Induced spiritual experiences

Elizabeth Castillo87 said:Do you really think, Sandra Morgan2, that people can just forget experiences like that?

That fear you're talking about? Personally, I think it's a beautiful built-in safety switch. It's actually good that it exists. It drags us back to where we belong for now—to the reality of paying the mortgage, raising kids, keeping the house running, and making sure there's a hot meal on the table tonight. If you just slip over to some parallel reality and get lost in it, you end up looking like a total nutcase in this one. You get swept away by experiences that don't serve any practical purpose, and before you know it, you're either a burden on someone else or checking into a psych ward.

So, in this context, fear actually serves a purpose: it keeps us grounded.

Sure, maybe fear works as a defense mechanism as long as we're using it to push experiences away—using it as the ultimate block. But once you've actually lived through it? That block is gone. At that point, it can lead you straight into an illusion of monsters and pure evil. That's why, in the Abrahamic traditions where they have these super clear-cut archetypes of good versus evil, you see all these mystics—people who clearly had an awakening—preaching wildly about hellfire and divine wrath. The most obvious example is St. Paul in the Christian tradition, who basically steered the entire course of Christianity.
Bottom line: I don't think fear is a good friend. Caution, maybe. I remember this one Zen master—can't for the life of me remember his name, shoot—who said something that stuck with me:
"Before enlightenment, mountains were mountains and hills were hills. After enlightenment, mountains are still mountains and hills are still hills."

I don't get this... 😕

Let me be clear: SOME fears are a blessing. Like when you feel that icy chill hit you because you see your kid leaning too far out a window and they might fall. That fear triggers an adrenaline surge from your adrenal glands, and suddenly you're moving like a panther, lunging toward that window to grab them in a split second.

Besides, why should we have to push through every single terrifying experience just to overcome it? Maybe, like I mentioned in my previous post, for certain "mystical" encounters, fear serves a legitimate purpose as a defense mechanism.

Take a woman I know—she had one isolated psychotic break where she completely lost it. She was talking nonsense, screaming, neglecting her hygiene, even trying to fight people close to her. She claimed she met Jesus and realized she was His wife.

Once things calmed down through therapy and medication, she actually became terrified of meditation (TM), which she used to do regularly before the episode. And honestly? She has reason to be afraid. For someone who is mentally fragile—someone with a genetic predisposition or a family history of psychosis and personality disorders—meditation can trigger depersonalization, derealization, or dissociative disorders, and therefore trigger a psychotic episode.

That’s why in Abrahamic traditions, where there are clearly defined archetypes of good and evil, you often see mystics—people whose records suggest they likely achieved enlightenment—who then go on to preach about hellish torments and divine judgment. The most obvious example is Saint Paul in the Christian tradition, who fundamentally steered Christianity.

Microsoft he wasn't self-aware...

It was likely, as neurologists suspect based on the symptom list, an aura from a full grand mal seizure in the temporal lobe.


Auditory hallucinations of divine voices, visions of divine figures, and physical collapse are all common elements of TLE (temporal lobe epilepsy), and they are especially common in documented cases of sudden religious conversion in people with temporal lobe epilepsy.

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul described another experience, in which he was "caught up to paradise and heard sacred secrets which no human lips can repeat." He also claimed that he was "given a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan to rack me" to prevent him from becoming too prideful about his "wealth of visions." This story gives two important indications that Paul might have suffered from TLE: there is confirmation that he had recurring, if not frequent visions, and he had an awareness or perception of some illness in himself.

Sandra Morgan2 said:I don't get this... 😕

Let me be clear: SOME fears are a blessing. Like when you feel that icy chill hit you because you see your kid leaning too far out a window and they might fall. That fear triggers an adrenaline surge from your adrenal glands, and suddenly you're moving like a panther, lunging toward that window to grab them in a split second.

Besides, why should we have to push through every single terrifying experience just to overcome it? Maybe, like I mentioned in my previous post, for certain "mystical" encounters, fear serves a legitimate purpose as a defense mechanism.

Take a woman I know—she had one isolated psychotic break where she completely lost it. She was talking nonsense, screaming, neglecting her hygiene, even trying to fight people close to her. She claimed she met Jesus and realized she was His wife.

Once things calmed down through therapy and medication, she actually became terrified of meditation (TM), which she used to do regularly before the episode. And honestly? She has reason to be afraid. For someone who is mentally fragile—someone with a genetic predisposition or a family history of psychosis and personality disorders—meditation can trigger depersonalization, derealization, or dissociative disorders, and therefore trigger a psychotic episode.

That’s why in Abrahamic traditions, where there are clearly defined archetypes of good and evil, you often see mystics—people whose records suggest they likely achieved enlightenment—who then go on to preach about hellish torments and divine judgment. The most obvious example is Saint Paul in the Christian tradition, who fundamentally steered Christianity.

Microsoft he wasn't self-aware...

It was likely, as neurologists suspect based on the symptom list, an aura from a full grand mal seizure in the temporal lobe.


Auditory hallucinations of divine voices, visions of divine figures, and physical collapse are all common elements of TLE (temporal lobe epilepsy), and they are especially common in documented cases of sudden religious conversion in people with temporal lobe epilepsy.

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul described another experience, in which he was "caught up to paradise and heard sacred secrets which no human lips can repeat." He also claimed that he was "given a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan to rack me" to prevent him from becoming too prideful about his "wealth of visions." This story gives two important indications that Paul might have suffered from TLE: there is confirmation that he had recurring, if not frequent visions, and he had an awareness or perception of some illness in himself.

Maybe. I don't know.

But honestly, Paul is the ultimate example of someone who could take his visions—wherever they actually originated—and distill them into top-tier, crystal-clear analysis. Whatever he experienced, he processed it into something incredibly sharp and coherent.

There are plenty of people out there dealing with epilepsy, but there’s only ever one Paul.

urbanwalker72 said:Perhaps consider it this way—in what area of human endeavor is it considered honest or meaningful to present a claim that simply cannot be verified?

So, we have science and art... In science, they say you can't make a claim without verification... although... just a quick aside... I'm reading bad science right now and seeing that anything goes sometimes.

In the realm of human activity called art, you can speak your heart's desire without any evidence, statistics, math, or lab tests. No one is going to stop and check if you're telling the truth or just dreaming in your book or poem...

A writer's or poet's work becomes great when it vibrates, finds its reflection, and echoes within many people who read it with enthusiasm and delight. That echo means that what the artist thinks, feels, explains, interprets, or creates through imagery, we recognize as a part of ourselves. His world happens inside us and around us; he just knows how to phrase it beautifully with juicy sentences, shaping content that is fundamentally a part of our own experience.

analoghawk13 said:Maybe. I don't know.

But honestly, Paul is the ultimate example of someone who could take his visions—wherever they actually originated—and distill them into top-tier, crystal-clear analysis. Whatever he experienced, he processed it into something incredibly sharp and coherent.

There are plenty of people out there dealing with epilepsy, but there’s only ever one Paul.

They supposedly say that among the "elite" of those with such conditions, there is only one Moses and only one Muhammad. Dostoevsky. van Gogh. Newton. And so on... Plenty of great artists, mystics, scientists. That's why they call it the "illness of the gifted."

Sandra Morgan2 said:So, we have science and art... In science, they say you can't make a claim without verification... although... just a quick aside... I'm reading bad science right now and seeing that anything goes sometimes.

In the realm of human activity called art, you can speak your heart's desire without any evidence, statistics, math, or lab tests. No one is going to stop and check if you're telling the truth or just dreaming in your book or poem...

A writer's or poet's work becomes great when it vibrates, finds its reflection, and echoes within many people who read it with enthusiasm and delight. That echo means that what the artist thinks, feels, explains, interprets, or creates through imagery, we recognize as a part of ourselves. His world happens inside us and around us; he just knows how to phrase it beautifully with juicy sentences, shaping content that is fundamentally a part of our own experience.

They supposedly say that among the "elite" of those with such conditions, there is only one Moses and only one Muhammad. Dostoevsky. van Gogh. Newton. And so on... Plenty of great artists, mystics, scientists. That's why they call it the "illness of the gifted."

Where exactly in bad science did you read that unverifiable claims can be made within the realm of science?

The entire book focuses on either pseudoscience or fundamental flaws in scientific methodology. Having read it twice myself, I haven't found a single instance where Goldacre identifies an unverifiable claim within established science. He certainly finds plenty of them within pseudoscience, however.

In my view, this stands as one of the essential texts for developing critical thinking skills.

In the sphere of human endeavor known as art, you can speak from the soul as much as you desire without any need for evidence, statistics, mathematics, verification, or laboratory testing; no one would think to check whether you are writing truth or mere fantasy in your book or poem...

😕 Art does not deal in claims. When a poet writes a verse or a painter produces a canvas, they are not presenting assertions regarding the truth of a thesis, but rather narratives—personal impressions. No one asks the Brothers Grimm to prove their fairy tales are real, because the author makes no such assertion. In art, stories are fictional by definition; they do not test a thesis for truth or falsehood.

A claim occurs when I ask you to lend me money based solely on a promise to repay it, without providing proof or collateral. A claim is made when I assert that the Virgin Mary appeared to me and demand your belief without evidence. A claim is made when I say aliens abducted me without proof. A claim is made when a prosecutor asserts I stole something without evidence.

Similarly, claims arise in philosophy and mathematics, yet in those fields, proofs are derived through logic.

swiftsurfer27 said:Perhaps they are simply so ubiquitous today—occurring all around us constantly—that we have grown blind to them, treating what was once extraordinary as mere everyday routine. 😁

👍

Sandra Morgan2 said:I don't get this... 😕

Let me be clear: SOME fears are a blessing. Like when you feel that icy chill hit you because you see your kid leaning too far out a window and they might fall. That fear triggers an adrenaline surge from your adrenal glands, and suddenly you're moving like a panther, lunging toward that window to grab them in a split second.

Besides, why should we have to push through every single terrifying experience just to overcome it? Maybe, like I mentioned in my previous post, for certain "mystical" encounters, fear serves a legitimate purpose as a defense mechanism.

Take a woman I know—she had one isolated psychotic break where she completely lost it. She was talking nonsense, screaming, neglecting her hygiene, even trying to fight people close to her. She claimed she met Jesus and realized she was His wife.

Once things calmed down through therapy and medication, she actually became terrified of meditation (TM), which she used to do regularly before the episode. And honestly? She has reason to be afraid. For someone who is mentally fragile—someone with a genetic predisposition or a family history of psychosis and personality disorders—meditation can trigger depersonalization, derealization, or dissociative disorders, and therefore trigger a psychotic episode.

That’s why in Abrahamic traditions, where there are clearly defined archetypes of good and evil, you often see mystics—people whose records suggest they likely achieved enlightenment—who then go on to preach about hellish torments and divine judgment. The most obvious example is Saint Paul in the Christian tradition, who fundamentally steered Christianity.

Microsoft he wasn't self-aware...

It was likely, as neurologists suspect based on the symptom list, an aura from a full grand mal seizure in the temporal lobe.


Auditory hallucinations of divine voices, visions of divine figures, and physical collapse are all common elements of TLE (temporal lobe epilepsy), and they are especially common in documented cases of sudden religious conversion in people with temporal lobe epilepsy.

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul described another experience, in which he was "caught up to paradise and heard sacred secrets which no human lips can repeat." He also claimed that he was "given a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan to rack me" to prevent him from becoming too prideful about his "wealth of visions." This story gives two important indications that Paul might have suffered from TLE: there is confirmation that he had recurring, if not frequent visions, and he had an awareness or perception of some illness in himself.

Fear is a hell of a thing, isn't it? It either forces you to scream your lungs out or just completely freezes you up right when you need to move, leaving your kid even more vulnerable than before. But honestly, between the raw instinct and that deep, unspoken love most people don't even want to talk about? Your reaction is basically set in stone. It’s like some kind of mathematical certainty. You can't fight it.
Here we go again—back in that weird, hazy territory where people claim they’ve had these massive spiritual breakthroughs. It’s one of those things you hear about constantly from moms who have been pushed right to the edge. You know the vibe: when your kid is in actual, life-or-death danger, something just... snaps. It’s like you suddenly step outside your own skin and start operating your body like some kind of high-precision machine. It doesn't even feel like *you* anymore; it feels like you're just a pilot in a suit. There are tons of stories out there documenting this exact phenomenon. The most legendary one? The story about a mother who somehow managed to lift an entire semi-truck just to get her trapped child out from underneath. I mean, come on. It completely flies in the face of every single law of physics we were taught in school, right? But when the adrenaline hits and the stakes are that high, who knows what's actually happening?
Even if you refuse to admit that stuff like this counts as a spiritual experience.

Quincy:

And besides that, why on earth should we feel obligated to run headfirst into every single terrifying experience just to try and conquer it? Like, seriously, what's the point? Maybe—and I might have touched on this briefly in my last post—but let's be real: for some of those "mystical" encounters, that fear isn't just some mental hurdle to jump over. It’s actually a legitimate survival instinct. Sometimes, fear is just your body telling you that something is genuinely wrong, and ignoring that isn't "spiritual growth," it's just plain reckless. Why push through it if the alarm bells are ringing for a reason?

Look, if an experience does nothing but trigger pure, unadulterated fear, why on earth would you go looking for it? Seriously, what’s the payoff? If it doesn't offer anything constructive, it's just dead weight. You gotta steer clear of that stuff—it's not going to do you any favors. Why invite the anxiety if there's zero upside?

Quincy:

So, I know this woman who went through this one massive, isolated psychotic break—and man, it was intense. She completely lost her grip on reality. We’re talking full-on nonsense, screaming at nothing, totally neglecting herself... she just stopped washing up entirely. It got pretty dark, too; she started picking fights with everyone close to her, just lashing out at her own people. And the kicker? In the middle of all that chaos, she genuinely believed she had a run-in with Jesus and walked away convinced she was actually His wife. Can you even imagine that kind of headspace?

Man, you really do know everybody, don't you? Your contact list must be absolutely massive.😍

urbanwalker72 said:Where exactly in bad science did you read that unverifiable claims can be made within the realm of science?

The entire book focuses on either pseudoscience or fundamental flaws in scientific methodology. Having read it twice myself, I haven't found a single instance where Goldacre identifies an unverifiable claim within established science. He certainly finds plenty of them within pseudoscience, however.

In my view, this stands as one of the essential texts for developing critical thinking skills.

In the sphere of human endeavor known as art, you can speak from the soul as much as you desire without any need for evidence, statistics, mathematics, verification, or laboratory testing; no one would think to check whether you are writing truth or mere fantasy in your book or poem...

😕 Art does not deal in claims. When a poet writes a verse or a painter produces a canvas, they are not presenting assertions regarding the truth of a thesis, but rather narratives—personal impressions. No one asks the Brothers Grimm to prove their fairy tales are real, because the author makes no such assertion. In art, stories are fictional by definition; they do not test a thesis for truth or falsehood.

A claim occurs when I ask you to lend me money based solely on a promise to repay it, without providing proof or collateral. A claim is made when I assert that the Virgin Mary appeared to me and demand your belief without evidence. A claim is made when I say aliens abducted me without proof. A claim is made when a prosecutor asserts I stole something without evidence.

Similarly, claims arise in philosophy and mathematics, yet in those fields, proofs are derived through logic.

So, let me get this straight—are you actually giving any credit to logic when it comes to idealistic philosophy, or is your brain strictly wired for nothing but materialism? Like, seriously, does anyone even bother with the "ideas first" crowd anymore, or have we all just collectively decided that if we can't touch it, weigh it, or shove it in a box, it basically doesn't exist? I mean, come on. Is there really any room for actual reasoning in those lofty, abstract theories, or is it all just smoke and mirrors to avoid facing the gritty, messy reality of the physical world? What do you think?
So, here’s a thought that’s been rattling around my brain all morning: just because the math behind multi-dimensional spaces works out perfectly on paper, does that actually mean those dimensions *exist*? Like, seriously. Is a flawless calculation some kind of cosmic receipt proving reality, or are we just playing a really high-stakes game of pretend? It makes you wonder... is mathematics even a science? Or is it just this incredibly elaborate, self-consistent language we built to keep ourselves from staring too long into the void? If the equations balance but there's nothing there to touch, what are we actually doing? Is it discovery, or just really intense pattern matching?

urbanwalker72 said:Where exactly in bad science did you read that unverifiable claims can be made within the realm of science?

The entire book focuses on either pseudoscience or fundamental flaws in scientific methodology. Having read it twice myself, I haven't found a single instance where Goldacre identifies an unverifiable claim within established science. He certainly finds plenty of them within pseudoscience, however.

In my view, this stands as one of the essential texts for developing critical thinking skills.

In the sphere of human endeavor known as art, you can speak from the soul as much as you desire without any need for evidence, statistics, mathematics, verification, or laboratory testing; no one would think to check whether you are writing truth or mere fantasy in your book or poem...

😕 Art does not deal in claims. When a poet writes a verse or a painter produces a canvas, they are not presenting assertions regarding the truth of a thesis, but rather narratives—personal impressions. No one asks the Brothers Grimm to prove their fairy tales are real, because the author makes no such assertion. In art, stories are fictional by definition; they do not test a thesis for truth or falsehood.

A claim occurs when I ask you to lend me money based solely on a promise to repay it, without providing proof or collateral. A claim is made when I assert that the Virgin Mary appeared to me and demand your belief without evidence. A claim is made when I say aliens abducted me without proof. A claim is made when a prosecutor asserts I stole something without evidence.

Similarly, claims arise in philosophy and mathematics, yet in those fields, proofs are derived through logic.

My point was that reading it makes you realize anything goes in science—it's just like any other human endeavor. Bad Science is what happens when scientists are driven by ego, a thirst for promotion, greed, or outright fraud. It's when they falsify data, take bribes, or massage their findings to please whoever is cutting the checks...

😕 Art isn't concerned with making claims.

Well, is it? Take a poet like Mevlan Dželaludin Rumi, the 13th-century mystic. Doesn't he claim we have a spiritual body in addition to our physical one? He also asserts that it outlasts death. As a poet, he doesn't need to present empirical evidence to anyone to prove he's right.

......

Treat your body as the soul you carry.

When you are with the one you love, do you fall in love with their clothes?

Seek instead the one who is truly dressed.

Unity with God is sweeter than any physical pleasure.

We possess hands and feet unlike these.

Sometimes we see them in our dreams.

That isn't an illusion. That is true vision.

You have a spiritual body;

do not fear leaving the physical behind.

Sometimes someone feels this truth so intensely

that they can live comfortably as a hermit in the mountains.

Sandra Morgan2 said:My point was that reading it makes you realize anything goes in science—it's just like any other human endeavor. Bad Science is what happens when scientists are driven by ego, a thirst for promotion, greed, or outright fraud. It's when they falsify data, take bribes, or massage their findings to please whoever is cutting the checks...

😕 Art isn't concerned with making claims.

Well, is it? Take a poet like Mevlan Dželaludin Rumi, the 13th-century mystic. Doesn't he claim we have a spiritual body in addition to our physical one? He also asserts that it outlasts death. As a poet, he doesn't need to present empirical evidence to anyone to prove he's right.

......

Treat your body as the soul you carry.

When you are with the one you love, do you fall in love with their clothes?

Seek instead the one who is truly dressed.

Unity with God is sweeter than any physical pleasure.

We possess hands and feet unlike these.

Sometimes we see them in our dreams.

That isn't an illusion. That is true vision.

You have a spiritual body;

do not fear leaving the physical behind.

Sometimes someone feels this truth so intensely

that they can live comfortably as a hermit in the mountains.

🤔 Could you perhaps provide a bit more specificity regarding your analysis? I am struggling to grasp exactly which passage you are referencing within that book, and I find myself wondering which chapter you have actually reached in your reading.

The vast majority of this work serves as a scathing critique of how the government, the media, and the general public fundamentally misunderstand the scientific method. The remaining portion focuses on the more technical nuances—specifically the accidental or deliberate misuse of statistics, biased sampling methods, and the flawed interpretation of double-blind clinical trials within the realms of pharmacology and medicine.

Could you provide a specific quote? I am finding it somewhat difficult to grasp the exact essence of what you are trying to convey.

Quincy:

Consider the profound insights of Mevlan Dželaludin Rumi, the thirteenth-century mystic and poet. He posits that we possess a spiritual essence that exists alongside our physical form—a soul that transcends the finality of death. As an artist of the spirit, he feels no obligation to present empirical evidence to those who seek only material proof of such a sublime truth.

In the thirteenth century, nobody was concerned with proving anything through empirical data, least of all poets. Generally speaking, once an individual identifies as an artist, they lack the inherent ambition to objectively investigate phenomena, as art is, by its very nature, a deeply subjective pursuit.

Art serves as the profound mirror held up to the soul of a nation, capturing the ephemeral essence of the human experience through various creative mediums. Just as a master architect might design a skyscraper to define a skyline like New York City, artists utilize color, sound, and form to construct the cultural landscape of America. Whether expressed through the sweeping strokes of a canvas or the rhythmic cadence of a poem, art remains an essential pillar of our shared identity, translating raw emotion into a universal language that transcends time and space.

Art serves as a deeply personal human endeavor, one whose inherent significance remains difficult to fully grasp. Much like the complex interplay of light and shadow in a classic American landscape painting, the true essence of art lies in its ability to mirror the intricate depths of the individual soul. It functions as an essential element within the intricate web of communication that connects the artist, the creative work itself, and the audience..
Throughout the various epochs of human history, the significance assigned to art has shifted dramatically; however, since the dawn of the modern era, we have increasingly tended to attribute the following characteristics to the concept of art: Just as every distinct discipline maintains its own sophisticated and independent vernacular, so too does every individual art form possess its own highly developed and autonomous language. Art exists as an entity that maintains its own independent and liberated standing within our society; it carries no socially mandated purpose or predefined obligation to serve a specific function.The true essence of art lies in its ability to fulfill the inherent nature defined by the modernist movement. It is the fundamental principles of liberty, imagination, individuality, discovery, experimentation, rebellion, beauty, truth, and justice that truly define our existence.

As you can observe, the very foundations of art lack both the ambition and the inherent purpose required to uncover or demonstrate any semblance of truth.

urbanwalker72 said:Quincy:

Paul Jones7 As stated by: I don't necessarily need to know the specifics. However, one might wonder how to discern the truth in a more general sense. I wouldn't presume to offer my opinion, nor would I wish to involve myself in such matters.

That was a fair assessment.

Quincy:

If we strictly adhere to the principle that a hypothesis cannot be proposed without absolute empirical proof, one might wonder if the very concept of sharing an opinion becomes obsolete. Must we all become career researchers just to voice a thought? It seems almost as though we are being asked to follow the rigid protocols of a federal investigation just to engage in basic conversation. 🙂 My friend, you are treating this like a spiritual treatise in PDF format; there is certainly no need to write a scientific dissertation here just to share an opinion.

The notion that one should refrain from forming or expressing an opinion is a fallacy; in truth, such intellectual engagement is not merely permitted, but essential to a healthy discourse.

I am not searching this space for rigorous scientific precision or a strict methodological framework, nor am I looking for an analysis of that spirituality PDF; rather, what I am seeking is a fundamental sense of intellectual honesty. It feels as though one is attempting to construct a thesis that is intentionally shielded from verification—a proposition where, as you suggest, being held to any standard of proof simply isn't the objective.

Unverifiable premises may serve as a legitimate foundation for faith or hope, yet they certainly lack the substance required to constitute an intellectually rigorous argument.

Look, urbanwalker72—if a person actually puts in the work and trains their mind, they could basically tap into abilities straight out of some wild sci-fi blockbuster. And I’m not just talking out of my ass here; I’ve definitely dabbled in that headspace myself enough times to know what I'm talking about. Honestly, if I’m being totally real, I get sucked into this stuff because of those "paranormal" vibes, but it’s more than that—it’s about digging into the raw, unexplored depths of what humans are actually capable of. It's all about unlocking that hidden potential we're all sitting on.

Look, here’s the thing—it’s actually possible to read someone else's mind without them ever opening their mouth. I'm talking about picking up on those silent cues, those tiny shifts in energy that tell you exactly what's going on in their head. And honestly? It goes even deeper than that. You can actually nudge someone's thoughts so effectively that they end up believing the idea was entirely their own. Like, they think they just had this sudden epiphany, when really, you were the one pulling the strings the whole time. Of course, you don't see this happening every day—you need a massive amount of raw talent and some serious, disciplined training to pull that off. That's why it stays such a rare, almost invisible skill.

Elizabeth Castillo87 said:Fear is a hell of a thing, isn't it? It either forces you to scream your lungs out or just completely freezes you up right when you need to move, leaving your kid even more vulnerable than before. But honestly, between the raw instinct and that deep, unspoken love most people don't even want to talk about? Your reaction is basically set in stone. It’s like some kind of mathematical certainty. You can't fight it.
Here we go again—back in that weird, hazy territory where people claim they’ve had these massive spiritual breakthroughs. It’s one of those things you hear about constantly from moms who have been pushed right to the edge. You know the vibe: when your kid is in actual, life-or-death danger, something just... snaps. It’s like you suddenly step outside your own skin and start operating your body like some kind of high-precision machine. It doesn't even feel like *you* anymore; it feels like you're just a pilot in a suit. There are tons of stories out there documenting this exact phenomenon. The most legendary one? The story about a mother who somehow managed to lift an entire semi-truck just to get her trapped child out from underneath. I mean, come on. It completely flies in the face of every single law of physics we were taught in school, right? But when the adrenaline hits and the stakes are that high, who knows what's actually happening?
Even if you refuse to admit that stuff like this counts as a spiritual experience.

Quincy:

And besides that, why on earth should we feel obligated to run headfirst into every single terrifying experience just to try and conquer it? Like, seriously, what's the point? Maybe—and I might have touched on this briefly in my last post—but let's be real: for some of those "mystical" encounters, that fear isn't just some mental hurdle to jump over. It’s actually a legitimate survival instinct. Sometimes, fear is just your body telling you that something is genuinely wrong, and ignoring that isn't "spiritual growth," it's just plain reckless. Why push through it if the alarm bells are ringing for a reason?

Look, if an experience does nothing but trigger pure, unadulterated fear, why on earth would you go looking for it? Seriously, what’s the payoff? If it doesn't offer anything constructive, it's just dead weight. You gotta steer clear of that stuff—it's not going to do you any favors. Why invite the anxiety if there's zero upside?

Quincy:

So, I know this woman who went through this one massive, isolated psychotic break—and man, it was intense. She completely lost her grip on reality. We’re talking full-on nonsense, screaming at nothing, totally neglecting herself... she just stopped washing up entirely. It got pretty dark, too; she started picking fights with everyone close to her, just lashing out at her own people. And the kicker? In the middle of all that chaos, she genuinely believed she had a run-in with Jesus and walked away convinced she was actually His wife. Can you even imagine that kind of headspace?

Man, you really do know everybody, don't you? Your contact list must be absolutely massive.😍

So, let me get this straight—are you actually giving any credit to logic when it comes to idealistic philosophy, or is your brain strictly wired for nothing but materialism? Like, seriously, does anyone even bother with the "ideas first" crowd anymore, or have we all just collectively decided that if we can't touch it, weigh it, or shove it in a box, it basically doesn't exist? I mean, come on. Is there really any room for actual reasoning in those lofty, abstract theories, or is it all just smoke and mirrors to avoid facing the gritty, messy reality of the physical world? What do you think?
So, here’s a thought that’s been rattling around my brain all morning: just because the math behind multi-dimensional spaces works out perfectly on paper, does that actually mean those dimensions *exist*? Like, seriously. Is a flawless calculation some kind of cosmic receipt proving reality, or are we just playing a really high-stakes game of pretend? It makes you wonder... is mathematics even a science? Or is it just this incredibly elaborate, self-consistent language we built to keep ourselves from staring too long into the void? If the equations balance but there's nothing there to touch, what are we actually doing? Is it discovery, or just really intense pattern matching?

The question feels somewhat too broad; I would need to examine specific instances of evidence and see how they align with their own logical premises before determining if I am even capable of providing an answer.

Calculations regarding multi-dimensional spaces are perfectly accurate within mathematics. Does that serve as proof of their existence? Or is mathematics not truly a science?

Mathematics exists as its own distinct realm, and a mathematical proof represents perhaps the highest level of evidentiary integrity the human mind has ever produced. It does not merely interface with physical reality, but weaves through the human psyche, philosophy, art, spirituality, and everything we perceive as being real.

Indeed, multi-dimensional spaces in a mathematical sense do exist; that has been established. However, I believe you are conflating this with physical multi-dimensional spaces, which remain unproven.

When a theorem is proven in mathematics, it does not inherently mandate its existence within our observable reality, even though such a correlation occurs frequently. When something is found to exist within the mathematical landscape, there is often a suggestion that we might encounter something similar in the physical world. This is quite natural, given that mathematics possesses a much richer tapestry of structures and quantities than our observable universe.

The profound and inexplicable bridge between mathematics and our physical reality remains one of the most significant mysteries the human intellect has ever grappled with. There are numerous hypotheses regarding this connection, such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathema...rse_hypothesis

This is a deeply complex subject that requires a certain degree of mathematical literacy—true understanding, really—and it winds extensively through the philosophy of mathematics.

If we wish to pursue this, we ought to move the discussion to the Philosophy or Pure Science boards, as we are drifting quite far off-topic here.

Angela Cox4 said:Look, urbanwalker72—if a person actually puts in the work and trains their mind, they could basically tap into abilities straight out of some wild sci-fi blockbuster. And I’m not just talking out of my ass here; I’ve definitely dabbled in that headspace myself enough times to know what I'm talking about. Honestly, if I’m being totally real, I get sucked into this stuff because of those "paranormal" vibes, but it’s more than that—it’s about digging into the raw, unexplored depths of what humans are actually capable of. It's all about unlocking that hidden potential we're all sitting on.

Look, here’s the thing—it’s actually possible to read someone else's mind without them ever opening their mouth. I'm talking about picking up on those silent cues, those tiny shifts in energy that tell you exactly what's going on in their head. And honestly? It goes even deeper than that. You can actually nudge someone's thoughts so effectively that they end up believing the idea was entirely their own. Like, they think they just had this sudden epiphany, when really, you were the one pulling the strings the whole time. Of course, you don't see this happening every day—you need a massive amount of raw talent and some serious, disciplined training to pull that off. That's why it stays such a rare, almost invisible skill.

Your perspective offers nothing unexpected to me. In a purely theoretical sense, anything remains possible, as nothing can be dismissed with absolute certainty.

However, a concept only establishes itself as truth when it is demonstrated in a manner that allows even the most hardened skeptics to verify it for themselves.

In my view, that is the only fair approach. It is hardly reasonable to expect a stranger to simply take one's word for it.

urbanwalker72 said:The question feels somewhat too broad; I would need to examine specific instances of evidence and see how they align with their own logical premises before determining if I am even capable of providing an answer.

Calculations regarding multi-dimensional spaces are perfectly accurate within mathematics. Does that serve as proof of their existence? Or is mathematics not truly a science?

Mathematics exists as its own distinct realm, and a mathematical proof represents perhaps the highest level of evidentiary integrity the human mind has ever produced. It does not merely interface with physical reality, but weaves through the human psyche, philosophy, art, spirituality, and everything we perceive as being real.

Indeed, multi-dimensional spaces in a mathematical sense do exist; that has been established. However, I believe you are conflating this with physical multi-dimensional spaces, which remain unproven.

When a theorem is proven in mathematics, it does not inherently mandate its existence within our observable reality, even though such a correlation occurs frequently. When something is found to exist within the mathematical landscape, there is often a suggestion that we might encounter something similar in the physical world. This is quite natural, given that mathematics possesses a much richer tapestry of structures and quantities than our observable universe.

The profound and inexplicable bridge between mathematics and our physical reality remains one of the most significant mysteries the human intellect has ever grappled with. There are numerous hypotheses regarding this connection, such as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathema...rse_hypothesis

This is a deeply complex subject that requires a certain degree of mathematical literacy—true understanding, really—and it winds extensively through the philosophy of mathematics.

If we wish to pursue this, we ought to move the discussion to the Philosophy or Pure Science boards, as we are drifting quite far off-topic here.

Fair point, we definitely drifted off-topic. I’ll give you this: math is the queen. But I’m not buying your idea that it sits above spirituality. Even the absolute math geniuses need inspiration to function. Honestly, I tend to lump scientific pioneers in with the pioneers of art. Both groups expand how we see the world, but art reaches a much wider audience and has such a huge impact on how we process cognition.

"Art speaks to that part of our being which is a gift, rather than an acquisition—and is therefore more enduring."
Joseph Conrad

It’s quite a talent to claim mathematics holds dominion over spirituality! In this logic, math comes first, then God emerges, followed by the universe, and finally humanity. It’s as if Pythagoras invented pi, which then gave rise to $2\pi r$ and the circle—which is essentially divine simply because of its perfect, unbroken shape. Eventually, pi led to the calculator, which somehow calculated all of humanity. I find myself grateful to math every single day for being superior to spirituality. Every morning when I wake up, I solve an equation where $x$ represents my current lack of enlightenment, and every night, I calculate the statistical probability of actually achieving it.

electrictinker26 said:It’s quite a talent to claim mathematics holds dominion over spirituality! In this logic, math comes first, then God emerges, followed by the universe, and finally humanity. It’s as if Pythagoras invented pi, which then gave rise to $2\pi r$ and the circle—which is essentially divine simply because of its perfect, unbroken shape. Eventually, pi led to the calculator, which somehow calculated all of humanity. I find myself grateful to math every single day for being superior to spirituality. Every morning when I wake up, I solve an equation where $x$ represents my current lack of enlightenment, and every night, I calculate the statistical probability of actually achieving it.

Math isn't sitting on a throne above spirituality; it's a fundamental part of it, a single segment. We’re living in a shifting universe that mystics call an Illusion. Above all this surface-level change lie laws that humanity hasn't even grasped yet. Science doesn't truly "know" these laws; it just utilizes the products they create. Think of gravity: gravity isn't the law itself, it's just how the law manifests. Beyond those laws lies something even greater: Creative Genius. Math isn't that genius in its own right. We are incredibly small and powerless compared to the phenomena occurring around us. Our minds are so limited that we struggle to understand our own selves, let alone mathematics, the Spirit, the cosmos, or cosmic energy fields. But honestly, that's not nearly as important as turning our attention toward spirituality. Right now, science is wandering through deep delusions regarding the cosmos, medicine is struggling because it doesn't grasp the mechanics of how sickness and healing actually work, physics is lost because it doesn't understand the essence of matter and energy, and psychology is failing because it doesn't understand the psyche or consciousness.

When people say "science doesn't exist," what they really mean is that there are flashes of insight from rare, enlightened individuals that shine through the dark. These ideas are linked by secret connections, but it's a depth that the average person can hardly bridge. What we call "science" isn't some complete, unified body of knowledge. It's just a collection of things we need to move past once we develop the right paradigm—a paradigm we don't currently possess. Instead, we carry around billions of different paradigms, which is really just a fancy way of saying ignorance, constantly searching for answers outside ourselves.

Michael Gonzalez77,

That little rhyme or quote you’ve got in your signature? It perfectly captures how fleeting everything actually is.
No matter how I look at it, it all points back to that one truth.
If you really sit down and think about it, it’s wild how we basically hypnotize ourselves into believing death is something that happens to "other people"... like it has nothing to do with us, even though we intellectually know everyone dies eventually.
By the time death actually catches up to us, all that stuff we spent our lives stressing over becomes totally irrelevant.
I don't even know how to make that point clearer.
How do you even hit people with that kind of force?

Everyone should be aware of this reality; it changes how you see everything when you view life through the lens of being temporary—inevitable, relentless, and final.
You’ve gotta always keep one eye on what’s waiting for us on the horizon...
Once you do that the right way, everything snaps into perspective instantly.
Whatever it is, whatever you end up doing with that realization in your heart,^ you won't be tied down by the small stuff.
I don't know about the rest of you, but feeling that sense of transience gives me this incredible rush.
It throws me into these intense states of mind;
Everything suddenly feels easy and manageable when viewed "in that light."
Everything feels "new"... suddenly interesting.
In that state of deep inner connection, everything just gets soaked in meaning...
Like, say, when you're walking through a landscape for the last time, knowing you'll never see it again.
It's like you suddenly wake up and notice hundreds of tiny details you would've completely missed before.

Those "levers" that can snap us into spiritual alertness are right there under our noses... they're so easy to use if you want.

You just have to try.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77,

That little rhyme or quote you’ve got in your signature? It perfectly captures how fleeting everything actually is.
No matter how I look at it, it all points back to that one truth.
If you really sit down and think about it, it’s wild how we basically hypnotize ourselves into believing death is something that happens to "other people"... like it has nothing to do with us, even though we intellectually know everyone dies eventually.
By the time death actually catches up to us, all that stuff we spent our lives stressing over becomes totally irrelevant.
I don't even know how to make that point clearer.
How do you even hit people with that kind of force?

Everyone should be aware of this reality; it changes how you see everything when you view life through the lens of being temporary—inevitable, relentless, and final.
You’ve gotta always keep one eye on what’s waiting for us on the horizon...
Once you do that the right way, everything snaps into perspective instantly.
Whatever it is, whatever you end up doing with that realization in your heart,^ you won't be tied down by the small stuff.
I don't know about the rest of you, but feeling that sense of transience gives me this incredible rush.
It throws me into these intense states of mind;
Everything suddenly feels easy and manageable when viewed "in that light."
Everything feels "new"... suddenly interesting.
In that state of deep inner connection, everything just gets soaked in meaning...
Like, say, when you're walking through a landscape for the last time, knowing you'll never see it again.
It's like you suddenly wake up and notice hundreds of tiny details you would've completely missed before.

Those "levers" that can snap us into spiritual alertness are right there under our noses... they're so easy to use if you want.

You just have to try.

I’m starting to feel this sense of transience more than ever, but instead of fear, I’m finding myself aligning with what is actually eternal. There’s no reason to be afraid. On the flip side, there’s this incredible liberation of consciousness happening—a feeling that everything I see, hear, and touch is becoming more abundant. It comes from living consciously, without letting my intellect get in the way. Overthinking acts like a set of brakes; you get so caught up in intellectualizing life that you stop truly living it. You lose that ability to radiate pure joy just by existing, treating life like some fleeting dream that's just a precursor to another one. According to the mystics, there is only one true birth and one true death. This process is really about the death of the ego—its transformation into a divine ego—which essentially means the definitive death of the mind. People are terrified of the "death of the mind" because they think they’re losing their sense of space, time, and the illusions they’ve clung to in this lifetime. But honestly? Those attachments are exactly what hold people back. They cause us pain and prevent us from reaching our full potential. In fact, staying stuck in those attachments is a step backward. The fundamental principle of the cosmos is growth and evolution; consciousness is constantly creating and refining its own increasingly perfect form through material existence.

According to them, everything falls into place like that dream Rumi talks about in the verse I mentioned—a divine dream, really. It’s like an unreal shadow of the divine nature (think of the concept of Maya in Hinduism or the idea of samsara in Tibetan Buddhism), where the main character is God trying to recognize Himself through a consciousness that has been narrowed down into a single body and a limited ego, full of nothing but illusions.

Look, I won’t drone on about this, but I truly believe we need to learn how to detach ourselves from the world internally. It’s like that idea of "dying to God" just so you can actually start living. At our core, we aren't just isolated individuals; we are reflections of Him—the whole, complete, infinite, and limitless essence. That’s our true nature lying dormant inside us. Everything we experience is actually God living through us. Our limited ego is really just a temporary station—it’s a necessary hub for consciousness to function, sure, but it isn't who we actually are.

Death is just the end of one dream before the next one begins—then a third, and a fourth—until consciousness finally sheds all those illusions and dies once and for all, allowing us to be truly born.

So, I had this wild dream where two people showed up to visit me. It was right at the end of the day, just as the sun was starting to dip below the horizon. I had this intense feeling like I had some kind of duty I absolutely had to fulfill, but one of them kept messing with my head—trying to break my focus. I can’t tell if they were doing it on purpose or what, but right at the tail end of the dream, just as I snapped awake, there it was. In the pitch black of the hallway, I saw this... thing. This creature made of pure light, waving these weird little tentacles toward my eyes. Honestly, I freaked the hell out and just shoved it away. Even though it didn't look like it was trying to hurt me, I've heard too many stories from other people about why you shouldn't trust those kinds of entities—plus, the way it was hovering around my eyes and head felt way too invasive, so I reacted pretty aggressively.

What’s your take on all this?

Are the people we see in our dreams just projections of our own consciousness—just bits and pieces of our subconscious—or is there something much deeper going on here?

Angela Cox4 said:So, I had this wild dream where two people showed up to visit me. It was right at the end of the day, just as the sun was starting to dip below the horizon. I had this intense feeling like I had some kind of duty I absolutely had to fulfill, but one of them kept messing with my head—trying to break my focus. I can’t tell if they were doing it on purpose or what, but right at the tail end of the dream, just as I snapped awake, there it was. In the pitch black of the hallway, I saw this... thing. This creature made of pure light, waving these weird little tentacles toward my eyes. Honestly, I freaked the hell out and just shoved it away. Even though it didn't look like it was trying to hurt me, I've heard too many stories from other people about why you shouldn't trust those kinds of entities—plus, the way it was hovering around my eyes and head felt way too invasive, so I reacted pretty aggressively.

What’s your take on all this?

Are the people we see in our dreams just projections of our own consciousness—just bits and pieces of our subconscious—or is there something much deeper going on here?

Yeah, based on documented cases, that thin line between dreaming and being awake is a massive trigger for spiritual experiences. Now, not everyone would label them "spiritual," and personally, I hate using terms like "paranormal" or "supernatural." Those words make it sound like these things aren't part of the natural order, and I don't believe anything exists that isn't natural. It's just unexplained.
From what I've gathered through my own experiences—mostly while dreaming—the golden rule is: don't let fear take the wheel.
But hey, now we're getting into the territory of lucid dreaming.🙂

Elizabeth Castillo87 said:Look, we’ve all heard the chatter by now—there are endless studies out there showing that you can actually trigger these intense "spiritual" experiences just by poking at specific centers in the brain. It’s everywhere. You’ve got astronauts floating in the void having these profound moments, people tripping on psychedelics, near-death experiences... it's a whole spectrum of weirdness.
The typical scientific take? They argue that if you can just flip a switch in the brain to make these things happen, then it’s all just neurochemistry. To them, it’s proof there’s nothing "out there," just neurons firing in the dark. Naturally, religious folks look at those kinds of experiments with a massive amount of skepticism.
But honestly? I see it differently. To me, the fact that we can even induce these states suggests we’re sitting on a mountain of knowledge we aren't even aware of—stuff that's buried incredibly deep. If you look at it through the lens of biological evolution, there’s zero survival reason for us to carry around those kinds of heavy, ancient memories, no matter how deep they go.
People who get hit with these induced experiences usually end up totally lost, not knowing what to do with themselves. And let's be real, even when these things hit you out of nowhere, it’s a hell of a thing to process. It isn't easy to carry.
But seriously, since anyone can basically be triggered into this state, how does that prove it's somehow meaningless? How does being able to replicate it mean it doesn't matter?

It really depends on the experience. 🙂

During my childhood, up until about age 12 or 13, I regularly had what I wouldn't necessarily call a "spiritual experience," but rather very fascinating perceptions of reality. They usually lasted for a few hours—ebbing and flowing—and I could actually summon them myself if I wanted to. 🙂

It felt like this:

Suddenly, I would become aware of the "perfection" of everything. Everything was exactly where it belonged—a stone on the path, a falling leaf, someone’s hand gesture, an insect flying by... Everything inside and outside of me seemed to be exactly where it should be. At the same time, everything felt incredibly significant, the most important thing imaginable. Every blade of grass, every speck of dust, every spoken word, every single thought of mine—it was all perfectly meaningful, the most vital thing in the world. Everything was perfect, and everything was paramount. 🙂

No matter where I looked, I saw beauty. I remember being unable to tear my eyes away from people's faces; everyone, young and old, seemed stunningly beautiful. 🙂 And while talking to someone, I would occasionally think, "I was once YOU, and now I am ME, and everything is wonderful. It is so lovely to be ME," and I would be overcome by this boundless joy of existence. 🙂 There were moments when I had flashes of memory regarding what it felt like to be that other person, but they were fleeting, and I would quickly return to MYSELF and enjoy the sheer joy of being. 🙂

Unfortunately, I was too young to grasp the value of these experiences. To me, they were just normal, and as I grew up, other experiences began to feel more interesting. This unique perception of self and the world appeared less and less frequently until it eventually faded away entirely.

I don't know if I will ever be able to see reality that way again, but I hope that perspective returns to me someday. 🙂 It is likely tucked away somewhere, waiting for the right moment to resurface. 🙂 (At least, that's what I like to believe.)

But how does the fact that it can be induced in anyone serve as proof that it isn't worth mentioning?

I'm not certain if every "spiritual experience" can be induced, especially the ones where a person has control—meaning they can repeat them and summon them at will.

Oh, you’re such a little princess, aren't you? 🙂

Look, if you actually get that this perfection hasn't gone anywhere—it's still right there waiting—then the quickest way to experience it all over again is through cutting.