All-day school schedules

Paul Davis2 said:In the USA, it’s all in the laws—and since every state does its own thing, it varies wildly; some have a floor of 14, while others go as low as 9.
Over in the United Kingdom, the legal age is 12.
Just a quick rundown—I didn't dig through the other places just this second.
As for our own traditions, we know how it works—nobody's going to come knocking on your door to check up on you unless something actually catches fire.

What does this have to do with us? We had a relative visit from the United States once, and the guy was terrified to even walk down the street. Constantly looking over his shoulder, asking if everything was safe. We finished up at a restaurant, and he just stood there waiting for everyone else to exit first, watching to see if anyone would get hurt stepping outside.🤷
The less of that American mindset we bring into our shops, the better. We don't need it. 🧐

hiddendriver34 said:I’m really enjoying this thread. There are so many thoughtful and sensible points being made here. 👍

Looking at everything everyone has shared, I’d love to pitch an alternative to the Department of Education. Instead of just pushing for "all-day school," why not launch a comprehensive initiative called something like "21st century teaching"? Here is what I think that project should actually look like:

- Full-day programs in all elementary schools for grades K through 4.
- Modernizing and upgrading our schools so they actually match the era we live in.
- Adding proper kitchens, dining areas, and cozy lounge spaces in every building.
- Hiring more support staff—like janitors and cooks—and making sure they get a decent living wage.
- Giving teachers a much-needed raise.
- Increasing the number of specialists and counselors on campus.
- Beefing up tutoring and extracurriculars, while letting older students (if they're into it!) have the option to knock out their homework during school hours.

Did I miss anything?

That’s how you actually improve the school environment without turning these buildings into glorified prisons.

That said, I'd still implement a rule where kids clean up after themselves, similar to how they do in Japan.

Paul Davis2 said:No, it's absolutely brilliant here. You've got seven-year-olds left totally unsupervised in high-rise apartments on the seventh floor—just hanging out home alone for hours on end. Perfection.
Oh, wait—I forgot. We're genetically gifted, aren't we? These kids spend their solo time being incredibly productive—drawing, reading, teaching themselves an instrument, maybe even brushing up on a second or third language.

A good chunk of us grew up being the ones holding the house key, so we all basically just survived it. Even in the US, it was a relatively common thing, which is why they have that whole "latchkey kid" term. Honestly, it’s kind of fascinating to me that the generation who were those latchkey kids back in elementary school, and are now parents themselves, seems shocked by the idea of kids walking to school alone or being home solo for a few hours. Either way, they just come home, grab a snack, sit in front of a screen, and zone out until the parents get back.

hiddendriver34 said:I’m really enjoying this thread. There are so many thoughtful and sensible points being made here. 👍

Looking at everything everyone has shared, I’d love to pitch an alternative to the Department of Education. Instead of just pushing for "all-day school," why not launch a comprehensive initiative called something like "21st century teaching"? Here is what I think that project should actually look like:

- Full-day programs in all elementary schools for grades K through 4.
- Modernizing and upgrading our schools so they actually match the era we live in.
- Adding proper kitchens, dining areas, and cozy lounge spaces in every building.
- Hiring more support staff—like janitors and cooks—and making sure they get a decent living wage.
- Giving teachers a much-needed raise.
- Increasing the number of specialists and counselors on campus.
- Beefing up tutoring and extracurriculars, while letting older students (if they're into it!) have the option to knock out their homework during school hours.

Did I miss anything?

That’s how you actually improve the school environment without turning these buildings into glorified prisons.

Actually, let me add one more thing:
Establishing centers of excellence, similar to the model used in Varaždin County. That could serve as a real emergency fix for the current shortage of high-quality teachers.

Scott Booth said:Actually, let me add one more thing:
Establishing centers of excellence, similar to the model used in Varaždin County. That could serve as a real emergency fix for the current shortage of high-quality teachers.

Those kinds of excellence centers are already active in about 10 to 15 states.

Paul Davis2 said:Those kinds of excellence centers are already active in about 10 to 15 states.

I know there are more than that out there. Honestly, though, I’m never quite sure what they actually do—sometimes these programs sound incredible on paper, but when you look at how they function in the real world, it’s a different story. I don't know enough about their specific operations to really judge them, but I can speak to the one here in Varaždin County. They offer such a wide variety of specialized subjects for kids to dive into, the organization is solid, and you can tell the teachers are truly giving it their all. It really shows in the students' end results.

We just don't have that kind of thing here. A huge number of schools are struggling to find qualified staff even for basic, everyday classes. And it isn't just limited to STEM. It's been this way for years, passing down from one generation to the next.

nimblelynx7 said:If we actually wanted to protect kids, we’d abolish the Attorney General's office entirely instead of constantly asking for her input. Nothing is perfect, and we already have enough problems—she doesn't need to go inventing new ones.

Exactly. It’s always easy to toss out a few empty platitudes, but she’s nowhere to be found when it’s actually time to take decisive action.

Man, if someone actually thought I’d just go around signing whatever John Doe puts in front of me...

Real reform starts with putting cameras in classrooms, and then we can see where things go from there.

Good grief, that's really all we need to complete the set.

Paul Davis2 said:It’s about time.
The reality is that this reform needs to fundamentally overhaul our school system. We’re lagging behind—especially when it comes to instructional hours (we're practically at the bottom of the pack in the European Union), teacher pay, and overall student performance.

Look, I’m asking you one more time: where exactly did you find this data claiming we're at the bottom of Europe? Because when looking at Euridyc, from education standards to workload norms, we’re basically identical to Finland. Teachers in Finland probably spend the least amount of time in the classroom daily. Sure, they have 190 working days while we have 175—I can't be certain if all their days include professional development, but my eyes are crossing just trying to research this.

Their number of holidays is almost the same as ours; they enjoy very long summer breaks too.

We have the exact same percentage of highly educated professionals in our teaching force.

Our numbers regarding minimum and maximum workloads are practically identical (17/14), and they spend up to 21 hours in school—though total working hours (including prep time...) aren't explicitly listed for them. Then again, I saw some figure of 35.5 from another study. Also, our max load isn't 20 hours; for some subjects, it's 24 (likely outdated data). My load goes up to 22, with a minimum of 18. I personally work 19 subject hours, plus 4 hours for DOD, advisory roles, and ExxonMobil tasks.

Have you even looked at salary scales? Because if we're talking about pay, then yes, we are absolutely at the bottom.

And honestly, I don't know if you realize the nature of the document you're reading. The data is incomplete, missing, or simply unrecorded. Our teachers are buried under administrative mountains, whereas the Finnish Teacher Administration seemingly deals with the absolute bare minimum of paperwork.

Just look at their academic calendar, please.

Go ahead, give us another 15 days. I’m more than willing to work them. Just stop claiming we work the least in Europe. It's simply not true.

rowdypanther12 said:Good grief, that's really all we need to complete the set.

I suspect quite a few people would be rather embarrassed by their own lack of foresight.

rowdypanther12 said:Good grief, that's really all we need to complete the set.

I wouldn't even mind. Honestly. I'd be down for a live stream right from the classroom if it came to it.

Jose Wells3 said:Look, I’m asking you one more time: where exactly did you find this data claiming we're at the bottom of Europe? Because when looking at Euridyc, from education standards to workload norms, we’re basically identical to Finland. Teachers in Finland probably spend the least amount of time in the classroom daily. Sure, they have 190 working days while we have 175—I can't be certain if all their days include professional development, but my eyes are crossing just trying to research this.

Their number of holidays is almost the same as ours; they enjoy very long summer breaks too.

We have the exact same percentage of highly educated professionals in our teaching force.

Our numbers regarding minimum and maximum workloads are practically identical (17/14), and they spend up to 21 hours in school—though total working hours (including prep time...) aren't explicitly listed for them. Then again, I saw some figure of 35.5 from another study. Also, our max load isn't 20 hours; for some subjects, it's 24 (likely outdated data). My load goes up to 22, with a minimum of 18. I personally work 19 subject hours, plus 4 hours for DOD, advisory roles, and ExxonMobil tasks.

Have you even looked at salary scales? Because if we're talking about pay, then yes, we are absolutely at the bottom.

And honestly, I don't know if you realize the nature of the document you're reading. The data is incomplete, missing, or simply unrecorded. Our teachers are buried under administrative mountains, whereas the Finnish Teacher Administration seemingly deals with the absolute bare minimum of paperwork.

Just look at their academic calendar, please.

Go ahead, give us another 15 days. I’m more than willing to work them. Just stop claiming we work the least in Europe. It's simply not true.

We aren't Finland; they have much stricter entry requirements for teacher training programs. Plus, I think they factor in instructional hours (though I should double-check the primary sources since I'm not at my computer right now).

Salaries here need to go up.

It varies by person, but the folks in Stemovac certainly don't work the least—in fact, they carry full workloads. Others work significantly less. There isn't much room to increase the hourly rate for Stemovac teachers, even though that’s what the Department of Education wants.
On top of that, changing the work dynamics and conditions would lead to better schools. I honestly don't know if Finnish teachers even handle their own administration. Who does it for them? Who handles the assessment, the thinking, the descriptions, and the data entry for individual student progress in Finland?
This study isn't ancient (it's from 2020), and the data table is solid and concise.
https://www.scielo.br/j/cp/a/rVwRHXM...at=pdf&lang=en

Paul Davis2 said:We aren't Finland; they have much stricter entry requirements for teacher training programs. Plus, I think they factor in instructional hours (though I should double-check the primary sources since I'm not at my computer right now).

Salaries here need to go up.

It varies by person, but the folks in Stemovac certainly don't work the least—in fact, they carry full workloads. Others work significantly less. There isn't much room to increase the hourly rate for Stemovac teachers, even though that’s what the Department of Education wants.
On top of that, changing the work dynamics and conditions would lead to better schools. I honestly don't know if Finnish teachers even handle their own administration. Who does it for them? Who handles the assessment, the thinking, the descriptions, and the data entry for individual student progress in Finland?
This study isn't ancient (it's from 2020), and the data table is solid and concise.
https://www.scielo.br/j/cp/a/rVwRHXM...at=pdf&lang=en

Contact hours, including a ten-minute break, or perhaps longer if they deem it necessary.

It’s just that one break they're proposing—it feels like it’s just vanishing into thin air. It's like we don't even exist at our jobs during those gaps between classes.

Jose Wells3 said:Contact hours, including a ten-minute break, or perhaps longer if they deem it necessary.

I’m not sure if you’ve had a chance to look, but this document is basically a goldmine of data. It even breaks things down by classroom hours versus extracurricular stuff.
Since we aren't part of the OECD, we can just do some quick math—multiply our instructional hours by the number of weeks in the school year to get our own estimate.

https://www.oecd.org/education/education-at-a-glance/

Paul Davis2 said:I’m not sure if you’ve had a chance to look, but this document is basically a goldmine of data. It even breaks things down by classroom hours versus extracurricular stuff.
Since we aren't part of the OECD, we can just do some quick math—multiply our instructional hours by the number of weeks in the school year to get our own estimate.

https://www.oecd.org/education/education-at-a-glance/

Yeah, I have that document—and the one they cite as the source, which is in English—plus I’ve read the annex too.

So, looking at the stats: a range of 14 to 17 hours, with about 21 teachers reporting availability at school. They list class periods as being either 45 or 60 minutes. We also see about 90 percent of teachers holding a Master's degree (High School Diploma level equivalence). The school year kicks off August 11th and wraps up June 3rd! I was browsing some of their brochures, and apparently, since many parents struggle to find childcare, they organize these organized camps. Their breaks run from December 22nd to January 8th, plus breaks in February and November. No other holidays are listed. Does that sound familiar?
Fair enough, our percentage of teachers with a High School Diploma isn't in that top 10 percent. I'll give you that.

We have the same percentage of people with pedagogical competencies, and there are a few alternative ways to get qualified there.

We have a minimum of 175 working days. This year we actually have more, and it seems like it's trending upward every year.

Why am I obsessed with Finland? Because they’re a homogeneous nation just like us—small population, similar struggles.

From what I follow, some of their newer ambitions are questionable, and they have some pretty heated debates about them. Honestly, they seem almost indifferent toward PISA testing; they argue there are better metrics and that they simply want what’s best for their students within their own context.

Estonia is a bit more direct, but their kids aren't stuck in school from dawn till dusk.

Personally? If I could just teach 25 hours of actual instruction without any homeroom duties, I’d be the happiest person alive. For me, the prep work is actually the fun part—I love designing lessons, grading essays, and playing around with new ideas. What kills me is the homeroom responsibility. The mountain of paperwork, the mediation, the endless emails, the constant contact with parents... sunny or not, just take the homeroom away from me.

And please, stop keeping kids in the classroom until 3:00 PM.

By the way, we aren't far off on that front either; my sixth graders only have 29 hours of regular instruction (not counting tutoring or after-school stuff). Classes end at 1:05 PM, with 15-minute breaks and 5-minute passing periods. In most other countries, breaks range from thirty minutes to an hour and a half—some are even longer, and in some places, they last 40 minutes.

So, 29 hours isn't just your standard schedule—that’s the regular load plus election week stuff included.
The 25-hour mark is what counts as the standard mandatory instruction time.
And where does core curriculum fit into all this?
Basically, we're looking at 24 actual school hours...
My kid's classes wrap up by 12:15 PM if they have morning sessions, but if they're on the afternoon shift, they're stuck there until 7:05 PM because the schedule is such a mess... the only time they get out by 1:00 PM is when there's a gap due to religious studies.

Also, does German class also end at 1:00 PM, even though it's usually scheduled for the opposite shift?

Paul Davis2 said:We aren't Finland; they have much stricter entry requirements for teacher training programs. Plus, I think they factor in instructional hours (though I should double-check the primary sources since I'm not at my computer right now).

Salaries here need to go up.

It varies by person, but the folks in Stemovac certainly don't work the least—in fact, they carry full workloads. Others work significantly less. There isn't much room to increase the hourly rate for Stemovac teachers, even though that’s what the Department of Education wants.
On top of that, changing the work dynamics and conditions would lead to better schools. I honestly don't know if Finnish teachers even handle their own administration. Who does it for them? Who handles the assessment, the thinking, the descriptions, and the data entry for individual student progress in Finland?
This study isn't ancient (it's from 2020), and the data table is solid and concise.
https://www.scielo.br/j/cp/a/rVwRHXM...at=pdf&lang=en

What does it matter that we aren't Finland? Weren't you using the USA and the United Kingdom as benchmarks? We aren't either of those, either.
In Finland, given how much they invest in education, there's no question that both the curriculum and the teaching methods are tailored to age-appropriate developmental competencies. We could look to Estonia as an example; despite being a smaller post-communist nation, they successfully implemented the Finnish model.
But we aren't Estonia. 🙄