Philosophy of Freedom

urbanotter said:I mean, alright,🙄

Are you actually living there? Or are you comparing us to life in Africa or Europe?

It’s probably for the best that we don't measure our quality of life against the standards of indigenous tribes in the Amazon or New Guinea.😍

And why shouldn't we be compared to the rest of the world?

Quoting an interesting point from the OP:
"Since you own your lives, you are responsible for them. You aren't renting your existence from others who demand obedience, nor are you a slave to those demanding sacrifice. You pick your own goals based on your own values. Both success and failure are just necessary fuel for learning and personal growth. Actions taken on behalf of others—or by others on your behalf—are only moral if they’re built on voluntary, mutual consent, because morality can only exist where there is freedom of choice."

Owners of our lives? Total nonsense. Life just *is*, and it keeps going until it doesn't. Responsibility for your own life? Sure, sounds great on paper, but did the person who wrote that actually consider the heavy lifting involved in being free? Because responsibility stems from that freedom, not just from existing. If you want to wrap your head around the burden of liberty and the weight of responsibility, go read "The Brothers Karamazov," specifically the chapters "The Brothers Karamazov" and "The Grand Inquisitor."

People have endless opinions on time. I lean toward one view: the past and the future don't actually exist. The past is gone—it was just a previous version of the present—and the future hasn't shown up yet. All we really have is the now. That's the core of what it means to exist. Then you've got the whole headache of relativity regarding time, space, and the mass of matter.

On the political side, individualism and freedom are inseparable. Any form of collectivism is just a fancy way of restricting individual liberty. You can't claim collective freedom without stepping all over the rights of the individual.

Ryan Nelson5 said:And why shouldn't we be compared to the rest of the world?

It’s just incredibly difficult, if not practically impossible, to draw meaningful comparisons between people from such vastly different cultural spheres and civilizations.☕

urbanotter said:It’s just incredibly difficult, if not practically impossible, to draw meaningful comparisons between people from such vastly different cultural spheres and civilizations.☕

Why would it be hard to compare people on a global scale, at least regarding material wealth? An African person is just as much a human being as an American, yet the American likely believes they are closer to God, allowing them to complain about hunger while clutching a smartphone.

Ryan Nelson5 said:Why would it be hard to compare people on a global scale, at least regarding material wealth? An African person is just as much a human being as an American, yet the American likely believes they are closer to God, allowing them to complain about hunger while clutching a smartphone.

The truth is, the benchmarks and priorities of different civilizations simply don't align.

Even two individuals within the same cultural sphere rarely share the exact same values; for one person, family might be everything, while another focuses entirely on education and career milestones, and a third might prioritize physical possessions.
I often think about how Tesla and Edison worked together, yet their life goals and driving forces were worlds apart.

That is precisely why trying to "import" democracy or Western material standards into the Islamic world is such a struggle—just as a native person from New Guinea wouldn't have the same fundamental needs or outlook on life as someone raised in Western culture.

urbanotter said:The truth is, the benchmarks and priorities of different civilizations simply don't align.

Even two individuals within the same cultural sphere rarely share the exact same values; for one person, family might be everything, while another focuses entirely on education and career milestones, and a third might prioritize physical possessions.
I often think about how Tesla and Edison worked together, yet their life goals and driving forces were worlds apart.

That is precisely why trying to "import" democracy or Western material standards into the Islamic world is such a struggle—just as a native person from New Guinea wouldn't have the same fundamental needs or outlook on life as someone raised in Western culture.

You've crafted quite a neat justification for double standards.🙂
But we don't even need to discuss other civilizations; we can look at different generations within the same country. For instance, my father's and uncles' generation was born after WWII. They survived actual famine, not this modern version where everyone has a smartphone in hand. Their perspective on reality is far more grounded than that of the younger generations.

Ryan Nelson5 said:You've crafted quite a neat justification for double standards.🙂
But we don't even need to discuss other civilizations; we can look at different generations within the same country. For instance, my father's and uncles' generation was born after WWII. They survived actual famine, not this modern version where everyone has a smartphone in hand. Their perspective on reality is far more grounded than that of the younger generations.

That isn't an excuse; it's just stating facts and common knowledge.

It’s perfectly natural to choose a circle of friends, or even a spouse, based on shared values and similar priorities.

The divergence in priorities and standards between two different civilizations is clearly reflected in their legal frameworks and social customs.

In the West, we operate under Roman or Anglo-Saxon legal traditions, whereas certain Islamic nations follow Sharia law, not to mention the vast differences in their daily customs and moral compasses.🙂

splićo said:So what counts as a real argument for you? In America, people have health insurance, they can go to school, they aren't living on the streets, and they aren't starving. Yet, everyone acts like the government is bringing about the end of the world.

I guess a real argument would actually be lowering the poverty rate and raising the standard of living. This whole "it’s better than being in a third-world country" logic just feels pretty senseless to me. I mean, if one poor American lived in the Congo, they'd probably be considered rich. But they don't live there; they live in the US, where they're struggling and don't have access to the same things the wealthy classes do.
For example:
- healthcare is inefficient and just poorly organized
- college is free, sure, but even then you're stuck buying textbooks regardless of how much money your family actually has
- over the last 11 months, 1,200 people have been laid off
- more and more people are showing up at food banks

Those are signs of poverty. But hey, maybe I'll just move to Africa and live like royalty. 🤷

urbanotter said:That isn't an excuse; it's just stating facts and common knowledge.

It’s perfectly natural to choose a circle of friends, or even a spouse, based on shared values and similar priorities.

The divergence in priorities and standards between two different civilizations is clearly reflected in their legal frameworks and social customs.

In the West, we operate under Roman or Anglo-Saxon legal traditions, whereas certain Islamic nations follow Sharia law, not to mention the vast differences in their daily customs and moral compasses.🙂

What do laws and customs have to do with anything here? For some people, living on a single dollar a day is perfectly fine, yet you claim it isn't enough just because you've defined your own standards through your customs and laws. He has no reason to compare himself to you.

Ryan Nelson5 said:What do laws and customs have to do with anything here? For some people, living on a single dollar a day is perfectly fine, yet you claim it isn't enough just because you've defined your own standards through your customs and laws. He has no reason to compare himself to you.

Look, seriously,
having a smartphone in your hand isn't actually much more than having a dollar a day 😁
so why is that?
because back in the day, the average American had:
a steady job, a real paycheck, healthcare, a solid education, a pension,
a vacation home, an apartment, a house, savings in dollars,
they traveled, ...
they basically had paradise on earth.
It's priceless!

Buy, sell, trade, lend.
Offer, yield, impose.
Credit, sell, profit.
We’ve all been catapulted and tossed headlong into this celestial vortex. That is the kind of cataclysm currently ravaging our pathetic little lives..

To even begin discussing a philosophy of freedom, we first have to untangle this knot.

Charles Lopez3 said:Look, seriously,
having a smartphone in your hand isn't actually much more than having a dollar a day 😁
so why is that?
because back in the day, the average American had:
a steady job, a real paycheck, healthcare, a solid education, a pension,
a vacation home, an apartment, a house, savings in dollars,
they traveled, ...
they basically had paradise on earth.
It's priceless!

That paradise was built on capitalist money. Once the cash stopped flowing, paradise collapsed... ☕

Ryan Nelson5 said:That paradise was built on capitalist money. Once the cash stopped flowing, paradise collapsed... ☕

Good grief, where on earth did you pick up an idea like that?

It sounds like you must have attended some very specific kind of school.😍

urbanotter said:The truth is, the benchmarks and priorities of different civilizations simply don't align.

Even two individuals within the same cultural sphere rarely share the exact same values; for one person, family might be everything, while another focuses entirely on education and career milestones, and a third might prioritize physical possessions.
I often think about how Tesla and Edison worked together, yet their life goals and driving forces were worlds apart.

That is precisely why trying to "import" democracy or Western material standards into the Islamic world is such a struggle—just as a native person from New Guinea wouldn't have the same fundamental needs or outlook on life as someone raised in Western culture.

Look, just because different parts of the world have their own cultural quirks—their own little value systems, if you will—doesn't mean you can't compare them. Not when you're looking at material stuff like disposable income and all that. I mean, why would the fact that someone doesn't obsess over their bank account suddenly make comparing them useless? It wouldn't, right?

Even two people from the exact same social circle won't have identical priorities. One might be all about family, another's chasing an education or career milestones, and someone else is just focused on the material side of things.

I'm pretty sure the priorities and standards you're talking about overlap for plenty of actual, living people. But again—that doesn't change the fact that comparison is still possible and actually quite useful.

That's why it's such a struggle to "import" democracy and material standards into the Islamic world—kind of like how an indigenous person from New Guinea isn't going to have the same life goals as someone from Western culture. They're just playing a different game.

And that brings us straight to the massive headache here.

First off, this whole idea of an "Islamic world"—this Huntingtonian "clash of civilizations" nonsense—is basically a myth. Just look at Turkey.

Second, the real trouble with trying to "install" democracy usually comes down to how it's being done. Let's be real: chauvinism and, ultimately, bombs... they aren't exactly the most effective tools in the shed.

I’m not sure if anyone else is even looking for this now that there isn't a dedicated thread starter, but honestly, I just feel like sharing it—it feels like a little bit of freedom to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

It’s pretty much that concept I was rambling about a while back...

Kimberly Cox59 said:I’m not sure if anyone else is even looking for this now that there isn't a dedicated thread starter, but honestly, I just feel like sharing it—it feels like a little bit of freedom to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

It’s pretty much that concept I was rambling about a while back...

That’s exactly why you’re such a commie, 😁

(didn't realize people from MASA were showing up here 😛 though I guess it just happens automatically given certain things, haha)

lonecobra2 said:That’s just what happens when you're a total communist 😁

(I didn't realize people from MASA were hanging out here 😛 though I guess it happens automatically because of certain things, hehe)

Oh, sure, I'm just an 'outside collaborator' 😁
But yeah, you caught me—it's definitely because I'm a communist 😠

Kimberly Cox59 said:Oh, sure, I'm just an 'outside collaborator' 😁
But yeah, you caught me—it's definitely because I'm a communist 😠

You can slap a cute little label on it like "gift economy" if you want, but honestly? It doesn't change anything—it's clearly just communism. 😛😁