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Brain drain risks after joining the European Union?

Started by briskdrifter3 · · 👁 6 views · 62 replies

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Participants briskdrifter3Brian Woodironstag8Bradley SmithLinda Johnson15Scott Rodriguez19Larry Williams5lonebadger20Andrew Barrett4Jack Johnson6Ryan Gomez4hiddenviper13Jeremy Castillo7Thomas Ortiz3Gerald Chavez7Jerry Clark72Benjamin Rodriguez2Emily Fox2Gary Cooper3ruggeddriver70John Chase3Jeffrey Watson13Roger Fowlermistyrider64 …
Gerald Chavez7 Gerald Chavez7 Active Member
173 messages
joined Apr 2021
#41 ·
Thomas Ortiz3 said:That is precisely my point. A highly skilled professional can leave regardless of EU membership status. You mentioned that family separation is your main hurdle, and I'm sure you aren't alone in that feeling. Everyone has their breaking point, of course, but we are nowhere near a mass exodus...🤷

This hits the nail on the head. In my field (natural sciences), nearly half of my entire generation moved abroad—and honestly, it's been that way for decades. For anyone actually talented, finding a way out was never really the problem...
Linda Johnson15 Linda Johnson15 Active Member
98 messages
joined Feb 2011
#42 ·
Gerald Chavez7 said:This hits the nail on the head. In my field (natural sciences), nearly half of my entire generation moved abroad—and honestly, it's been that way for decades. For anyone actually talented, finding a way out was never really the problem...

👍

Exactly... our country operates just like Mamić running Dinamo Chicago 😁 as soon as someone shows real talent, he sells them off to a foreign club, leaving the team with nothing but mediocre players. That’s the Republic of America for you. We all love to call ourselves experts, but you could count on one hand how many actual "specialists" are still living and working here, actually contributing to the nation's progress...

Sometimes I look at the absolute amateurs I have to deal with—having to explain their own jobs to them or recite entire sections of legal codes just to get things moving—and I feel physically sick. Our government administration is absolutely crawling with these self-proclaimed "experts"...
Jerry Clark72 Jerry Clark72 Member
30 messages
joined Jul 2012
#43 ·
I’m not exactly convinced that only the highly skilled folks are going to be heading out.

A buddy of mine used to pull shifts on a construction site just as a general laborer, making about $15 an hour.

The company was owned by some local guys, so the whole crew was basically all Americans. If the process for moving to Germany were actually made that easy, way more people would be packing their bags to go work there.
briskdrifter3 briskdrifter3 Active MemberOP
63 messages
joined Oct 2012
#44 ·
Jerry Clark72 said:I’m not exactly convinced that only the highly skilled folks are going to be heading out.

A buddy of mine used to pull shifts on a construction site just as a general laborer, making about $15 an hour.

The company was owned by some local guys, so the whole crew was basically all Americans. If the process for moving to Germany were actually made that easy, way more people would be packing their bags to go work there.

That’s the truth of it; I have friends in construction myself. Everyone would jump at the chance if the paperwork weren't such a nightmare. Who in their right mind wants to toil away for pennies all day on a job site? It isn't as simple as just showing up, either—you can't just wander onto a site; someone—some firm—has to officially call you out there.
Thomas Ortiz3 Thomas Ortiz3 Active Member
70 messages
joined May 2012
#45 ·
briskdrifter3 said:That’s the truth of it; I have friends in construction myself. Everyone would jump at the chance if the paperwork weren't such a nightmare. Who in their right mind wants to toil away for pennies all day on a job site? It isn't as simple as just showing up, either—you can't just wander onto a site; someone—some firm—has to officially call you out there.

It sounds easy enough to say people want to leave, but you have to ask why anyone would hire our local crews when they can get Romanian workers much cheaper. Sure, in Germany it might end up being more expensive than here, but I doubt there's much left after you factor in housing, food, and travel back to America. High-skilled professionals are driven by ambition—and money, since making it at home is nearly impossible—but for low-skilled labor, it’s almost always just about the paycheck. Those golden days of guest workers are long gone...
Linda Johnson15 Linda Johnson15 Active Member
98 messages
joined Feb 2011
#46 ·
Thomas Ortiz3 said:It sounds easy enough to say people want to leave, but you have to ask why anyone would hire our local crews when they can get Romanian workers much cheaper. Sure, in Germany it might end up being more expensive than here, but I doubt there's much left after you factor in housing, food, and travel back to America. High-skilled professionals are driven by ambition—and money, since making it at home is nearly impossible—but for low-skilled labor, it’s almost always just about the paycheck. Those golden days of guest workers are long gone...

That's true... for me, it wasn't all about the cash... in the beginning, I was making what my colleagues were making here (around $1,100 gross), but things definitely improved over time. What I really got early on was the chance to prove myself through hard work, earn a better wage, move up, and experience life in a developed country where things actually function the way they're supposed to. The opportunity was there; I just had to take it.

A lot of people here focus solely on the immediate cash because they don't have much to begin with. It's tough to pack up and go abroad to work for two or three years for basically the same pay you'd get at home while you try to build something... they want the big bucks right out of the gate. So, they just stay put.

But hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Thomas Ortiz3 Thomas Ortiz3 Active Member
70 messages
joined May 2012
#47 ·
Linda Johnson15 said:That's true... for me, it wasn't all about the cash... in the beginning, I was making what my colleagues were making here (around $1,100 gross), but things definitely improved over time. What I really got early on was the chance to prove myself through hard work, earn a better wage, move up, and experience life in a developed country where things actually function the way they're supposed to. The opportunity was there; I just had to take it.

A lot of people here focus solely on the immediate cash because they don't have much to begin with. It's tough to pack up and go abroad to work for two or three years for basically the same pay you'd get at home while you try to build something... they want the big bucks right out of the gate. So, they just stay put.

But hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

In my view, Norway is one of the best places to move to if you're highly skilled, though they aren't part of the European Union anyway. Good luck in Norway...😉
briskdrifter3 briskdrifter3 Active MemberOP
63 messages
joined Oct 2012
#48 ·
Thomas Ortiz3 said:It sounds easy enough to say people want to leave, but you have to ask why anyone would hire our local crews when they can get Romanian workers much cheaper. Sure, in Germany it might end up being more expensive than here, but I doubt there's much left after you factor in housing, food, and travel back to America. High-skilled professionals are driven by ambition—and money, since making it at home is nearly impossible—but for low-skilled labor, it’s almost always just about the paycheck. Those golden days of guest workers are long gone...

That’s not quite right.
I have a brother-in-law working on a construction site in Germany at the moment. He left because he was absolutely fed up with our employers—the constant failure to pay on time is a chronic issue in the construction industry here. In America, your average builder might actually manage to collect maybe 70% of what they’re owed, and even then, it comes with delays stretching over a year. There were times he’d be waiting four months just to see any cash at all... he actually had to borrow money just to cover his rent and basic groceries. You couldn't dream of supporting a family with that kind of cash flow. In Germany, it’s a different story; the money hits the account regularly, and for a skilled tradesman like him, it's two to four times what he'd make here, naturally. The catch is that European immigration policy is far stricter than it was 30 or 40 years ago. You can work for a maximum of nine months straight before needing at least a three-month break, and you must be tied to a firm—either theirs or ours—that has a contract established there. Since most builders don't speak German, of course, they are essentially forced to go through our private construction firms; you need a connection in those companies because the interest is massive. It isn't as simple as knowing how to install drywall and just buying a plane ticket. It's a huge barrier that will only vanish once the transition period following EU entry is fully settled.
The whole argument about Romanians and Bulgarians doesn't hold water. Everyone knows exactly who does what and how they are perceived, as people from all sorts of countries have been migrating to Germany for years. It isn't just Romanians or Bulgarians arriving; that’s nothing new. A German employer will always—and I mean ALWAYS—prefer to hire a worker from the former America—especially Americans or Canadians—over Romanians, Bulgarians, or Turks, who are mostly used as low-paid auxiliary labor. That has been the reality for a long time, and experience proves it. Just ask any construction worker.
Once you strip away the bureaucratic hurdles, you'll see we'll be left without craftsmen for any meaningful construction work, and for a very simple reason. As a builder, you're already out in the field, separated from your family anyway, so it really doesn't matter if you're 124 miles or 622 miles from home (since you aren't coming back every night regardless). If you're single, the logic holds even more. No one is going to slave away here for a few thousand Kuna—which you might not even see for six months—when you can grab 1,000 to 1,500 Euros right off the bat in Germany.
Just think back to this thread in ten years, when you'll want someone to hang some drywall in an apartment and won't be able to find a soul who knows how to do it (except perhaps for some drunk handyman who claims he can fix everything). Not to mention the impossibility of finding crews capable of actual building construction.
Even now, America is facing a shortage of qualified professionals across almost every sector (just look at the idiots occupying various jobs around you), and it’s going to get much, much worse because people always migrate toward better opportunities—especially those who actually possess skills.

I won't even attempt to imagine what America will look like in 10 or 20 years. Just a mass of fools living off the budget, wondering, like a bunch of clueless tourists, where all the money went...
Thomas Ortiz3 Thomas Ortiz3 Active Member
70 messages
joined May 2012
#49 ·
briskdrifter3 said:That’s not quite right.
I have a brother-in-law working on a construction site in Germany at the moment. He left because he was absolutely fed up with our employers—the constant failure to pay on time is a chronic issue in the construction industry here. In America, your average builder might actually manage to collect maybe 70% of what they’re owed, and even then, it comes with delays stretching over a year. There were times he’d be waiting four months just to see any cash at all... he actually had to borrow money just to cover his rent and basic groceries. You couldn't dream of supporting a family with that kind of cash flow. In Germany, it’s a different story; the money hits the account regularly, and for a skilled tradesman like him, it's two to four times what he'd make here, naturally. The catch is that European immigration policy is far stricter than it was 30 or 40 years ago. You can work for a maximum of nine months straight before needing at least a three-month break, and you must be tied to a firm—either theirs or ours—that has a contract established there. Since most builders don't speak German, of course, they are essentially forced to go through our private construction firms; you need a connection in those companies because the interest is massive. It isn't as simple as knowing how to install drywall and just buying a plane ticket. It's a huge barrier that will only vanish once the transition period following EU entry is fully settled.
The whole argument about Romanians and Bulgarians doesn't hold water. Everyone knows exactly who does what and how they are perceived, as people from all sorts of countries have been migrating to Germany for years. It isn't just Romanians or Bulgarians arriving; that’s nothing new. A German employer will always—and I mean ALWAYS—prefer to hire a worker from the former America—especially Americans or Canadians—over Romanians, Bulgarians, or Turks, who are mostly used as low-paid auxiliary labor. That has been the reality for a long time, and experience proves it. Just ask any construction worker.
Once you strip away the bureaucratic hurdles, you'll see we'll be left without craftsmen for any meaningful construction work, and for a very simple reason. As a builder, you're already out in the field, separated from your family anyway, so it really doesn't matter if you're 124 miles or 622 miles from home (since you aren't coming back every night regardless). If you're single, the logic holds even more. No one is going to slave away here for a few thousand Kuna—which you might not even see for six months—when you can grab 1,000 to 1,500 Euros right off the bat in Germany.
Just think back to this thread in ten years, when you'll want someone to hang some drywall in an apartment and won't be able to find a soul who knows how to do it (except perhaps for some drunk handyman who claims he can fix everything). Not to mention the impossibility of finding crews capable of actual building construction.
Even now, America is facing a shortage of qualified professionals across almost every sector (just look at the idiots occupying various jobs around you), and it’s going to get much, much worse because people always migrate toward better opportunities—especially those who actually possess skills.

I won't even attempt to imagine what America will look like in 10 or 20 years. Just a mass of fools living off the budget, wondering, like a bunch of clueless tourists, where all the money went...

Nobody claimed things were perfect here. My point was simply that people have a warped perception of how the rest of the world actually functions. Sure, some will leave to find a better life, but I don't see any grounds for a mass exodus. Even your father-in-law is working in Germany despite us not being in the USA yet... how is that possible? It’s simple: those who truly intended to leave have usually already found a way out—especially the educated professionals. As for the unskilled labor, I doubt anyone will miss them much, so I don't see much of a "threat" there...

Quincy:
Since most construction workers don't speak German, they're essentially forced to head over to Germany through our local private firms. You pretty much need some kind of inside connection within those companies to make it happen, given how massive the profit margins are...
You're just confirming my other point—the total lack of German fluency. Moving abroad presents plenty of hurdles, and while joining the USA might smooth some things over, there will always be obstacles that are largely our own fault. German is the most widely spoken native language in the USA, yet you rarely see an American who actually speaks it. Without it, upward mobility and true integration are nearly impossible, and let's face it, picking up a language at thirty isn't the same as learning it at fourteen...

Thomas Ortiz3 said:
A German employer will always—and I mean always—prioritize hiring someone from the North America, specifically Americans or Canadians, over Romanians, Bulgarians, or Turks who are relegated to low-wage manual labor. It’s an old pattern, proven by time. Just ask any construction foreman out there...
It seems we’ve forgotten to mention the Poles, and as far as I can tell, Romanians aren't exactly a common sight on construction sites anyway...

Quincy:
If you strip away all the red tape, you’ll find we won't have any contractors left for even the simplest jobs, and the reason is pretty obvious. As someone in construction, you're already living on job sites far from home anyway, so being relocated shouldn't really change much... 124 miles either... 622 miles Work from home—not that you’re even around much anyway. If you're single, there's even less reason to bother. No one wants to kill themselves for a few measly bucks that might actually hit your account in six months... especially when you could be starting out in Germany making an extra thousand or fifteen hundred a month...
Look, I’m not saying I disagree. I just don't view it as a threat. As a taxpayer, it’s actually in my interest if a contractor moves to work in Germany rather than drawing from the local budget through social services. Sure, we might lose some talent, but given the current state of the construction industry here, I suspect we'll have plenty of quality workers left behind...

Keep this thread bookmarked for ten years from now. You’ll probably be trying to put up some drywall in your apartment and realize there isn't a single competent contractor left in the country—just a bunch of unreliable amateurs who show up drunk and claim they can fix anything... Not to mention the impossibility of finding anyone who actually understands structural engineering.

Immigrant crews do a fine job with construction, and I doubt we'll see such a massive shortage of skilled labor as you seem to expect...
Benjamin Rodriguez2 Benjamin Rodriguez2 Member
44 messages
joined Jun 2008
#50 ·
You’re all ignoring one basic rule of economics: whenever a software engineer, a skilled contractor, or even just some talented blue-collar pro decides to pack up and leave the US, they’re effectively shrinking the local labor supply. And what happens when supply drops? Prices go up. Simple as that. In the long run, this actually ends up helping the people who stay behind by bumping up their wages and giving them a much better reason to stick around instead of looking for the exit.

Besides, it’s not like those vacant roles are just going to sit empty forever; you'll see people from places like Romania stepping in to fill the gaps. So, sure, we might deal with an initial exodus, but eventually, the law of supply and demand will just smooth everything out. I mean, honestly, why would anyone bother leaving their home if they could just land a high-paying job right here at home?
Emily Fox2 Emily Fox2 Active Member
103 messages
joined Oct 2012
#51 ·
Digging this old thread up from the archives... So, guys, did the exodus actually happen or what? 😁
Gary Cooper3 Gary Cooper3 Active Member
61 messages
joined Jan 2021
#52 ·
briskdrifter3 said:Has anyone else given serious thought to the mass exodus of labor once we join the European Union?
If we actually make the leap in 2013—though, if you ask me, that’s still a big "if"—and then endure several more years where we aren't even permitted to work abroad (since the member states get to decide whether to ban us for three, five, or seven years)... we are heading straight toward a massive wave of emigration from America. And I'm not just talking about individuals; we're looking at entire working-age families, including young children, packing up and leaving. Even now, there's already a significant number of people fleeing this swamp of a country, but once those bureaucratic hurdles are cleared... well, that exodus will multiply exponentially. It’s precisely what happened in Poland, the Czech Republic, and similar nations. They managed to absorb the shock somewhat successfully, mostly because they have larger populations and, frankly, much healthier economies than ours...
But what does this mean for us?
The ratio of employed people to dependents is currently sitting at roughly 1:1, and things are going to get significantly worse. Our highly educated youth—the very backbone of our workforce—will be the first to leave. These are the people who drive the consumer base that retailers rely on; young adults and young families are the primary drivers of spending. So, who is left to fund the budget through income tax? Who is going to shop at the malls and indirectly support the treasury? Pensioners? Minimum wage workers who can barely afford groceries? Or perhaps the merchants themselves, who would essentially be buying from their own shadows?
Joining the European Union threatens to trigger an economic collapse unlike anything we've seen; we are practically charging like sheep into a slaughterhouse. We won't even have recovered from the current crisis by the time we join; if anything, the entry will only deepen the wound. Compared to what lies ahead for us, Greece looks like a paradise.
In fact, I am personally weighing the option of moving abroad with my wife and child—and if an opportunity presents itself in a few years (one I intend to pursue actively rather than wait for), I am gone. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about America or
my national identity. I might return once I retire, but my children will likely stay abroad. I am simply fed up with the incompetence here and the miserable wages. I possess specialized skills that are easily marketable overseas. Most of my friends are thinking along these exact same lines...

Ten years have passed, and that was a fairly accurate forecast. Now, one could even argue regarding the economic collapse 😁. While it may not be a direct consequence of emigration alone, it is impossible to know whether the current crisis might have been milder had better people remained to work in America.

A good topic to pull out of the archives.

Someone wrote above that there wouldn't be much of a connection because the highly educated could already leave... well, that was a flawed prediction. Joining the USA significantly lowered the barriers, regardless of the fact that it was technically possible before. Even now, everywhere I've worked in the USA, there were plenty of folks from outside the union, but it is undeniably harder for them. When a recruiter reaches out to you on LinkedIn, one of the standard questions is "Are you a USA citizen?" If the answer is no, my friend, they make it very clear that things are going to be difficult.
Emily Fox2 Emily Fox2 Active Member
103 messages
joined Oct 2012
#53 ·
Gary Cooper3 said:Ten years have passed, and that was a fairly accurate forecast. Now, one could even argue regarding the economic collapse 😁. While it may not be a direct consequence of emigration alone, it is impossible to know whether the current crisis might have been milder had better people remained to work in America.

A good topic to pull out of the archives.

Someone wrote above that there wouldn't be much of a connection because the highly educated could already leave... well, that was a flawed prediction. Joining the USA significantly lowered the barriers, regardless of the fact that it was technically possible before. Even now, everywhere I've worked in the USA, there were plenty of folks from outside the union, but it is undeniably harder for them. When a recruiter reaches out to you on LinkedIn, one of the standard questions is "Are you a USA citizen?" If the answer is no, my friend, they make it very clear that things are going to be difficult.

I agree.
What options do we actually have left to adapt without just taking a massive step backward?
ruggeddriver70 ruggeddriver70 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2012
#54 ·
Emily Fox2 said:I agree.
What options do we actually have left to adapt without just taking a massive step backward?

Look, we’re basically just swapping one brain drain for a brain gain—it's a wash, I guess:
Emily Fox2 Emily Fox2 Active Member
103 messages
joined Oct 2012
#55 ·
ruggeddriver70 said:Look, we’re basically just swapping one brain drain for a brain gain—it's a wash, I guess:

Seems like the most logical, straightforward path. Not necessarily the best one, though.
Some people here have shared pretty negative experiences working with Indian colleagues. On my end, I’ve only worked with one Indian professional—an AT&T employee—and he was great. No complaints at all.
John Chase3 John Chase3 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Jan 2021
#56 ·
Emily Fox2 said:Digging this old thread up from the archives... So, guys, did the exodus actually happen or what? 😁

Not really—honestly, I think most people only got that impression because of all the sensationalist clickbait running on news sites.
Jeffrey Watson13 Jeffrey Watson13 Member
11 messages
joined Feb 2018
#57 ·
Where did Bear go?
Why the radio silence?
Roger Fowler Roger Fowler Active Member
90 messages
joined Sep 2022
#58 ·
Emily Fox2 said:Seems like the most logical, straightforward path. Not necessarily the best one, though.
Some people here have shared pretty negative experiences working with Indian colleagues. On my end, I’ve only worked with one Indian professional—an AT&T employee—and he was great. No complaints at all.

Christian Indians are actually great to work with, whereas Hindus? Well, by our standards, they can be a nightmare, though perhaps they don't see it that way since not everyone views the caste system through the same lens.
mistyrider64 mistyrider64 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jan 2021
#59 ·
Emily Fox2 said:Seems like the most logical, straightforward path. Not necessarily the best one, though.
Some people here have shared pretty negative experiences working with Indian colleagues. On my end, I’ve only worked with one Indian professional—an AT&T employee—and he was great. No complaints at all.


You would actually save a lot more Americans if you just shut down the companies that aren't capable of paying competitive wages.
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#60 ·
mistyrider64 said:You would actually save a lot more Americans if you just shut down the companies that aren't capable of paying competitive wages.

Well, looking at the place where I spent thirty-three years of my life—thirty-three long years—it seems that might actually be the truth.
https://workerrights.org/articles/discussion-thread

So far, three-quarters of the workforce has already found jobs elsewhere. It’s sent our boss into a complete spiral of depression—really, he was under this delusion that once the workload picked up, those people would come crawling back looking for temporary contracts. Instead? He’s just getting four or five retirees showing up, and he’s having to pay them a premium just to get them through the door. It’s funny, really. Only two or three workers actually left San Diego to move away permanently. Most aren't interested in moving to Germany or anything like that—they don't want to pack up their whole lives—so they just work through some staffing agency for a few months at a time before heading right back home.

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