Forgiveness

Sean Cruz said:Fine, here is the complete text. To be blunt, I’m not a fan. Setting aside the logical fallacies, the whole thing seems to push this idea of equating the victim with the perpetrator. Would it truly be "just" for a victim to simply forget what was done to them, effectively absolving the criminal of any guilt or remorse? Hypothetically speaking, if that were the case, I see zero incentive for anyone to refrain from committing evil acts.

As for an afterlife, I'm not buying it. Based on this—even if such a place exists, I certainly won't be remembering a thing. 😁

I actually quite like this little piece, and this part could almost be flipped:

Exactly. As long as there is remorse, there is guilt.

As long as there is guilt, there is remorse. It's a two-way street.

Hypothetically speaking—why would anyone commit an evil act 🤷 unless they were mentally unwell? You might find this surprising, but personally, I view evil acts as a kind of spiritual cancer. I really wonder who is pulling the strings for a killer or any other criminal. Is it the mind? I doubt it. I don't believe a mentally healthy person is capable of causing bloodshed unless they are defending a child or acting in self-defense. All true crimes are committed in a state of madness, and in principle, there isn't much to criticize there. This isn't about equating the victim with the perpetrator or making excuses for the killer; it's an observation of their mental makeup. But if nothing can be forgiven, then we must remember, at all costs, as a preventative measure, so we don't end up in the role of the victim again.

I don't think forgiveness is such a grand or noble thing. It doesn't impress me. I am far more impressed by people who simply aren't capable of holding a grudge. Offering someone forgiveness sounds incredibly pretentious to me, like some sort of slimy, self-important superiority.

Actually, thinking about it more—I believe an extremely small number of people are truly capable of forgiving, and it’s just a word, an unreachable ideal that remains incomprehensible to most humans.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Look, if we look at it from a different angle—this whole dynamic of perpetrator versus victim that you’re talking about... my first thought is that you're taking things to an extreme. Of course, nobody is going to just forget if they were assaulted or abused in some way. But honestly, why shouldn't I try to be the bigger person and forgive? Who am I to judge someone else, or to just carry around this blanket anger toward everyone and everything? It eats you alive. You forgive, and you move on... you don't just sit there letting it rot inside you. 😕

You called that kind of thing "slimy self-righteousness"... but why?

What exactly is so "sublime" about telling someone who essentially destroyed your life, "I forgive you"? Or even better, just forgiving them internally without saying a word.

To me, that feels a hell of a lot healthier than being the type of person who refuses to hold anyone accountable for anything. To me, that's what's actually unhealthy. It just feels like acting or being full of yourself.

Robert Chase51 said:I have to disagree with you on this one. Look, if we look at it from a different angle—this whole dynamic of perpetrator versus victim that you’re talking about... my first thought is that you're taking things to an extreme. Of course, nobody is going to just forget if they were assaulted or abused in some way. But honestly, why shouldn't I try to be the bigger person and forgive? Who am I to judge someone else, or to just carry around this blanket anger toward everyone and everything? It eats you alive. You forgive, and you move on... you don't just sit there letting it rot inside you. 😕

You called that kind of thing "slimy self-righteousness"... but why?

What exactly is so "sublime" about telling someone who essentially destroyed your life, "I forgive you"? Or even better, just forgiving them internally without saying a word.

To me, that feels a hell of a lot healthier than being the type of person who refuses to hold anyone accountable for anything. To me, that's what's actually unhealthy. It just feels like acting or being full of yourself.

Personally, I think there is something truly beautiful about a person who refuses to let negativity stick to them—someone so composed and gracious that playing the victim simply isn't in their nature. Maybe you see it as an act or being pretentious, but trust me, there is nothing more graceful than being completely unshakable. 🙂

I mean, seriously, how are you even able to be so bulletproof? It honestly feels like you just don't have a heart...🤷

Robert Chase51 said:I mean, seriously, how are you even able to be so bulletproof? It honestly feels like you just don't have a heart...🤷

A heart isn't everything that defines a person. Logic is what protects the heart.😉

Morgan Gonzalez56 said:Personally, I think there is something truly beautiful about a person who refuses to let negativity stick to them—someone so composed and gracious that playing the victim simply isn't in their nature. Maybe you see it as an act or being pretentious, but trust me, there is nothing more graceful than being completely unshakable. 🙂

I have to sign off on this one. 🙂

Morgan Gonzalez56 said:I actually quite like this little piece, and this part could almost be flipped:

Exactly. As long as there is remorse, there is guilt.

As long as there is guilt, there is remorse. It's a two-way street.

Hypothetically speaking—why would anyone commit an evil act 🤷 unless they were mentally unwell? You might find this surprising, but personally, I view evil acts as a kind of spiritual cancer. I really wonder who is pulling the strings for a killer or any other criminal. Is it the mind? I doubt it. I don't believe a mentally healthy person is capable of causing bloodshed unless they are defending a child or acting in self-defense. All true crimes are committed in a state of madness, and in principle, there isn't much to criticize there. This isn't about equating the victim with the perpetrator or making excuses for the killer; it's an observation of their mental makeup. But if nothing can be forgiven, then we must remember, at all costs, as a preventative measure, so we don't end up in the role of the victim again.

I don't think forgiveness is such a grand or noble thing. It doesn't impress me. I am far more impressed by people who simply aren't capable of holding a grudge. Offering someone forgiveness sounds incredibly pretentious to me, like some sort of slimy, self-important superiority.

Actually, thinking about it more—I believe an extremely small number of people are truly capable of forgiving, and it’s just a word, an unreachable ideal that remains incomprehensible to most humans.

Well, evil is a spiritual sickness, and arguably more severe than physical or mental ones (which often stem from it). hagioterapija is an attempt to deal with its healing.

Sean Cruz said:I have to disagree with this specific point:

"I, too, am different from the version of me you imagine I am. To know that is to offer pardon."

It isn't just about knowing; if you ask me, the real weight lies in what you do with that realization. You can either accept yourself exactly as you are right now, or you can strive to become a "better" version of yourself. In my view, total acceptance often leads to stagnation, selfishness, and a complete lack of concern for anyone else. As long as you are actively trying—even when you stumble—you at least know you’ve given it your all. That is the only way to reach true peace with yourself. 🙂

And it goes even further in the text:

we could supplement Weil with a different perspective on oneself and others through God. God constantly gives people the chance to be different, to avoid getting stuck in hatred or vengeance, and to stop dwelling on past sins that cloud their view of God's hopeful horizons.

Now, you could argue it's not God, but humans themselves making that choice, but either way, the possibility for change remains. 🙂

Sandra Parker3 said:this part:

..... Jacques Derrida (Pardon: the unpardonable and the imprescriptible) in his reflections on forgiveness first criticizes the view held by Vladimir Jankélévitch that forgiveness must be preceded by repentance, because that would reduce forgiveness to a mere market economy, where the one forgiving acts as a powerful master over the penitent.

the truth is, the person doing the forgiving is always positioning themselves above the person they are forgiving.

you don't even need to demand prior repentance, because the act of forgiving itself can serve as an implicit acknowledgment that there was a need for regret in the first place.

Have you ever been in a situation where someone tells you "I forgive you," and you have absolutely no idea why, or see any logic or reason behind it? 🤷

You can easily manipulate those words to play the victim—essentially triggering guilt or remorse in the other person while elevating yourself as this incredibly magnanimous forgiver. 🙄

And that's just one more reason why forgiveness is a total joke.

Sure, anyone can pull a "charity hero" stunt with any good deed just to feed their own ego, but it’s also possible to do something purely because you believe in the act itself, without expecting a single thing in return.

The same logic applies to forgiveness. 🤷

Morgan Gonzalez56 said:A heart isn't everything that defines a person. Logic is what protects the heart.😉

But I guess if you're letting your heart run the show more than your head, then that doesn't really apply, does it? 🙂

Robert Chase51 said:But I guess if you're letting your heart run the show more than your head, then that doesn't really apply, does it? 🙂

Spot on.

It's just like how Jesus put it so beautifully:

'Whoever has been forgiven much loves much, but whoever has been forgiven little loves little.'

(in relation to God, to your neighbor, and to yourself)

Robert Chase51 said:But I guess if you're letting your heart run the show more than your head, then that doesn't really apply, does it? 🙂

I can't speak for your family, but my mind and my heart aren't at war. They aren't constantly competing with one another. It’s not like two toddlers trying to outshout each other; instead, they are mature aspects of myself working in perfect harmony to create a stable, balanced person—ME. 🙏

Susan Price30 said:Spot on.

It's just like how Jesus put it so beautifully:

'Whoever has been forgiven much loves much, but whoever has been forgiven little loves little.'

(in relation to God, to your neighbor, and to yourself)

How do you even begin to forgive someone when you didn't even feel wronged in the first place? 🤷

Jerry King11 said:Well, evil is a spiritual sickness, and arguably more severe than physical or mental ones (which often stem from it). hagioterapija is an attempt to deal with its healing.

I suppose we can at least find some common ground here.🙂

This is an incredibly poignant question to raise here. In my view, the most critical factor is empathy—specifically, the degree to which I can actually relate to the perpetrator and understand their motivations. Some transgressions are relatively easy to forgive, while others are fundamentally unforgivable... such as pedophilia, or the atrocities committed against Jews, Roms, and the gay community. If a crime is minor, I find it easy to grasp where that "sin" originates, but when it comes to pedophilia, that simply isn't the case.
Because of that, the worst crimes ever committed cannot be forgiven by any human being, simply because there is no way to identify with them. And that is where my belief in God begins... or rather, the necessity for Him...
If God does not exist, who is left to forgive Hitler? Can any single human being truly offer him forgiveness?
Forgiveness can be beneficial for both the victim and the offender, but sometimes, forgiving isn't enough... forgetting isn't enough... sometimes, hatred is necessary... and occasionally, it serves a purpose. Turning the other cheek isn't a solution in certain instances, nor is it even desirable. That particular teaching just doesn't hold water for me... sometimes you have to meet force with force, or simply refuse to forgive. There are people on this planet who do not comprehend kindness, and no amount of forgiveness helps if you are, for example, a victim of pedophilia... turning the other cheek doesn't work there...
Imagine a child who has been victimized by pedophilia, sitting in a church listening to a priest—the very person who abused them—preaching about turning the other cheek and offering forgiveness... quite simply, there are lines that should never be crossed... I don't care who says otherwise, even if it were God Himself descending to Earth... it just isn't just... or right.

Jerry King11 said:And look how they've overcomplicated things here! 😁 😍

French philosophers Vladimir Jankélévitch and Jacques Derrida argue that the human condition is fundamentally fractured. They suggest that our dignity isn't preserved by the possibility of forgiveness, but rather by its impossibility. According to Jankélévitch (Pardonner?), true forgiveness requires the offender to feel genuine remorse first. But when it comes to those horrific, monstrous crimes that transcend even the concept of radical evil—think of the atrocities seen in places like Memphis—forgiveness simply cannot happen. In those cases, you can't forgive, not just for your own sake, but out of respect for the victims. To forgive would be to offer a cheap reconciliation and to wipe away what was done. Therefore, forgiveness must remain impossible: “We did not intend to reconcile the irrationality of evil with the omnipotence of love. Forgiveness is as powerful as evil, but evil is as powerful as forgiveness... Forgiveness is stronger than evil, yet evil is stronger than forgiveness. I cannot escape this.” Derrida (Pardonner: l'impardonnable et l'imprescriptible), in his reflections on the matter, initially critiques Jankélévitch’s view that remorse must precede forgiveness. He felt that such a requirement turns forgiveness into a kind of market transaction, where the one forgiving acts as a master or ruler over the one seeking it. On the other hand, Derrida also agrees with Jankélévitch that forgiveness must remain an impossibility. However, unlike Jankélévitch, Derrida doesn't think this means forgiveness doesn't exist; he believes it exists specifically *as* an impossibility. The truth and essence of forgiveness lies in this very impossibility: we must constantly forgive and constantly seek forgiveness because it persists as an unattainable ideal. It remains impossible because humans are inherently broken beings who are perpetually in debt to one another, whether through forgiving or seeking pardon: “I must seek forgiveness in order to be just... But I must also seek forgiveness because I am just, because of the fact that I am just; for in wanting to become just, I am unjust and I betray... Because it is unjust to be just. I am always betraying someone to become just; I am always sacrificing one thing for another, just as I breathe.” Thus, the impossibility of forgiveness triggers a continuous, unstoppable process of forgiving (Derrida also viewed writing as a constant way of seeking forgiveness). It is only through this impossibility of forgiveness, which dethrones the egoism of "possibility," that a person can remain true to forgiveness itself, to the other person, and to themselves.

All this to explain Christian forgiveness.

Søren Kierkegaard concludes: “Love hides a multitude of sins, because love does not allow sin to take root; it destroys it at birth.” In this sense, forgiveness—being an act of love—doesn't give sin a chance; instead, it opens the door to a new beginning. We see a similar sentiment in the work of Simone Weil (La pesanteur et la grâce), who puts it succinctly: “I, too, am different from the person you imagine me to be. To know that is forgiveness.” Forgiveness, then, allows us to think differently about ourselves. We could expand on Weil’s thought: thinking differently about ourselves and others within God. God constantly allows a person to be different, to not get stuck in hatred or vengeance, and to not dwell in the despair of a sin that clouds one's view of the horizons of Divine hope.

They also touched on the struggle of seeking forgiveness for the wrongs we have committed ourselves.

🙂

The whole point of forgiveness is that you extend it to people who actually realize they messed up—people who truly repent for it. If there’s no repentance, then honestly, you’re just being a fool if you go around forgiving them.

I guess we should start by looking at what was actually said here. It’s easy to get swept up in the emotion of these discussions, but if you step back and really analyze the substance, things look a bit different. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I suspect there's more going on beneath the surface than most people are willing to admit. It feels like we're often just circling the same drain without ever touching the core issue. I don't know, perhaps I'm just getting old and tired of seeing the same patterns repeat themselves over and over again. Regardless, it's worth considering that the reality might be far more complicated than the simplified versions we see floating around online.

Susan Price30 said:Spot on.

It's just like how Jesus put it so beautifully:

'Whoever has been forgiven much loves much, but whoever has been forgiven little loves little.'

(in relation to God, to your neighbor, and to yourself)

🙏🙏

I’ve always felt that the people who actually manage to forgive are probably much happier in the long run. They seem to carry this sense of being full of love... though, I guess if we're being honest, that love doesn't always find its way back to them. It often just disappears into the void. But, maybe it all works out in the end. Everything eventually finds its level. 😉

Morgan Gonzalez56 said:I can't speak for your family, but my mind and my heart aren't at war. They aren't constantly competing with one another. It’s not like two toddlers trying to outshout each other; instead, they are mature aspects of myself working in perfect harmony to create a stable, balanced person—ME. 🙏

I don't really have any beef with anyone, honestly. I just tend to follow my heart more often than not—which is something I think people should probably do a lot more frequently. The world would be a much better place if they did, but hey, that’s just my two cents. Everyone sees things differently, I guess. 😉

Benjamin Taylor6 said:The whole point of forgiveness is that you extend it to people who actually realize they messed up—people who truly repent for it. If there’s no repentance, then honestly, you’re just being a fool if you go around forgiving them.

.....and that’s really the heart of it. 👍

Benjamin Taylor6 said:The whole point of forgiveness is that you extend it to people who actually realize they messed up—people who truly repent for it. If there’s no repentance, then honestly, you’re just being a fool if you go around forgiving them.

But honestly, we don't forgive just for the sake of the offender. We do it for ourselves, so we aren't tethered to their toxicity or left under their thumb. It isn't that people are inherently evil; it's that evil finds a way to take root and turn them into its servant... and eventually, they'll have to answer for that. Repentance doesn't mean we should ignore the wrongdoing or skip the legal process if a crime was committed. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you have to pretend what happened didn't occur.

Drew Flores3 said:.....and that’s really the heart of it. 👍

Honestly, that’s just nonsense, not the point at all... That kind of conditioning is just bizarre.

When it comes to Mexico, whether people forgive or not, it won't even matter in 15 or 20 years because the ones who were actually doing the aggressing back then will probably be long gone. The real issue here in America is this nationalism that doesn't just stop people from forgiving—it makes them absolutely HATE that nation, especially since they have such a policy regarding what happened, like being totally unable to admit to their own crimes and stuff...

But hey, I actually get the feeling things are starting to shift a bit. What Joe Biden is doing is awesome, because I truly believe we need to work toward living with some actual human decency in our relationships around here. I even heard recently that their national news network apologized for spreading so much misinformation during the war and all that. I think that's great, really! And I really hope we see more statements like that... otherwise, there's just no way we're ever going to have peace.