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School Reform: Thoughts?

Started by Karen Richardson3 · · 👁 15 views · 1.7K replies

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Participants Karen Richardson3rowdypanther12urbantinker8Charles Murphy6wanderinggardener12Arthur Hernandez6brightheron64Terry Cooper69jadetinker85Rachel Jones8David Palmer5Benjamin Wilson4analogseal18silentraven6Jason MorganAngela Wright4Susan Jamesnimblelynx7David Jackson2Chloe Roberts2Jonathan Ortiz2Emily Gonzalez51Brandon Brooks11Susan Nguyen54 …
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#1641 ·
urbantinker8 said:Well, I suppose that’s exactly what those educational reformers are pushing for.🙂
There isn't any lecture-style teaching in the real world, I guess. Students will eventually just seek out knowledge through sheer curiosity, hopefully discovering things and connecting them to what they already knew, which would then lead to some kind of joyful application in future research or whatever.
The teacher is basically just a moderator, a guide, and someone who grades the final result at the end of the whole process.
hahahahahahahahahahaha

Yeah, right. Like kids are just gonna teach themselves chemistry and physics.

In middle school, kids aren't exactly going to discover things they've never even heard of before. High school? Sure, maybe. But in middle school, you have to actually explain things directly. Otherwise, the whole idea of "what are they gonna discover?" is total BS.
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#1642 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:Kids heading into middle school—grades 5 through 8—have already had their fair share of computer classes. For those entering 5th grade, it was an elective they could've picked up as early as 3rd grade, while the kids moving into 8th grade had it as a mandatory part of the curriculum back in 5th and 6th.
And honestly? You can’t just cut kids off from the internet entirely—I mean, let's be real, it's impossible—so the next best move is just trying to teach them how to use it responsibly.
That includes knowing how to actually search for things, too.
What you guys are all debating over on Moonlight right now—Moonlight, pun intended, I know—is basically "project-based learning." It’s this super hyped-up method where the teacher explains the basics first, then hands out a detailed assignment, and the student learns everything else by researching what they need to get the job done. Theory suggests that information retention and making real connections happens most effectively when you learn that way—by working independently on a concrete task.


When kids are assigned research tasks that require them to dive into the online world, it’s actually the perfect "teachable moment" to talk about digital responsibility. Instead of just letting them loose on Google, I like to think of it as teaching them how to be smart investigators rather than just passive readers. One thing I've found helpful is treating them like junior journalists. When they find a piece of information, I ask them, "How do you know this is true?" or "Who wrote this?" It turns a simple search into a bit of a detective game. It helps them understand that not everything they see on a screen is a fact, which is such a vital skill to have these days. I also try to emphasize the importance of citing their sources early on. I remember when my own kids were starting school projects; they used to just copy and paste everything without a second thought. Now, we talk about giving credit where it's due, almost like how an author would credit a researcher. It builds that sense of integrity from a young age. It’s all about guiding them to navigate the web with a bit of skepticism and a lot of curiosity. If we frame it as gaining a superpower—the power to find the truth—they tend to engage with it much more positively! Just hanging out at home. 🤔

Sarah Hall53 said:Kids heading into middle school—grades 5 through 8—have already had their fair share of computer classes. For those entering 5th grade, it was an elective they could've picked up as early as 3rd grade, while the kids moving into 8th grade had it as a mandatory part of the curriculum back in 5th and 6th.
And honestly? You can’t just cut kids off from the internet entirely—I mean, let's be real, it's impossible—so the next best move is just trying to teach them how to use it responsibly.
That includes knowing how to actually search for things, too.
What you guys are all debating over on Moonlight right now—Moonlight, pun intended, I know—is basically "project-based learning." It’s this super hyped-up method where the teacher explains the basics first, then hands out a detailed assignment, and the student learns everything else by researching what they need to get the job done. Theory suggests that information retention and making real connections happens most effectively when you learn that way—by working independently on a concrete task.

I’ve always believed that nothing beats hands-on experience when it comes to actually learning something. You can read all the manuals you want, but you don't truly get it until you roll up your sleeves and dive in. It reminds me of when I first tried to fix a leaky sink in my kitchen; no amount of YouTube tutorials could prepare me for how tricky those pipes actually were! Real-world application is where the magic happens.
But honestly, you can't just jump into that without a ton of groundwork. It takes a lot more preparation than people realize—you have to look at the environment, the specific circumstances, and most importantly, the child's own unique traits. It’s not just about their cognitive skills or what they already know; a huge factor is whether they actually show a genuine interest in the subject they're exploring on their own. If the spark isn't there, all the prep in the world won't make it stick.

I just want to echo a point made in that book about the Swedish education model: in a system like that, the kids who really thrive are the ones who have extra resources waiting for them outside the classroom—usually through their parents. It doesn’t always mean parents are sitting there helping with specific homework assignments (though that's how most people see it). To me, the real secret sauce is the indirect support. It’s the stuff that happens years before they even step foot in kindergarten and continues long after they graduate. I'm talking about things like reading picture books together, weekend trips to the museum, or catching a show at the local theater. That foundation makes all the difference.
If you want a kid to sit still for an hour, totally absorbed in a tablet or a good encyclopedia, someone really has to spark that initial curiosity. It doesn’t just happen by magic. If they didn't have a teacher who was genuinely pumped about the subject matter—or if the teacher was just going through the motions—it's a tough sell. Plus, if the child isn't already naturally curious about that specific topic, getting them to dive into independent research is an uphill battle. I remember when my nephew was little; unless we found a way to make the subject feel like a game, he’d lose interest in five minutes flat. Without that early nudge or a passionate mentor, it’s hard for them to find that joy in exploring things on their own.
I really feel like professors need to be more intuitive. If they see that kids just aren't vibing with a particular topic, they should have the sense to pivot. Instead of forcing a failing research project just to check a box for some academic advisor, why not try a different approach? It’s frustrating when instructors just write off an entire generation as "lazy" or "uninterested" when, in reality, the method itself just isn't working. From what I can see, that seems to be the go-to excuse far too often.
rustybison462 rustybison462 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Aug 2022
#1643 ·
Susan James said:When kids are assigned research tasks that require them to dive into the online world, it’s actually the perfect "teachable moment" to talk about digital responsibility. Instead of just letting them loose on Google, I like to think of it as teaching them how to be smart investigators rather than just passive readers. One thing I've found helpful is treating them like junior journalists. When they find a piece of information, I ask them, "How do you know this is true?" or "Who wrote this?" It turns a simple search into a bit of a detective game. It helps them understand that not everything they see on a screen is a fact, which is such a vital skill to have these days. I also try to emphasize the importance of citing their sources early on. I remember when my own kids were starting school projects; they used to just copy and paste everything without a second thought. Now, we talk about giving credit where it's due, almost like how an author would credit a researcher. It builds that sense of integrity from a young age. It’s all about guiding them to navigate the web with a bit of skepticism and a lot of curiosity. If we frame it as gaining a superpower—the power to find the truth—they tend to engage with it much more positively! Just hanging out at home. 🤔

I’ve always believed that nothing beats hands-on experience when it comes to actually learning something. You can read all the manuals you want, but you don't truly get it until you roll up your sleeves and dive in. It reminds me of when I first tried to fix a leaky sink in my kitchen; no amount of YouTube tutorials could prepare me for how tricky those pipes actually were! Real-world application is where the magic happens.
But honestly, you can't just jump into that without a ton of groundwork. It takes a lot more preparation than people realize—you have to look at the environment, the specific circumstances, and most importantly, the child's own unique traits. It’s not just about their cognitive skills or what they already know; a huge factor is whether they actually show a genuine interest in the subject they're exploring on their own. If the spark isn't there, all the prep in the world won't make it stick.

I just want to echo a point made in that book about the Swedish education model: in a system like that, the kids who really thrive are the ones who have extra resources waiting for them outside the classroom—usually through their parents. It doesn’t always mean parents are sitting there helping with specific homework assignments (though that's how most people see it). To me, the real secret sauce is the indirect support. It’s the stuff that happens years before they even step foot in kindergarten and continues long after they graduate. I'm talking about things like reading picture books together, weekend trips to the museum, or catching a show at the local theater. That foundation makes all the difference.
If you want a kid to sit still for an hour, totally absorbed in a tablet or a good encyclopedia, someone really has to spark that initial curiosity. It doesn’t just happen by magic. If they didn't have a teacher who was genuinely pumped about the subject matter—or if the teacher was just going through the motions—it's a tough sell. Plus, if the child isn't already naturally curious about that specific topic, getting them to dive into independent research is an uphill battle. I remember when my nephew was little; unless we found a way to make the subject feel like a game, he’d lose interest in five minutes flat. Without that early nudge or a passionate mentor, it’s hard for them to find that joy in exploring things on their own.
I really feel like professors need to be more intuitive. If they see that kids just aren't vibing with a particular topic, they should have the sense to pivot. Instead of forcing a failing research project just to check a box for some academic advisor, why not try a different approach? It’s frustrating when instructors just write off an entire generation as "lazy" or "uninterested" when, in reality, the method itself just isn't working. From what I can see, that seems to be the go-to excuse far too often.

Go ahead and tell all that to the guidance counselor or the department head and see how much "support" you get.

Generally, I don't overdo it with those kinds of assignments because I know they don't work the way the higher-ups imagine. I try to simplify them as much as possible so the kids can actually finish them on their own.

Then again, these assignments have to exist because I have a whole grade category dedicated to them, so I need something to grade.

And yeah, kids are lazy. They are. Both kids and parents want good grades without putting in the sweat equity; they really do. Of course, there are exceptions. If you don't like hearing that, that's not my problem.

I haven't yet encountered a student who put in the effort, asked questions, submitted their work early for feedback, and followed instructions, only to end up with less than an A. But those aren't the students who sit around waiting for everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. Those are the ones who try to figure it out themselves first and only ask questions when they're truly stuck. Those are the kids with actual study habits who understand that good grades require work, effort, and knowledge. Their parents know it too.

People need to realize that grades from 1 to 5 exist for a reason, and not everyone needs to pull an A. Not everyone is built for everything.
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#1644 ·
Sorry, do you realize that neither I nor monstera are actually talking about grades?
We couldn't care less about grades.
Our focus is on the quality of this learning method, which looks great on paper but is a disaster in practice—or at best, entirely dependent on the level of support and resources a kid has available to them.
rustybison462 rustybison462 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Aug 2022
#1645 ·
rowdypanther12 said:Sorry, do you realize that neither I nor monstera are actually talking about grades?
We couldn't care less about grades.
Our focus is on the quality of this learning method, which looks great on paper but is a disaster in practice—or at best, entirely dependent on the level of support and resources a kid has available to them.

Fine, I get that, but reading through the previous pages, it feels like everyone's just blaming the teachers, even though they aren't the ones who implemented the reform.
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#1646 ·
rustybison462 said:Fine, I get that, but reading through the previous pages, it feels like everyone's just blaming the teachers, even though they aren't the ones who implemented the reform.

Not exactly, but they do implement it poorly. Some teachers do their jobs right, while others just don't.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1647 ·
rowdypanther12 said:Sorry, do you realize that neither I nor monstera are actually talking about grades?
We couldn't care less about grades.
Our focus is on the quality of this learning method, which looks great on paper but is a disaster in practice—or at best, entirely dependent on the level of support and resources a kid has available to them.

Look, just write to the school board. They’re the ones parents will actually listen to anyway.🤣
The truth is, this way of teaching isn't even "great" in theory; it’s actually pretty far from it, I suppose.
for this kind of project-based approach to actually work effectively, you'd need a perfect storm of conditions: an incredibly driven and self-motivated student, someone who already has a solid grasp of the fundamentals before they even start the task, a kid capable of drawing their own conclusions, someone who actually wants to connect different subjects together, equal access to tools and tech for everyone, a teacher who knows how to guide without overstepping, and—this might be the big one—parents who stay completely out of the process while the kid works.
since most of those things are basically non-existent in our public school system, I guess you end up with nothing much useful for the real world.😳
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#1648 ·
So, I think we're on the same page here 😁
Maybe I should start a petition to abolish this whole "school of life" thing 🤔
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1649 ·
Sure thing. I suppose we’ll all be right there behind you, giving you our full support.
mellowskipper mellowskipper Regular
704 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1650 ·
Honestly, life skills classes are a joke. Though, if you think about it—and I guess I am—you could probably just send those eighth graders straight to work at ExxonMobil. They’d probably be efficient enough to run the place in no time.
Rank the national parks by acreage or maybe the nature preserves by the year they were established.
I mean, how is anyone supposed to survive without that specific information? Real "life skills" right there...
Michelle Nelson4 Michelle Nelson4 Regular
544 messages
joined Jan 2024
#1651 ·
That’s hardly a life lesson.
Instead, what I see over the last few pages here is everyone insisting there isn't enough of it—claiming that if you don't have these facts memorized, you won't be able to think critically in the real world.

Sure, a fact is a fact. The year a company was founded is a fact. But honestly, if you don't happen to know that off the top of your head, it's not like you're going to be unable to just look it up on Google 😂
mellowskipper mellowskipper Regular
704 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1652 ·
Michelle Nelson4 said:That’s hardly a life lesson.
Instead, what I see over the last few pages here is everyone insisting there isn't enough of it—claiming that if you don't have these facts memorized, you won't be able to think critically in the real world.

Sure, a fact is a fact. The year a company was founded is a fact. But honestly, if you don't happen to know that off the top of your head, it's not like you're going to be unable to just look it up on Google 😂

They teach it, and they’re expected to know it. And that was just one example from geography.
There is just so much fluff, and then everyone acts surprised when kids immediately purge all that info from their brains the second the test is over. It's just more and more useless trivia.
That's one side of it.
On the other hand, they get assigned a project to research and present, say, Hydraulics. (that was my topic.) And then they're faced with a choice: a) memorize a few slides and recite them like a parrot without actually understanding a word, or b) have a parent step in to explain what Hydraulics actually is—maybe even doing a little demonstration so they truly grasp the concept.
And apparently, all of that is considered "school for life"...
Michelle Nelson4 Michelle Nelson4 Regular
544 messages
joined Jan 2024
#1653 ·
Hydraulics in 7th grade? Honestly, I went through my entire high school physics textbook and didn't see a single mention of that.

In my experience, they had a few different physics projects. None of them were just making some PowerPoint presentation; instead, they’d pick a specific topic from the curriculum and design an actual experiment to test it out and present their findings. That first one was a bit of a hurdle—she actually got it sent back for revisions—but once she cleared that hump, they were pretty much working independently.

What I mean is, that initial project was quite the jump... definitely a "level up" from the year before and fairly massive in scope. But it turned out they could handle it; after that first shock to the system, the learning curve really started to steepen. 😁
mellowskipper mellowskipper Regular
704 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1654 ·
Michelle Nelson4 said:Hydraulics in 7th grade? Honestly, I went through my entire high school physics textbook and didn't see a single mention of that.

In my experience, they had a few different physics projects. None of them were just making some PowerPoint presentation; instead, they’d pick a specific topic from the curriculum and design an actual experiment to test it out and present their findings. That first one was a bit of a hurdle—she actually got it sent back for revisions—but once she cleared that hump, they were pretty much working independently.

What I mean is, that initial project was quite the jump... definitely a "level up" from the year before and fairly massive in scope. But it turned out they could handle it; after that first shock to the system, the learning curve really started to steepen. 😁

It isn't in the textbook. They probably had to hunt for it in the dark corners of the internet. If I recall correctly, it might have been tied to the chapter on Force. And honestly, she's a bit too fond of abstract concepts...
Well, I don't remember us covering that in high school physics.
They did experiments, which was fine. She finds physics okay—even interesting, at times. It's more chemistry that she struggled with. Though, I assume chemistry in 8th grade will be easier since they've already tackled the hardest parts. At least, that's what I'm hoping.
Michelle Nelson4 Michelle Nelson4 Regular
544 messages
joined Jan 2024
#1655 ·
But honestly, this latest curriculum overhaul has definitely trimmed down some of those endless, mind-numbing lists of facts that textbooks used to cram into your head just for you to forget them by next Tuesday.

I remember back in the day—it feels like an absolute eternity ago—when my daughter would hunt for geography quizzes online to test herself. She’d get all worked up because she couldn't find a specific answer in her textbook, only for us to realize that information was actually part of the old curriculum. Looking at the publication dates, we realized she was actually quite lucky that some of that outdated clutter had been cleared out already.🙏
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#1656 ·
mellowskipper said:It isn't in the textbook. They probably had to hunt for it in the dark corners of the internet. If I recall correctly, it might have been tied to the chapter on Force. And honestly, she's a bit too fond of abstract concepts...
Well, I don't remember us covering that in high school physics.
They did experiments, which was fine. She finds physics okay—even interesting, at times. It's more chemistry that she struggled with. Though, I assume chemistry in 8th grade will be easier since they've already tackled the hardest parts. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

It’s definitely not easier. There's a ton of fluff, and organic chem is basically stripped down to nothing.

Salts are easily the hardest part of 8th grade.
mellowskipper mellowskipper Regular
704 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1657 ·
Michelle Nelson4 said:But honestly, this latest curriculum overhaul has definitely trimmed down some of those endless, mind-numbing lists of facts that textbooks used to cram into your head just for you to forget them by next Tuesday.

I remember back in the day—it feels like an absolute eternity ago—when my daughter would hunt for geography quizzes online to test herself. She’d get all worked up because she couldn't find a specific answer in her textbook, only for us to realize that information was actually part of the old curriculum. Looking at the publication dates, we realized she was actually quite lucky that some of that outdated clutter had been cleared out already.🙏

Yeah, everyone seems to say that—people who have kids just a year or two older than mine, anyway. I guess if my kid's history textbook were twice as thick as it is now, I might actually have something to complain about—but maybe it’s better if I just don't start grumbling.
Larry Walker24 said:It’s definitely not easier. There's a ton of fluff, and organic chem is basically stripped down to nothing.

Salts are easily the hardest part of 8th grade.

And let’s not even get started on the salt. There are like, a hundred different ways to extract it—not to mention all the various chemical names and its melting point... that could honestly turn into a real headache. We’ll pull through—I suppose.
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#1658 ·
mellowskipper said:Yeah, everyone seems to say that—people who have kids just a year or two older than mine, anyway. I guess if my kid's history textbook were twice as thick as it is now, I might actually have something to complain about—but maybe it’s better if I just don't start grumbling.

And let’s not even get started on the salt. There are like, a hundred different ways to extract it—not to mention all the various chemical names and its melting point... that could honestly turn into a real headache. We’ll pull through—I suppose.

Yeah,

we gotta kick things off with ions, like why sodium is monovalent while calcium is divalent. Basically, we need to brush up on valence stuff again.
steelwalker13 steelwalker13 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Feb 2020
#1659 ·
mellowskipper said:Yeah, everyone seems to say that—people who have kids just a year or two older than mine, anyway. I guess if my kid's history textbook were twice as thick as it is now, I might actually have something to complain about—but maybe it’s better if I just don't start grumbling.

And let’s not even get started on the salt. There are like, a hundred different ways to extract it—not to mention all the various chemical names and its melting point... that could honestly turn into a real headache. We’ll pull through—I suppose.

Oh, absolutely. Both history and English.
Though, quite a bit of the 7th-grade English material has been pushed into the 8th-grade curriculum now.

As for history, don't even get me started. Just thinking about my old 5th-grade textbook is enough.
Or the history books I had to use when I first started working at tutoring centers.
rowdypanther12 rowdypanther12 Regular
894 messages
joined Jul 2012
#1660 ·
So, how did the classes start under the new curriculum?
Is everyone following it now?

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