Remembering Ayrton Senna

Walter Anderson43 said:It honestly gives me chills to think that people like you aren't kept under strict supervision in an institution on this planet of monkeys.

Everything they said is actually true. Ayrton Senna could steal setups from Alain Prost. See, Senna was a driver who lived for the engine, whereas Alain Prost was all about the chassis. I mean, obviously, Alain Prost couldn't just swipe those Honda units that had "For Senna" written on them, but Ayrton Senna could easily copy an Alain Prost car setup.

It clearly got under Alain Prost's skin so much that at the last minute he’d start tweaking things on the car... sometimes he'd mess it up, and other times he'd hit the nail on the head.

Take that famous Suzuki race in '89—he actually told his technicians to secretly remove his Gurney flap behind Ayrton Senna's back, and it worked perfectly. It made the car faster on the straights, which was vital, since Ayrton Senna couldn't touch him in the corners... honestly, the only thing he couldn't account for was a desperate charge from Ayrton Senna; otherwise, he outsmarted him technically.

cosmiccyclist8 said:Everything they said is actually true. Ayrton Senna could steal setups from Alain Prost. See, Senna was a driver who lived for the engine, whereas Alain Prost was all about the chassis. I mean, obviously, Alain Prost couldn't just swipe those Honda units that had "For Senna" written on them, but Ayrton Senna could easily copy an Alain Prost car setup.

It clearly got under Alain Prost's skin so much that at the last minute he’d start tweaking things on the car... sometimes he'd mess it up, and other times he'd hit the nail on the head.

Take that famous Suzuki race in '89—he actually told his technicians to secretly remove his Gurney flap behind Ayrton Senna's back, and it worked perfectly. It made the car faster on the straights, which was vital, since Ayrton Senna couldn't touch him in the corners... honestly, the only thing he couldn't account for was a desperate charge from Ayrton Senna; otherwise, he outsmarted him technically.

Where are you even pulling this nonsense from? Personally, I don't care if it was Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna, but there's no point in lying.

Who was doing setups for Ayrton Senna before? Maybe Elio de Angelis, Naoki Nakajima, Gerhard Berger, or Mika Hakkinen? Who?

So it turns out Honda was making special engines just for Ayrton Senna!

And specifically, which part of the Suzuki race was it when Alain Prost was faster than Ayrton Senna, and what was this "desperate move"?

Here are a few heartwarming moments for a change 😉>

jo ramirez

“Back at McLaren, Ron Dennis was always incredibly intense regarding trophies. He viewed them strictly as team property—so much so that he actually included clauses in driver contracts stating they weren't allowed to keep any silverware they earned. However, Ayrton Senna managed to insist on keeping his own trophies within his contract. To settle things, Ron had me track down the original manufacturers for every trophy just so we could have exact replicas produced. Ayrton told me, ‘Ensure mine is the genuine article.’ Meanwhile, Ron would snap, ‘Whatever you do, don’t let him have the real one.’ I ended up telling both of them they were getting the real thing, and honestly, I’m not about to spill the secret now on which one actually walked away with the original!

“On the other hand, Alain Prost never really cared for the trophies. His final victory for McLaren was Monza 1989, right after he had already committed to Ferrari. The crowd of tifosi surrounding the podium was chanting ‘copa, copa,’ so he simply tossed the trophy down to them. Naturally, they ripped it to shreds—one guy grabbed the handle, another snagged the lid. Ron was absolutely livid. He interpreted it as Alain Prost saying, ‘I don’t give a shit, I’m done with McLaren, I’m heading to Ferrari.’ In reality, Alain Prost didn't mean it that way at all; he just thought it was a classy gesture toward the fans.

cosmiccyclist8 said:Everything they said is actually true. Ayrton Senna could steal setups from Alain Prost. See, Senna was a driver who lived for the engine, whereas Alain Prost was all about the chassis. I mean, obviously, Alain Prost couldn't just swipe those Honda units that had "For Senna" written on them, but Ayrton Senna could easily copy an Alain Prost car setup.

It clearly got under Alain Prost's skin so much that at the last minute he’d start tweaking things on the car... sometimes he'd mess it up, and other times he'd hit the nail on the head.

Take that famous Suzuki race in '89—he actually told his technicians to secretly remove his Gurney flap behind Ayrton Senna's back, and it worked perfectly. It made the car faster on the straights, which was vital, since Ayrton Senna couldn't touch him in the corners... honestly, the only thing he couldn't account for was a desperate charge from Ayrton Senna; otherwise, he outsmarted him technically.

This guy clearly doesn't get it.

Alain Prost > Ayrton Senna. Proven once again.

Jason Campbell70 said:This guy clearly doesn't get it.

Alain Prost > Ayrton Senna. Proven once again.

If I've got this right, he used that fast car to set himself up just so Ayrton Senna could dive at him during braking?

Alain Prost <> Ayrton Senna🎉

http://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/24...am-suzuka-1989

ruggedhawk20 probably stumbled upon this somewhere and, in his usual fashion, cherry-picked whatever parts caught his eye, tweaking the details to suit his own narrative.🙂

Simply wonderful.

Per the FIA Code of Conduct, specifically Article 56, if a car becomes stranded on the circuit, marshals are permitted to clear it. Provided the driver manages to get the car moving again, they are allowed to rejoin the race. The issue here lies in the technicality that Ayrton Senna essentially "skipped" the chicane. Following the crash, Ayrton Senna's car failed to return to the specific section of the track where it originally went off.

Interesting read🙂, regarding how Ayrton Senna was penalized because he didn't push the car back to the exact spot of the accident. It would have been quite a sight to see someone trying to shove a car back into position right where drivers are slamming on the brakes at 180 mph for a chicane!

Then we get to the specifics of how the penalty was handed down.🙂

At the FIA hearing later in the same week, they didn't just uphold the disqualification; they slapped him with a $100,000 fine as well. On top of that, Ayrton Senna was handed a six-month suspension for reckless driving. The FIA actually labeled Ayrton Senna a 'dangerous driver.' Ultimately, though, only the fine stuck. Alain Prost walked away as the world champion.

Ayrton Senna ended up competing in the Adelaide Grand Prix, thinking that if he secured the win and passed the FIA inspections, the championship would be his. Instead, he dropped out on lap 13 following a collision, leaving him to watch his friend Thierry Boutsen take the victory.

When someone gets hit with a penalty like this for supposedly cutting a chicane, it makes you wonder: has anyone else ever been punished for skipping a chicane before or after this?
Nowadays, the worst you usually see for that is a five-second penalty, or if someone gains an advantage by cutting, they simply have to give the position back.🙂
They basically just threw that $100,000 fine at Ayrton Senna and yanked his license—just brilliant execution there.
It isn't worth pointing out that he wasn't putting anyone in danger.🙂.

I suppose cosmiccyclist8 and Jason Campbell70 could clarify things for us and explain exactly what happened here.

No, there wasn't even a hint of injustice toward Ayrton Senna. That's to say, without even getting into the intentional blocking of Alain Prost—which went unpunished—or the fact that Ayrton Senna was robbed of a title opportunity, because had he won in Australia, he would have been the champion under the rules at the time.

So, colleagues, what are your thoughts?

mellowtiger83 said:If I've got this right, he used that fast car to set himself up just so Ayrton Senna could dive at him during braking?

Alain Prost <> Ayrton Senna🎉

He basically positioned himself just so Ayrton Senna could divebomb the inside line.

That kind of aggressive move on the inside works great—provided the guy ahead actually clears the racing line.
If he doesn't? Then you just look incredibly foolish... and end up wrecking yourself and the driver in front.

mellowtiger83 said:Per the FIA Code of Conduct, specifically Article 56, if a car becomes stranded on the circuit, marshals are permitted to clear it. Provided the driver manages to get the car moving again, they are allowed to rejoin the race. The issue here lies in the technicality that Ayrton Senna essentially "skipped" the chicane. Following the crash, Ayrton Senna's car failed to return to the specific section of the track where it originally went off.

Interesting read🙂, regarding how Ayrton Senna was penalized because he didn't push the car back to the exact spot of the accident. It would have been quite a sight to see someone trying to shove a car back into position right where drivers are slamming on the brakes at 180 mph for a chicane!

Then we get to the specifics of how the penalty was handed down.🙂

At the FIA hearing later in the same week, they didn't just uphold the disqualification; they slapped him with a $100,000 fine as well. On top of that, Ayrton Senna was handed a six-month suspension for reckless driving. The FIA actually labeled Ayrton Senna a 'dangerous driver.' Ultimately, though, only the fine stuck. Alain Prost walked away as the world champion.

Ayrton Senna ended up competing in the Adelaide Grand Prix, thinking that if he secured the win and passed the FIA inspections, the championship would be his. Instead, he dropped out on lap 13 following a collision, leaving him to watch his friend Thierry Boutsen take the victory.

When someone gets hit with a penalty like this for supposedly cutting a chicane, it makes you wonder: has anyone else ever been punished for skipping a chicane before or after this?
Nowadays, the worst you usually see for that is a five-second penalty, or if someone gains an advantage by cutting, they simply have to give the position back.🙂
They basically just threw that $100,000 fine at Ayrton Senna and yanked his license—just brilliant execution there.
It isn't worth pointing out that he wasn't putting anyone in danger.🙂.

I suppose cosmiccyclist8 and Jason Campbell70 could clarify things for us and explain exactly what happened here.

No, there wasn't even a hint of injustice toward Ayrton Senna. That's to say, without even getting into the intentional blocking of Alain Prost—which went unpunished—or the fact that Ayrton Senna was robbed of a title opportunity, because had he won in Australia, he would have been the champion under the rules at the time.

So, colleagues, what are your thoughts?

Roland Bruynseraede, director of the course:

Five years later, I’m sitting here thinking—maybe we actually screwed up. Maybe it was a mistake.
Maybe we should have just slapped a black flag on Ayrton Senna right then and there.
If things had gone that way, we probably would have saved ourselves a massive headache.
But instead, given just how much was riding on that duel, we actually took our time before making a call.
Maybe we should have been more strict.
Look, if I’m being honest—and looking back at everything now—that’s exactly how I see it.

Jason Campbell70 said:He basically positioned himself just so Ayrton Senna could divebomb the inside line.

That kind of aggressive move on the inside works great—provided the guy ahead actually clears the racing line.
If he doesn't? Then you just look incredibly foolish... and end up wrecking yourself and the driver in front.

And another thing—if Alain Prost were being honest, there would be some hint that Ayrton Senna’s aggressive move would force him toward the middle of the track rather than the actual racing line. He even mentioned being worn out by Ayrton Senna's dangerous maneuvers, where he's always the one having to yield, claiming his door would be closed—but honestly, Ayrton Senna was just way too far back.

cosmiccyclist8 said:And another thing—if Alain Prost were being honest, there would be some hint that Ayrton Senna’s aggressive move would force him toward the middle of the track rather than the actual racing line. He even mentioned being worn out by Ayrton Senna's dangerous maneuvers, where he's always the one having to yield, claiming his door would be closed—but honestly, Ayrton Senna was just way too far back.

If Alain Prost had that huge rear wing to tweak at the last moment, Ayrton Senna could've used the slipstream on the descent to overtake him right before R130. Instead, because Alain Prost has less drag, his top speed on the straights is higher, leaving Ayrton Senna with zero slipstream advantage. That's the whole reason the overtake attempt happened at the slowest section of the circuit.

ruggedhawk20 said:If Alain Prost had that huge rear wing to tweak at the last moment, Ayrton Senna could've used the slipstream on the descent to overtake him right before R130. Instead, because Alain Prost has less drag, his top speed on the straights is higher, leaving Ayrton Senna with zero slipstream advantage. That's the whole reason the overtake attempt happened at the slowest section of the circuit.

Well, now you just have to figure out how to actually get that through mellowtiger83's thick skull.

Are you all blind or what? Watch the footage of the collision before the chicane in Japan back in 1989—just look at how early Alain Prost started turning right.

Man, the guy clearly turned early because he saw Ayrton Senna lunging at him and realized he was about to get hit...

Yet, I have this massive group of Formula 1 analysts and drivers characterizing that move as Alain Prost intentionally turning too soon just to smash into Ayrton Senna and block the overtake.

I really hope this is just intentional hate—there's no way you're all actually this clueless.

cosmiccyclist8 said:Well, now you just have to figure out how to actually get that through mellowtiger83's thick skull.

Look, Mario, I understand everything! It's just that I can't make sense of some of your posts (especially yours).

Whether you call it Ayrton Senna diving or not, the fact remains that half his car was alongside Alain Prost when he turned into him before the Apex, which he had clearly signaled he was going to do.

Even if we write this off as a mere racing incident, there are other unresolved questions left hanging.

First off, since when does cutting a chicane result in a disqualification, a $100,000 fine, and a six-month license suspension? You tell me.

I should point out that back then, it was perfectly legal for marshals to push a car along the track, so nothing was violated on that front—meaning the penalty was strictly for cutting the chicane.
What kind of advantage did Ayrton Senna actually gain here? In my view, none at all.

Why wasn't Ayrton Senna disqualified immediately, but instead faced consequences later after Prost reported it to Jean-Marie Balestre?

It honestly pains me to talk about "divebombing" and setup differences (though of course there were setup differences, given that from mid-season onwards, neither Ayrton Senna nor Alain Prost had a 0% chance of seeing the other's configuration).

Watching the race footage, it looks to me like both cars had a Gurney flap, but that's beside the point.

Just explain to me what was really happening here—why was one driver punished so drastically for simply cutting a chicane?

Give us some examples: who else in history has been penalized like this for cutting a chicane, and when?

The whole thing felt like a farce orchestrated by Alain Prost and Jean-Marie Balestre, unfortunately.

And what is this supposed black flag being mentioned?

Answer me that, friend. This isn't about Ayrton Senna vs. Alain Prost for me; personally, I consider Alain Prost better in certain aspects, and they are both top-tier motorsport legends in my eyes, neck and neck.

I am only interested in the truth.

mellowtiger83 is basically saying everything is technically legal if you just bother to actually read the rulebook.

FIA Statement

Per the FIA Code of Conduct, specifically article 56, there's nothing wrong with a car getting hung up on the track and being cleared out by marshals. If the driver manages to get things moving again, they’re allowed to jump back into the race. Where things got messy here—and why it’s considered illegal—is that Ayrton Senna essentially "shortcut" the chicane. Following the crash, Ayrton Senna's car ended up nowhere near the actual section of the track where it was supposed to be.

What a massive pile of nonsense in here....

cosmiccyclist8 said:mellowtiger83 is basically saying everything is technically legal if you just bother to actually read the rulebook.

FIA Statement

Per the FIA Code of Conduct, specifically article 56, there's nothing wrong with a car getting hung up on the track and being cleared out by marshals. If the driver manages to get things moving again, they’re allowed to jump back into the race. Where things got messy here—and why it’s considered illegal—is that Ayrton Senna essentially "shortcut" the chicane. Following the crash, Ayrton Senna's car ended up nowhere near the actual section of the track where it was supposed to be.

Of course there's an exclamation point. According to the rules, they should have pushed Ayrton Senna onto the racing line where he’s braking at nearly 200 mph.

I wasn't asking you what the rulebook says. I asked why such drastic penalties were handed out in the first place, and why nobody else before or after faced anything similar for doing the exact same thing.

To put it simply: the win was stripped away over some nonsense where nobody gained an advantage and nobody was even put in danger. On top of that, he gets slapped with a $100,000 fine and a six-month license suspension. It's madness.

Find me the specific section in the regulations that justifies this! It was clearly just a ridiculous decision manufactured by Jean-Marie Balestre.

Mario Andretti, what’s your take on credits and low interest rates?

And what about this? Why weren't they allowed to just get back out there and race—unlike Mario Andretti? Is this actually "draconian"?

Jason Campbell70 said:Mario Andretti, what’s your take on credits and low interest rates?

I suppose they're preferable to those carrying high interest rates.😁