believe they have all the rights and absolutely zero responsibilities.
No politician out there has the backbone to step up and say this isn't working—that school is supposed to be a place of work and learning is a job, and often a damn hard one at that.

I suppose those self-righteous types will probably start telling you that you're being boring now, too.
Whatever.
The truth is just the truth, whether people actually enjoy hearing it or not, I guess.🤷