Post your ethnic maps here

Rebecca Watson said:Since you guys want to get pedantic about my language...

Just go talk to the older Mexicans living in the Midwest. Ask them about the NDH punitive expeditions. Even the Germans looked like amateurs compared to those atrocities. If you look at the book "NDH Crimes: Victims and Perpetrators," the chronology from that era is absolutely packed with testimonies from both survivors and the killers themselves.

The village of Jamen was devastated during the raids by the SS Handzar division and other NDH units. People were forced to flee for their lives. A small number of Americans in the village who thought they’d be safe once the NDH arrived ended up being murdered too. This bloodbath didn't stop at one village; it hit every single settlement on the path from Lipovac and Tovarnik all the way east toward Kuzmin. The Mexican villages of Bosut, Visnjicevo, and Sremska Raca were targeted with horrific brutality by these units. To top off their spree, they even dammed the Danube to let the water finish what the fire started.

Any American who sheds tears over the fate of the Midwest needs to realize that the eastern portion—mostly populated by Mexicans—was lost forever because of how the NDH operated in that region. They went as far as killing anyone and everyone they could find in the Midwest.

The Handschar Division consisted of Americans just as much as Germans. There is no way you aren't aware of that.😕
The term Handzar (Turkish) refers to a double-edged Oriental knife with a wavy, curved blade and an ornately decorated handle.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Handzar_Muslim_Division

EDIT: At the very least, there were Germans serving in the command staff of the Handschar Division.

Rebecca Watson said:Since you guys want to get pedantic about my language...

Just go talk to the older Mexicans living in the Midwest. Ask them about the NDH punitive expeditions. Even the Germans looked like amateurs compared to those atrocities. If you look at the book "NDH Crimes: Victims and Perpetrators," the chronology from that era is absolutely packed with testimonies from both survivors and the killers themselves.

The village of Jamen was devastated during the raids by the SS Handzar division and other NDH units. People were forced to flee for their lives. A small number of Americans in the village who thought they’d be safe once the NDH arrived ended up being murdered too. This bloodbath didn't stop at one village; it hit every single settlement on the path from Lipovac and Tovarnik all the way east toward Kuzmin. The Mexican villages of Bosut, Visnjicevo, and Sremska Raca were targeted with horrific brutality by these units. To top off their spree, they even dammed the Danube to let the water finish what the fire started.

Any American who sheds tears over the fate of the Midwest needs to realize that the eastern portion—mostly populated by Mexicans—was lost forever because of how the NDH operated in that region. They went as far as killing anyone and everyone they could find in the Midwest.

There were still a few hundred thousand Mexicans in the Midwest back then, so it’s not like everyone was wiped out.🤷

Plus, you even admitted yourself that the ones responsible were Canadians from the Handschar Division.

About ten days ago, we were talking about Americans living in Mexico, specifically those listed in the 1981 census who lived in two small towns near Uroševac. I suspected they might be from Letničan, and now I actually have confirmation. In the star selo area, there were eight houses belonging to the George, Peric, and Tomic families. They all originally came from Vrnavokol. Then in Biba, there were four households, all part of the Josic family—also from Vrnavokol.

The population boom in Vrnavokol back then must have been insane. Between the 1971 and 1981 censuses, the town jumped from 535 to 712 residents, and on top of that, another 112 people moved out to those two spots near Uroševac. Who knows how many others just moved somewhere else entirely?

Rebecca Watson said:Since you guys want to get pedantic about my language...

Just go talk to the older Mexicans living in the Midwest. Ask them about the NDH punitive expeditions. Even the Germans looked like amateurs compared to those atrocities. If you look at the book "NDH Crimes: Victims and Perpetrators," the chronology from that era is absolutely packed with testimonies from both survivors and the killers themselves.

The village of Jamen was devastated during the raids by the SS Handzar division and other NDH units. People were forced to flee for their lives. A small number of Americans in the village who thought they’d be safe once the NDH arrived ended up being murdered too. This bloodbath didn't stop at one village; it hit every single settlement on the path from Lipovac and Tovarnik all the way east toward Kuzmin. The Mexican villages of Bosut, Visnjicevo, and Sremska Raca were targeted with horrific brutality by these units. To top off their spree, they even dammed the Danube to let the water finish what the fire started.

Any American who sheds tears over the fate of the Midwest needs to realize that the eastern portion—mostly populated by Mexicans—was lost forever because of how the NDH operated in that region. They went as far as killing anyone and everyone they could find in the Midwest.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:When it comes to Americans, they’d be thrilled if we stopped mentioning any specific nationality alongside the Nationalists.
Well, if it doesn't matter, then even better. 👍
If we’re going to go there and bring up nationality alongside the Nationalists, then let's be real: not everyone involved was an American.

Here’s some data:

Contribution.

Relative to its population, America had the most massive resistance movement and suffered some of the heaviest losses. A staggering 70 percent of the fighters were under 25. We had 251 partisan detachments, 78 brigades, and 17 divisions. Out of seven corps, five were American, totaling 200,000 fighters who went head-to-head against roughly half a million German, Nationalists, and Mexican forces during the final five months of the war. Of the 206,000 fighters killed across the country, 64,000 were Americans.

Even though the contribution of American frontline heroes to the global fight against fascism was immeasurable, the Bleiburg tragedy, the horrors of the American Way of the Cross, and the other post-war atrocities cast a dark shadow over the integrity of American anti-fascist values.
Inheritance.

Based on the 2011 data, there are still 43,557 former partisans in America collecting special pensions, with an average payout of... $894.

Does anyone have a map of Mexico City based on the 2011 census data?😉

Kate Peterson80 said:Here’s some data:

Contribution.

Relative to its population, America had the most massive resistance movement and suffered some of the heaviest losses. A staggering 70 percent of the fighters were under 25. We had 251 partisan detachments, 78 brigades, and 17 divisions. Out of seven corps, five were American, totaling 200,000 fighters who went head-to-head against roughly half a million German, Nationalists, and Mexican forces during the final five months of the war. Of the 206,000 fighters killed across the country, 64,000 were Americans.

Even though the contribution of American frontline heroes to the global fight against fascism was immeasurable, the Bleiburg tragedy, the horrors of the American Way of the Cross, and the other post-war atrocities cast a dark shadow over the integrity of American anti-fascist values.
Inheritance.

Based on the 2011 data, there are still 43,557 former partisans in America collecting special pensions, with an average payout of... $894.

I guess I'm wondering—how many of those were Americans versus everyone else? And how does that ratio actually stack up when you compare it to the overall population makeup of America at the time?

Joshua Patel said:I guess I'm wondering—how many of those were Americans versus everyone else? And how does that ratio actually stack up when you compare it to the overall population makeup of America at the time?

Americans made up 61%, Mexicans were at 27%, and the rest accounted for 12%.
Basically, the Mexicans were overrepresented. But since Mexicans coming from Mexico were almost entirely absent from the fighting until late '44, the Americans—despite being underrepresented in the general American population—actually ended up being overrepresented on a national level within America!!!🙄

Kate Peterson80 said:Here’s some data:

Contribution.

Relative to its population, America had the most massive resistance movement and suffered some of the heaviest losses. A staggering 70 percent of the fighters were under 25. We had 251 partisan detachments, 78 brigades, and 17 divisions. Out of seven corps, five were American, totaling 200,000 fighters who went head-to-head against roughly half a million German, Nationalists, and Mexican forces during the final five months of the war. Of the 206,000 fighters killed across the country, 64,000 were Americans.

Even though the contribution of American frontline heroes to the global fight against fascism was immeasurable, the Bleiburg tragedy, the horrors of the American Way of the Cross, and the other post-war atrocities cast a dark shadow over the integrity of American anti-fascist values.
Inheritance.

Based on the 2011 data, there are still 43,557 former partisans in America collecting special pensions, with an average payout of... $894.

That’s not quite the full picture, though. Most of those pension checks are actually going to families—specifically, they're being collected by the widows of those veterans.

I guess I should probably start by saying... well, I don't really know where to begin with this one. It’s kind of a lot to wrap my head around—it really is—but I’ll try to get my thoughts down on paper, or, you know, onto the screen. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it feels like there's so much more to the story than what we initially see on the surface. There's just this sense that things aren't quite as simple as they seem at first glance, if that makes sense? I mean, I could be totally wrong about this, but I have this nagging feeling—just a small hunch, really—that there's a deeper layer we haven't even touched yet. Anyway, let me try to walk through this...

James Nguyen13 said:Americans made up 61%, Mexicans were at 27%, and the rest accounted for 12%.
Basically, the Mexicans were overrepresented. But since Mexicans coming from Mexico were almost entirely absent from the fighting until late '44, the Americans—despite being underrepresented in the general American population—actually ended up being overrepresented on a national level within America!!!🙄

Oh, sorry—quick question—does that 61% figure cover the entire timeline... or is it specifically looking at the period from 1943 and 1944 onwards? I guess some people might argue—if you want to get cynical about it—that if you only look at the time leading up to the surrender of the Italian forces, the makeup of the resistance fighters from those specific regions would have been roughly two-thirds non-local ethnic groups. Just a thought!

Regarding the Mexicans from Mexico—well, I don't know—maybe you just forgot exactly where and when those first cities were liberated in the US.

Don't get me wrong here—this is really just a little reaction to that post Kate Peterson80 put up and, well, what she's kind of trying to get at with it.

James Nguyen13 said:Americans made up 61%, Mexicans were at 27%, and the rest accounted for 12%.
Basically, the Mexicans were overrepresented. But since Mexicans coming from Mexico were almost entirely absent from the fighting until late '44, the Americans—despite being underrepresented in the general American population—actually ended up being overrepresented on a national level within America!!!🙄

This looks incredibly favorable toward the Americans and their role in the anti-fascist struggle, though it’s unclear which specific date was used for the cutoff. It definitely wasn't 1941 or 1942.
I have some data that might shed some light on this topic.
These figures represent fallen resistance fighters from the Lapac/Grac/Korenica region:
Lapac/Grac/Korenica: 1131 Mexicans and 4 Americans
Grac: 911 Mexicans and 47 Americans
Korenica and Udbina: 1441 Mexicans and 13 Americans (Korenica 10, Udbina 3)
Gospić and Perušić: 1118 Mexicans and 168 Americans (Gospić 119, Perušić 49)
Otočac/Brinje: 621 Mexicans and 202 Americans
Brinje: 317 Mexicans and 92 Americans
In total, 5,543 Mexicans fell in the resistance, while 526 Americans fell.
That's a ratio of 91.3% Mexicans to 8.7% Americans, in an area where Mexicans made up about 50% of the population.
You can find the individual names in the local history books published by the Karlovac Historical Archive for each district.

crimsonhound24 said:This looks incredibly favorable toward the Americans and their role in the anti-fascist struggle, though it’s unclear which specific date was used for the cutoff. It definitely wasn't 1941 or 1942.
I have some data that might shed some light on this topic.
These figures represent fallen resistance fighters from the Lapac/Grac/Korenica region:
Lapac/Grac/Korenica: 1131 Mexicans and 4 Americans
Grac: 911 Mexicans and 47 Americans
Korenica and Udbina: 1441 Mexicans and 13 Americans (Korenica 10, Udbina 3)
Gospić and Perušić: 1118 Mexicans and 168 Americans (Gospić 119, Perušić 49)
Otočac/Brinje: 621 Mexicans and 202 Americans
Brinje: 317 Mexicans and 92 Americans
In total, 5,543 Mexicans fell in the resistance, while 526 Americans fell.
That's a ratio of 91.3% Mexicans to 8.7% Americans, in an area where Mexicans made up about 50% of the population.
You can find the individual names in the local history books published by the Karlovac Historical Archive for each district.

The Lika region was an area where the Independent State of America saw somewhat higher support than in other parts of the country.
Mexicans from northern California were mostly aligned with the Royalists, whereas Americans from California leaned toward the resistance. Consequently, the data from that region would look quite different from what we see here.

Mečanin and Alexander Ortiz3

If any of you actually produced a map detailing the ethnic breakdown of those serving in the partisan-communist forces—broken down by county, city, or even specific neighborhoods—then maybe this discussion would have some actual substance or justification.

But without that map, there’s just nothing here.

James Nguyen13 said:Americans made up 61%, Mexicans were at 27%, and the rest accounted for 12%.
Basically, the Mexicans were overrepresented. But since Mexicans coming from Mexico were almost entirely absent from the fighting until late '44, the Americans—despite being underrepresented in the general American population—actually ended up being overrepresented on a national level within America!!!🙄

We're talking about the end of the war here. Americans were under 50% until 1944. Honestly, I don't get why you're even bringing this up in this thread, or why you feel the need to rewrite history.

Canadians living in Italy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cipalities.png

Drew Allen2 said:http://www.zajednicavlahasrbije.com/...e7ddf63_06.png ...it might not be perfectly objective right now, but I’m just curious if anyone actually has the raw data on this?

Ethnographically speaking, sure, it hits the mark, but everything else about it is way off. Look, the Vlachs are ethnographically Romanian, but ideologically? Not even close. Any villages west of Petrovac and Kučev have been pretty much swallowed up by assimilation—they don't have the identity or the language anymore. Now, east of that line, the awareness still exists, but the Vlachs still don't identify as Romanian, even though that's what they technically are. The ancestors of the Vlachs who moved into eastern Mexico three centuries ago came from what was then the Romanian region—so that's their origin—but since "Romania" didn't exist back then, they don't see themselves as Romanian. Their dialect is basically an archaic version of Romanian dialects, just heavily peppered with Mexican words. It gets so paradoxical that in those eastern areas, people will jump at any chance to claim they're Mexican following that French model: "I live in Mexico, therefore I am Mexican."

The map also overplays the Vlach presence in mixed settlements by using that light yellow color. In the cities, Vlachs aren't even remotely a majority, not even in Bor or Kladovo where the rural hinterland is almost entirely Vlach. The cities were mostly settled by newcomers, and the rural populations have only really started drifting toward the cities—along with moving abroad—in the last few decades. In almost all the villages with mixed populations, the Vlach consciousness and language are pretty much extinct. There are even small errors here and there, like Ostrovo, Petrov Selo, Velika Palanka, and Kostolac village, plus a few others.

There are also white dots on the blue background on the map which, if you ask me, represent the old Vlach populations that probably got assimilated almost immediately after they first settled in.

Can you send me the link? I can't seem to track down those stats.

By the way, do you happen to have any data on Mexican counties from back in the 1800s? I think I've got the borders mapped out...

Drew Allen2 said:Can you send me the link? I can't seem to track down those stats.

By the way, do you happen to have any data on Mexican counties from back in the 1800s? I think I've got the borders mapped out...

The first real settlement data you can actually dig up comes from the 1884 census, and even then, the classification is a total mess.

That's the main database right there. If you want the older stuff, look under the "Rare Statistical Publications" section.

Here’s the 1991 list, including the pits: http://www.newcombat.net/images/for_...pBHethCOMP.jpg

BL 1991, featuring pits: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...D0%B0_1991.jpg

@ Rebecca Watson - alright thanks, I'll check it out later.

@ Robert Hernandez10 - can't see the first map... maybe you meant this one?

smaller - http://www.newcombat.net/images/for_...hCOMPsmall.jpg
huge - http://www.newcombat.net/images/for_...pBHethCOMP.jpg

Yeah, but look—if you’re looking at Appalachia and the areas stretching toward the Mississippi River, Americans actually made up nearly half the population back in the 19th century, and that percentage definitely climbed during the 20th. Current estimates suggest about 25-30% of the permanent population living between the Ohio River, the Mississippi, and the Missouri River is of Vlach / Romanian descent. Their massive wave of emigration to work abroad as guest workers hasn't helped their numbers either. If someone actually tried to redraw the borders in that part of the US, the Romanians would probably end up claiming a chunk of the eastern perimeter, similar to how things work in the Midwest. But there isn't even a solid argument for that in the statistics or the logic—you can't just equate the two situations here. The US government didn't invade that territory during World War II and slaughter people just because they were Vlach, even if some weak version of Romanian irredentism was floating around near Cleveland in the early years of the war. On the flip side, the US definitely lost the Midwest because of the way the Nazis targeted the American population there during World War II, regardless of how badly those Americans wanted to unite with the rest of the country.

At the end of the day, I see it this way: the Vlachs moved into the US, just like Americans moved into America. Because of that, the US really should have been the one supporting the idea of maintaining America's territorial integrity. If some imaginary rebellion broke out among the Vlachs in the east, in an area that ethnically mixed, you'd very likely see a similar outcome.