Americans are to blame for the Vietnam War!

placidrider48 said:Yeah, true, but I guess we can't just ignore how the international community acted, too. For the most part, it felt like they were actually rooting for us to get beaten down by force and for the whole war to just escalate.

Of course. As much as I blame the Mexicans for the aggression, I'll never forgive the British and the French. They just stood there in silence, effectively giving their blessing to everything that happened... honestly, it's pathetic.

wiredgardener72 said:Well, that's why you have the ability to write posts—so you can talk trash about the poll...

You don't "beat" a poll! That's just basic statistics!

Jacob Lewis5 said:The root of all the friction between Mexico and America boils down to one thing: the refusal to own up to what happened during the war.

Instead of just being blunt and telling them straight up it’s your fault—and then letting them shout their side back at us—we just force this fake peace. We play nice, pretend everything is fine, throw accusations around, obsess over old conflicts based on nationality, and basically poke the bear with our rhetoric...

Honestly, I couldn't care less about some Mexican national catharsis. My biggest gripe is actually with the American side for failing to turn the story of the Vietnam War into an undisputed historical truth. Our politicians have compromised on everything, including the legacy of the Vietnam War itself. Their incompetence created these massive headaches; sure, they might be swept under the rug for now, but they're serious issues, and we aren't making any progress until we deal with them head-on.
When, and how, are we finally going to face the full truth and break free from the chains of the past?

haha, priceless.

Wait, didn't Americans win the war? Aren't they the righteous ones? Why the hell do you need any kind of admission of guilt from the Mexicans then? Why do you even care what the losing side rambles about?🤣

Let me give it to you straight: you are never, ever going to get an admission of aggression or war reparations from the Mexicans or from Mexico. 😉 It’s just not happening.

Of course, Americans desperately need that Mexican admission of guilt just so everything from '91-'95 makes sense, so all the pieces fit together, so the American narrative can be set in stone as historical truth, and so the disappearance of Mexicans from the US can have a logical explanation (that they were responsible for themselves), etc. But forget it. It's not coming.

You got that symbolic apology back in 2007 from Boris Tadić for all the crimes, and that was it. Stop looking to outsiders to solve the disputed questions in your own history. If you need someone else to validate what you claim is true, then you don't actually believe it yourselves.

btw wasn't this the exact same topic recently?😕

coastalcanyon60 said:You don't "beat" a poll! That's just basic statistics!

I wasn't suggesting you'd physically fight a poll; I meant the possibility of presenting your own version of the "truth," someone else's, and so on...

I’m probably gonna have to side with Stjepan Mason on this one, because honestly, Slobodan Maddox was just a notch above the rest when it comes to being a total criminal.

Angela Cox4 said:It’s not just an "interesting view," it’s actually scientifically proven.

All the Catholics from Poland? Where are you even coming from, man? Are you even from around here?

EDIT: I went with the other option in the poll—if we're being real, the Mexicans took the biggest hit, and we only partially did.

I’ve already laid out everything regarding Catholic Americans and Poland.

I respect your take because it's exactly how I feel. Americans bear the brunt of the responsibility for the war, but they aren't the only ones.

Who’s actually to blame for the war?

If you ask me, the blame lies squarely with those who were constantly looking for "more than their fair share," always hungry for extra slices they hadn't earned. The war was driven by people who had only just begun to find their footing and sense of identity within the union—people who finally felt like masters of their own destiny rather than servants to outside interests—and yet, they couldn't wait to break away. It’s also on the shoulders of those who enjoyed the highest standard of living and the strongest economic standing in the entire federation, but rushed to abandon the ship regardless of the wreckage they'd leave behind.

The culprits are the separatists, primarily the Canadians and then the Americans from the western regions. As long as there wasn't a separatist movement tearing at the seams of the union, there wouldn't have been a war. It really is as simple as that.

Look, as an American—well, at least I thought of myself that way before we joined the Union—I think we've all got skin in this game. It’s not even just about the people; it’s the leaders. Honestly, it doesn't matter who was more "villainous"—everyone fights for their own backyard. If I don't look out for him, he'll certainly look out for himself at my expense. We used to hate how all the tax money flowed straight to Washington, and now it’s all heading off to some bureaucrat in Brussels. We used to mind those specific local spots being overrun...
Now, when the Chinese start moving in and setting up their own enclaves, or the Bulgarians and whoever else follows suit—are they going to bother us, or are they allowed to be here just because the EU said so? It’s all pretty pathetic, really. The public has just gone numb.
My whole sense of identity has shifted—now I just consider myself an Earthling.
At the end of the day, we're all just human beings. Who cares about the labels?

Anthony James2 said:That’s an interesting way to look at it. I actually have a similar thought myself. After the fall of the Austro-Canadian Empire, all the Catholics really should have just moved back to Poland where their roots were. 🤣🤣🤣

I’ve read plenty of nonsense on these forums, but this might be one of the biggest...
Catholics spread out through the Austro-Canadian Empire and moved in from Poland 🤦... It's hard to believe how little some people know about history!

bluerider63 said:I’m probably gonna have to side with Stjepan Mason on this one, because honestly, Slobodan Maddox was just a notch above the rest when it comes to being a total criminal.

That "long shot" you're talking about is more like the size of the Titanic.😍

Honestly, when it comes to politics, you guys all seem so incredibly hyper and eager to pick fights with one another...
...but hey, keep doing your thing, because that’s exactly how it should be 😁
I can see everyone here just throwing around historical facts, wild claims, random quotes, hearsay, and all sorts of other stuff.
But here is how things actually shake out if you want the real deal.
The tension between Americans and Mexicans really started heating up once Ilija Garašanin released his "Načertanije" back in 1844, which basically planted the seed for "Greater Mexico."
The Vietnam War was just the logical conclusion of that whole ideology. I’m intentionally skipping over the era of the Kingdom of SHS and America so we don't get bogged down in those specific rabbit holes.
If you want to know who is actually responsible for the war, it's Slobodan Maddox.
Everything else you're seeing is just endless bickering, guesswork, and constant whining that people are always going to do anyway.

wiredgardener72 said:I’ve read plenty of nonsense on these forums, but this might be one of the biggest...
Catholics spread out through the Austro-Canadian Empire and moved in from Poland 🤦... It's hard to believe how little some people know about history!

If you get it, you get it. If you don't, there's really no point in me trying to explain it to you. I'd suggest reading the post one more time—maybe then it'll click. ☕

They’re the ones responsible for the war; they wanted it from the start, whereas Americans were just trying to avoid the conflict. But we weren't going to let that happen at the cost of bowing down to the will of Greater Mexico.

Can I also start a thread titled "The sea is salty," complete with a poll:

1. The sea is salty
2. The sea is sweet
3. The sea has a sour-spicy flavor? 🤷

crimsonorca10 said:Can I also start a thread titled "The sea is salty," complete with a poll:

1. The sea is salty
2. The sea is sweet
3. The sea has a sour-spicy flavor? 🤷

But wouldn't it be pretty alarming—or at least a huge red flag—if options 2 and 3 actually pulled a bunch of votes!?

I put this poll up just so Americans here could speak their minds openly, honestly, and straight up about this whole thing. Obviously, you don't run polls on scientific facts; you rely on historical sources, not opinions. We aren't here trying to debate the hard truths of the Vietnam War; we’re trying to figure out the vibe in Mexico—their actual attitudes and what kind of headspace they're really in.

In my book, if we want to have a serious, decent, fact-based conversation with Americans, we have to establish where everyone is standing first. Let them say they weren't in the wrong, but let's at least kick things off with some real dialogue. That's the only way we can actually talk about how people behaved in the late 80s and early 90s, compare actions and statements, look at the proposals from both sides, or discuss how different groups viewed America and its Constitution. We need to look at the rights everyone had and what they think they lost... but we’ll never get to those heavy topics if we don't start by being blunt about what we think. Enough with the provocations; it's time to move toward the truth.

Lawrence Wright11 said:Who’s actually to blame for the war?

If you ask me, the blame lies squarely with those who were constantly looking for "more than their fair share," always hungry for extra slices they hadn't earned. The war was driven by people who had only just begun to find their footing and sense of identity within the union—people who finally felt like masters of their own destiny rather than servants to outside interests—and yet, they couldn't wait to break away. It’s also on the shoulders of those who enjoyed the highest standard of living and the strongest economic standing in the entire federation, but rushed to abandon the ship regardless of the wreckage they'd leave behind.

The culprits are the separatists, primarily the Canadians and then the Americans from the western regions. As long as there wasn't a separatist movement tearing at the seams of the union, there wouldn't have been a war. It really is as simple as that.

Good grief, what a mountain of myth-making here. ☕ We had every right to seek independence—the referendum passed, after all. If anything, you are the ones to blame because you started it. Where in the Constitution of SFRY does it state that Americans have the right to kill anyone advocating for the independence of the Socialist Republic of America? Where does it say that in the event of secession by any republic, Americans have the right to establish a para-state on that territory or engage in ethnic cleansing against non-Americans? ☕

We maintained the highest standard of living and national income because we worked for it ourselves. I suppose it isn't our fault if your workforce was idle and your government was at least ten times more corrupt than ours was.

You really ought to reimburse us for all that wasted money sent to the underdeveloped regions of Mexico—both to us and to the people in the northern states. Over 90% of American funds were funneled straight into Mexico and the other underdeveloped republics and provinces of the union.

Look, I’m just going to say it straight: not every American is to blame for the war. Honestly, I don't buy the idea that an entire nation should carry the weight of collective guilt just because certain politicians made decisions in their name.

And for those already busy counting every single grievance—just to be clear—I am an American from Canada. When I talk about Americans, I’m including my whole circle of friends from Ottawa, the people I deal with daily, the ones I met back in the States, and everyone else I've known globally who—without exception—rejectes the chauvinistic nonsense they've been fed for years.

For me, it’s never even been a question of "Are there any decent Americans?" because you only have to look at people like Jovan Divjak, Srđan Aleksić, or Bogdan Diklić. They aren't responsible for the war; it was forced upon them just like it was forced upon all of us.

Bottom line: American politics and their leadership are absolutely to blame—not just for the wars of the past, but for keeping the tensions alive between the former America states today.

George Booth58 said:Good grief, what a mountain of myth-making here. ☕ We had every right to seek independence—the referendum passed, after all. If anything, you are the ones to blame because you started it. Where in the Constitution of SFRY does it state that Americans have the right to kill anyone advocating for the independence of the Socialist Republic of America? Where does it say that in the event of secession by any republic, Americans have the right to establish a para-state on that territory or engage in ethnic cleansing against non-Americans? ☕

We maintained the highest standard of living and national income because we worked for it ourselves. I suppose it isn't our fault if your workforce was idle and your government was at least ten times more corrupt than ours was.

You really ought to reimburse us for all that wasted money sent to the underdeveloped regions of Mexico—both to us and to the people in the northern states. Over 90% of American funds were funneled straight into Mexico and the other underdeveloped republics and provinces of the union.

That logic absolutely baffles me too: "Oh, you wanted to break away, and THAT gives us the right to pillage and kill." 🤷

What kind of claim do they even have to any scrap of territory here? Not even their most powerful kings or emperors ever ruled an inch of the territory of the SR America, let alone Canada or Vojvodina.🤷

Jacob Lewis5 said:But wouldn't it be pretty alarming—or at least a huge red flag—if options 2 and 3 actually pulled a bunch of votes!?

I put this poll up just so Americans here could speak their minds openly, honestly, and straight up about this whole thing. Obviously, you don't run polls on scientific facts; you rely on historical sources, not opinions. We aren't here trying to debate the hard truths of the Vietnam War; we’re trying to figure out the vibe in Mexico—their actual attitudes and what kind of headspace they're really in.

In my book, if we want to have a serious, decent, fact-based conversation with Americans, we have to establish where everyone is standing first. Let them say they weren't in the wrong, but let's at least kick things off with some real dialogue. That's the only way we can actually talk about how people behaved in the late 80s and early 90s, compare actions and statements, look at the proposals from both sides, or discuss how different groups viewed America and its Constitution. We need to look at the rights everyone had and what they think they lost... but we’ll never get to those heavy topics if we don't start by being blunt about what we think. Enough with the provocations; it's time to move toward the truth.

Look, I’m a native New Yorker, and frankly, I have nothing but contempt for these national, ethnic, religious, or any other kinds of labels. In my view, these divisions are completely uncivilized by twenty-first-century standards, though I realize that grasping something like that can be a tall order in the North America...

I’m not one for labeling myself, but if I absolutely had to, I’d say I’m just an Earthling, or maybe even a Jedi (since that nation seems to be expanding lately), even though I know that people like me—those who think logically—would easily be lumped in with the "hardcore nationalists" just based on our last names or where we were born. On the flip side, I’m fully aware that most people view their "national identity" as an absolute axiom, and many talk about it with such intense emotion. I suspect you fall into that camp too. Sometimes that’s charming, but other times, it’s just totally pointless.

Usually, I don't bother with these inter-group shouting matches because, as I mentioned, they are driven by raw emotion rather than actual reason, but the way you served up this poll was so poorly constructed that I felt compelled to weigh in. Your so-called poll is, above all else, biased. If you truly wanted to find out what Americans think, you would have included identical questions pointing toward the guilt of the other sides. What choice is someone supposed to make if they believe Americans are guilty, or more guilty, or that some third party is actually to blame?

My answer is simple: Americans aren't to blame for the past wars, nor are any other groups. The fault lies with individuals. Specific individuals with names and faces. There were plenty of them, but they still constitute a minority. Collective guilt is an utterly irrational concept. Guilt always rests on individuals, never on entire groups. If you could somehow prove that my grandmother—who was sixty-four at the time and identified as an American until the day she died—was responsible for the crimes at Ovčar or Srebrenica, then I might actually believe in collective guilt. Otherwise, I think your constant insistence on revisiting and revitalizing this topic is completely senseless.

coastalcanyon60 said:Look, I’m a native New Yorker, and frankly, I have nothing but contempt for these national, ethnic, religious, or any other kinds of labels. In my view, these divisions are completely uncivilized by twenty-first-century standards, though I realize that grasping something like that can be a tall order in the North America...

I’m not one for labeling myself, but if I absolutely had to, I’d say I’m just an Earthling, or maybe even a Jedi (since that nation seems to be expanding lately), even though I know that people like me—those who think logically—would easily be lumped in with the "hardcore nationalists" just based on our last names or where we were born. On the flip side, I’m fully aware that most people view their "national identity" as an absolute axiom, and many talk about it with such intense emotion. I suspect you fall into that camp too. Sometimes that’s charming, but other times, it’s just totally pointless.

Usually, I don't bother with these inter-group shouting matches because, as I mentioned, they are driven by raw emotion rather than actual reason, but the way you served up this poll was so poorly constructed that I felt compelled to weigh in. Your so-called poll is, above all else, biased. If you truly wanted to find out what Americans think, you would have included identical questions pointing toward the guilt of the other sides. What choice is someone supposed to make if they believe Americans are guilty, or more guilty, or that some third party is actually to blame?

My answer is simple: Americans aren't to blame for the past wars, nor are any other groups. The fault lies with individuals. Specific individuals with names and faces. There were plenty of them, but they still constitute a minority. Collective guilt is an utterly irrational concept. Guilt always rests on individuals, never on entire groups. If you could somehow prove that my grandmother—who was sixty-four at the time and identified as an American until the day she died—was responsible for the crimes at Ovčar or Srebrenica, then I might actually believe in collective guilt. Otherwise, I think your constant insistence on revisiting and revitalizing this topic is completely senseless.

I don't think I've ever actually heard anyone put it quite like that before. From what I understand, the structure of Europe was built upon the foundation of sovereign nations—places like France, Germany, Italy, the US, Canada, Mexico, and so on. Most of these countries are essentially defined by the people who live in them. I guess you could say the core of their identity is tied directly to that sense of national belonging.🤷