Brain drain risks after joining the European Union?

briskdrifter3 said:Has anyone else given serious thought to the mass exodus of labor once we join the European Union?
If we actually make the leap in 2013—though, if you ask me, that’s still a big "if"—and then endure several more years where we aren't even permitted to work abroad (since the member states get to decide whether to ban us for three, five, or seven years)... we are heading straight toward a massive wave of emigration from America. And I'm not just talking about individuals; we're looking at entire working-age families, including young children, packing up and leaving. Even now, there's already a significant number of people fleeing this swamp of a country, but once those bureaucratic hurdles are cleared... well, that exodus will multiply exponentially. It’s precisely what happened in Poland, the Czech Republic, and similar nations. They managed to absorb the shock somewhat successfully, mostly because they have larger populations and, frankly, much healthier economies than ours...
But what does this mean for us?
The ratio of employed people to dependents is currently sitting at roughly 1:1, and things are going to get significantly worse. Our highly educated youth—the very backbone of our workforce—will be the first to leave. These are the people who drive the consumer base that retailers rely on; young adults and young families are the primary drivers of spending. So, who is left to fund the budget through income tax? Who is going to shop at the malls and indirectly support the treasury? Pensioners? Minimum wage workers who can barely afford groceries? Or perhaps the merchants themselves, who would essentially be buying from their own shadows?
Joining the European Union threatens to trigger an economic collapse unlike anything we've seen; we are practically charging like sheep into a slaughterhouse. We won't even have recovered from the current crisis by the time we join; if anything, the entry will only deepen the wound. Compared to what lies ahead for us, Greece looks like a paradise.
In fact, I am personally weighing the option of moving abroad with my wife and child—and if an opportunity presents itself in a few years (one I intend to pursue actively rather than wait for), I am gone. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about America or
my national identity. I might return once I retire, but my children will likely stay abroad. I am simply fed up with the incompetence here and the miserable wages. I possess specialized skills that are easily marketable overseas. Most of my friends are thinking along these exact same lines...

Staying out of the European Union just to prevent brain drain isn't a real solution. EU nations can still open their markets to workers from America even if we aren't members—just look at how other countries handled labor from the former America back in the day. What's your Plan B then? Close the borders and make it illegal to leave?

Brian Wood said:I honestly don't expect any massive exodus here. I mean, anyone who actually wants to pack up and leave can pretty much do it whenever they feel like it today; sure, it might be a little more of a hassle and
maybe a bit more complicated, but nothing is impossible, right? Personally, I'm thinking we'll probably just see a tiny trickle, maybe something similar to what happened in
Canada, so basically just a minimal amount of people moving on.

It’s actually quite a bit harder than people think. You can see this in the massive wave of Eastern Europeans who headed to the United Kingdom and Ireland back in 2004. It wasn't until the doors were swung wide open that we saw the true mass exodus. Plus, the Canadians are significantly wealthier than us—honestly, they were the wealthiest of the group joining back then, so it makes perfect sense that they had the least reason to leave.

Linda Johnson15 said:I honestly don't see it happening... they don't even seem to know how to handle their own people. If you're looking to move abroad for work, you’ve got to meet way more requirements and fight tooth and nail against the local workforce there.
The reality is, you'll have a slight edge over most of the world—take Norway, for example. They prioritize their own unemployed first, then Scandinavians, then those from the European Union, and finally everyone else. Joining the EU gives us a seat at one level of that ladder, but it’s not going to be a game-changer.

At the end of the day, a high-quality worker can land a job anywhere regardless of where they're from, especially if they've got specialized skills or they're top-tier experts.

Locals are mostly just worrying about competing with cheaper labor coming in from places like Romania and Bulgaria. Our people are too valuable to settle for entry-level roles just to survive—jobs they could easily grab abroad without any hassle—only to have someone from Bulgaria or Romania swoop in and take that same spot right under their noses. That's where the real friction is going to happen.

Unemployment in Northern Europe is staying pretty low and trending downward. We aren't trying to scale Everest here; we just want to catch up to everyone else in the European Union—assuming certain countries don't decide to take advantage of that seven-year grace period.

Linda Johnson15 said:I honestly don't see it happening... they don't even seem to know how to handle their own people. If you're looking to move abroad for work, you’ve got to meet way more requirements and fight tooth and nail against the local workforce there.
The reality is, you'll have a slight edge over most of the world—take Norway, for example. They prioritize their own unemployed first, then Scandinavians, then those from the European Union, and finally everyone else. Joining the EU gives us a seat at one level of that ladder, but it’s not going to be a game-changer.

At the end of the day, a high-quality worker can land a job anywhere regardless of where they're from, especially if they've got specialized skills or they're top-tier experts.

Locals are mostly just worrying about competing with cheaper labor coming in from places like Romania and Bulgaria. Our people are too valuable to settle for entry-level roles just to survive—jobs they could easily grab abroad without any hassle—only to have someone from Bulgaria or Romania swoop in and take that same spot right under their noses. That's where the real friction is going to happen.

Only a tiny fraction of people fall into that category. There are plenty of folks with "regular" jobs who will feel the impact quite heavily.

Linda Johnson15 said:I honestly don't see it happening... they don't even seem to know how to handle their own people. If you're looking to move abroad for work, you’ve got to meet way more requirements and fight tooth and nail against the local workforce there.
The reality is, you'll have a slight edge over most of the world—take Norway, for example. They prioritize their own unemployed first, then Scandinavians, then those from the European Union, and finally everyone else. Joining the EU gives us a seat at one level of that ladder, but it’s not going to be a game-changer.

At the end of the day, a high-quality worker can land a job anywhere regardless of where they're from, especially if they've got specialized skills or they're top-tier experts.

Locals are mostly just worrying about competing with cheaper labor coming in from places like Romania and Bulgaria. Our people are too valuable to settle for entry-level roles just to survive—jobs they could easily grab abroad without any hassle—only to have someone from Bulgaria or Romania swoop in and take that same spot right under their noses. That's where the real friction is going to happen.

Why would anyone from Bulgaria or Romania come to America when they have the rest of Western Europe wide open to them?

ironstag8 said:briskdrifter3, just take a look at where our young people are heading for school and what they’re actually graduating with—then tell me honestly, how many of them do you think will actually land a high-paying job out there in the States?

It might not be a high-paying job, but it'll pay better than what they can get in America, especially if their salary back home is $0.00.

briskdrifter3 said:Alright, look—Spain might not be exactly the Promised Land, but there are plenty of other spots in Europe that are perfectly decent. All the Nordic countries, the United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, Italy, maybe even France... I might even go so far as to say Canada (don't come for me on that one). You have to admit, in these places, you’ll earn a higher wage for the exact same job compared to what we see here in America—and you'll live better once you actually have your paperwork sorted... you know, a permanent residency and a proper work permit. I’m not even counting temporary gigs, because honestly, even if you're highly educated, the pay won't match.
For instance, a colleague of mine was over in the United Kingdom recently, and the place is absolutely swamped with people from Poland. He was in a neighborhood in some smaller town where you don't hear a word of English—just Polish—where even the street signs are in Polish. Historically, the United Kingdom had those restrictions limiting Poles to seven years maximum after joining the European Union.
We probably won't face those kinds of bans... since there are only about four million of us, most countries would likely assimilate us pretty quickly.

Actually, the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Sweden were the only ones to fully open their doors back in 2004, which explains why everyone rushed there at once. The rest of us dealt with various transition periods—Germany and Austria had a maximum of seven years, which just recently expired.

They probably won't bother with exemptions for us. We're such a small group and we handle our own entries, so they can absorb us without any real trouble.

Jack Johnson6 said:Actually, the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Sweden were the only ones to fully open their doors back in 2004, which explains why everyone rushed there at once. The rest of us dealt with various transition periods—Germany and Austria had a maximum of seven years, which just recently expired.

They probably won't bother with exemptions for us. We're such a small group and we handle our own entries, so they can absorb us without any real trouble.

Both Austria and Germany have already announced they intend to utilize the deferral.
However, let's be real—that deferral is really only meant for workers they don't actually need.

I’m not worried about the brain drain from the European Union; I’m actually worried about all those people from the European Union moving here. Just the other day, I was chatting with some colleagues about how once we join the European Union, foreign engineers will be the ones handling all the major projects, while we'll be lucky if we even land a job near the construction site.

Ryan Gomez4 said:I’m not worried about the brain drain from the European Union; I’m actually worried about all those people from the European Union moving here. Just the other day, I was chatting with some colleagues about how once we join the European Union, foreign engineers will be the ones handling all the major projects, while we'll be lucky if we even land a job near the construction site.

The real issue, though, is that they don't even have enough engineers left to cover their own domestic needs, let alone have any surplus to send over to America.

briskdrifter3 said:Has anyone else given serious thought to the mass exodus of labor once we join the European Union?
If we actually make the leap in 2013—though, if you ask me, that’s still a big "if"—and then endure several more years where we aren't even permitted to work abroad (since the member states get to decide whether to ban us for three, five, or seven years)... we are heading straight toward a massive wave of emigration from America. And I'm not just talking about individuals; we're looking at entire working-age families, including young children, packing up and leaving. Even now, there's already a significant number of people fleeing this swamp of a country, but once those bureaucratic hurdles are cleared... well, that exodus will multiply exponentially. It’s precisely what happened in Poland, the Czech Republic, and similar nations. They managed to absorb the shock somewhat successfully, mostly because they have larger populations and, frankly, much healthier economies than ours...
But what does this mean for us?
The ratio of employed people to dependents is currently sitting at roughly 1:1, and things are going to get significantly worse. Our highly educated youth—the very backbone of our workforce—will be the first to leave. These are the people who drive the consumer base that retailers rely on; young adults and young families are the primary drivers of spending. So, who is left to fund the budget through income tax? Who is going to shop at the malls and indirectly support the treasury? Pensioners? Minimum wage workers who can barely afford groceries? Or perhaps the merchants themselves, who would essentially be buying from their own shadows?
Joining the European Union threatens to trigger an economic collapse unlike anything we've seen; we are practically charging like sheep into a slaughterhouse. We won't even have recovered from the current crisis by the time we join; if anything, the entry will only deepen the wound. Compared to what lies ahead for us, Greece looks like a paradise.
In fact, I am personally weighing the option of moving abroad with my wife and child—and if an opportunity presents itself in a few years (one I intend to pursue actively rather than wait for), I am gone. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about America or
my national identity. I might return once I retire, but my children will likely stay abroad. I am simply fed up with the incompetence here and the miserable wages. I possess specialized skills that are easily marketable overseas. Most of my friends are thinking along these exact same lines...

Even if there isn't a mass exodus, the Republic of America is headed straight for a deep depression.

The "younger" generations today are just poorly raised—lazy, soft, and completely incapable of handling real-world problems. And honestly, that applies to a huge chunk of the "highly educated" crowd too.

I think we’re a bit too hard on ourselves sometimes. Speaking from my own experience—having worked with folks from both the West and the Far East—our people are more than capable of holding their own. In fact, they’re often left staring in disbelief at how much we can actually pull off under pressure. It probably comes down to the fact that around here, you have to be resourceful just to survive, whereas over there, everything is so structured that they rarely ever have to improvise.
The issue isn't a lack of talent or competence; the real headache is the systemic organization and management. We're talking about failures at the high-level executive tier, not at the actual workstation.
If you’re a sharp individual with the right skills and experience, you’ll find work. Of course, being a highly trained specialist is a prerequisite, and if you've got those credentials, doors open everywhere. I mean, where else are you going to go to find a turnkey expert? No matter what you pay them, you're getting a bargain.
Our massive problem, however, is that given the current state of our economy, fewer and fewer people are getting the chance to actually "learn the ropes." Even without the whole brain drain phenomenon, we're still losing ground.

Jeremy Castillo7 said:I think we’re a bit too hard on ourselves sometimes. Speaking from my own experience—having worked with folks from both the West and the Far East—our people are more than capable of holding their own. In fact, they’re often left staring in disbelief at how much we can actually pull off under pressure. It probably comes down to the fact that around here, you have to be resourceful just to survive, whereas over there, everything is so structured that they rarely ever have to improvise.
The issue isn't a lack of talent or competence; the real headache is the systemic organization and management. We're talking about failures at the high-level executive tier, not at the actual workstation.
If you’re a sharp individual with the right skills and experience, you’ll find work. Of course, being a highly trained specialist is a prerequisite, and if you've got those credentials, doors open everywhere. I mean, where else are you going to go to find a turnkey expert? No matter what you pay them, you're getting a bargain.
Our massive problem, however, is that given the current state of our economy, fewer and fewer people are getting the chance to actually "learn the ropes." Even without the whole brain drain phenomenon, we're still losing ground.

I agree—anyone who managed to survive in this swamp of a country isn't just a specialist, they're practically a superhero. As a nation, we underestimate ourselves far too much in certain areas. I'd argue there's no one in Europe quite like us when it comes to improvising and working within tight constraints and limited resources... which is an invaluable skill set for any field operative. On the flip side, organized systems feel completely foreign to us—a direct consequence of living in regions marked by constant warfare and shifting borders. My grandfather was born in the Kingdom of America, my father in the NDH, I grew up in socialist America, my daughter was born in America, and if God wills it, my grandkids will surely be born in some tenth different state.
And then someone has the nerve to talk about a "well-ordered state"? Honestly, once things finally get organized, they fall apart!!! It'll be the same story with this America.

Jeremy Castillo7 said:I think we’re a bit too hard on ourselves sometimes. Speaking from my own experience—having worked with folks from both the West and the Far East—our people are more than capable of holding their own. In fact, they’re often left staring in disbelief at how much we can actually pull off under pressure. It probably comes down to the fact that around here, you have to be resourceful just to survive, whereas over there, everything is so structured that they rarely ever have to improvise.
The issue isn't a lack of talent or competence; the real headache is the systemic organization and management. We're talking about failures at the high-level executive tier, not at the actual workstation.
If you’re a sharp individual with the right skills and experience, you’ll find work. Of course, being a highly trained specialist is a prerequisite, and if you've got those credentials, doors open everywhere. I mean, where else are you going to go to find a turnkey expert? No matter what you pay them, you're getting a bargain.
Our massive problem, however, is that given the current state of our economy, fewer and fewer people are getting the chance to actually "learn the ropes." Even without the whole brain drain phenomenon, we're still losing ground.

Well, I’m a "finished expert." I’ve got the overseas degree, passed my certification here in the States, I’ve got my Master’s, and twenty years under my belt in this field. I speak multiple languages, too. And yet, nobody is lining up to hire me.

Smart, skilled professionals now have the freedom to move elsewhere—if not within the European Union, then perhaps to Canada or Australia... many who had the means and the desire have already left. Meanwhile, European nations facing labor shortages, like Germany or Austria, are actively easing immigration paths for the talent they need. Austria is even rolling out its "RWR card," which essentially gives any educated professional a shot at settling down and finding work there.
So, I don't expect joining the European Union to fundamentally change the brain drain situation. It will likely impact those with fewer qualifications more significantly, though they often harbor a rather distorted view of how much prosperity actually exists within the European Union...
There will certainly be some migration, but I doubt it will be anything transformative...
The Polish, for instance, headed out in droves—mostly to Ireland and the United Kingdom—though we're starting to see them head back home in significant numbers.

Thomas Ortiz3 said:Smart, skilled professionals now have the freedom to move elsewhere—if not within the European Union, then perhaps to Canada or Australia... many who had the means and the desire have already left. Meanwhile, European nations facing labor shortages, like Germany or Austria, are actively easing immigration paths for the talent they need. Austria is even rolling out its "RWR card," which essentially gives any educated professional a shot at settling down and finding work there.
So, I don't expect joining the European Union to fundamentally change the brain drain situation. It will likely impact those with fewer qualifications more significantly, though they often harbor a rather distorted view of how much prosperity actually exists within the European Union...
There will certainly be some migration, but I doubt it will be anything transformative...
The Polish, for instance, headed out in droves—mostly to Ireland and the United Kingdom—though we're starting to see them head back home in significant numbers.

Migration is inevitable because we are, by tradition, an emigrant nation. Once the final hurdles are cleared—that is, once it becomes as simple as buying a bus ticket or hopping on a bicycle—then the exodus will truly explode. Even now, leaving isn't easy, especially if you're trying to move an entire family with children in tow. Sorting out work permits involves an exhausting amount of paperwork. It also tends to deter potential employers, who simply don't want the headache of dealing with immigrants.
As for the whole "honey and milk" idea, I know for a fact that groceries are cheaper across Europe, clothing and shoes are cheaper, and consumer electronics are cheaper... basically, you can eat better, dress better, and furnish an apartment much more easily than we can here. That is a plain reality, stemming from the fact that we produce nothing of our own.
The only things that are pricier are housing and land—though even that is manageable through a functional rental market, unlike our situation where the only reliable option seems to be taking out a massive mortgage. The alternative is being an off-the-books renter, living in constant fear that your landlord might marry off his son and toss you onto the street with fifteen days' notice.
So, I am genuinely curious what would stop a twenty-something with a high school diploma or a college degree from at least giving it a shot abroad—I'm just saying, *trying*—and if every third person actually succeeds in finding steady work, we'll still be in a crisis. There won't be enough workers to plug the budget holes we're already struggling with, even without the emigration.
It only takes a little... just a tiny bit.

briskdrifter3 said:Migration is inevitable because we are, by tradition, an emigrant nation. Once the final hurdles are cleared—that is, once it becomes as simple as buying a bus ticket or hopping on a bicycle—then the exodus will truly explode. Even now, leaving isn't easy, especially if you're trying to move an entire family with children in tow. Sorting out work permits involves an exhausting amount of paperwork. It also tends to deter potential employers, who simply don't want the headache of dealing with immigrants.
As for the whole "honey and milk" idea, I know for a fact that groceries are cheaper across Europe, clothing and shoes are cheaper, and consumer electronics are cheaper... basically, you can eat better, dress better, and furnish an apartment much more easily than we can here. That is a plain reality, stemming from the fact that we produce nothing of our own.
The only things that are pricier are housing and land—though even that is manageable through a functional rental market, unlike our situation where the only reliable option seems to be taking out a massive mortgage. The alternative is being an off-the-books renter, living in constant fear that your landlord might marry off his son and toss you onto the street with fifteen days' notice.
So, I am genuinely curious what would stop a twenty-something with a high school diploma or a college degree from at least giving it a shot abroad—I'm just saying, *trying*—and if every third person actually succeeds in finding steady work, we'll still be in a crisis. There won't be enough workers to plug the budget holes we're already struggling with, even without the emigration.
It only takes a little... just a tiny bit.

Fifty years ago, we were likely just a traditional land of emigrants, but today, compared to most of Europe, we’re seen as a place where family ties actually still mean something—unlike the more fragmented social structures you see in the USA or the United Kingdom. Even the wage gap isn't what it used to be; when you factor in the shadow economy, local salaries aren't exactly bottom-of-the-barrel. Then there's the language barrier. Most people here struggle with foreign tongues; you rarely hear anyone speaking German, Italian, or French, with everyone just defaulting to English. A young person can pick up a language quickly enough, but it remains a hurdle nonetheless...

The talented people who wanted out have mostly already left—if not for Europe, then somewhere further afield. As for those lacking quality, we have more than enough of them here anyway (just look at the unemployment rates). A large portion of our unemployed are long-term cases, and they won't find much luck looking for work abroad either. Sure, there will be some brain drain, likely mostly from the young and educated, but I don't see it hitting us that hard. The real issue in the Republic of America isn't brain drain; that's just a symptom, so I don't see any point in making a monster out of it...

When it comes to staples like honey and milk, I’ve noticed that groceries are consistently more affordable throughout Europe. The same goes for clothing, footwear, and consumer electronics... essentially, you can eat better, dress better, and furnish a home much more easily anywhere else but here...

You aren't wrong, though that's beside the point. It’s arguably better to be unemployed in America than in, say, Germany, where an immigrant starts with virtually no rights... though every situation is unique and generalizations are risky. The reality is that many people in America at least have the security of owning their own homes. If someone decides to emigrate, they'll likely look for work locally first, even if those jobs aren't exactly easy. Still, there's no doubt many will start scouring foreign job boards, and some will undoubtedly find what they're looking for...

I really wonder what’s going to stop a young person in their early twenties—whether they have a high school diploma or a degree—from at least attempting to find work abroad. I’m just saying, if they try, every third one might actually succeed in landing a job. We're facing a crisis here. There won't be enough people left to plug the budget holes we're already struggling with, even without the emigration...
It only takes a little... just a tiny bit...

Even if every third person actually leaves—which I find highly unlikely—we still have more than enough capacity to meet demand. Besides, the top-tier talent will always find a way to emigrate anyway...

Thomas Ortiz3 said:Smart, skilled professionals now have the freedom to move elsewhere—if not within the European Union, then perhaps to Canada or Australia... many who had the means and the desire have already left. Meanwhile, European nations facing labor shortages, like Germany or Austria, are actively easing immigration paths for the talent they need. Austria is even rolling out its "RWR card," which essentially gives any educated professional a shot at settling down and finding work there.
So, I don't expect joining the European Union to fundamentally change the brain drain situation. It will likely impact those with fewer qualifications more significantly, though they often harbor a rather distorted view of how much prosperity actually exists within the European Union...
There will certainly be some migration, but I doubt it will be anything transformative...
The Polish, for instance, headed out in droves—mostly to Ireland and the United Kingdom—though we're starting to see them head back home in significant numbers.

I've already done a little digging into this. 😁

here is the link to the RWR card

You can rack up a decent amount of points; interestingly enough, you're required to know either English OR German...

Gerald Chavez7 said:I've already done a little digging into this. 😁

here is the link to the RWR card

You can rack up a decent amount of points; interestingly enough, you're required to know either English OR German...

Regarding the actual regulations, language isn't technically required by law, but if you don't speak German, most opportunities vanish before they even start. In the US, we don't see the same level of emphasis on foreign languages compared to places like Canada, the Czech Republic, or Canada... which makes sense given the geography. Still, the pool of employers not asking for German is predictably small...

Gerald Chavez7 said:I've already done a little digging into this. 😁

here is the link to the RWR card

You can rack up a decent amount of points; interestingly enough, you're required to know either English OR German...

I have been studying the RWR card quite closely. I currently sit at 71 points, which places me in the highly qualified category—it certainly gave me pause for thought. I am fluent in English, naturally, but my German would likely require a quick refresher through some sort of intensive conversation course...

briskdrifter3 said:I have been studying the RWR card quite closely. I currently sit at 71 points, which places me in the highly qualified category—it certainly gave me pause for thought. I am fluent in English, naturally, but my German would likely require a quick refresher through some sort of intensive conversation course...

How on earth did you end up with an odd number? 😉

I’m sitting at 66 right now, but I’m aiming for 80 in a year or two. 😁

Anyway, I get it—the employer is what actually matters in the end—but having this just makes navigating the bureaucracy a little less painful...

Gerald Chavez7 said:How on earth did you end up with an odd number? 😉

I’m sitting at 66 right now, but I’m aiming for 80 in a year or two. 😁

Anyway, I get it—the employer is what actually matters in the end—but having this just makes navigating the bureaucracy a little less painful...

Well, it could be an odd number—say, 15 + 2*3 + ...

of course 😵

A crucial factor here—if you happen to be highly skilled—is that your family can tag along without needing to grasp a word of German. Personally, I wouldn't be able to handle being separated from them...

briskdrifter3 said:A crucial factor here—if you happen to be highly skilled—is that your family can tag along without needing to grasp a word of German. Personally, I wouldn't be able to handle being separated from them...

That is precisely my point. A highly skilled professional can leave regardless of EU membership status. You mentioned that family separation is your main hurdle, and I'm sure you aren't alone in that feeling. Everyone has their breaking point, of course, but we are nowhere near a mass exodus...🤷