All-day school schedules

wanderingbadger44 said:And if you factor in a second elective language, or joining the choir, volleyball, or an art club—how much more could you possibly add to that load?

If you ask me, it's way too much.

It’s like a runaway train; even the high achievers are drowning under four different advanced placements—parents are practically fighting over them or guilt-tripping them into staying enrolled—while the kids struggling with grades are stuck taking four remedial classes just to keep up, and everyone is constantly hovering over them, making them feel miserable if they miss a single session.

Yeah, the kids taking German have it in a different period too.
She went to choir, but then she quit. She goes to the art workshop, but once she gets there, she leaves a note in the digital school portal saying she won't be attending regularly.
She basically just tells me she's exhausted some days, and there is no way I'm forcing her. Look, if she wants to sit at home watching TV and lounging around, fine. If she wants to hang out with her friends outside, absolutely. That’s probably healthier than me breathing down her neck about studying or extra classes.
And now, on top of all that, she has church classes once a week because she's preparing for First Communion.
In the evenings after practice, she’s usually reading her required literature—so we’re talking 10:30 PM to 11:00 PM—which, I guess, puts her at a pretty enviable level of productivity.
Reading all this actually makes me feel a bit uneasy myself. 🫣

shadowtiger0 said:Trying to deal with the FBI's training programs is an entire saga on its own. Honestly, the conditions are pretty brutal most of the time—it’s basically just constant improvisation at this point.

If our local schools actually had even a third of the equipment they have over at a major university's athletic department, we might actually be getting somewhere.

Some schools don't even have a decent gym. It’s not just elementary schools; I bet one of the biggest high schools in the US probably doesn't even have a proper gym for PE.

And the PE teachers... well, they're questionable. Especially the older ones. I recently saw my old elementary school teacher, who was also my homeroom teacher back then. He was a great guy, a handball coach too. When I was his student, he was in his early 40s. Now he's in his early 60s, just counting down the days until retirement. He hasn't let himself go, but age catches up with you. On the other hand, I remember my high school PE teacher—a woman also around 60, right on the edge of retirement—she was tiny. She couldn't demonstrate a single one of the moves she was supposed to grade us on 👎

Since a lot of schools rent out their gyms on weekends, I've checked out quite a few places around Washington, D.C. (finding a slot for small-sided soccer isn't always easy). It's a massive headache. And you can tell at some of them that they were great when they were first built, but there was never much investment in maintenance. 👎

Adam Diaz67 said:Some schools don't even have a decent gym. It’s not just elementary schools; I bet one of the biggest high schools in the US probably doesn't even have a proper gym for PE.

And the PE teachers... well, they're questionable. Especially the older ones. I recently saw my old elementary school teacher, who was also my homeroom teacher back then. He was a great guy, a handball coach too. When I was his student, he was in his early 40s. Now he's in his early 60s, just counting down the days until retirement. He hasn't let himself go, but age catches up with you. On the other hand, I remember my high school PE teacher—a woman also around 60, right on the edge of retirement—she was tiny. She couldn't demonstrate a single one of the moves she was supposed to grade us on 👎

Since a lot of schools rent out their gyms on weekends, I've checked out quite a few places around Washington, D.C. (finding a slot for small-sided soccer isn't always easy). It's a massive headache. And you can tell at some of them that they were great when they were first built, but there was never much investment in maintenance. 👎

I know the drill firsthand—I teach PE.

The issue with this subject is how easily you can "fake it." Try faking Math or English, and see what happens.

I don't have issues with the actual drills because I'm still mobile enough, though who knows where I'll be in 20 years. My struggle is that I’m a big guy, and as you get older, weight becomes a factor; moving 180 lbs is a lot easier than moving 220 lbs when you're older—muscle mass just doesn't behave the same way. And it doesn't matter if that extra weight is muscle instead of fat—gravity doesn't care.

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had to invent obstacle courses, "adjust" scores on equipment, scrape together cash for new balls, or bring my own gear from home only for the kids to lose it... you name it.

Sometimes you write one thing in the grade book and do something completely different because, frankly, it’s impossible to execute the full curriculum as written.

Look, I’m genuinely all for changes and I don't mind the extra work. I'm not even complaining about the pay—as long as the ratio of salary to cost stays steady (which won't happen, thanks inflation), I'm fine. But there is so much that could be fixed with the money the Government is earmarking for this project.

In my opinion, plenty of colleagues should be getting formal warnings, and some honestly deserve to be fired. And predictably, it’s always the people who aren't in short supply—the ones who would literally work as waiters just to keep their jobs—who end up being the problem.

There is so much groundwork that needs to be laid before we even start talking about these kinds of systemic shifts.

If you ask me, the priority should be hiring more psychologists, speech therapists, and special education specialists. Kids today have specific needs, and we need professionals to meet them.

As for the idea of general educators taking over PE for grades 1-4? I actually support that. Not because the elementary teachers are bad—many are fantastic and made it their specialty—but simply because kids are different now and require more specialized instruction. These young kinesiology grads are great; they aren't like the old guard from decades ago.

But honestly, it doesn't matter if you hire 100 kinesiology experts if they don't even have a gym to teach in.

Mark Walker4 said:It isn't impossible, just totally unrealistic. Facebook claims they have $2 billion lined up, but with 619 schools needing upgrades or total rebuilds, you're looking at an average of over $3.2 million per school—and that doesn't even touch the other massive costs tied to a project this size.

In Washington, D.C., they’ve renovated five elementary schools over the last three years. A ton of money was poured into those projects—especially since some of them are historic landmarks, which I suspect makes any kind of expansion pretty much off the table.
If those renovations were done thoroughly—which they likely were—then there shouldn't be any room left for adding more space, meaning they should actually be ready to roll out full-day programs. They ought to have all the necessary classrooms ready for 2028... unless, of course, they don't. 🤔

Sarah Hall53 said:Honestly, if I had my way, I’d pass a law requiring every single politician—and yeah, even their immediate and extended families—to get their healthcare and schooling through our public institutions here in the States. ☕ Maybe then they'd actually give a damn about making sure our public services actually work for everyone else.

👍

Until they address the issue of incompetent staff—which has been systematically ruining entire generations for years—all-day schooling is just going to cause more harm than good. Kids will just endure whatever they have to at school, then head off to some more motivated, sensible environment if they actually have the drive. Same goes for the lack of a plan to handle disruptive students; until the classroom isn't poisoned by an atmosphere that’s unmotivating and unproductive for the kids who actually want to learn, all-day schooling won't achieve anything—if anything, it'll be worse.

On another note... one thing doesn't make sense to me. Why is everyone complaining about computer science being cut? Right now, it’s only required for 5th and 6th graders for two hours a week—under the new plan, it would be required for all eight grades for one hour a week. That’s double the time. I’m not even counting electives; anyone who wants deeper knowledge can just sign up for extracurriculars, which could focus on things like robotics, programming, or digital tools for photo/video editing. For the basics that every kid needs to grasp, one hour a week across all grades sounds perfectly reasonable. The real bottleneck remains the quality of the faculty.

To honestly seems perfectly logical to me—just one hour a week for each subject, covering things like history, geography, chemistry, physics, and biology
That should be more than enough to cover the basics.
And, I suppose, maybe an hour of religious studies a week too, if they really have to include that in the curriculum.

mellowskipper said:To honestly seems perfectly logical to me—just one hour a week for each subject, covering things like history, geography, chemistry, physics, and biology
That should be more than enough to cover the basics.
And, I suppose, maybe an hour of religious studies a week too, if they really have to include that in the curriculum.

I agree.🙂

Personally, I would introduce electives by 7th or 8th grade... maybe one hour of fundamentals, plus two hours for those actually interested in going deeper.

northerntiger9, the shortage of quality teachers stems from negative selection, low salaries, and an endless mountain of paperwork. Toss in difficult parent interactions and a lack of actual accountability, and you see how everything is connected...

Kate Jackson4 said:I agree.🙂

Personally, I would introduce electives by 7th or 8th grade... maybe one hour of fundamentals, plus two hours for those actually interested in going deeper.

northerntiger9, the shortage of quality teachers stems from negative selection, low salaries, and an endless mountain of paperwork. Toss in difficult parent interactions and a lack of actual accountability, and you see how everything is connected...

I’m actually part of that selection process myself—just on the other side 😬 so, unfortunately, I know the score. Until we fix the underlying issues, there’s no point in forcing mandates on anyone, much less hiking hourly rates for people who won't be there to collect them.

I can't quite wrap my head around how these extracurricular activities are actually supposed to work. From what I gather, the school might just sign a contract with an outside organization to run their own programs on campus. So, if they strike a deal with a local basketball club or a chess academy, that’s what you get at the school. But what about kids enrolled in music school? They’d be stuck taking classes exclusively in the late afternoon or even evening. What is the actual plan for the music and dance academies, which also fall under the Department of Education? How are they expected to schedule lessons for everyone strictly during after-school hours? Kids would practically have to quit music altogether because the school only offers tiny little ensembles, and by the time they finish, there's no time left to make it to their actual music lessons and still find time to practice.

As for those comments suggesting "we wouldn't be doing this if Europe didn't recommend it," I honestly can't help but laugh. Over the last thirty years, we've implemented all sorts of systems just because someone "in Europe" thought it was a good idea, and we've completely botched it because nobody bothered to consider our own traditions, culture, or technical capabilities. Every once in a while, some project floats over from Europe—across every single sector—that exists primarily so the people running it can line their pockets and claim a "success story." Naturally, these types of projects wouldn't fly in Finland or Belgium, so they're sold to us, to people who jump at anything labeled "European." Lately, even our own experts have been doing the same thing, trying to sell half-baked ideas to Canada, Mexico, Mexico, and Albania.

Look, I’ve been there. Personally, I’ve sat through all these classes, and after dealing with computer science teachers from all over—different schools, different vibes—it seems like the pattern is always the same. You get that two-hour block, and the first hour is actually productive, you know? They go over the material, tackle some problems... but then the second hour? It basically turns into gaming time. Sometimes the whole second period is just people playing games, or maybe just the last thirty minutes. It's a bit of a joke, honestly.
So, I guess if they only have one period on the schedule, the gaming part just doesn't happen.

northerntiger9 said:Until they address the issue of incompetent staff—which has been systematically ruining entire generations for years—all-day schooling is just going to cause more harm than good. Kids will just endure whatever they have to at school, then head off to some more motivated, sensible environment if they actually have the drive. Same goes for the lack of a plan to handle disruptive students; until the classroom isn't poisoned by an atmosphere that’s unmotivating and unproductive for the kids who actually want to learn, all-day schooling won't achieve anything—if anything, it'll be worse.

On another note... one thing doesn't make sense to me. Why is everyone complaining about computer science being cut? Right now, it’s only required for 5th and 6th graders for two hours a week—under the new plan, it would be required for all eight grades for one hour a week. That’s double the time. I’m not even counting electives; anyone who wants deeper knowledge can just sign up for extracurriculars, which could focus on things like robotics, programming, or digital tools for photo/video editing. For the basics that every kid needs to grasp, one hour a week across all grades sounds perfectly reasonable. The real bottleneck remains the quality of the faculty.

In second grade, it's an elective, and enrollment is sitting at 70%.

The whole all-day school model is designed so teachers finish their morning classes, wait out lunch and recess, and then run makeup sessions, extra help, and Coca-Cola clubs during the afternoon shift. You end up with the exact same number of teaching hours, just layered with extra duty.

It’s just more direct contact hours—more and more. They’re bumping everyone’s quota up to 20 or 22 hours now, which is wild. And all those tasks that were already massive time sinks—stuff like being a homeroom teacher, managing schedules, handling shift rotations, or dealing with all that endless paperwork—they used to count toward your required teaching hours. It was a fair trade. But now? Now they’ve just lumped everything into "other duties." So, some poor soul is still expected to grind through it all, but instead of it counting toward the requirement, it’s all shoved into extra work *after* you've already finished a full 20-hour load plus another 6 or 8 hours of supplemental stuff. It's exhausting.
They're basically asking us to pull more weight for the exact same paycheck. It's just plain old exploitation.

Some bureaucrat has apparently decided to sneak a dangerous precedent into the official documentation by converting teaching hours into these so-called "solar hours." Once again, it’s glaringly obvious we are dealing with people who have zero practical experience in a classroom. It’s a sneaky way to force a mandatory 20+ hour instructional norm on everyone, which is physically impossible to execute without massive technological surpluses—and that isn't even just an issue for computer science teachers. Everything else people used to do within their full load—supplementary work, extra duties, hourly instructors, department heads, administrators—is all being pushed into those afternoon hours, outside the official norm.

I don't know; day by day, I find myself more discouraged and bewildered by the cowardice being shoved down our throats and why we even allow it.
About ten years ago, I actually loved coming into school. I found joy in the work, laughed and cried with my students, and stayed involved in everything. But then you sink into this filthy system like it's quicksand, and it breaks your heart to see what they are doing to people. When the skilled and motivated professionals finally leave, they will be replaced by the incompetent and the poorly trained, people who will lower the standards and turn children into mindless drones.

Here is the crowd deciding our educational fate: a bunch of partisan hacks, all of them deeply entrenched in corruption.
https://www.politico.com/news/how-they-stole-millions-of-dollars/

Sarah Hall53 said:It’s just more direct contact hours—more and more. They’re bumping everyone’s quota up to 20 or 22 hours now, which is wild. And all those tasks that were already massive time sinks—stuff like being a homeroom teacher, managing schedules, handling shift rotations, or dealing with all that endless paperwork—they used to count toward your required teaching hours. It was a fair trade. But now? Now they’ve just lumped everything into "other duties." So, some poor soul is still expected to grind through it all, but instead of it counting toward the requirement, it’s all shoved into extra work *after* you've already finished a full 20-hour load plus another 6 or 8 hours of supplemental stuff. It's exhausting.
They're basically asking us to pull more weight for the exact same paycheck. It's just plain old exploitation.

Right. And then you see some news outlet claim that "not much is changing." How is that "not much"?

Bryan Wells11 said:Some bureaucrat has apparently decided to sneak a dangerous precedent into the official documentation by converting teaching hours into these so-called "solar hours." Once again, it’s glaringly obvious we are dealing with people who have zero practical experience in a classroom. It’s a sneaky way to force a mandatory 20+ hour instructional norm on everyone, which is physically impossible to execute without massive technological surpluses—and that isn't even just an issue for computer science teachers. Everything else people used to do within their full load—supplementary work, extra duties, hourly instructors, department heads, administrators—is all being pushed into those afternoon hours, outside the official norm.

I don't know; day by day, I find myself more discouraged and bewildered by the cowardice being shoved down our throats and why we even allow it.
About ten years ago, I actually loved coming into school. I found joy in the work, laughed and cried with my students, and stayed involved in everything. But then you sink into this filthy system like it's quicksand, and it breaks your heart to see what they are doing to people. When the skilled and motivated professionals finally leave, they will be replaced by the incompetent and the poorly trained, people who will lower the standards and turn children into mindless drones.

Here is the crowd deciding our educational fate: a bunch of partisan hacks, all of them deeply entrenched in corruption.
https://www.politico.com/news/how-they-stole-millions-of-dollars/

Because there are people who have decided, for reasons known only to them, that this "minor adjustment" benefits both them and the students.

Maybe she’s in the exact same boat I am—right now, I’m juggling 20 hours of pure teaching time, spread across five different classes and eight different curricula. Throw in an hour of remedial sessions and an hour of enrichment, plus my elective subject which usually adds another 10 to 15 hours to my plate... honestly, the only thing actually increasing for me is my duty roster.
Then there’s this one colleague who’s sitting at 17 hours, plus her homeroom duties and electives; she’ll basically keep doing what she’s always done, except now she won't even hit her full workload—she'll be three hours short of a full schedule.
And look at our math teacher—she’s at 16 instruction hours, four math classes, plus homeroom, remedial, enrichment, and her extra work with ExxonMobil. If she were working under the Democratic Party, those four classes would already count for 20 hours—and then she'd still have to pile on the homeroom, the extra sessions, and the ExxonMobil stuff on top of that.
As for the computer science teacher... her hours are getting cut by half, and since her scheduling duties are rolled into everything else—and let me tell you, trying to coordinate a schedule in a school where almost every single teacher works at multiple campuses is a total nightmare—well, you can imagine how stressed she is.

Sarah Hall53 said:Maybe she’s in the exact same boat I am—right now, I’m juggling 20 hours of pure teaching time, spread across five different classes and eight different curricula. Throw in an hour of remedial sessions and an hour of enrichment, plus my elective subject which usually adds another 10 to 15 hours to my plate... honestly, the only thing actually increasing for me is my duty roster.
Then there’s this one colleague who’s sitting at 17 hours, plus her homeroom duties and electives; she’ll basically keep doing what she’s always done, except now she won't even hit her full workload—she'll be three hours short of a full schedule.
And look at our math teacher—she’s at 16 instruction hours, four math classes, plus homeroom, remedial, enrichment, and her extra work with ExxonMobil. If she were working under the Democratic Party, those four classes would already count for 20 hours—and then she'd still have to pile on the homeroom, the extra sessions, and the ExxonMobil stuff on top of that.
As for the computer science teacher... her hours are getting cut by half, and since her scheduling duties are rolled into everything else—and let me tell you, trying to coordinate a schedule in a school where almost every single teacher works at multiple campuses is a total nightmare—well, you can imagine how stressed she is.

I'm guessing your school doesn't run on a single shift? At my school, nobody breaks a sweat; everyone thinks what you're describing is just impossible.😁

Yeah, it’s basically a tiny little rural schoolhouse—just one single grade level with no other classes running alongside it—and then there's our regional hub, which is just a combined department setup. Every year, we all end up placing bets on whether this will finally be the year they decide to pull the plug and shut us down for good.

Sarah Hall53 said:Yeah, it’s basically a tiny little rural schoolhouse—just one single grade level with no other classes running alongside it—and then there's our regional hub, which is just a combined department setup. Every year, we all end up placing bets on whether this will finally be the year they decide to pull the plug and shut us down for good.

Man.

northerntiger9 said:Until they address the issue of incompetent staff—which has been systematically ruining entire generations for years—all-day schooling is just going to cause more harm than good. Kids will just endure whatever they have to at school, then head off to some more motivated, sensible environment if they actually have the drive. Same goes for the lack of a plan to handle disruptive students; until the classroom isn't poisoned by an atmosphere that’s unmotivating and unproductive for the kids who actually want to learn, all-day schooling won't achieve anything—if anything, it'll be worse.

On another note... one thing doesn't make sense to me. Why is everyone complaining about computer science being cut? Right now, it’s only required for 5th and 6th graders for two hours a week—under the new plan, it would be required for all eight grades for one hour a week. That’s double the time. I’m not even counting electives; anyone who wants deeper knowledge can just sign up for extracurriculars, which could focus on things like robotics, programming, or digital tools for photo/video editing. For the basics that every kid needs to grasp, one hour a week across all grades sounds perfectly reasonable. The real bottleneck remains the quality of the faculty.

To be fair, some people in education take the job because the hours are relatively short, leaving them free to do tutoring or other side gigs. I actually know a few teachers who are pretty open about that.
Those sensationalist headlines claiming that after full-day schooling, tutoring won't be necessary (because everything will be covered in those two extra hours) are actually designed to ensure that any extra work after school becomes impossible, especially alongside those tiny teacher raises.
So, while it's true teachers might not (yet) be doing tutoring during their off-hours, the real question is: who is going to help these kids catch up?

I'll say it again: if you haven't had a kid in third grade stuck in after-school care, you have no idea how much of a nightmare that extra instruction can be. And don't even get me started on subject-specific tutoring, especially since after-school programs used to include breaks—breaks during recess or downtime for those who didn't participate in extra sessions.
Now, everything is becoming mandatory for everyone.
Just sitting in a chair. Endless hours of staring at nothing.
No moving around.
No getting outside for a breath of fresh air or some sunlight during the winter months.

People talk about how not all kids go to sports (and they shouldn't have to), but you have to consider that most elementary schools are neighborhood-based. Walking home is a form of movement that helps kids reset their concentration for studying, which is way more important than sitting in a classroom until late afternoon.
Sometimes kids just need to walk to the corner store, but the schools lock the doors and won't let them out.
They aren't allowed out even during free periods (not by choice).

northerntiger9 said:Until they address the issue of incompetent staff—which has been systematically ruining entire generations for years—all-day schooling is just going to cause more harm than good. Kids will just endure whatever they have to at school, then head off to some more motivated, sensible environment if they actually have the drive. Same goes for the lack of a plan to handle disruptive students; until the classroom isn't poisoned by an atmosphere that’s unmotivating and unproductive for the kids who actually want to learn, all-day schooling won't achieve anything—if anything, it'll be worse.

On another note... one thing doesn't make sense to me. Why is everyone complaining about computer science being cut? Right now, it’s only required for 5th and 6th graders for two hours a week—under the new plan, it would be required for all eight grades for one hour a week. That’s double the time. I’m not even counting electives; anyone who wants deeper knowledge can just sign up for extracurriculars, which could focus on things like robotics, programming, or digital tools for photo/video editing. For the basics that every kid needs to grasp, one hour a week across all grades sounds perfectly reasonable. The real bottleneck remains the quality of the faculty.

It's because computer science, which was an elective for 1st through 4th grade, was treated as "equal" to Religion classes. Now, Religion (or its philosophical equivalent) will be mandatory, along with computer science—except Religion will be two hours a week, and computer science will be one.

Any parent with a shred of common sense can see how ridiculous it is to blow money on useless gadgets when we can barely afford to pay an actual computer science teacher. On the flip side, we have plenty of funding for theology instructors and those teaching subjects that don't seem to have much practical application—not to mention the constant push to hire more staff for those roles. Meanwhile, there’s a real shortage of tech specialists in the job market. And honestly, that gap is only going to widen because some schools won't offer competitive enough hourly rates to attract them. Even if they did, the classes needed to fill those slots would likely be scheduled late in the afternoon. That means any decent IT professional would end up with a totally fragmented schedule, making their workday pretty much a mess compared to a standard 9-to-5.