Remembering Ayrton Senna

mellowtiger83 said:In that one race where Michael Schumacher illegally finished ahead of Ayrton Senna by cutting through the pits during a lightning-fast refueling stop (which was obviously against the rules).

But in that scenario, Damon Hill only gains 6 points from it—so how many points did Ayrton Senna actually claw back during those laps when he had such a massive lead? How much was it, mellowtiger83?

mellowtiger83 said:Well, Damon Hill certainly spent plenty of time in that car; he was trailing by an entire lap at one point, if I recall correctly.😁

Yeah, Ayrton Senna was absolutely crushing lap records, taking pole position in all three races that season, and he really left everything out there on the track. It was pure fate that intervened; if that steering column had snapped anywhere else instead of the worst possible spot, he’d still be with us today. As for Damon Hill, I have to tip my hat to him. He’s easily one of the best Formula 1 drivers out there. I honestly don't get why he stayed away from racing for so long, especially since he was a contemporary of Ayrton Senna. If they had both started their careers at the exact same time, it would be a massive debate who actually came out on top. But let's be real—he spent his time driving that dominant Williams car both before and after Ayrton Senna. In one race, he went wheel-to-wheel with Ayrton Senna in the McLaren, eventually overtaking him after some intense, classic resistance from Ayrton Senna, and the commentator actually remarked how tragic it was because Hill only had... Three appearances.Ayrton Senna Three world championships. He's just powerless because of that massive gap in car performance. Back then, the Williams cars were absolutely dominant.☕

Dana Perez6 said:Yeah, Ayrton Senna was absolutely crushing lap records, taking pole position in all three races that season, and he really left everything out there on the track. It was pure fate that intervened; if that steering column had snapped anywhere else instead of the worst possible spot, he’d still be with us today. As for Damon Hill, I have to tip my hat to him. He’s easily one of the best Formula 1 drivers out there. I honestly don't get why he stayed away from racing for so long, especially since he was a contemporary of Ayrton Senna. If they had both started their careers at the exact same time, it would be a massive debate who actually came out on top. But let's be real—he spent his time driving that dominant Williams car both before and after Ayrton Senna. In one race, he went wheel-to-wheel with Ayrton Senna in the McLaren, eventually overtaking him after some intense, classic resistance from Ayrton Senna, and the commentator actually remarked how tragic it was because Hill only had... Three appearances.Ayrton Senna Three world championships. He's just powerless because of that massive gap in car performance. Back then, the Williams cars were absolutely dominant.☕

How could he start earlier when he lost his dad at 15!? It's a miracle he even made it to Formula 1—especially after grinding through a motorcycle career first.

And then this guy asks "what he did for so long outside of racing"

Like, what have YOU been doing for all those years!?

He didn't have the cash. His father left behind a mountain of debt. It's a wonder they even pulled through.

The worst part is that his father—along with Stewart—was the type who would always check in on widows and offer them help.

And yeah. Widows used to be a standard part of the Grand Prix race scene. The whole mentality surrounding racing was just different back then. That’s why Ayrton Senna showing up with his raw, unrefined approach to racing absolutely terrified everyone. He was the driver the older generation couldn't stand. And since Stewart is one of the few survivors from that era, that 1990 interview turned out the way it did because Stewart couldn't stand Ayrton Senna. Just like how we can't stand Red Bull today.

cosmiccyclist8 said:But in that scenario, Damon Hill only gains 6 points from it—so how many points did Ayrton Senna actually claw back during those laps when he had such a massive lead? How much was it, mellowtiger83?

Zero points. That's because he was launched from the rear in Adelaide, because he crossed the track limits in Brazil, and because Michael Schumacher and Benetton essentially cheated their way out after the pit stops.
We all know the rest.

An interesting point. Hill could have been picking up points there and elsewhere, potentially trailing by half a lap per lap, yet he managed to spend the following years fighting Michael Schumacher despite being visibly slower than Ayrton Senna.

Let’s be realistic: Ayrton Senna adapted himself to the Williams perfectly. You have to admit he was pulling miracles out of an undriveable car. Had he still been alive in the weeks, months, and years that followed, Michael Schumacher would have spent his time staring at nothing but the view of a rear diffuser.

mellowtiger83 said:Zero points. That's because he was launched from the rear in Adelaide, because he crossed the track limits in Brazil, and because Michael Schumacher and Benetton essentially cheated their way out after the pit stops.
We all know the rest.

An interesting point. Hill could have been picking up points there and elsewhere, potentially trailing by half a lap per lap, yet he managed to spend the following years fighting Michael Schumacher despite being visibly slower than Ayrton Senna.

Let’s be realistic: Ayrton Senna adapted himself to the Williams perfectly. You have to admit he was pulling miracles out of an undriveable car. Had he still been alive in the weeks, months, and years that followed, Michael Schumacher would have spent his time staring at nothing but the view of a rear diffuser.

Ayrton Senna only put together about 60 laps across those three races in a Williams combined. That's way too little data to draw any actual conclusions about "what if."

But we do know what actually happened. The numbers don't lie: Ayrton Senna had 0 points, Michael Schumacher had 92. Ayrton Senna had 0 wins, Michael Schumacher had 8.

Just facts.

ruggedhawk20 said:Ayrton Senna only put together about 60 laps across those three races in a Williams combined. That's way too little data to draw any actual conclusions about "what if."

But we do know what actually happened. The numbers don't lie: Ayrton Senna had 0 points, Michael Schumacher had 92. Ayrton Senna had 0 wins, Michael Schumacher had 8.

Just facts.

Facts. The fact is, Ayrton Senna lost his Life because of a mistake with that car, and a dead man can't drive Formula 1 races anymore. As far as I know, Michael Schumacher was still alive back then, so he was able to rack up points and take wins. But if Ayrton Senna had stayed alive? Schumacher would have spent years staring at the rear diffuser of his car. Like I said, he probably wouldn't even see the diffuser because Ayrton Senna was lightning fast—he would've just blown past him, lapping him, leaving Schumacher to wonder what happened to his rear wing setup while Ayrton Senna pulled away.😁 ☕

If I had been born in the US, I’d be driving Formula 1 right now, leaving both of them staring at my diffuser ☕

And yeah, I’d be winning constantly, probably sitting on ten world titles by now...
Of course, that’s assuming Guy isn't my neighbor, because if he were, I'd be stuck staring at his rear diffuser instead. 🙂 😁

Dana Perez6 said:Facts. The fact is, Ayrton Senna lost his Life because of a mistake with that car, and a dead man can't drive Formula 1 races anymore. As far as I know, Michael Schumacher was still alive back then, so he was able to rack up points and take wins. But if Ayrton Senna had stayed alive? Schumacher would have spent years staring at the rear diffuser of his car. Like I said, he probably wouldn't even see the diffuser because Ayrton Senna was lightning fast—he would've just blown past him, lapping him, leaving Schumacher to wonder what happened to his rear wing setup while Ayrton Senna pulled away.😁 ☕

Show a little respect for the dead.

ruggedhawk20 said:Show a little respect for the dead.

Look, I am showing respect to Ayrton Senna. It's not that hard to wrap your head around.🤔div>

cosmiccyclist8 said:That’s true, but mellowtiger83 is really aiming at Ayrton Senna👍 regarding how he lost a lap back there. 👍

But if you look at it, Hill puts 6 points on the board here—so how many points did Ayrton Senna actually lose out on by being a lap down when he had such a massive lead? How much, mellowtiger83?

Ayrton Senna managed to lap Damon Hill while they were in the exact same car with about 17 laps left in the race!
Well, I'm not sure what else to say. Aside from suggesting you just turn on the TV and watch the replay.

Dana Perez6 said:Look, I am showing respect to Ayrton Senna. It's not that hard to wrap your head around.🤔div>

Nah. That’s not exactly showing respect to a dead man.

You and hundreds of thousands of other people just like you—using a dead man to fuel your little internet adventures.

Leave the guy alone already. Either stick to the historical facts—or just shut up.

Nobody gives a damn about this nonsense anymore.

And especially not his former fans—you know, the ones who actually watched him with their own eyes, heard him firsthand, and loved him with everything they had. Back when he was still around...

Then you've got those YouTube channels—you know the ones—where the myth-making and idol worship really started spiraling out of control.

You and guys like you have basically turned the man into a complete joke.

ruggedhawk20 said:Nah. That’s not exactly showing respect to a dead man.

You and hundreds of thousands of other people just like you—using a dead man to fuel your little internet adventures.

Leave the guy alone already. Either stick to the historical facts—or just shut up.

Nobody gives a damn about this nonsense anymore.

And especially not his former fans—you know, the ones who actually watched him with their own eyes, heard him firsthand, and loved him with everything they had. Back when he was still around...

Then you've got those YouTube channels—you know the ones—where the myth-making and idol worship really started spiraling out of control.

You and guys like you have basically turned the man into a complete joke.

Nuvolari, I don't know what's up with you, but every time I praise Ayrton Senna, you twist it to make it sound like I'm mocking him. Like I'm making fun of the "Rain Man" who used to pull miracles out of nowhere in weather just like what we're seeing right now in New York, overtaking everyone in some beat-up four-wheeled junker that looked more like a Formula 1 car. It's a shame they stopped the race in Monaco back in '84 on Jean-Marie Balestre's orders just to help Alain Prost hold the lead—because otherwise, if the race had gone to the end, the king Ayrton Senna wouldn't have just overtaken Alain Prost, he probably would have lapped him too.... How is a worm supposed to race a speedboat....😁🙏🤦

Dana Perez6 said:
Nuvolari, I don't know what's up with you, but every time I praise Ayrton Senna, you twist it to make it sound like I'm mocking him. Like I'm making fun of the "Rain Man" who used to pull miracles out of nowhere in weather just like what we're seeing right now in New York, overtaking everyone in some beat-up four-wheeled junker that looked more like a Formula 1 car. It's a shame they stopped the race in Monaco back in '84 on Jean-Marie Balestre's orders just to help Alain Prost hold the lead—because otherwise, if the race had gone to the end, the king Ayrton Senna wouldn't have just overtaken Alain Prost, he probably would have lapped him too.... How is a worm supposed to race a speedboat....😁🙏🤦

It was top-tier driving by Ayrton Senna, but realistically, the race should have been called off because visibility was zero. If the race had been halted just one lap later, Ayrton Senna would be the winner. I won't get into whether Jean-Marie Balestre intentionally pulled that stunt to protect Alain Prost's position or not; personally, I couldn't care less.

And Ayrton Senna wasn't even the fastest man out there that day under those specific conditions; it was someone else who would be completely forgotten today if it weren't for holding the Nürburgring Nordschleife record for wet weather racing and qualifying.

By the way, that Toleman looks quite interesting with those two rear wings.

For those who aren't particularly well-versed in the nuances of the 1984 chassis, here is a brief observation regarding the Toleman.
The design team behind this car was quite fascinating. It was an excellent machine that simply lacked about 110 horsepower in qualifying and roughly 37 horsepower during the race to truly contend at the highest level.

For those who aren't familiar with the nuances of the 1984 cars, here is a brief overview regarding the Toleman.
They were quite fascinating designers. It was an excellent chassis that simply lacked about 110 horsepower in qualifying and roughly 35 horsepower during the race to truly be considered elite.

http://www.gurneyflap.com/tolemantg184.html

Dana Perez6, do you actually know why Teo Fabi is better than Ayrton Senna?

mellowtiger83 said:For those who aren't familiar with the nuances of the 1984 cars, here is a brief overview regarding the Toleman.
They were quite fascinating designers. It was an excellent chassis that simply lacked about 110 horsepower in qualifying and roughly 35 horsepower during the race to truly be considered elite.

http://www.gurneyflap.com/tolemantg184.html

That famous Toleman has been described as everything from a glorified tractor pulling gear around the track to a chassis with exceptional handling that was only 50 hp shy of the top-tier beasts. I wonder what kind of version we're going to run into tomorrow.

mellowtiger83 said:Ayrton Senna managed to lap Damon Hill while they were in the exact same car with about 17 laps left in the race!
Well, I'm not sure what else to say. Aside from suggesting you just turn on the TV and watch the replay.

How many points did that actually net him?

Damon Hill got 6—and let's be real, that "underrated" car (if you listen to the hardcore Ayrton Senna fans) dragged him all the way to second place. So, what position did Ayrton Senna manage to pull?

cosmiccyclist8 said:How many points did that actually net him?

Damon Hill got 6—and let's be real, that "underrated" car (if you listen to the hardcore Ayrton Senna fans) dragged him all the way to second place. So, what position did Ayrton Senna manage to pull?

Look, Ale, it doesn't matter if the bolid was good; Hill was still lapped!

Regardless.

Stop digging yourself into a hole, Ale. You’ve got this weird little version of reality that isn't true, yet you just cling to it.

And frankly, who cares what position Senna finished in? Does a driver have to finish every single race? He can't hit a wall, and he shouldn't get squeezed at the start, I suppose?

It seems to me you just don't grasp the nuances of racing.

But sure, by some stroke of pure luck, Senna ended up with zero points.

And...

cosmiccyclist8 said:That famous Toleman has been described as everything from a glorified tractor pulling gear around the track to a chassis with exceptional handling that was only 50 hp shy of the top-tier beasts. I wonder what kind of version we're going to run into tomorrow.

A decent bolid doesn't mean it was in the same league as McLaren and the rest. Being 50 hp down in a car that’s heavier than the top-tier ones isn't trivial. One has to consider the power-to-weight ratio. And when you talk about qualifying, we're looking at a deficit of roughly 150-200 hp, to say nothing of the rest.

A car like that, even in the hands of a truly great driver, might fight for maybe 10th place at most.

The bolid wasn't some junker; it was a solidly put-together car hampered by an anemic engine and a budget deficit.
It was a far cry from the absolute garbage that used to show up in F1 back in those years.
F1 had many more teams back then, and quite a few couldn't even make the cut for the race.
In that regard, Toleman was actually successful because they at least guaranteed a spot on the grid.