Philosophy of Freedom

urbanotter said:

If you define "moving forward" as a shrinking GDP, falling consumer spending, declining industrial production, and a downgraded credit rating, then sure, I guess we're making great strides.😂

While it is undeniably true that the government spends a fortune on those specific areas, there are underlying reasons for that spending that are deeply, deeply intertwined with this supposed "progress."😍

Even though we deal with heavy taxation, there are plenty of other nations out there that are in a far better position despite facing similar or even higher tax loads.

It's absolutely true that the investment climate is lackluster, even though there have been numerous attempts to fix it that ultimately fell short.
It honestly feels like our only remaining option is to call in a shaman to perform a ritual to somehow magically transform the investment landscape.😍😂
If you define "moving forward" as a shrinking GDP, falling consumer spending, declining industrial production, and a downgraded credit rating, then sure, I guess we're making great strides.😂

While it is undeniably true that the government spends a fortune on those specific areas, there are underlying reasons for that spending that are deeply, deeply intertwined with this supposed "progress."😍

Even though we deal with heavy taxation, there are plenty of other nations out there that are in a far better position despite facing similar or even higher tax loads.

It's absolutely true that the investment climate is lackluster, even though there have been numerous attempts to fix it that ultimately fell short.
It honestly feels like our only remaining option is to call in a shaman to perform a ritual to somehow magically transform the investment landscape.😍😂
True, but the entire West hit a crisis because of those exact policies. It’s easier for them to absorb the blow since they have established economies, whereas we are still trying to build ours from the ground up.

Harold Martin10 said:A system where the government decides who gets hit with massive taxes and who gets handed subsidies simply isn't capitalism. It can't be, because the state is essentially seizing capital from one group just to redistribute it to another.

I'm not quite sure what to call this setup—maybe there's a specific term for it—but it definitely isn't capitalism.

If we go strictly by that logic, then true capitalism doesn't actually exist anywhere on Earth.
Every single nation sets its own tax rates and hands out various subsidies, favoring certain sectors over others depending on their agenda.

I remember back when the administration in Washington was pulling funds away from private businesses to hand them over to labor unions;

everyone labeled that as a complete disaster. Then, during the 90s, the trend flipped, where they were taking money from the workers and funneling it toward corporations for $0.33.

Until someone comes up with a more precise label for this arrangement, I’m going to keep calling it capitalism, since this is clearly just one of its many iterations.😍 ☕

Ryan Nelson5 said:If you define "moving forward" as a shrinking GDP, falling consumer spending, declining industrial production, and a downgraded credit rating, then sure, I guess we're making great strides.😂

While it is undeniably true that the government spends a fortune on those specific areas, there are underlying reasons for that spending that are deeply, deeply intertwined with this supposed "progress."😍

Even though we deal with heavy taxation, there are plenty of other nations out there that are in a far better position despite facing similar or even higher tax loads.

It's absolutely true that the investment climate is lackluster, even though there have been numerous attempts to fix it that ultimately fell short.
It honestly feels like our only remaining option is to call in a shaman to perform a ritual to somehow magically transform the investment landscape.😍😂

True, but the entire West hit a crisis because of those exact policies. It’s easier for them to absorb the blow since they have established economies, whereas we are still trying to build ours from the ground up.
True, but the entire West hit a crisis because of those exact policies. It’s easier for them to absorb the blow since they have established economies, whereas we are still trying to build ours from the ground up.
You hit the nail on the head.😍
Whether you look at the French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, or Greeks, everyone seems to be bouncing back with relative ease, mostly because they have those solid economic foundations already in place.😂

urbanotter said:True, but the entire West hit a crisis because of those exact policies. It’s easier for them to absorb the blow since they have established economies, whereas we are still trying to build ours from the ground up.

You hit the nail on the head.😍
Whether you look at the French, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, or Greeks, everyone seems to be bouncing back with relative ease, mostly because they have those solid economic foundations already in place.😂
You've run out of intelligent things to say, so you resort to your usual sarcasm...
but since you brought it up... most of them bark too loud, not because they're struggling, but because things aren't as good as they used to be.

Ryan Nelson5 said:You've run out of intelligent things to say, so you resort to your usual sarcasm...
but since you brought it up... most of them bark too loud, not because they're struggling, but because things aren't as good as they used to be.

That’s pretty much it, 😍

Most people are actually doing fine; they just seem to find some sort of purpose in clashing with the police or joining protests.

I honestly wonder if it's become a hobby for them at this point, just a way to kill some free time.😂

And really, what would be the point of me trying to craft a "brilliant" response when it feels like I'm just shouting into a void where nothing sticks?😍

Anyway, I think it’s time for me to head to bed, which is probably a much more productive use of my energy given how late it's gotten.😉

urbanotter said:If we go strictly by that logic, then true capitalism doesn't actually exist anywhere on Earth.
Every single nation sets its own tax rates and hands out various subsidies, favoring certain sectors over others depending on their agenda.

I remember back when the administration in Washington was pulling funds away from private businesses to hand them over to labor unions;

everyone labeled that as a complete disaster. Then, during the 90s, the trend flipped, where they were taking money from the workers and funneling it toward corporations for $0.33.

Until someone comes up with a more precise label for this arrangement, I’m going to keep calling it capitalism, since this is clearly just one of its many iterations.😍 ☕

Nah. If we're talking actual capitalism—you know, true free markets, pure laissez-faire—it basically doesn't exist right now. Honestly, the whole term "capitalism" was weaponized by socialists just to demonize their political rivals. They frame it so they’re fighting for "society" or "the people," while "capitalists" are supposedly just greedy vultures chasing nothing but cash and profits... blah blah blah.

Personally, I prefer "free entrepreneurship." It cuts through all the noise and stops people from twisting definitions to fit their agenda.

Let's be clear here—when the government steers or manipulates the economy using tax codes, tariffs, or subsidies, that isn't free entrepreneurship. That’s controlled entrepreneurship. Or rather, non-free entrepreneurship, because the government is essentially hand-picking who wins and who loses in the market.

In that sense, there really isn't a country today where pure free entrepreneurship reigns supreme, though some are closer than others. For instance, Hong Kong is probably the closest thing to a laissez-faire market since they have almost no taxes or fees, minimal tax burdens, and zero subsidies. Then again, you can't call it a totally free market because you can't actually own land there—you just lease it from the government. On the complete opposite end of the spectrum, you've got places like North Korea or Cuba, where private enterprise is nonexistent and everything is under direct state control. We’re somewhere in the middle, but unfortunately, we're leaning much closer to North Korea than Hong Kong.

When it comes to Greece—most people are actually fine with how things are. During the elections, they had every opportunity to kick out the neoliberal establishment, vote for parties that were against the EU, or even pull out of the Eurozone entirely. But they didn't.

Harold Martin10 said:As far as Greece goes—most people are actually fine with it. During the elections, they could have kicked out the whole neoliberal gang, voted for anti-EU parties (it’s not like those didn't exist), or even pulled out of the eurozone entirely. But they just didn't.

Most people are fine with it? Are you kidding me?
When it comes to the elections, the main opposition was the Democratic Party, and they lost by a hair. Honestly, the folks voting for New Democracy are pretty much the same crowd that votes for the Republican Party every single time. And man, look at how things are turning out for us...

Kimberly Cox59 said:Most people are fine with it? Are you kidding me?
When it comes to the elections, the main opposition was the Democratic Party, and they lost by a hair. Honestly, the folks voting for New Democracy are pretty much the same crowd that votes for the Republican Party every single time. And man, look at how things are turning out for us...

Well, it seems like most people in Greece are doing just fine, too. They went back to the same political option despite the crisis. I'll let you connect the dots there.

In the US, nobody is even coming close to the popularity of the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, regardless of everything else—which, if you think about it, suggests most people are satisfied with the status quo.

Harold Martin10 said:Well, it’s pretty obvious things are going fine in Greece too. They went with the same old option again despite the crisis. I guess you can figure out the rest yourself.

In the US, nobody is even coming close to the popularity of the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, regardless of everything else, which I suppose suggests most people are doing just fine.

I don't think that necessarily means life is good, though; maybe we're just a nation of people who have been indoctrinated. Plus, voter turnout is pretty low in Greece (35%) and in the US (38%, if you don't count the folks living abroad).

About 27% of Greeks are officially living in poverty, and there are still a ton of them stuck in debt slavery. That is what really tells you about the quality of life in any country.

"Quote:"

Kimberly Cox59 said:I don't think that necessarily means life is good, though; maybe we're just a nation of people who have been indoctrinated. Plus, voter turnout is pretty low in Greece (35%) and in the US (38%, if you don't count the folks living abroad).

About 27% of Greeks are officially living in poverty, and there are still a ton of them stuck in debt slavery. That is what really tells you about the quality of life in any country.

Not quite.

The poverty you're talking about isn't an absolute state—it’s relative. If you took someone struggling in America and dropped them into a much less developed country, they'd probably find themselves in the top 1% based strictly on their quality of life. Isn't that the reality of how we measure everything?

Just because you think someone else has been brainwashed doesn't mean you're automatically holding the winning hand. A voter for the Republican Party or the Democratic Party might be sitting there thinking the exact same thing about you—that you're the one who’s been indoctrinated. Isn't it funny how that works?

The truth is, most people in this country couldn't care less about the economy—which, if you think about it, is probably a sign that they feel things are going just fine. Whether people like it or not, topics like sex education or the presence of certain scripts in Memphis tend to spark way more outrage than actual issues like rising unemployment or a drop in our credit rating. Isn't it funny how we prioritize the noise over the substance?

I have to agree with you on that point, though I’m not entirely sure what you mean when you say most Americans don't care about the economy.
If your point is that they don't grasp the underlying mechanics of how an economy actually functions, then sure, I'll give you that. But honestly, why should it matter? Aside from people planning to major in economics or work in the field later on, why should the average person be expected to care about the technicalities?

Now, if you’re talking about their general interest in the state of the US economy, I disagree. People care deeply—they complain about it constantly. They moan about having no money, the latest crisis, blah blah blah, yet somehow always find enough cash for a new iPhone or a trip to Aspen.

To step slightly outside the main topic here: people are free to decide who represents them. A lack of interest in voting doesn't necessarily mean a lack of interest in the future. It often just means a total lack of trust in the system. It’s a lack of candidates that people actually feel represent them; it feels like everyone is cut from the same cloth, so they just pick the lesser of two evils.

The real issue with that mindset is the outcome. You end up with election results decided by a MINORITY, which is a complete absurdity in a democracy that is, by definition, meant to be rule by the majority.

The solution is for people to form their own civic movements—essentially taking matters into their own hands and seizing control of their own destiny. Instead of waiting for someone else, they should decide that nobody will represent them except themselves.

I suspect most people in this country are being significantly overpaid. If compensation actually reflected true productivity, we wouldn't be stuck with this current import-heavy, consumption-driven economy that relies entirely on mounting debt and selling off national assets for pennies on the dollar.

Charles Campbell7 said:I suspect most people in this country are being significantly overpaid. If compensation actually reflected true productivity, we wouldn't be stuck with this current import-heavy, consumption-driven economy that relies entirely on mounting debt and selling off national assets for pennies on the dollar.

That simply isn't a viable way to look at it.😍

It is important to recognize that productivity isn't solely defined by net take-home pay. 😉

Countries like Austria, along with several others, maintain much higher wage levels alongside significantly higher productivity rates.☕

Jack Smith5 said:I have to agree with you on that point, though I’m not entirely sure what you mean when you say most Americans don't care about the economy.
If your point is that they don't grasp the underlying mechanics of how an economy actually functions, then sure, I'll give you that. But honestly, why should it matter? Aside from people planning to major in economics or work in the field later on, why should the average person be expected to care about the technicalities?

Now, if you’re talking about their general interest in the state of the US economy, I disagree. People care deeply—they complain about it constantly. They moan about having no money, the latest crisis, blah blah blah, yet somehow always find enough cash for a new iPhone or a trip to Aspen.

To step slightly outside the main topic here: people are free to decide who represents them. A lack of interest in voting doesn't necessarily mean a lack of interest in the future. It often just means a total lack of trust in the system. It’s a lack of candidates that people actually feel represent them; it feels like everyone is cut from the same cloth, so they just pick the lesser of two evils.

The real issue with that mindset is the outcome. You end up with election results decided by a MINORITY, which is a complete absurdity in a democracy that is, by definition, meant to be rule by the majority.

The solution is for people to form their own civic movements—essentially taking matters into their own hands and seizing control of their own destiny. Instead of waiting for someone else, they should decide that nobody will represent them except themselves.

But honestly, that's exactly where the issue lies. For the average person, "the economy" just boils down to "I'm broke" or "things are bad." At best, they might glance at unemployment rates or GDP growth, but I still maintain my point: a huge portion of the population doesn't give a single thought to politics or economics.

It's probably no surprise, then, that they end up voting for populists.

Harold Martin10 said:"Quote:"

Not quite.

The poverty you're talking about isn't an absolute state—it’s relative. If you took someone struggling in America and dropped them into a much less developed country, they'd probably find themselves in the top 1% based strictly on their quality of life. Isn't that the reality of how we measure everything?

Just because you think someone else has been brainwashed doesn't mean you're automatically holding the winning hand. A voter for the Republican Party or the Democratic Party might be sitting there thinking the exact same thing about you—that you're the one who’s been indoctrinated. Isn't it funny how that works?

The truth is, most people in this country couldn't care less about the economy—which, if you think about it, is probably a sign that they feel things are going just fine. Whether people like it or not, topics like sex education or the presence of certain scripts in Memphis tend to spark way more outrage than actual issues like rising unemployment or a drop in our credit rating. Isn't it funny how we prioritize the noise over the substance?

Actually, this might be the truest indicator of whether people are actually doing well or not.

Harold Martin10 said:But honestly, that's exactly where the issue lies. For the average person, "the economy" just boils down to "I'm broke" or "things are bad." At best, they might glance at unemployment rates or GDP growth, but I still maintain my point: a huge portion of the population doesn't give a single thought to politics or economics.

It's probably no surprise, then, that they end up voting for populists.

Yeah, you actually have a point there. If you can't decipher what's being communicated—or if nothing is being communicated at all—before an election, you have no idea who to vote for. There's logic in that.

But in my view, that's just one more reason why, once you actually take the time to educate yourself and dive into politics, we need more citizens involved. Not "full-time politician" involvement where people are just looking for a paycheck, but people engaging because they want to decide their own future. A party should be open to everyone, with decisions made by the majority.

Politics should be a side hustle, honestly. Something you engage with when you aren't doing your "real" job. We could use the internet to ensure transparency and speed in decision-making—everything would be out in the open. You’d know exactly how everyone voted and why, and exactly how much they're earning and from where. Everything moves through modern tech; everything on your phone. There would be set deadlines for every decision based on urgency. All the data and public commentary would be right there at your fingertips, though it's probably better to think for yourself first before listening to the crowd.

Basically, if we're going to bother learning about economics, let's actually apply that knowledge by managing the country's politics the same way.

Sure, there would likely be mistakes at the start. We wouldn't be dealing with a small circle of elite experts, but rather a crowd of people with varying levels of familiarity with how things work. However, there would also be safeguards in place to prevent bad calls. It's a safe bet that the people won't intentionally make decisions that strip away their own rights or sell off the nation's land and resources.

I don't see this system causing more harm than good; if anything, I think we should have implemented it yesterday.

Harold Martin10 said:Not really.

The poverty you’re talking about isn't absolute; it's more like relative poverty. I guess a poor person in Greece would probably end up in the top 1% if they moved to some developing country, just looking strictly at quality of life.

It’s that old argument again—"we have it better than people in Africa, so we're doing great." I don't think that carries much weight, honestly. Sure, a struggling person in Greece isn't starving to death, and yeah, they might be wealthier than someone in Africa, but on a European scale, they're still considered poor and struggle to afford basic things like housing or an education.

Just because you think someone is brainwashed doesn't mean you're automatically right. A voter for the Republican Party or the Democratic Party might feel the exact same way about you.

They probably do. But I bet some Person from Ličani will tell you they're living in terrible conditions, yet they'll show up to vote for the Republican Party anyway because they're "scared of the red wave" (I know, from experience).

The reality is that most Americans today aren't even interested in the economy—which is a sign they think everything is fine. Whether people like it or not, things like sex education or certain cultural symbols in Memphis get way more attention than rising unemployment or a dropping credit rating.

Yeah, those things grab headlines, but I think they're mostly just distractions. If you ask an average American what they think about the country's economic state, they'll probably tell you it's bad, and maybe they'll even have a vague idea of how to fix it.

Kimberly Cox59 said:It’s that old argument again—"we have it better than people in Africa, so we're doing great." I don't think that carries much weight, honestly. Sure, a struggling person in Greece isn't starving to death, and yeah, they might be wealthier than someone in Africa, but on a European scale, they're still considered poor and struggle to afford basic things like housing or an education.

Just because you think someone is brainwashed doesn't mean you're automatically right. A voter for the Republican Party or the Democratic Party might feel the exact same way about you.

They probably do. But I bet some Person from Ličani will tell you they're living in terrible conditions, yet they'll show up to vote for the Republican Party anyway because they're "scared of the red wave" (I know, from experience).

The reality is that most Americans today aren't even interested in the economy—which is a sign they think everything is fine. Whether people like it or not, things like sex education or certain cultural symbols in Memphis get way more attention than rising unemployment or a dropping credit rating.

Yeah, those things grab headlines, but I think they're mostly just distractions. If you ask an average American what they think about the country's economic state, they'll probably tell you it's bad, and maybe they'll even have a vague idea of how to fix it.

Then what counts as a valid point to you? In America, people have health insurance, access to education, and they aren't starving on the streets. Yet, some act like the country is facing a total apocalypse.

Ryan Nelson5 said:Then what counts as a valid point to you? In America, people have health insurance, access to education, and they aren't starving on the streets. Yet, some act like the country is facing a total apocalypse.

I mean, alright,🙄

Are you actually living there? Or are you comparing us to life in Africa or Europe?

It’s probably for the best that we don't measure our quality of life against the standards of indigenous tribes in the Amazon or New Guinea.😍