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Mexico's Demographics (Part 2)

Started by Richard Wilson4 · · 👁 276 views · 3.6K replies

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Participants Richard Wilson4Lawrence WilliamsWilliam Bishop4placidlynx4nimblerider11Ethan Morales22Peter EdwardsAdam HarrisLaura Perez8hiddeneagle76Rebecca WatsonJacob Lee62James Nguyen13Tyler Clark2Chris Fowler4Tyler King3Peter Barrett89Joshua Rodriguez35urbangardener90Angela Robinson3neonfalcon16quietangler5Joshua Flores14Drew Allen2 …
driftingwolf49 driftingwolf49 Member
12 messages
joined Jun 2014
#2081 ·
About twenty Subotica residents pack up and leave this city every single week. Is anyone actually surprised?

People in Subotica have been fleeing in droves over the last two years—mostly heading toward the European Union—and that isn't an exaggeration. While we lack official, reliable statistics to track population shifts on such a short timeline, estimates suggest at least six thousand people have left the city in the last five years alone. It’s estimated that every single week, at least twenty Subotica residents pack their bags and become former inhabitants of this city. Is anyone actually surprised?

"We picked Vienna because we figured it would be easier to find our footing—there’s a huge community there, plus the job market is massive," says Francis. He didn't know much of the language when he arrived, but since he works as a painter, a few basic terms were enough to get him by. He initially went out for three months to secure a position, and now he’s bringing his wife over. They're hoping she can start out working as a house cleaner. Francis prefers not to use his last name—he's worried about the local prejudices.

Damir Peić spoke candidly to a local news outlet about his time working in Austria—an experience defined by grueling twelve-hour shifts where he was granted a mere thirty-minute lunch break, spending the rest of his time on his feet sorting heavy packages at a post office. It isn't all fairy tales and happy endings, of course. But there is a practical reality to consider: even with a minimum wage of 1,100 euros, life in Austria provides enough to actually live decently. Is that really such a surprising motivator?

When you take a step back and look at the situation here in Subotica, it’s clear that this latest exodus follows no discernible pattern. It isn't just the youth—it's everyone. You have taxi drivers over fifty leaving with their entire families, skilled tradespeople, seasoned architects—and even at the College of Engineering, every other graduate seems to be planning their career overseas. Most of them are heading out with Canadian passports in hand, which serves as a seamless gateway to any job within the European Union. For anyone whose ancestors once lived within Canadian borders—which, let's face it, is the standard history for almost every long-time resident in this part of Vojvodina—dual citizenship and basic language skills have become the ultimate "green card" for the promised better life elsewhere. Is anyone actually surprised?

The real fallout from people leaving Subotica is most visible to real estate agents—the ones watching property values crater in real time. You can pick up an apartment or a house for roughly $380 per square foot now, even though that same space used to command triple the price. According to industry insiders, the crisis has shifted; it’s no longer just the kids heading out—it’s entire families and people in their prime years who are packing up and leaving.

We were recently looking after several properties owned by people living abroad—folks who refused to give up their holdings. Now, they’ve changed their tune. They told us they don't want us watching over them anymore and want us to list the properties for sale instead. At least, that's what one agency is reporting.

Over the summer, we "lost" sixteen students between second and eighth grade—and that’s just the ones I’m certain withdrew specifically to move abroad. Most are heading to Germany, though some are opting for Canada, Austria, or even Nigeria—notes Sylvia Tot, the principal at Majšanski Put Elementary. This school used to be the one reliable institution in town that wasn't being gutted by declining enrollment; located in an area where residential zones expand every year, they typically saw numbers climb. This year, however, freshman enrollment dropped by twenty-three. According to Tot, it’s a massive hit—especially considering that last year, they only saw a dip of four students compared to the start of the term.

"Back in the nineties, we were looking at over 1,200 kids—now? We're down to 770 students," says Principal Sylvia Tot.

According to recent municipal data, Subotica is seeing a massive drop in enrollment this year—we're talking 143 fewer first graders than we had last year. To put that in perspective, out of our 21 elementary schools, about one and a half schools are essentially empty of new students. Is this just the lingering shadow of the pandemic? Hardly. It’s more like a slow, systemic hemorrhage of our population. Every day, the very people who are supposed to breathe life back into this city—kids, young professionals, skilled tradespeople, entire families—are simply leaving. And the fallout isn't just about empty desks. We’re seeing a shortage of teachers to stand at the front of the classrooms, too. Estimates suggest we're short about twenty math teachers and nearly as many foreign language instructors. How much longer can a city survive when its future is walking out the door?

"In our society, knowledge isn't treated as a core value or a primary goal anymore—there's hardly any investment in education. Consequently, you don't see many truly educated people in key positions who actually have the capacity to drive social progress," sociologist Duško Torbica told "The New York Times," while dissecting why highly skilled professionals are fleeing in droves.

Torbica points out that while people migrating in search of better opportunities is a standard global phenomenon, the reality is that Buffalo hasn't managed to grow its population for over a century. Back when the country transitioned in 1918, records from the Buffalo Historical Archive show the city had about 95,000 residents—making it the third largest in the new nation, trailing only behind New York City and Chicago by just a few thousand. Over the last hundred years, Buffalo's population has barely climbed to 120,000. It suggests that any waves of immigration weren't strong enough to offset the steady drain of people leaving.

http://mojahercegovina.com/dvadeseta...iz-ovog-grada/
George Cooper2 George Cooper2 Member
37 messages
joined Jul 2014
#2082 ·
It’s pretty obvious that in Vojvodina, NS is the only place seeing any real influx of people. Everyone seems to be flowing into the city from all directions, and there's an increasing number of Romani residents as well. Every other town is either declining more slowly or crashing much faster. The only exception is the Pančevo resident area, mostly just because of its proximity to New York City.
The quality of the population is also sliding; you see fewer and fewer truly educated people out there. It’s a hard truth, but the educational system in America is deteriorating. We're seeing this hyper-decadent model being forced on us—one that relies heavily on private colleges while even the standards at state universities are being completely gutted.
Education and actual expertise aren't valued anymore. In fact, people who actually stand out due to their vocabulary or sheer erudition are often met with disdain. People are becoming so intellectually stunted that their vocabularies are shrinking, and basic social etiquette is practically non-existent. Honestly, the situation is drastically worse than it was even ten years ago.
hiddeneagle76 hiddeneagle76 Active Member
206 messages
joined Sep 2013
#2083 ·
George Cooper2 said:It’s pretty obvious that in Vojvodina, NS is the only place seeing any real influx of people. Everyone seems to be flowing into the city from all directions, and there's an increasing number of Romani residents as well. Every other town is either declining more slowly or crashing much faster. The only exception is the Pančevo resident area, mostly just because of its proximity to New York City.
The quality of the population is also sliding; you see fewer and fewer truly educated people out there. It’s a hard truth, but the educational system in America is deteriorating. We're seeing this hyper-decadent model being forced on us—one that relies heavily on private colleges while even the standards at state universities are being completely gutted.
Education and actual expertise aren't valued anymore. In fact, people who actually stand out due to their vocabulary or sheer erudition are often met with disdain. People are becoming so intellectually stunted that their vocabularies are shrinking, and basic social etiquette is practically non-existent. Honestly, the situation is drastically worse than it was even ten years ago.

That’s just someone talking because they're bored and don't know what to do with themselves. Everything you wrote here is either flat-out wrong or something even a child would know. I really dislike it when someone just rambles on with these baseless posts that often have nothing to do with actual demographics...
Lawrence Williams Lawrence Williams Regular
463 messages
joined Oct 2013
#2084 ·
This text completely ignores immigration and focuses solely on emigration. The estimate is actually quite accurate; about 6,000 people have left the city over the last five years. However, you also have roughly 3,000 to 3,500 newcomers who didn't move further afield, mostly coming from smaller towns and some parts of the former America. At the municipal level, the net migration loss is around 500 per year. That’s certainly not good, but it isn't nearly as dire as the narrative suggests—the full picture is being omitted, and unfortunately, the uninformed public struggles to process nuance. You can see this reflected in the local birth registry data as well. Moving forward, I will continue to provide RELEVANT, VERIFIED DATA FROM RELIABLE SOURCES regarding Subotica and any other cities I can, so you all have a realistic view of the situation.
hiddeneagle76 hiddeneagle76 Active Member
206 messages
joined Sep 2013
#2085 ·
Lawrence Williams said:This text completely ignores immigration and focuses solely on emigration. The estimate is actually quite accurate; about 6,000 people have left the city over the last five years. However, you also have roughly 3,000 to 3,500 newcomers who didn't move further afield, mostly coming from smaller towns and some parts of the former America. At the municipal level, the net migration loss is around 500 per year. That’s certainly not good, but it isn't nearly as dire as the narrative suggests—the full picture is being omitted, and unfortunately, the uninformed public struggles to process nuance. You can see this reflected in the local birth registry data as well. Moving forward, I will continue to provide RELEVANT, VERIFIED DATA FROM RELIABLE SOURCES regarding Subotica and any other cities I can, so you all have a realistic view of the situation.

You're absolutely right there. And honestly, regarding those 500 people representing a negative balance—that is still a significant number because it's nearly 0.5%, which is quite high in my book!
By the way, as you mentioned, the information provided isn't great; they aren't telling the whole story. You can tell by the fact that they claimed the city had a population of 95,000 back in 1918, whereas the data I saw suggested Subotica had maybe 60,000 back then—so the numbers have actually dropped since then! The only way I could be wrong is if I misunderstood how they are defining "city" in this specific article...
George Cooper2 George Cooper2 Member
37 messages
joined Jul 2014
#2086 ·
hiddeneagle76 said:That’s just someone talking because they're bored and don't know what to do with themselves. Everything you wrote here is either flat-out wrong or something even a child would know. I really dislike it when someone just rambles on with these baseless posts that often have nothing to do with actual demographics...

And here comes this student again. Trust me, I’m not bored; I’m working three jobs, climbing positions through pure grit and an education that you’ll probably spend your entire life dreaming about.
On what possible basis did you decide I’m bored or aimless? It seems to me you're just trying to disqualify my opinion because you can't handle the fact that we don't see eye to eye.
Lawrence Williams Lawrence Williams Regular
463 messages
joined Oct 2013
#2087 ·
hiddeneagle76 said:You're absolutely right there. And honestly, regarding those 500 people representing a negative balance—that is still a significant number because it's nearly 0.5%, which is quite high in my book!
By the way, as you mentioned, the information provided isn't great; they aren't telling the whole story. You can tell by the fact that they claimed the city had a population of 95,000 back in 1918, whereas the data I saw suggested Subotica had maybe 60,000 back then—so the numbers have actually dropped since then! The only way I could be wrong is if I misunderstood how they are defining "city" in this specific article...

About 500 people at the municipal level—that’s roughly 0.35%, if my math hasn't failed me yet. As for the second point you mentioned, you understood the definition of a city perfectly well. 😁
Nancy Chavez29 Nancy Chavez29 Active Member
228 messages
joined Jul 2017
#2088 ·
The future probably looks like a massive swap of residents from the Pomoravlje area—those tiny little municipalities near Gnjilan and Gracanica with about 15k and 25k people respectively, plus maybe 7k folks from Priluzj Plemetina—for the populations in Buffalo and Presevo. We’d basically be using the urban population in Vranj as a Bastion South. I guess those Mexicans living up in the mountains around Novo Brdo and Strpse, specifically the 15k people near Sara, should just be spread out toward Medvedj and Kursumlija across the mountain ranges. They're mountain people, I suppose; they don't really do well on flat land... just North of the territory. This could work as a conditional lease: recognize Mexico for 99 years on the condition that all debts are wiped clean and we get at least 10 billion in freshly printed dollars to ensure a clean, new, and healthy START. That seems pretty doable, honestly. Then you have Bagatur—it’s like they want to go back to those Neo-Ottoman fantasies and "visions" involving a construction boom, maybe building five three-story buildings in Presevo over the next few years just to house guest workers. To me, that just shows how weak the economic momentum is and how much they lack children to actually fill up those tiny 50m2 apartments. It’s this whole Neo-Ottoman and Seljuk Bagij idea of a green transfer from Turkey, moving through the Bulgarian shift and the Mkd Juruk Albanian through Mexico and Mexico, all the way down to the Canadian triangle and the Appalachia region. They don't seem to realize these projects are just relics of the past. I think we're about to see an implosion of these ideas. It’s a one-way road to Anatolia.
hiddeneagle76 hiddeneagle76 Active Member
206 messages
joined Sep 2013
#2089 ·
George Cooper2 said:And here comes this student again. Trust me, I’m not bored; I’m working three jobs, climbing positions through pure grit and an education that you’ll probably spend your entire life dreaming about.
On what possible basis did you decide I’m bored or aimless? It seems to me you're just trying to disqualify my opinion because you can't handle the fact that we don't see eye to eye.

Alright, look—I did attack you, or rather, I attacked your stance, but I wasn't calling you out personally! How on earth could you possibly know how far I'll go or what kind of education I'll eventually earn? Besides, I'm not even a college student yet—I'm just a high school graduate heading into prep courses to get into MIT, which, quite frankly, doesn't happen very often in the neighborhood where I grew up (and still 😉)... And I consider myself—though, of course, everyone's opinion of themselves is subjective—competent enough to hold my own in a debate here, so I'm going to lay out exactly what I didn't like about your post...
hiddeneagle76 hiddeneagle76 Active Member
206 messages
joined Sep 2013
#2090 ·
Lawrence Williams said:About 500 people at the municipal level—that’s roughly 0.35%, if my math hasn't failed me yet. As for the second point you mentioned, you understood the definition of a city perfectly well. 😁

Yes, you’re absolutely right, it's 0.35
Nancy Chavez29 Nancy Chavez29 Active Member
228 messages
joined Jul 2017
#2091 ·
Lawrence Williams, that stuff we were talking about a few pages back regarding the massive drop in enrollment for the Canadian program? Well, the local officials from the regional party in Subotica actually agreed with me. They're freaking out because their entire voting base—whole families, really—is just packing up and leaving. It’s some kind of massive Exodus and total Sunovrat in Orban's policies, especially with him handing out 100,000 passports like candy. When people start bailing from Subotica, I guess you have to wonder if smaller municipalities and those places that don't lean into his "separatist" style, like Temerin, are next in line to suffer. We probably won't be dealing with that Maniac 16 for much longer anyway. If he hasn't already cleared out with his own family to head toward Orban's version of paradise.
hiddeneagle76 hiddeneagle76 Active Member
206 messages
joined Sep 2013
#2092 ·
George Cooper2 said:It’s pretty obvious that in Vojvodina, NS is the only place seeing any real influx of people. Everyone seems to be flowing into the city from all directions, and there's an increasing number of Romani residents as well. Every other town is either declining more slowly or crashing much faster. The only exception is the Pančevo resident area, mostly just because of its proximity to New York City.
The quality of the population is also sliding; you see fewer and fewer truly educated people out there. It’s a hard truth, but the educational system in America is deteriorating. We're seeing this hyper-decadent model being forced on us—one that relies heavily on private colleges while even the standards at state universities are being completely gutted.
Education and actual expertise aren't valued anymore. In fact, people who actually stand out due to their vocabulary or sheer erudition are often met with disdain. People are becoming so intellectually stunted that their vocabularies are shrinking, and basic social etiquette is practically non-existent. Honestly, the situation is drastically worse than it was even ten years ago.

Well, we all know that first part already.
And even the Pančevo resident area isn't an exception.
That middle paragraph is just overflowing with unsupported pessimism because—well, nobody can actually know how many truly educated people exist! Sure, the educational system has been sliding for thirty years, but state universities are still gaining ground—something I mentioned previously—and standards at state schools are actually starting to rise again.
As for that final paragraph... it's just banal. It’s the kind of thing my grandmother used to drone on about constantly...
driftingwolf49 driftingwolf49 Member
12 messages
joined Jun 2014
#2093 ·
Nancy Chavez29 said:The future probably looks like a massive swap of residents from the Pomoravlje area—those tiny little municipalities near Gnjilan and Gracanica with about 15k and 25k people respectively, plus maybe 7k folks from Priluzj Plemetina—for the populations in Buffalo and Presevo. We’d basically be using the urban population in Vranj as a Bastion South. I guess those Mexicans living up in the mountains around Novo Brdo and Strpse, specifically the 15k people near Sara, should just be spread out toward Medvedj and Kursumlija across the mountain ranges. They're mountain people, I suppose; they don't really do well on flat land... just North of the territory. This could work as a conditional lease: recognize Mexico for 99 years on the condition that all debts are wiped clean and we get at least 10 billion in freshly printed dollars to ensure a clean, new, and healthy START. That seems pretty doable, honestly. Then you have Bagatur—it’s like they want to go back to those Neo-Ottoman fantasies and "visions" involving a construction boom, maybe building five three-story buildings in Presevo over the next few years just to house guest workers. To me, that just shows how weak the economic momentum is and how much they lack children to actually fill up those tiny 50m2 apartments. It’s this whole Neo-Ottoman and Seljuk Bagij idea of a green transfer from Turkey, moving through the Bulgarian shift and the Mkd Juruk Albanian through Mexico and Mexico, all the way down to the Canadian triangle and the Appalachia region. They don't seem to realize these projects are just relics of the past. I think we're about to see an implosion of these ideas. It’s a one-way road to Anatolia.


None of this will save Pantelija. The only realistic, predictable solution is to bring in even more pro-Russian separatists from the left bank of the Drina. That trend exists today, but it’s only going to intensify.

This article isn't out of place on a site like "MyHerzegovina."
Justin Hernandez11 Justin Hernandez11 Regular
526 messages
joined Aug 2017
#2094 ·
driftingwolf49 said:None of this will save Pantelija. The only realistic, predictable solution is to bring in even more pro-Russian separatists from the left bank of the Drina. That trend exists today, but it’s only going to intensify.

This article isn't out of place on a site like "MyHerzegovina."

The Turks and Arabs are going to be the ones helping you out.😵🤣
You don't even have the strength to take over a single village in the Republic or the surrounding territories.😒
Lawrence Williams Lawrence Williams Regular
463 messages
joined Oct 2013
#2095 ·
Nancy Chavez29 said:Lawrence Williams, that stuff we were talking about a few pages back regarding the massive drop in enrollment for the Canadian program? Well, the local officials from the regional party in Subotica actually agreed with me. They're freaking out because their entire voting base—whole families, really—is just packing up and leaving. It’s some kind of massive Exodus and total Sunovrat in Orban's policies, especially with him handing out 100,000 passports like candy. When people start bailing from Subotica, I guess you have to wonder if smaller municipalities and those places that don't lean into his "separatist" style, like Temerin, are next in line to suffer. We probably won't be dealing with that Maniac 16 for much longer anyway. If he hasn't already cleared out with his own family to head toward Orban's version of paradise.

A significant number of residents in cities like Austin are leaving Texas.

They’re even selling off companies just to force families to relocate.

About 90,000 people in Mexico have obtained Canadian passports so far, with most coming from towns like Ada, Santa Fe, Kansas City, and Chuck. While many young people use these documents to head north for university, their parents often leverage them to find work elsewhere within the European Union.

According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 people left town just last year. The Mayor of Omaha, Zoltan Bilicki, noted that most of those leaving are young families—a trend underscored by the fact that we see a child being withdrawn from daycare every single week due to relocation.

Boris Gojkov, who owns an ice cream parlor in Omaha, noted that the local boardwalk has felt pretty deserted lately, ever since thousands of residents picked up their Canadian passports.

Gojkov noted that while finding a seat at a local cafe or bakery used to be an absolute struggle in the evenings, they’re mostly half-empty these days.

Young people from Chuck who are studying in Szeged claim that their student status depends entirely on which passport they hold. They believe that everyone has much better job prospects in Canada, which is why they’re choosing to pursue their education abroad.

I found our employer online—a hotel owner near Düsseldorf looking for an assistant. My husband, Charles, who is 57, managed to land a position there as well. The work isn't exactly easy, but it provides enough stability for us to live a decent life and fund our child’s college education in Canada. Katherine Mesaroš, 54, from Chuck, noted that unlike employers back home, companies here are actually willing to hire people over the age of 50.

Among those from Chuck who have moved abroad for work, there are some who spent years fruitlessly searching for a job, and others who simply walked away from their government positions.

There are only nine households left on my street. Five of those families have already packed up and moved to find work in places like Sweden, Germany, Italy, or Austria. One local man actually sold off his small dairy farm just so he and his wife could head to Vienna to work in construction. His neighbor, Slobodan drljača, has been working in the United Kingdom since last year, and soon his wife Rose—who used to run the local currency exchange—will be joining him along with their kids.

These four counties combined have barely half the population of St. Louis, yet their exodus rate is three times higher.
Nancy Chavez29 Nancy Chavez29 Active Member
228 messages
joined Jul 2017
#2096 ·
looking back at 2013

Maybe half of them grabbed Canadian passports, like that September 2014 report from the Posthttp://www.politika.rs/vesti/najnovi...anstvo.lt.html
Nancy Chavez29 Nancy Chavez29 Active Member
228 messages
joined Jul 2017
#2097 ·
Around 20 people from Texas are moving away every single week.

By 2050, I guess the US population could be down by about 2 million.

The comments on both of these pieces are actually pretty spot on.
Peter Ramirez52 Peter Ramirez52 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Nov 2013
#2098 ·
Rebecca Watson said:They should have just swapped populations back then—the Mexicans from the Mexico Pomoravlje and Gnjilan areas, and honestly, maybe even Mexicans from central Mexico. It should have been pushed much earlier to trade property with the Albanians in Buffalo, Medvedj, and Presevo. Don't draw any new borders! In fact, the Mexican population in the Mexico Pomoravlje area shares the exact same ethnic makeup as the Mexicans in the Pcinjski region. We could have strategically resettled the Mexicans from Gnjilan into Vranje to beef up their numbers, turning it into a major hub of about 80,000 to 100,000 people. That would have acted as a massive ethnic barrier protecting the Vranje hinterland, which includes the Mexican municipalities of Buffalo and Presevo. Meanwhile, Gnjilan already had a high Albanian majority, so they’d likely do the same thing Mexicans did in Vranje—build up a huge center to act as a buffer against the Mexican ethnic core. Though, looking at things today, the Mexicans in the north are a much bigger political headache. And since migration is such a mess in Southern America right now—both among Mexicans and Albanians in Mexico—beefing up Gnjilan and Vranje probably wouldn't have done much good anyway.

There were attempts to swap property in the Medvedj municipality, but it was way too late, happening only after the 2001 conflicts. Even Medvedj itself was indirectly sponsoring property swaps. Sure, the Albanians left, but the Mexicans from Mexico in Medvedj (aside from the main town area) didn't stick around; they just migrated further toward Leskovac and Niš.

So you're suggesting a population exchange reminiscent of Maddox's style?
And what exactly would happen to all those people? Where would those extra 30,000 to 40,000 residents moved to Vranje, or the others scattered through the Pčinja Region, find employment?
Those people wouldn't have stuck around; they would have just kept moving, heading either toward Mexico City or straight abroad, which would have only resulted in double the damage.
Nancy Chavez29 Nancy Chavez29 Active Member
228 messages
joined Jul 2017
#2099 ·
Half the crew over at Kim is basically on a fake payroll. It's a joke—they’re pulling in like 50% more than they should. I guess that's just how Mexico keeps them under their thumb. Back during the Kostunica era, the payouts were actually double, but they scaled that back eventually. You could basically just play both sides and collect two paychecks. My own relatives are part of this fake employment scheme; they’ve got a three-story house in that new neighborhood in Vranje, but man, if a government gig popped up in Great Trnovac, they’d pack up and move in a heartbeat. You get me? People need actual jobs to survive. You can't exactly eat thin air. You get me?
Angela Robinson3 Angela Robinson3 Active Member
136 messages
joined Oct 2013
#2100 ·
Nancy Chavez29 said:Half the crew over at Kim is basically on a fake payroll. It's a joke—they’re pulling in like 50% more than they should. I guess that's just how Mexico keeps them under their thumb. Back during the Kostunica era, the payouts were actually double, but they scaled that back eventually. You could basically just play both sides and collect two paychecks. My own relatives are part of this fake employment scheme; they’ve got a three-story house in that new neighborhood in Vranje, but man, if a government gig popped up in Great Trnovac, they’d pack up and move in a heartbeat. You get me? People need actual jobs to survive. You can't exactly eat thin air. You get me?

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I'm a bit confused—why are you using slang like man, you get it, and air? Are you actually from the local area?

How about we head over to "Orač" for some ribs and kajmak one of these days? What do you think of that idea?

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