Student-teacher dynamics vs. parent-teacher dynamics

Jacob Lopez2 said:There isn't a single mention of anyone getting an A; all you hear about are the Fs and Ds, which represent total ignorance—an ignorance largely driven by incompetent instructors, because you could pass with a D just by sitting in class and listening. Those of us who actually went through the American school system know exactly how this works, so...

I mean, obviously everyone who finished school has some level of experience; it would be pretty weird if they didn't.
but it seems like a lot of people have developed a bit of selective amnesia along with that experience.

thank goodness that every single student is perpetually attentive during class, shows up religiously, always finishes their homework, and possesses endless talent for every subject, so any given "failure" like an F or a D is exclusively and solely the fault of the teachers:clap:

good grief, what a silly little joke this is, this supposed "anecdote" or whatever you want to call it.😵🤦

urbantinker8 said:I mean, obviously everyone who finished school has some level of experience; it would be pretty weird if they didn't.
but it seems like a lot of people have developed a bit of selective amnesia along with that experience.

thank goodness that every single student is perpetually attentive during class, shows up religiously, always finishes their homework, and possesses endless talent for every subject, so any given "failure" like an F or a D is exclusively and solely the fault of the teachers:clap:

good grief, what a silly little joke this is, this supposed "anecdote" or whatever you want to call it.😵🤦

In this story, the boy is quiet, obedient, and well-behaved, so his failing grades have nothing to do with his conduct.
And if certain students are constantly disruptive, then yes, I believe that does involve the teacher, provided the child doesn't have some other underlying diagnosis—in which case specialists and parents need to step in (school psychologists and counselors aren't just there to check boxes, after all). I remember quite clearly that even the "troublemakers" could manage a passing grade if they had a teacher who knew how to present the material in an engaging and understandable way. Failing grades are extreme outliers, especially in elementary school.

Man, I honestly can’t for the life of me remember a single classmate who ever failed a grade twice—not even one where the geography teacher had to ask them basic questions about the cardinal directions just to let them pass.
It took him way too long to figure out which way was north or east.
I was just a kid back then, but if there had been some kind of underlying issue, I think I would have noticed.
He just wasn't really feeling school, though he was never loud or disrespectful about it.

Jacob Lopez2 said:In this story, the boy is quiet, obedient, and well-behaved, so his failing grades have nothing to do with his conduct.
And if certain students are constantly disruptive, then yes, I believe that does involve the teacher, provided the child doesn't have some other underlying diagnosis—in which case specialists and parents need to step in (school psychologists and counselors aren't just there to check boxes, after all). I remember quite clearly that even the "troublemakers" could manage a passing grade if they had a teacher who knew how to present the material in an engaging and understandable way. Failing grades are extreme outliers, especially in elementary school.

Calling it a "story" is kind of silly.
Are failing grades really just outliers?😕
Do you honestly think the support staff doesn't get involved in these situations?
And do you really believe parents always cooperate with the school?
Do you seriously think just being "engaging" is enough to ensure a child gets at least a C?
Is it your belief that every single teacher and every bit of curriculum always has to be every student's favorite thing to stay afloat?

Wait, so your kids don't have any units in their classes? 🤔

rowdypanther12 said:Man, I honestly can’t for the life of me remember a single classmate who ever failed a grade twice—not even one where the geography teacher had to ask them basic questions about the cardinal directions just to let them pass.
It took him way too long to figure out which way was north or east.
I was just a kid back then, but if there had been some kind of underlying issue, I think I would have noticed.
He just wasn't really feeling school, though he was never loud or disrespectful about it.

so, yeah, clearly not everyone suffers from memory loss.😁
either that teacher was just such a dull person that she couldn't manage to teach a poor student the compass points, despite the fact that he was trying really, really hard to memorize them, or maybe she was just... uninspiring. it's possible.🤦

there are plenty of quiet students out there who don't have any documented disabilities and aren't causing any trouble at all, but they're just disinterested or perhaps just totally lacking a knack for certain subjects.
with enough extra effort—from both the kids and the teachers—they usually scrape by with a passing grade, but saying that's the teacher's failure is, in my opinion, absolutely and definitely not true.
let's not talk nonsense.☕

I don't have amnesia. In both my elementary and middle school years, these issues were rare exceptions, and the only student I ever saw struggling significantly with learning was someone who required a specialized individual education plan.

Allow me to state that my own experience has been quite different.

And who exactly was talking about a teacher's failure? If a parent hasn't even mastered basic geography themselves, why on earth should they be expected to teach their child anything at all? That is precisely the point.

urbantinker8: I was thinking about that point made by Quincy, and I suppose there’s some merit to it, though it feels like we might be oversimplifying things just a little bit, if that makes sense. It’s funny how these discussions tend to drift toward the obvious, but then you realize the nuances are actually where all the messy parts live. I guess I’m just wondering if we aren't overlooking the broader context of how these systems interact with everyday life here in the States. Maybe it isn't as black and white as it seems at first glance, and perhaps we should probably sit with the uncertainty for a moment before jumping to any final conclusions. It’s a lot to process, I suppose.

Jacob Lopez2 said:I don't have amnesia. In both my elementary and middle school years, these issues were rare exceptions, and the only student I ever saw struggling significantly with learning was someone who required a specialized individual education plan.

Allow me to state that my own experience has been quite different.

And who exactly was talking about a teacher's failure? If a parent hasn't even mastered basic geography themselves, why on earth should they be expected to teach their child anything at all? That is precisely the point.

So, there’s this rumor going around that the professor is actually the one to blame for the failing grades. I guess it’s just one of those things people are whispering about, though I'm not entirely sure how much truth is behind it. Maybe he is, or maybe it's just the usual talk.
Well, I guess even Salih is saying the same thing now, and since you actually signed off on it, you might as well own it.🤷

Even if your experience was a bit different from mine, I suppose you have to wonder whether the professors were actually the ones at fault for those sporadic failing grades. Maybe they weren't intentionally being difficult, but I guess there's always that possibility that the instruction just wasn't hitting the mark for everyone.
I’m not exactly saying their parents are the ones to blame here, though I suppose there's always that element to consider, but I do feel like any average kid should probably realize that sometimes you just have to put in the work and grind it out to get the grade you're aiming for. It shouldn't really matter if the professor is one of those captivating lecturers or just someone incredibly dry, or if the subject itself feels like a breeze or an absolute uphill battle; you just kind of have to sit there, stay focused, and earn that GPA.
I guess you could say the curriculum is pretty much tailored to hit that middle ground, though I suppose whether that’s actually a good thing or not is a bit of a toss-up. It seems designed to cater to the average student, maybe even a little too closely, if you ask me.

I honestly can't help myself—it makes my skin crawl whenever I hear people claiming a bad student is actually the fault of a bad teacher. 😱 I remember reading a statement just like that from a famous American pop star once.

Look, I’m a teacher. I deal with the superstars, the kids who just get by, and the ones who struggle through everything. If someone had the nerve to tell me that I’m the reason one of my students failed a class—as if being a "better" teacher would somehow magically force knowledge into their head so they wouldn't get an F 👍—I’d feel like they just spat directly in my face.

EDIT: Okay, maybe the spitting in the face thing sounds a little dramatic😁 after how my day actually went yesterday. I spent 11 hours straight at school, and five of those were dedicated entirely to one single student. I was coaching her, cheering her on during a big competition, sweating bullets, and practically having a heart attack from the sheer nerves of it all. I was right there with her, giving her hugs, wiping away her tears, and trying to keep us both steady.
And then I finally walk through the door to my own kids—who were waiting for me in their pajamas because I hadn't even seen them all day.

Back in my middle school class, there was this girl who, by the end of eighth grade, actually failed her geography quiz because she pointed to Washington, D.C. when asked to locate the US on a map. Got an F.

Then there was another girl who, after trying several times, couldn't tell you where human organs go or what they even do.

And we had this guy who, all the way through eighth grade, couldn't read more than 15 words per minute. Our teacher—who later became an English professor—actually tracked his reading speed at the start and end of every year.

When it came to literature, grammar, or geometry in eighth grade, most kids struggled. They hit that wall where just sitting in class or pretending they read the material before a test wasn't enough to scrape by with a C.

And those weren't just isolated cases from one class—it was across different subjects and different teachers. No one was properly supported; everyone was just checked out, both the kids and their parents.

Look, I'm not a teacher or a parent, but I work with kids. And whenever a parent tells me, "You know, he has this specific teacher," it almost always turns out that the teacher isn't the reason for the bad grades. Especially in middle school.

I really like this thread. I have three kids—two are in college right now and one is finishing up high school—and I’ve never once blamed a teacher in front of them. It honestly baffles me when parents drop their kids off at school expecting some kind of miracle, as if a teacher can just wave a magic wand and force knowledge into their heads. Building work ethic and basic discipline is foundational stuff, yet it seems to be completely ignored by some folks. I have a lot of respect for teachers these days; I don't think I could handle being in their shoes with how some modern parents act and what they demand.

urbantinker8 said:urbantinker8: I was thinking about that point made by Quincy, and I suppose there’s some merit to it, though it feels like we might be oversimplifying things just a little bit, if that makes sense. It’s funny how these discussions tend to drift toward the obvious, but then you realize the nuances are actually where all the messy parts live. I guess I’m just wondering if we aren't overlooking the broader context of how these systems interact with everyday life here in the States. Maybe it isn't as black and white as it seems at first glance, and perhaps we should probably sit with the uncertainty for a moment before jumping to any final conclusions. It’s a lot to process, I suppose.

So, there’s this rumor going around that the professor is actually the one to blame for the failing grades. I guess it’s just one of those things people are whispering about, though I'm not entirely sure how much truth is behind it. Maybe he is, or maybe it's just the usual talk.
Well, I guess even Salih is saying the same thing now, and since you actually signed off on it, you might as well own it.🤷

Even if your experience was a bit different from mine, I suppose you have to wonder whether the professors were actually the ones at fault for those sporadic failing grades. Maybe they weren't intentionally being difficult, but I guess there's always that possibility that the instruction just wasn't hitting the mark for everyone.
I’m not exactly saying their parents are the ones to blame here, though I suppose there's always that element to consider, but I do feel like any average kid should probably realize that sometimes you just have to put in the work and grind it out to get the grade you're aiming for. It shouldn't really matter if the professor is one of those captivating lecturers or just someone incredibly dry, or if the subject itself feels like a breeze or an absolute uphill battle; you just kind of have to sit there, stay focused, and earn that GPA.
I guess you could say the curriculum is pretty much tailored to hit that middle ground, though I suppose whether that’s actually a good thing or not is a bit of a toss-up. It seems designed to cater to the average student, maybe even a little too closely, if you ask me.

That is simply untrue. Nowhere in the meeting was it explicitly stated that the teacher is to blame for failing grades; rather, it was noted that their role is to teach the specific material, which is not the responsibility of the parents, as they likely lack the specialized knowledge required. You have all latched onto something that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and are speaking in extremes about "problem students." In this story, the child is not the problem. Furthermore, if you truly believe that teaching isn't your job, then you have completely misunderstood the profession. No one discussed the range of grades, but if a student is failing everything, that is a deeper issue to be resolved on multiple levels—it isn't solved by a single teacher, nor is it likely solved solely by parents. One ought to know that.
But of course, it is easiest to just label a child lazy or uninterested without ever digging into the root of the problem.

And please, start reading posts with actual comprehension instead of commenting on a single word that doesn't represent the whole context.

I don't work in education, but I do work at a corporation where I train new employees. Some grasp things instantly, while others require a different approach. Sometimes I start explaining as if the person already knows certain fundamentals, but then I have to backtrack. I always revise my methods based on my experience with each individual. Unless there is an underlying issue with an employee, I view their lack of knowledge as a personal failure on my part and attempt to fix it by adjusting my training. If a person is generally "problematic," then HR, the Director, and management get involved... (not the parents 😉), and in the end, we are all evaluated and validated—subordinates, superiors, and colleagues alike.

Like I said before, this whole argument is just nonsense.
And honestly, the text says exactly what you’re claiming it doesn’t.
I work with my students on an individual basis—believe it or not—so it really gets under my skin when people start rambling about "obedient herds" and all that other typical nonsense.
I wasn't talking about problematic kids at all, but rather those quiet, unmotivated, or untalented types who struggle so much that they barely scrape by with a D, despite both our best efforts. And if a parent ever actually had the nerve to come to me claiming that their kid's failing grade was somehow my personal failure, I think I'd handle them pretty bluntly.
Luckily, most don't show up, probably because they're realistic about their child's abilities, though that doesn't stop them from trying to throw shade through the homeroom teacher to imply I should be doing things differently.🙄
Besides, adult education and professional development have absolutely nothing to do with teaching children; the level of intellectual and emotional maturity is different, the motivation is entirely different, and you aren't dealing with a grown adult with dyslexia or ADHD who needs a customized curriculum, nor are you dealing with someone who already has a specific career background. Plus, you aren't managing classes of thirty kids, and you don't have parents hovering over everything.🤣
So, I wouldn't compare the two under any circumstances.
(I've worked with adults myself, but there's really no connection to schooling, I suppose.)

So what exactly is the issue here? You are doing things the right way, but that certainly doesn't mean the rest of the American education system is functioning correctly. Why on earth do you feel personally attacked when people critique the system? True progress requires self-reflection if we ever want to see actual improvement. While things might be better than they used to be, don't for one second assume we have reached some kind of peak performance.
We need constructive dialogue instead of this immediate, knee-jerk defensiveness.

Jacob Lopez2 said:So what exactly is the issue here? You are doing things the right way, but that certainly doesn't mean the rest of the American education system is functioning correctly. Why on earth do you feel personally attacked when people critique the system? True progress requires self-reflection if we ever want to see actual improvement. While things might be better than they used to be, don't for one second assume we have reached some kind of peak performance.
We need constructive dialogue instead of this immediate, knee-jerk defensiveness.

Maybe it's just because I've heard so much complaining about how broken the system is—even though, I suppose, I'm part of that very same system myself.
Actually, I think the system is pretty decent when you consider what modern parents and their kids really deserve.
If there's one thing that needs fixing, it's probably just the funding for school supplies and facilities; otherwise, everything seems to run quite smoothly.
Of course, you'll always run into some bad teachers here and there, but I feel like it's a real shame that people tend to focus solely on them and lump them in with the entire educational structure.
And honestly, the recent curriculum changes feel like they were mostly just for show for the parents, though I suspect the people who should actually be aware of that aren't really paying attention.

To be honest, I really don't get why everyone is getting so worked up about this.

The whole point of the story is that American teachers are actually incredible. In our schools, more than 80% of elementary students are finishing their grades with top marks, and that’s really a testament to the hard work of the educators. 🥳

wanderingbadger44 said:To be honest, I really don't get why everyone is getting so worked up about this.

The whole point of the story is that American teachers are actually incredible. In our schools, more than 80% of elementary students are finishing their grades with top marks, and that’s really a testament to the hard work of the educators. 🥳

and that point you made, too.🤣🤣

thank god and all the saints above that I managed to escape elementary school on time🙏

You’ve actually got me pretty curious with this whole idea that failing grades are some kind of rare exception.
Do any of your kids' classes ever actually see an F or a D?
My daughter is starting second grade, and seeing ones, twos, or threes on her tests isn't exactly a shocker. Some kids get them all the time, some occasionally, and some never see one at all.
I can't really compare this to when I was in school since we didn't use letter grades back then, but from what I can tell, the ratio of struggling students to average and high-achievers seems pretty much the same.

urbantinker8 said:

urbantinker8 I can't even begin to deal with this right now. Seriously. See, I guess not everyone’s suffering from total amnesia after all.😁 Is this teacher seriously that clueless? Like, how do you fail to teach a student the cardinal directions when they’re actually putting in the work to learn them? Honestly, she was just incredibly boring. Period.🤦 You’ve got all these quiet kids in class who aren't exactly causing a scene or acting out, so they don't even show up on the radar as "troublemakers." But honestly? They just straight-up don't care. They’re either totally checked out or they just lack any kind of natural knack for certain subjects. It’s like they're just physically present while their brains are miles away. Even after all that extra grinding—from both the kids and the teachers—they end up scraping by with a D. But let’s be real: calling that a failure on the professor's part? Absolutely not. Not even close. Cut the crap. Stop talking nonsense.☕

Sign, I've got those too. They just WON'T and they DON'T WANT to.

wanderingbadger44 said:To be honest, I really don't get why everyone is getting so worked up about this.

The whole point of the story is that American teachers are actually incredible. In our schools, more than 80% of elementary students are finishing their grades with top marks, and that’s really a testament to the hard work of the educators. 🥳

and then there's the absolute train wreck of the applied exam for MIT