Forgiveness vs. Ego: How do you let go?

hiddenhound3 said:While it is true that people can often behave like cattle, it seems unfair to generalize based on those rare instances of brilliance. As a species, humanity has largely proven itself unworthy of trust. Most individuals are driven strictly by self-interest and the pursuit of profit in whatever form it takes; those who possess genuine benevolence or consideration as part of their fundamental character are exceedingly rare, and even when they do exist, their virtues are frequently overlooked or undervalued.

I am curious to know how others view this matter. When evaluating relationships and friendships, do you weigh them based on whether both parties are receiving an equal benefit, or is that secondary to your goal of minimizing ego and simply forgiving whatever causes offense?

I have never found it necessary to measure, weigh, or trade in the currency of friendship and emotional connections. I find great interest in observing the people who pass through my life, attempting to evaluate them based on their conduct, their speech, their manners, and their body language. While I maintain a certain level of caution, I generally harbor no grudges and never demand that others offer explanations or apologies, even when they certainly deserve to. I am neither vindictive nor overly sentimental; rather, I view every situation that has the potential to hurt me as a personal test or a simple lesson. Those who cause harm to me ultimately inflict more damage upon themselves and their own karma than they ever could upon mine. I do not imbue the act of forgiveness with any romanticized or noble connotations; quite simply, everyone acts according to what they are capable of or what they must do. If a person can live with their own inner rage, who am I to sit in judgment? 🤷

It’s worth taking a moment to really ask ourselves:

I often wonder just how much power or skill I actually possess... what kind of energy I’m putting out there... and to what extent I can actually draw the best qualities out of another person—you know, things like empathy, kindness, being sociable, compassion, a willingness to help, or just being cooperative... blah blah blah.

I honestly wonder how much my own actions—whether I’m speaking up or just being myself—actually end up blocking those qualities from ever coming through.

It’s not even about how much I can't stand those kinds of people—since most folks aren't actually stuck in that black-and-white mindset—it's more about how much I end up blocking out whatever good is left in a single person.
Well, look at that—it's in the second one.
Thirdly...

Everyone just does what they can or what they have to, and if they choose to go their own way... With all my fits of rage. They can live how they want; who am I to judge? 🤷

It isn't just about people losing their tempers; it’s about those specific behaviors that rub us the wrong way, even when they aren't driven by anger or any kind of emotional outburst.

Every single day we run into these little annoyances that just get under our skin, and honestly, we’ve only got two ways to handle them: we can either stay chill or just let it all go to hell.

Sandra Parker3 said:

Personal responsibility—well, it’s a matter of individual nuance, isn't it? It hinges upon the specific circumstances under which a person matures and evolves. One cannot reasonably expect the same level of accountability from someone raised in a traumatic environment—burdened by warped motives and distorted ideals—as one might from someone nurtured in a positive, spiritual atmosphere where values like empathy and tolerance were woven into their very foundation. I am merely presenting two extremes here, of course, but I maintain my belief that we all begin—as living, breathing human beings—with an equal predisposition toward embracing love, compassion, and understanding as virtues worth cultivating. However, our surroundings and our upbringing inevitably corrupt that potential to varying degrees during our development. Therefore, I would argue that our primary personal responsibility lies in the world we build for those who follow us—the environment we leave for future generations and the way we choose to shape them.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
On this particular point, I find myself in agreement with you. "Forgiveness" might indeed be the imprecise term here, though acceptance and understanding are likely the essential first steps on the road toward it. To begin, one must attempt to understand (and accept), and then—depending entirely upon the circumstances of the "offense"—forgiveness either follows or it does not.

Consider, for instance, a scenario where Person A harms Person B. Person B might reach a level of understanding, yet if that "offense" is a recurring pattern, the likelihood of Person A being forgiven remains slim. Conversely, should Person A express genuine remorse, the probability of Person B granting forgiveness increases. In both instances, an offense occurred and understanding was sought, but the ultimate outcome of forgiveness remained contingent upon specific variables—variables that shift with every situation and depend heavily on the nature of the relationship itself—meaning we could likely debate this indefinitely without ever arriving at some universal formula or rule.

Ultimately, a more fitting title for this discussion might have been "Forgiveness vs. Understanding vs. Ego," but I suppose understanding and acceptance are so intrinsically linked to forgiveness that there was little sense in listing them separately.

Jose Ramirez36 said:

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
On this particular point, I find myself in agreement with you. "Forgiveness" might indeed be the imprecise term here, though acceptance and understanding are likely the essential first steps on the road toward it. To begin, one must attempt to understand (and accept), and then—depending entirely upon the circumstances of the "offense"—forgiveness either follows or it does not.

Consider, for instance, a scenario where Person A harms Person B. Person B might reach a level of understanding, yet if that "offense" is a recurring pattern, the likelihood of Person A being forgiven remains slim. Conversely, should Person A express genuine remorse, the probability of Person B granting forgiveness increases. In both instances, an offense occurred and understanding was sought, but the ultimate outcome of forgiveness remained contingent upon specific variables—variables that shift with every situation and depend heavily on the nature of the relationship itself—meaning we could likely debate this indefinitely without ever arriving at some universal formula or rule.

Ultimately, a more fitting title for this discussion might have been "Forgiveness vs. Understanding vs. Ego," but I suppose understanding and acceptance are so intrinsically linked to forgiveness that there was little sense in listing them separately.
Hmm, I think you're mostly right. Accepting someone isn't necessarily the same thing as forgiving them, but sometimes avoiding a fight—letting go of the ego—is just smarter if fighting is going to be counterproductive. It makes me think of a Warrior of the Light, someone who doesn't waste energy on every single skirmish, but instead weighs where it’s worth fighting and where it’s better to just stay quiet. That leaves me wondering: are there times when letting the ego take over is actually productive? I'd love to hear what you guys think.

Take a scenario where Person A hurts Person B. Person B might understand why it happened, but if Person A keeps pulling the same stunt over and over, chances are they won't be forgiven. On the flip side, if Person A actually owns up and says they're sorry, the odds of being forgiven shoot way up. In both cases, the hurt happened and there was understanding involved, but forgiveness itself depends on the specifics of the situation—which change every time depending on the relationship. We probably couldn't find a universal rule for it even if we sat here arguing forever.

Spot on. In that first scenario, Person A is being insensitive and repeating the same mistakes—so forgiveness is tough, though not impossible. In that case, forgiveness is more of a passive way to protect yourself from being swallowed by negative emotions, even if you aren't actively reacting to Person A. It's basically forgiving through distancing, just to maintain some emotional sanity.

In the second (nicer) version, Person A realizes they messed up, forgiveness happens naturally, and it clears the path for mutual respect and understanding—real potential for a solid friendship or relationship.

Is there anything you absolutely cannot forgive, and why? Do we actually gain anything by holding onto a grudge? Have any of you ever been vengeful? Does revenge actually make sense in certain situations?

p.s. As this conversation goes on, it's becoming pretty obvious that it's not just about forgiving, but also about actually saying the words, "I forgive you."

Sandra Parker3 said:

Personal responsibility—well, it’s a matter of individual nuance, isn't it? It hinges upon the specific circumstances under which a person matures and evolves. One cannot reasonably expect the same level of accountability from someone raised in a traumatic environment—burdened by warped motives and distorted ideals—as one might from someone nurtured in a positive, spiritual atmosphere where values like empathy and tolerance were woven into their very foundation. I am merely presenting two extremes here, of course, but I maintain my belief that we all begin—as living, breathing human beings—with an equal predisposition toward embracing love, compassion, and understanding as virtues worth cultivating. However, our surroundings and our upbringing inevitably corrupt that potential to varying degrees during our development. Therefore, I would argue that our primary personal responsibility lies in the world we build for those who follow us—the environment we leave for future generations and the way we choose to shape them.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
Most people find comfort in the delusion that they are merely reacting to their surroundings, a convenient mental shortcut that allows them to shift the weight of personal responsibility onto the world at large.
If one assumes that human beings merely react to their surroundings, then the very concept of agency evaporates; if we are nothing more than mirrors reflecting our environment, we must ask where true action originates, especially when that environment is constructed by the collective presence of other people.
The answer lies in the simple fact that human agency is fundamentally driven by our attempts to reshape the world around us to suit our needs; every such endeavor constitutes an act of will. It is within this continuous process of adaptation and intervention that our true responsibility resides.

Actually, I would argue that we might find more value in shifting our focus; rather than dwelling on the concept of forgiveness, perhaps it is more productive to speak in terms of mindfulness—specifically, maintaining a sense of consideration toward both ourselves and those around us through a genuine acceptance and understanding of flawed actions.
To me, the word "forgiveness" carries a certain weight that feels more like rejection or erasure—as if one is simply canceling out an action or deleting a debt—which is a concept I find personally quite unappealing.
I don't subscribe to the notion of erasing sins; one simply learns to live with them, whether they are our own or those of others. It is within that acceptance, rather than through forced forgetting, that a true sense of peace and composure is eventually found.

Understanding is everything. When true understanding is achieved, there is no sense of being wounded, which effectively eliminates the need for forgiveness. Injury only creates a conflict within oneself: whether one should forgive or not.
To truly grasp the nature of other people, one must first achieve a profound understanding of oneself. This isn't about indulging the ego or crafting convenient justifications; rather, it requires an honest investigation into the specific conditions that have shaped who we are. In uncovering that truth, one realizes that everyone else is similarly conditioned by their own unique circumstances. Ultimately, our varying reactions to the world are merely reflections of our individual, subjective perceptions of reality.

Jose Ramirez36 said:

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
On this particular point, I find myself in agreement with you. "Forgiveness" might indeed be the imprecise term here, though acceptance and understanding are likely the essential first steps on the road toward it. To begin, one must attempt to understand (and accept), and then—depending entirely upon the circumstances of the "offense"—forgiveness either follows or it does not.

Consider, for instance, a scenario where Person A harms Person B. Person B might reach a level of understanding, yet if that "offense" is a recurring pattern, the likelihood of Person A being forgiven remains slim. Conversely, should Person A express genuine remorse, the probability of Person B granting forgiveness increases. In both instances, an offense occurred and understanding was sought, but the ultimate outcome of forgiveness remained contingent upon specific variables—variables that shift with every situation and depend heavily on the nature of the relationship itself—meaning we could likely debate this indefinitely without ever arriving at some universal formula or rule.

Ultimately, a more fitting title for this discussion might have been "Forgiveness vs. Understanding vs. Ego," but I suppose understanding and acceptance are so intrinsically linked to forgiveness that there was little sense in listing them separately.
This is precisely what I was implying in my previous post. The concept of forgiveness itself holds very little interest for me, as I find it somewhat hollow. It is far more vital to identify the true root of the issue, for that is the only way to ensure the problem ceases to be a problem. Once you learn to see people for who they truly are and accept them, you stop demanding justifications from them because their circumstances become clear. You simply stop placing yourself on some high moral pedestal, attempting to adjudicate matters as grand as divine forgiveness. 🙂

Sandra Parker3 said:It’s worth taking a moment to really ask ourselves:

I often wonder just how much power or skill I actually possess... what kind of energy I’m putting out there... and to what extent I can actually draw the best qualities out of another person—you know, things like empathy, kindness, being sociable, compassion, a willingness to help, or just being cooperative... blah blah blah.

I honestly wonder how much my own actions—whether I’m speaking up or just being myself—actually end up blocking those qualities from ever coming through.

It’s not even about how much I can't stand those kinds of people—since most folks aren't actually stuck in that black-and-white mindset—it's more about how much I end up blocking out whatever good is left in a single person.
Well, look at that—it's in the second one.
Thirdly...

Everyone just does what they can or what they have to, and if they choose to go their own way... With all my fits of rage. They can live how they want; who am I to judge? 🤷

It isn't just about people losing their tempers; it’s about those specific behaviors that rub us the wrong way, even when they aren't driven by anger or any kind of emotional outburst.

Every single day we run into these little annoyances that just get under our skin, and honestly, we’ve only got two ways to handle them: we can either stay chill or just let it all go to hell.

I personally do not reject anything, nor do I attempt to attract anything specific; I simply choose my own company, which is mostly my own. Most people tend to get on my nerves, but when they are in my presence, everyone has every right to behave however they please. I do not establish rules, I set no conditions, and I accept everything absolutely. Even the more unrefined individuals—in fact, the more free and uninhibited a person is, the more I prefer them. To me, they are just as significant as those labeled "evil" or "good," and both deserve equal attention. In truth, those who act poorly often require even more attention because they are fundamentally unhappy, and dealing with them necessitates true patience and warmth. The anatomy of malice is always far more intriguing to me than the anatomy of goodness.

it is not about how many people I reject (as those with a black-and-white worldview are in the minority), but rather... to what extent I block the positive potential within a single individual,
then in another,
and then a third...

I fail to grasp the point you are trying to make. 😕

we aren't just talking about outbursts of anger, but about various behaviors that bother us which aren't necessarily reflections of rage or similar states.

On any given day, we encounter numerous minor situations that irritate us, and we have two ways to respond: calmly or destructively.

Why should one feel compelled to react at all? 🤷 What can a reaction truly accomplish? Can it improve things? Can it change a person who constantly repeats the very behaviors you find bothersome? Do you really believe it is virtuous to expect others to act solely in ways that suit your preferences? Is that not, in itself, somewhat narcissistic?

Every reaction is merely a reflection of one's own fractures and internal conflicts; a self-aware individual accepts and respects, because they KNOW.

hiddenhound3 said:This is precisely what I was implying in my previous post. The concept of forgiveness itself holds very little interest for me, as I find it somewhat hollow. It is far more vital to identify the true root of the issue, for that is the only way to ensure the problem ceases to be a problem. Once you learn to see people for who they truly are and accept them, you stop demanding justifications from them because their circumstances become clear. You simply stop placing yourself on some high moral pedestal, attempting to adjudicate matters as grand as divine forgiveness. 🙂

So, what you call acceptance, I call forgiveness.

Furthermore, you suggest that finding the root cause is essential for your ability to accept others—yet, at the same time, you claim you don't seek justifications from them (though, if I may be so bold, it seems you are seeking them after all). As for this idea of a "moral vertical"—I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. And regarding attributing divine qualities to "forgiveness"... well, I find that somewhat misplaced here, as that isn't really the point of our exchange. This isn't a theological debate; it's a discussion about one's own spirituality.

hiddenhound3 said:I personally do not reject anything, nor do I attempt to attract anything specific; I simply choose my own company, which is mostly my own. Most people tend to get on my nerves, but when they are in my presence, everyone has every right to behave however they please. I do not establish rules, I set no conditions, and I accept everything absolutely. Even the more unrefined individuals—in fact, the more free and uninhibited a person is, the more I prefer them. To me, they are just as significant as those labeled "evil" or "good," and both deserve equal attention. In truth, those who act poorly often require even more attention because they are fundamentally unhappy, and dealing with them necessitates true patience and warmth. The anatomy of malice is always far more intriguing to me than the anatomy of goodness.

it is not about how many people I reject (as those with a black-and-white worldview are in the minority), but rather... to what extent I block the positive potential within a single individual,
then in another,
and then a third...

I fail to grasp the point you are trying to make. 😕

we aren't just talking about outbursts of anger, but about various behaviors that bother us which aren't necessarily reflections of rage or similar states.

On any given day, we encounter numerous minor situations that irritate us, and we have two ways to respond: calmly or destructively.

Why should one feel compelled to react at all? 🤷 What can a reaction truly accomplish? Can it improve things? Can it change a person who constantly repeats the very behaviors you find bothersome? Do you really believe it is virtuous to expect others to act solely in ways that suit your preferences? Is that not, in itself, somewhat narcissistic?

Every reaction is merely a reflection of one's own fractures and internal conflicts; a self-aware individual accepts and respects, because they KNOW.

That is your way of processing the world, and certainly, who am I to tell you that your method is incorrect? However, I will mention that I once operated under that same philosophy—preferring my own solitude and finding most social interactions equally irritating. But then, I began to question myself and my own perception of the things that typically vex me—realizing much of it was tied to the ego. Since then, I have moved toward understanding and accepting both myself and my surroundings; I have gradually developed a deeper insight into the complexity of human relationships and how closely they are tethered to the ego and the individual struggles of those we encounter.

hiddenhound3 said:I personally do not reject anything, nor do I attempt to attract anything specific; I simply choose my own company, which is mostly my own. Most people tend to get on my nerves, but when they are in my presence, everyone has every right to behave however they please. I do not establish rules, I set no conditions, and I accept everything absolutely. Even the more unrefined individuals—in fact, the more free and uninhibited a person is, the more I prefer them. To me, they are just as significant as those labeled "evil" or "good," and both deserve equal attention. In truth, those who act poorly often require even more attention because they are fundamentally unhappy, and dealing with them necessitates true patience and warmth. The anatomy of malice is always far more intriguing to me than the anatomy of goodness.

it is not about how many people I reject (as those with a black-and-white worldview are in the minority), but rather... to what extent I block the positive potential within a single individual,
then in another,
and then a third...

I fail to grasp the point you are trying to make. 😕

we aren't just talking about outbursts of anger, but about various behaviors that bother us which aren't necessarily reflections of rage or similar states.

On any given day, we encounter numerous minor situations that irritate us, and we have two ways to respond: calmly or destructively.

Why should one feel compelled to react at all? 🤷 What can a reaction truly accomplish? Can it improve things? Can it change a person who constantly repeats the very behaviors you find bothersome? Do you really believe it is virtuous to expect others to act solely in ways that suit your preferences? Is that not, in itself, somewhat narcissistic?

Every reaction is merely a reflection of one's own fractures and internal conflicts; a self-aware individual accepts and respects, because they KNOW.

Of course you’re out there repelling people and attracting them all at the same time.

Whether you realize it or not, every single thing you do—every action, every hesitation, every tiny movement or breath—radiates out there and triggers a reaction.
That’s exactly what I meant.

Even if you spend most of your time alone, you're never truly by yourself when you're out on the subway, walking down the street, or just grabbing something at the grocery store.

What kind of reaction do you actually get when you accidentally brush past someone on the sidewalk, step on a toe, ask for the time, or hand over some wrong change? You know what I mean—do people give you a decent, "human" response with a smile, or is it just... pure hostility? 🤷

So, I guess it's worth asking: how much of what you actually do—whether it’s what you say or just how you carry yourself—ends up being perceived as "good" or "bad" by others, regardless of what you actually intended? It’s kind of a heavy thought, isn't it? Have you ever really sat down and wondered about the impact you're having on the rest of humanity like that?
Just try to forget that I was actually the one asking you. 😁)

I choose my own circle, which usually just means me being by myself. Most people tend to get on my nerves, but when I actually do hang out with others, everyone’s free to act however they want. I'm not about setting rules or laying down conditions. I'm all in on this.....

I can't believe you're just swallowing everything they feed you.
You can endure just about anything, but acceptance feels less like peace and more like a shrug—like you’re just saying, "Whatever, keep going." Honestly, believing in that whole "accept everything" mantra is a massive stretch because, let's be real, don't you just want to turn around and walk away?

You don't need to go around policing everyone else's behavior; you just need to learn how to actually hold your own boundaries.

Even if... I can't believe I'm even wasting my breath on this level of stupidity. Total idiots.Honestly, the more unfiltered and direct a person is, the more I actually like them. I don't care if they're labeled "good" or "bad"—they both get the same amount of my attention, really. The wicked actually deserve even more attention, mostly because they're just miserable souls who desperately need some patience and warmth. I’ve always found that the anatomy of malice is way more interesting than the anatomy of goodness.

And that absolute piece of work is...????

That bolded part is just a mistake.
Dangerous.

Just one little thing, just one tiny detail... Is there really no room among good people for those who are struggling—those just craving a little attention, some genuine care, a bit of patience, or even just a shred of warmth?

I don't really get what you're trying to say. 😕

That was just a direct continuation of the text; I only added those line breaks to really drive home the distinction between what pushes people away and what draws them in. It’s just a trait. It’s just about people.

So, does what I do actually ripple out and show up in someone else as either good or bad?
Am I mostly a force for good or a force for evil?
I was actually part of that section where you were mostly venting about all those bad experiences, so I figured it’s worth reflecting on—not just for you, but for everyone—how much of that mess is actually our own fault.

why should we even bother reacting? 🤷

because by reacting—whether we actually do something or just sit there—we've already made our move

what is your reaction actually going to accomplish? change things for the better? change someone who just keeps doing the exact same things that drive you crazy?

our response can actually make a difference
you've never once managed to settle a spirit with nothing more than a casual, easygoing smile... have you?
i certainly have
and it could have gone differently too
well, sure... if I hadn't just sulked and instead spoke up, I might have actually shifted the whole situation

...do you really think it's right to expect people to only do what suits you? don't you find that a bit narcissistic?...

maybe selfish or just plain thoughtless??? but usually, it's totally ineffective
so that's not what I'm looking for

but just so we're clear... not expecting someone to dance to my tune doesn't mean I'm not going to react to a terrible dance😁

Every reaction is just a reflection of one's own brokenness and internal conflicts; a self-aware individual accepts and respects this because they KNOW.

I don't get it, why does a reaction necessarily have to be negative in your eyes? 🤷

dustyraven26 said:

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
Most people find comfort in the delusion that they are merely reacting to their surroundings, a convenient mental shortcut that allows them to shift the weight of personal responsibility onto the world at large.
If one assumes that human beings merely react to their surroundings, then the very concept of agency evaporates; if we are nothing more than mirrors reflecting our environment, we must ask where true action originates, especially when that environment is constructed by the collective presence of other people.
The answer lies in the simple fact that human agency is fundamentally driven by our attempts to reshape the world around us to suit our needs; every such endeavor constitutes an act of will. It is within this continuous process of adaptation and intervention that our true responsibility resides.

Actually, I would argue that we might find more value in shifting our focus; rather than dwelling on the concept of forgiveness, perhaps it is more productive to speak in terms of mindfulness—specifically, maintaining a sense of consideration toward both ourselves and those around us through a genuine acceptance and understanding of flawed actions.
To me, the word "forgiveness" carries a certain weight that feels more like rejection or erasure—as if one is simply canceling out an action or deleting a debt—which is a concept I find personally quite unappealing.
I don't subscribe to the notion of erasing sins; one simply learns to live with them, whether they are our own or those of others. It is within that acceptance, rather than through forced forgetting, that a true sense of peace and composure is eventually found.

Understanding is everything. When true understanding is achieved, there is no sense of being wounded, which effectively eliminates the need for forgiveness. Injury only creates a conflict within oneself: whether one should forgive or not.
To truly grasp the nature of other people, one must first achieve a profound understanding of oneself. This isn't about indulging the ego or crafting convenient justifications; rather, it requires an honest investigation into the specific conditions that have shaped who we are. In uncovering that truth, one realizes that everyone else is similarly conditioned by their own unique circumstances. Ultimately, our varying reactions to the world are merely reflections of our individual, subjective perceptions of reality.
Well, that's not quite right.

I can see how and why—what kind of motives or lack thereof led you to do something—and I accept that, just as much as I accept the fact that it hurt me.

But you're going to have to understand and accept that last part too.😁
It shouldn't be one without the other... otherwise, the whole thing is pretty much pointless.

To me, forgiveness feels totally hollow if that's the case.

Sandra Parker3 said:Well, that's not quite right.

I can see how and why—what kind of motives or lack thereof led you to do something—and I accept that, just as much as I accept the fact that it hurt me.

But you're going to have to understand and accept that last part too.😁
It shouldn't be one without the other... otherwise, the whole thing is pretty much pointless.

To me, forgiveness feels totally hollow if that's the case.

I am not quite sure if we are even discussing the same thing here, or if you feel similarly wounded because a bird decided to drop its mess on your head or a baby accidentally soiled your lap.🤷

Jose Ramirez36 said:So, what you call acceptance, I call forgiveness.

Furthermore, you suggest that finding the root cause is essential for your ability to accept others—yet, at the same time, you claim you don't seek justifications from them (though, if I may be so bold, it seems you are seeking them after all). As for this idea of a "moral vertical"—I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. And regarding attributing divine qualities to "forgiveness"... well, I find that somewhat misplaced here, as that isn't really the point of our exchange. This isn't a theological debate; it's a discussion about one's own spirituality.

That is your way of processing the world, and certainly, who am I to tell you that your method is incorrect? However, I will mention that I once operated under that same philosophy—preferring my own solitude and finding most social interactions equally irritating. But then, I began to question myself and my own perception of the things that typically vex me—realizing much of it was tied to the ego. Since then, I have moved toward understanding and accepting both myself and my surroundings; I have gradually developed a deeper insight into the complexity of human relationships and how closely they are tethered to the ego and the individual struggles of those we encounter.

When I assert that forgiveness is divine work, I am not making a religious argument; rather, I mean that true forgiveness can only be granted by those who have never erred—those who remain pure and innocent. I do not believe in human forgiveness because, as I have previously maintained, people act primarily out of self-interest. In most instances, people forgive, or merely attempt to project the image of forgiving, simply to elevate their own standing and establish themselves as a moral authority.

Furthermore, you suggest that finding the root cause of a problem is essential for you to accept it—yet, at the same time, you claim you aren't looking for justifications from others (even though you clearly are).

No, that is incorrect; as I have already stated, I hold no grudges against anyone, which means there is nothing to forgive. Seeking to understand a person is also driven by self-interest; my personal gain in this matter is my own peace and tranquility. If I comprehend human impulses and motives, it implies a sense of closeness, yet understanding should never be a prerequisite for forgiveness. If one chooses to forgive, they should do so unconditionally, rather than doing it because ___________ 😉 (imagine whatever you wish on that line)

For in my view, whenever forgiveness is invoked, an expectation gallops alongside it with equal intensity—for instance: "I forgive you now, but I hope you never do it again!" 🤣 Such things do not exist for me. Once you truly accept and understand a person (which primarily necessitates accepting and understanding oneself), you cease to have expectations. You realize that patterns will repeat because you have gained insight into that individual's character and their predictable behavior. If someone does not suit you, you simply keep your distance; if you harbor resentment only to forgive it later, you are merely revealing your own internal contradictions and personal struggles. It is only when you transcend, analyze, and accept your own issues that we can speak of genuine acceptance.

This discussion is not about religion, but about one's own spirituality.

One's "personal" spirituality does not exclude the recurring themes of God, religiosity, prayer, morality, benevolence, or grace...

Sandra Parker3 said:Of course you’re out there repelling people and attracting them all at the same time.

Whether you realize it or not, every single thing you do—every action, every hesitation, every tiny movement or breath—radiates out there and triggers a reaction.
That’s exactly what I meant.

Even if you spend most of your time alone, you're never truly by yourself when you're out on the subway, walking down the street, or just grabbing something at the grocery store.

What kind of reaction do you actually get when you accidentally brush past someone on the sidewalk, step on a toe, ask for the time, or hand over some wrong change? You know what I mean—do people give you a decent, "human" response with a smile, or is it just... pure hostility? 🤷

So, I guess it's worth asking: how much of what you actually do—whether it’s what you say or just how you carry yourself—ends up being perceived as "good" or "bad" by others, regardless of what you actually intended? It’s kind of a heavy thought, isn't it? Have you ever really sat down and wondered about the impact you're having on the rest of humanity like that?
Just try to forget that I was actually the one asking you. 😁)

I choose my own circle, which usually just means me being by myself. Most people tend to get on my nerves, but when I actually do hang out with others, everyone’s free to act however they want. I'm not about setting rules or laying down conditions. I'm all in on this.....

I can't believe you're just swallowing everything they feed you.
You can endure just about anything, but acceptance feels less like peace and more like a shrug—like you’re just saying, "Whatever, keep going." Honestly, believing in that whole "accept everything" mantra is a massive stretch because, let's be real, don't you just want to turn around and walk away?

You don't need to go around policing everyone else's behavior; you just need to learn how to actually hold your own boundaries.

Even if... I can't believe I'm even wasting my breath on this level of stupidity. Total idiots.Honestly, the more unfiltered and direct a person is, the more I actually like them. I don't care if they're labeled "good" or "bad"—they both get the same amount of my attention, really. The wicked actually deserve even more attention, mostly because they're just miserable souls who desperately need some patience and warmth. I’ve always found that the anatomy of malice is way more interesting than the anatomy of goodness.

And that absolute piece of work is...????

That bolded part is just a mistake.
Dangerous.

Just one little thing, just one tiny detail... Is there really no room among good people for those who are struggling—those just craving a little attention, some genuine care, a bit of patience, or even just a shred of warmth?

I don't really get what you're trying to say. 😕

That was just a direct continuation of the text; I only added those line breaks to really drive home the distinction between what pushes people away and what draws them in. It’s just a trait. It’s just about people.

So, does what I do actually ripple out and show up in someone else as either good or bad?
Am I mostly a force for good or a force for evil?
I was actually part of that section where you were mostly venting about all those bad experiences, so I figured it’s worth reflecting on—not just for you, but for everyone—how much of that mess is actually our own fault.

why should we even bother reacting? 🤷

because by reacting—whether we actually do something or just sit there—we've already made our move

what is your reaction actually going to accomplish? change things for the better? change someone who just keeps doing the exact same things that drive you crazy?

our response can actually make a difference
you've never once managed to settle a spirit with nothing more than a casual, easygoing smile... have you?
i certainly have
and it could have gone differently too
well, sure... if I hadn't just sulked and instead spoke up, I might have actually shifted the whole situation

...do you really think it's right to expect people to only do what suits you? don't you find that a bit narcissistic?...

maybe selfish or just plain thoughtless??? but usually, it's totally ineffective
so that's not what I'm looking for

but just so we're clear... not expecting someone to dance to my tune doesn't mean I'm not going to react to a terrible dance😁

Every reaction is just a reflection of one's own brokenness and internal conflicts; a self-aware individual accepts and respects this because they KNOW.

I don't get it, why does a reaction necessarily have to be negative in your eyes? 🤷

Well, that specific part of your comment certainly clarifies things.

To be clear, I am not recounting any personal grievances here. I am simply stating that people can be untrustworthy, malicious, and greedy, though those are not my personal observations—as if life has somehow coddled me or the people I associate with aren't wonderful, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't my friends in the first place 😍 What I have laid out refers to the broader scope of humanity and civilization at large. I am speaking objectively about the history of continents like Africa, Asia, and South America being colonized, looted, and humiliated; the cultural genocide and missionary work forced upon indigenous populations; the slave trade; the exploitation of children in sweatshops within the fashion industry; sexual abuse and human trafficking; and ideologies like fascism or Nazism. I am also referring to the economy of suffering, the glorification of victimhood used for blackmail (such as Zionism or certain social movements), corrupt political systems that shield criminality, the black market for human flesh in North Korea, the tragedies of Easter Island, and the genocide in Srebrenica—all while great and humane American and international justice continues to deny such atrocities occurred. This is woven into the very fabric of our civilization, proving that humans are, at their core, predatory, selfish, grasping, cold, and utterly inhuman creatures driven solely by profit. Call them scum, call them filth, call them cosmic waste; name it whatever you wish.

Is a person truly capable of being forgiven simply for being human?

The events occurring in my immediate vicinity feel insignificant to me; thank God, I have never been a part of any greater crime 🙏

EDIT: Every single thing I mentioned took place in our recent history and continues to unfold today. Do you honestly believe that people are inherently good and that they are only driven to commit such monstrous acts by someone else's negative energy (which I assume you were implying was mine)? 🤷

hiddenhound3 said:Well, that specific part of your comment certainly clarifies things.

To be clear, I am not recounting any personal grievances here. I am simply stating that people can be untrustworthy, malicious, and greedy, though those are not my personal observations—as if life has somehow coddled me or the people I associate with aren't wonderful, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't my friends in the first place 😍 What I have laid out refers to the broader scope of humanity and civilization at large. I am speaking objectively about the history of continents like Africa, Asia, and South America being colonized, looted, and humiliated; the cultural genocide and missionary work forced upon indigenous populations; the slave trade; the exploitation of children in sweatshops within the fashion industry; sexual abuse and human trafficking; and ideologies like fascism or Nazism. I am also referring to the economy of suffering, the glorification of victimhood used for blackmail (such as Zionism or certain social movements), corrupt political systems that shield criminality, the black market for human flesh in North Korea, the tragedies of Easter Island, and the genocide in Srebrenica—all while great and humane American and international justice continues to deny such atrocities occurred. This is woven into the very fabric of our civilization, proving that humans are, at their core, predatory, selfish, grasping, cold, and utterly inhuman creatures driven solely by profit. Call them scum, call them filth, call them cosmic waste; name it whatever you wish.

Is a person truly capable of being forgiven simply for being human?

The events occurring in my immediate vicinity feel insignificant to me; thank God, I have never been a part of any greater crime 🙏

EDIT: Every single thing I mentioned took place in our recent history and continues to unfold today. Do you honestly believe that people are inherently good and that they are only driven to commit such monstrous acts by someone else's negative energy (which I assume you were implying was mine)? 🤷

Now we're moving past individual consciousness and getting into collective consciousness... who knows, maybe you'll be the one to tip the scales toward the negative side. It's funny how we all fight our own battles, yet at the same time, we're all fighting this together.

dustyraven26 said:I am not quite sure if we are even discussing the same thing here, or if you feel similarly wounded because a bird decided to drop its mess on your head or a baby accidentally soiled your lap.🤷

I was actually thinking about much more serious accidents than just some chemical runoff. 🤷

Just because you understand and accept that an "accident" happened doesn't mean you aren't hurting inside.

Life keeps moving... and all this new input just makes the whole picture clearer.
Look, the most important thing to take away from what you said is this: being hurt—if you even are—doesn't have to stop you from understanding or accepting the truth.

Look, I can accept the whole "misunderstanding" and everything else that went down, but that doesn't mean I'm some kind of robot without feelings. It’s perfectly logical to acknowledge that I was hurt at one point, and honestly, I don't see why that's such a big deal to just understand.

I don't really go for the whole idea of forgiveness, honestly. It feels like you're trying to wipe away more than just the mistake itself; it's like you're attempting to erase the actual impact it had on you, which isn't really possible because those feelings become a part of who we are, right? But I guess there’s a lot more to unpack there...

I don't see what the big deal is.

hiddenhound3 said:Well, that specific part of your comment certainly clarifies things.

To be clear, I am not recounting any personal grievances here. I am simply stating that people can be untrustworthy, malicious, and greedy, though those are not my personal observations—as if life has somehow coddled me or the people I associate with aren't wonderful, which wouldn't be the case if they weren't my friends in the first place 😍 What I have laid out refers to the broader scope of humanity and civilization at large. I am speaking objectively about the history of continents like Africa, Asia, and South America being colonized, looted, and humiliated; the cultural genocide and missionary work forced upon indigenous populations; the slave trade; the exploitation of children in sweatshops within the fashion industry; sexual abuse and human trafficking; and ideologies like fascism or Nazism. I am also referring to the economy of suffering, the glorification of victimhood used for blackmail (such as Zionism or certain social movements), corrupt political systems that shield criminality, the black market for human flesh in North Korea, the tragedies of Easter Island, and the genocide in Srebrenica—all while great and humane American and international justice continues to deny such atrocities occurred. This is woven into the very fabric of our civilization, proving that humans are, at their core, predatory, selfish, grasping, cold, and utterly inhuman creatures driven solely by profit. Call them scum, call them filth, call them cosmic waste; name it whatever you wish.

Is a person truly capable of being forgiven simply for being human?

The events occurring in my immediate vicinity feel insignificant to me; thank God, I have never been a part of any greater crime 🙏

EDIT: Every single thing I mentioned took place in our recent history and continues to unfold today. Do you honestly believe that people are inherently good and that they are only driven to commit such monstrous acts by someone else's negative energy (which I assume you were implying was mine)? 🤷

It seems like you’re speaking from your own personal experience, which makes it hard for me to wrap my head around why you hold such a bleak view of everything when you have such wonderful people around you. You mentioned those bright spots earlier and said you wouldn't generalize, but honestly, it feels like that's exactly what you're doing.

What I was talking about applies to all of humanity—to civilization and people in general. I’m looking at this objectively: the colonization and systematic looting of Africa, Asia, and South America, where entire populations were humiliated through cultural genocide and forced missionary work. I mean the slave trade, the exploitation of children in sweatshops for the fashion industry, and the horrors of sexual abuse and human trafficking. I’m talking about fascism, Nazism, the business of misery, and how certain groups weaponize victimhood for blackmail. I'm talking about corrupt politics that protect criminals, the black market for human organs in North Korea, the mysteries of Easter Island, and the genocide at Srebrenica—not to mention how some people still refuse to even call it a genocide. Grand and compassionate. The core principles of Western justice and global ethics—things that have been woven into the very fabric of our civilization—all point to the fact that... People have become such predatory, selfish, greedy, cold-hearted, inhuman, disgusting pieces of trash lately—nothing matters to them except their own damn profit. Total scum, honestly. Just absolute cosmic waste. Call it whatever you want...

And you actually think all that junk and space debris... They deserve way more attention than they get, mostly because they're miserable and because... They really just need some patience and a little warmth." 😕 😕

Can you really forgive someone just for being human?

I don't believe in forgiveness—I just don't see the point. I'm pretty sure I've already ranted about this somewhere else.

Look, everything I just said actually happened in our recent past, and honestly, it’s still happening right now. Do you seriously believe people are inherently good and that they only commit these kinds of monstrous atrocities because someone else's negative energy—which I assume you're implying is mine—pushed them to it? 🤷

I wasn't really aiming that at you, why would you think that?

Some people are just pure good, others are straight-up villains; there’s always that gray area in all of us where the light and the dark kind of bleed together. 😁 everything stays within the lines

but honestly, why wouldn't you make life a little easier on yourself? all it takes is a bit of patience, chilling out, not jumping to conclusions so fast, and maybe wearing that cliché smile we all know too well
and besides, how can you be so sure... maybe if you just calm down some idiot, he won't walk through his front door and ignore his wife just because she served him lukewarm soup🤷

they deserve even more attention, honestly... because they're hurting and they really just need some patience and warmth."

I mean, I guess there's some truth to that, if you're talking about getting them actual professional help or finding a community for them. I know from experience... I once tried to show some kindness and common sense to this totally toxic, bitter person, but man, it was such a massive waste of my time and energy.
You just can't fix everything.

Thomas Garcia71 said:

they deserve even more attention, honestly... because they're hurting and they really just need some patience and warmth."

I mean, I guess there's some truth to that, if you're talking about getting them actual professional help or finding a community for them. I know from experience... I once tried to show some kindness and common sense to this totally toxic, bitter person, but man, it was such a massive waste of my time and energy.
You just can't fix everything.

Yeah, sure, maybe, but when exactly does that happen?

after they've already done all the damage they did 😕

edit:
Why would you even bother trying to "rehabilitate" a war criminal? 🤷
It might sound naive, but that guy isn't going to have any more opportunities to commit atrocities, so what's the point?

I mean, obviously I’m not talking about the extremes... I'm referring to those people who walk among us and just end up making life miserable—for everyone else and themselves, really—because of some fundamental failures they refuse to address despite having an actual diagnosis. But honestly, it's not my business and I don't really care enough to get involved...

Sandra Parker3 said:I was actually thinking about much more serious accidents than just some chemical runoff. 🤷

Just because you understand and accept that an "accident" happened doesn't mean you aren't hurting inside.

Life keeps moving... and all this new input just makes the whole picture clearer.
Look, the most important thing to take away from what you said is this: being hurt—if you even are—doesn't have to stop you from understanding or accepting the truth.

Look, I can accept the whole "misunderstanding" and everything else that went down, but that doesn't mean I'm some kind of robot without feelings. It’s perfectly logical to acknowledge that I was hurt at one point, and honestly, I don't see why that's such a big deal to just understand.

I don't really go for the whole idea of forgiveness, honestly. It feels like you're trying to wipe away more than just the mistake itself; it's like you're attempting to erase the actual impact it had on you, which isn't really possible because those feelings become a part of who we are, right? But I guess there’s a lot more to unpack there...

I don't see what the big deal is.

The very nature of being hurt is rooted in relationship; where there is a connection, there is inevitably comparison against an ideal or an expectation.
But I won't linger on the point too long.

hiddenhound3 said:... Because, in my experience, forgiveness carries an equal weight of expectation—for instance, saying "I forgive you now, and I hope this never happens again." That simply isn't how it works. Once you truly accept and understand another person—which primarily requires accepting and understanding yourself—you stop making demands because you recognize that certain patterns will repeat; you have gained insight into their character and realized they have become predictable. If their behavior doesn't suit you, you distance yourself; if you find yourself resenting them and then forgiving them, you are merely talking about your own internal contradictions and your own personal struggles. It is only when you rise above your own issues, deconstruct them, and fully embrace them, that we can actually speak of true acceptance.

That is precisely my own view.

Sandra Parker3 said:Yeah, sure, maybe, but when exactly does that happen?

after they've already done all the damage they did 😕

edit:
Why would you even bother trying to "rehabilitate" a war criminal? 🤷
It might sound naive, but that guy isn't going to have any more opportunities to commit atrocities, so what's the point?

I have had the opportunity to associate with people who lived through the hell of Memphis, San Francisco, and Boston. I understand their traumas, particularly those of the individuals who were merely children at the time.

In my view, the current administration is truly "sick"; they seem far more preoccupied with funneling former public assets into private pockets than they are with providing adequate support to those victims.

However, every government is simply a reflection of its people. It is the citizenry that provides the strength behind the leadership. Consequently, if the government is failing, the nation itself is "sick"—devoid of empathy for individual suffering. In the web of human relationships, some even find these tragedies convenient, as they make their own struggles seem less significant by comparison.

Three ideological empires keep the populace "sick":

1. Collectivism, manifested through authority figures and leaders. It was precisely this force, appearing in the guise of extreme nationalism, that acted as the catalyst for war in this region. Thanks to the global movement toward individualization, human rights, and civil liberties, this empire is finally crumbling.

2. The market, expressed through consumerism. The modern crisis suggests that the market is not nearly as powerful a regulator as we once believed. The premise where profits are privatized while losses are socialized—borne by the taxpayers—is increasingly exposed as hypocritical. Furthermore, consumerism does not aim to satisfy human needs, but rather to generate profit by fueling a constant craving for material goods, effectively turning people into slaves to their possessions.

3. Institutionalized and ritualized religions. Since the primary function of any institution is to protect itself rather than fulfill its founding purpose, organized religions are showing an increasing inability to address contemporary challenges. Invoking tradition is merely a way to mask this impotence. The modern person is fundamentally different from those living two or three millennia ago.

Once these three ideological empires collapse within the human mind, the process of individualization will reach its conclusion, and a person will finally stand alone with themselves. Only then will they have a genuine chance to "heal"—not because they were told to, but because they realize that love and harmony represent true spiritual fulfillment. That is the only actual escape from suffering.