The Philosophy of Self-Reliance

Imagine if we were stuck living in that awful era described by Mr. Matoš.😁

“False nobles – imperial tax collectors,
Empty Dark Knights, kin to the devil,
Liars, actors, battalions of gold,
Fake shepherds and fake barons,
Slaves to phrases and holy youths,
Vain pedants, white tombs,
Fake journals and fake jewels,
Cheapskate dolls and bazaar slaves,
Subservient slaves, filthy sophists,
Superfluous zealots, sweet egoists,
Descendants of the Scoundrel and Branko’s Wolf,
Merchants of thought, swindlers of the masses,
A beggar clutching a doctor’s degree,
Old Debauchees wearing churchmen’s faces,
Syphilis-progress and cultural woes,
An advanced nation eating the weak,
Shallow prophets of United Kingdom benefits,
New vices on rotting pillars....“

(Mr. Matoš, Mora)

We have kids, and we need to prepare them to handle life on their own. What should we teach them?
To be corrupt to the core, or to be hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

Just so they can be productive and corrupt. 😁

Honesty is such a slippery concept, isn't it? In some sort of grand, cosmic moral arithmetic, one person's integrity inevitably balances out as someone else's injustice somewhere down the line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiFFdQUxO1Y 😍

Mark Torres14 It’s funny how things turn out, isn't it? I was just thinking about what someone said the other day, and it really stuck with me.
We have kids to raise, and I really feel like our biggest job is teaching them how to actually stand on their own two feet when they head out into the world. It makes me think back to when my own kids were little and we started letting them handle small chores around the house; it’s those little moments that build real confidence. What kind of life skills do you all think we should be focusing on most?
Do you think people should be corrupt to the core, or is it better to just stay hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

He’s such a hardworking, honest guy.

I totally get where you're coming from... there's a real chance that if we raise our kids to be hardworking and principled—instead of teaching them how to be "corrupt to the core"—they might actually struggle a bit more once they hit adulthood. They’ll probably face longer stretches of unemployment because they refuse to compromise their ideals, take lower paychecks, work way harder than necessary, and ultimately never become obscenely wealthy. I remember my own father used to say that integrity always comes with a price tag, and looking at how things work in America today, it really feels like he was right.
It’s just so heartbreaking when you have to watch your child go through all that struggle... as a parent, seeing them face those kinds of battles really weighs heavy on your heart.
It really hits home when you see how easy life seems for those kids who grew up with everything handed to them on a silver platter.
You know, I catch myself wondering if I actually made a mistake sometimes. Was I just being foolish? It’s honestly pretty easy to play the fool when you're only dealing with your own life, but when it comes down to your kids and making sure they're okay, all those rigid rules about what's "right" or "proper" just go right out the window.
Honestly, I don't really think they need to be moved at all.
I honestly feel like someone who lives their life with genuine energy and stays true to their word just ends up so much more satisfied, you know? It’s like they get to enjoy these much sweeter, more beautiful dreams at night because their conscience is totally clear.

Besides, I’ve always found that time is a pretty relentless ally when it comes to the truth, isn't it?
I’ve always believed that if you just stay focused and keep your head down, doing things the right way, your hard work will eventually catch up to you and everyone will see what you're truly made of.
There’s really no reason to worry that having those kinds of qualities makes someone "weak."
In the grand scheme of things, that approach always ends up being a huge advantage.

driftingbear20 said:

Mark Torres14 It’s funny how things turn out, isn't it? I was just thinking about what someone said the other day, and it really stuck with me.
We have kids to raise, and I really feel like our biggest job is teaching them how to actually stand on their own two feet when they head out into the world. It makes me think back to when my own kids were little and we started letting them handle small chores around the house; it’s those little moments that build real confidence. What kind of life skills do you all think we should be focusing on most?
Do you think people should be corrupt to the core, or is it better to just stay hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

He’s such a hardworking, honest guy.

I totally get where you're coming from... there's a real chance that if we raise our kids to be hardworking and principled—instead of teaching them how to be "corrupt to the core"—they might actually struggle a bit more once they hit adulthood. They’ll probably face longer stretches of unemployment because they refuse to compromise their ideals, take lower paychecks, work way harder than necessary, and ultimately never become obscenely wealthy. I remember my own father used to say that integrity always comes with a price tag, and looking at how things work in America today, it really feels like he was right.
It’s just so heartbreaking when you have to watch your child go through all that struggle... as a parent, seeing them face those kinds of battles really weighs heavy on your heart.
It really hits home when you see how easy life seems for those kids who grew up with everything handed to them on a silver platter.
You know, I catch myself wondering if I actually made a mistake sometimes. Was I just being foolish? It’s honestly pretty easy to play the fool when you're only dealing with your own life, but when it comes down to your kids and making sure they're okay, all those rigid rules about what's "right" or "proper" just go right out the window.
Honestly, I don't really think they need to be moved at all.
I honestly feel like someone who lives their life with genuine energy and stays true to their word just ends up so much more satisfied, you know? It’s like they get to enjoy these much sweeter, more beautiful dreams at night because their conscience is totally clear.

Besides, I’ve always found that time is a pretty relentless ally when it comes to the truth, isn't it?
I’ve always believed that if you just stay focused and keep your head down, doing things the right way, your hard work will eventually catch up to you and everyone will see what you're truly made of.
There’s really no reason to worry that having those kinds of qualities makes someone "weak."
In the grand scheme of things, that approach always ends up being a huge advantage.

Oh, please. Time is an ally to the truth? What if the truth is that this celebrated Western honesty is actually immoral? Who cares about a truth like that? Is it even fair to go to theaters and concerts while a huge portion of the world doesn't even know how they're going to feed their kids tomorrow? One forum regular mentioned that people here are often depressed 😢 so they need artists to give some semblance of meaning to their miserable existence. They find entertainment in what is "twisted and obscene"—ho ho, how avant-garde the culture of death or some consumerist miracle produced by the cultural industry. They don't see the twisted and obscene within themselves. And then someone comes along and suggests we should be honest with these people. Well, I'll be the first to say it. 👍

ironmarlin1 said:Just so they can be productive and corrupt. 😁

Honesty is such a slippery concept, isn't it? In some sort of grand, cosmic moral arithmetic, one person's integrity inevitably balances out as someone else's injustice somewhere down the line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiFFdQUxO1Y 😍

Since you brought up Brecht, I have to drop his next poem on you:

Questioning Goodness

Step forward; we have heard
That you are a good man.
You cannot be bribed, nor can the lightning
That strikes a house—that too
Cannot be bribed.
You stick to what you said.
But what was it you actually said?
You are honest, you say your piece.
Which piece?
You are brave.
Against whom?
You are wise.
For whom?
You don't care about your own gain.
Whose gain, then, do you care about?
You are a good friend.
Are you also a good friend to good people?

Listen to us; we know
That you are our enemy. So we will
Put you against the wall now. But considering your
Merits and virtues
We will put you against a good wall and shoot you
With a good bullet from a good gun and bury you
With a good shovel in good soil.

Bertolt Brecht – from Slavoj Žižek’s book – on violence "can a man

Can a person truly be good, or is everything just a matter of measuring different levels of corruption?

driftingbear20 said:

Mark Torres14 It’s funny how things turn out, isn't it? I was just thinking about what someone said the other day, and it really stuck with me.
We have kids to raise, and I really feel like our biggest job is teaching them how to actually stand on their own two feet when they head out into the world. It makes me think back to when my own kids were little and we started letting them handle small chores around the house; it’s those little moments that build real confidence. What kind of life skills do you all think we should be focusing on most?
Do you think people should be corrupt to the core, or is it better to just stay hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

He’s such a hardworking, honest guy.

I totally get where you're coming from... there's a real chance that if we raise our kids to be hardworking and principled—instead of teaching them how to be "corrupt to the core"—they might actually struggle a bit more once they hit adulthood. They’ll probably face longer stretches of unemployment because they refuse to compromise their ideals, take lower paychecks, work way harder than necessary, and ultimately never become obscenely wealthy. I remember my own father used to say that integrity always comes with a price tag, and looking at how things work in America today, it really feels like he was right.
It’s just so heartbreaking when you have to watch your child go through all that struggle... as a parent, seeing them face those kinds of battles really weighs heavy on your heart.
It really hits home when you see how easy life seems for those kids who grew up with everything handed to them on a silver platter.
You know, I catch myself wondering if I actually made a mistake sometimes. Was I just being foolish? It’s honestly pretty easy to play the fool when you're only dealing with your own life, but when it comes down to your kids and making sure they're okay, all those rigid rules about what's "right" or "proper" just go right out the window.
Honestly, I don't really think they need to be moved at all.
I honestly feel like someone who lives their life with genuine energy and stays true to their word just ends up so much more satisfied, you know? It’s like they get to enjoy these much sweeter, more beautiful dreams at night because their conscience is totally clear.

Besides, I’ve always found that time is a pretty relentless ally when it comes to the truth, isn't it?
I’ve always believed that if you just stay focused and keep your head down, doing things the right way, your hard work will eventually catch up to you and everyone will see what you're truly made of.
There’s really no reason to worry that having those kinds of qualities makes someone "weak."
In the grand scheme of things, that approach always ends up being a huge advantage.

That's a really interesting point. But why is she more satisfied?
Ever notice how you get this little rush of satisfaction when you finally pay off a bill, settle a debt, or give someone a gift and they actually appreciate it? Why does that happen?
A total Scoundrel would just feel miserable having to part with anything.
Reminds me of that old saying, "Give a hand to a friend."😁

Mark Torres14 said:That's a really interesting point. But why is she more satisfied?
Ever notice how you get this little rush of satisfaction when you finally pay off a bill, settle a debt, or give someone a gift and they actually appreciate it? Why does that happen?
A total Scoundrel would just feel miserable having to part with anything.
Reminds me of that old saying, "Give a hand to a friend."😁

It’s because we only really prove our own existence through the eyes of others—I guess that's just how it works. We rely on everyone else to give some kind of meaning to our lives, or maybe we just need them to make us feel like we actually exist.🙂

Mark Torres14 said:Imagine if we were stuck living in that awful era described by Mr. Matoš.😁

“False nobles – imperial tax collectors,
Empty Dark Knights, kin to the devil,
Liars, actors, battalions of gold,
Fake shepherds and fake barons,
Slaves to phrases and holy youths,
Vain pedants, white tombs,
Fake journals and fake jewels,
Cheapskate dolls and bazaar slaves,
Subservient slaves, filthy sophists,
Superfluous zealots, sweet egoists,
Descendants of the Scoundrel and Branko’s Wolf,
Merchants of thought, swindlers of the masses,
A beggar clutching a doctor’s degree,
Old Debauchees wearing churchmen’s faces,
Syphilis-progress and cultural woes,
An advanced nation eating the weak,
Shallow prophets of United Kingdom benefits,
New vices on rotting pillars....“

(Mr. Matoš, Mora)

We have kids, and we need to prepare them to handle life on their own. What should we teach them?
To be corrupt to the core, or to be hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

Honestly, you should probably be weighing these things out BEFORE you decide to start a family in the first place!

I mean, there's no use beating yourself up about it now—you can't unring that bell...

...but hey, don't sweat it too much—if you did mess up, just keep in mind that your kids are the ones who'll end up footing the bill eventually.😍

Mark Torres14 said:Since you brought up Brecht, I have to drop his next poem on you:

Questioning Goodness

Step forward; we have heard
That you are a good man.
You cannot be bribed, nor can the lightning
That strikes a house—that too
Cannot be bribed.
You stick to what you said.
But what was it you actually said?
You are honest, you say your piece.
Which piece?
You are brave.
Against whom?
You are wise.
For whom?
You don't care about your own gain.
Whose gain, then, do you care about?
You are a good friend.
Are you also a good friend to good people?

Listen to us; we know
That you are our enemy. So we will
Put you against the wall now. But considering your
Merits and virtues
We will put you against a good wall and shoot you
With a good bullet from a good gun and bury you
With a good shovel in good soil.

Bertolt Brecht – from Slavoj Žižek’s book – on violence "can a man

Can a person truly be good, or is everything just a matter of measuring different levels of corruption?

First off, you've gotta define what "good" even means.

Look, Servantes, your question is way too broad. It’s so vague there isn't even much point in trying to debate it.

It’s basically just a synonym for asking: Should the world be entirely White or entirely Black?

(Let's face it, idealists don't exactly have it easy in today's world) 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Mark Torres14 said:That's a really interesting point. But why is she more satisfied?
Ever notice how you get this little rush of satisfaction when you finally pay off a bill, settle a debt, or give someone a gift and they actually appreciate it? Why does that happen?
A total Scoundrel would just feel miserable having to part with anything.
Reminds me of that old saying, "Give a hand to a friend."😁

That's a fair point, certainly, but I think the flip side is just as fascinating to observe. Have you noticed how easily someone can commit a theft, perpetrate a fraud, or exploit another person entirely, yet somehow manage to walk away still convinced they are a fundamentally good person? It's quite a psychological feat, really.

ironmarlin1 said:That's a fair point, certainly, but I think the flip side is just as fascinating to observe. Have you noticed how easily someone can commit a theft, perpetrate a fraud, or exploit another person entirely, yet somehow manage to walk away still convinced they are a fundamentally good person? It's quite a psychological feat, really.

True. But I guess that’s just psychology at work.

Laura Rivera3 said:True. But I guess that’s just psychology at work.

Sure, but then you have to wonder if the second part isn't actually rooted in that divine spark within us, or perhaps some deeper, more profound capacity for loving the Other?

Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, Servantes, your question is way too broad. It’s so vague there isn't even much point in trying to debate it.

It’s basically just a synonym for asking: Should the world be entirely White or entirely Black?

(Let's face it, idealists don't exactly have it easy in today's world) 😬

Ronald Rogers27

Life is easiest when you're either for something or against it.
But I think it was implied what I meant by good. That's why I gave that long-winded intro. I drifted off with David and Brecht for a second, but we got back on track eventually.
By good, I mean socially good. Or being a man of his word, having ideals, being worthy, and not trying to screw over anyone else.
We can put it another way.
Take a business school, for example.
Do we teach students how to rip off customers or how to be honest? Which path is actually realistic and sustainable for the long haul so our future economy doesn't collapse (assuming the world is like America or just some chaotic region)?

Mark Torres14 said:Imagine if we were stuck living in that awful era described by Mr. Matoš.😁

“False nobles – imperial tax collectors,
Empty Dark Knights, kin to the devil,
Liars, actors, battalions of gold,
Fake shepherds and fake barons,
Slaves to phrases and holy youths,
Vain pedants, white tombs,
Fake journals and fake jewels,
Cheapskate dolls and bazaar slaves,
Subservient slaves, filthy sophists,
Superfluous zealots, sweet egoists,
Descendants of the Scoundrel and Branko’s Wolf,
Merchants of thought, swindlers of the masses,
A beggar clutching a doctor’s degree,
Old Debauchees wearing churchmen’s faces,
Syphilis-progress and cultural woes,
An advanced nation eating the weak,
Shallow prophets of United Kingdom benefits,
New vices on rotting pillars....“

(Mr. Matoš, Mora)

We have kids, and we need to prepare them to handle life on their own. What should we teach them?
To be corrupt to the core, or to be hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

The goal should be for them to live in harmony with their own moral compass whenever possible...
I honestly feel like that’s the only kind of life that lets you actually sink into some restorative peace when things finally slow down for a second. I assume that the happiness that comes from that is exactly what we want for our children, just like we want it for ourselves and everyone else out there...
Anything else is basically just teaching them how to trade away real values for superficial stuff, like material wealth or social hierarchy...
It makes sense...😁
I guess I'm okay with whatever happens, I'll just be whatever they want me to be...

ironmarlin1 said:That's a fair point, certainly, but I think the flip side is just as fascinating to observe. Have you noticed how easily someone can commit a theft, perpetrate a fraud, or exploit another person entirely, yet somehow manage to walk away still convinced they are a fundamentally good person? It's quite a psychological feat, really.

I don't think they actually hold onto it. It’s more like they just smother that internal scream until it goes quiet... And when life finally hits them hard, they rarely connect their misery back to the things they did to others, it’s almost always about what everyone else did to them instead...

Mark Torres14, life is basically just this endless tug-of-war between Good and Evil, between the East and the West, and between the struggle "to be" versus the obsession with "to have"... But honestly, most of the time, it’s just a fight between Good and Good, at the end of the day! 😍

Ronald Rogers27

Mark Torres14 said:Imagine if we were stuck living in that awful era described by Mr. Matoš.😁

“False nobles – imperial tax collectors,
Empty Dark Knights, kin to the devil,
Liars, actors, battalions of gold,
Fake shepherds and fake barons,
Slaves to phrases and holy youths,
Vain pedants, white tombs,
Fake journals and fake jewels,
Cheapskate dolls and bazaar slaves,
Subservient slaves, filthy sophists,
Superfluous zealots, sweet egoists,
Descendants of the Scoundrel and Branko’s Wolf,
Merchants of thought, swindlers of the masses,
A beggar clutching a doctor’s degree,
Old Debauchees wearing churchmen’s faces,
Syphilis-progress and cultural woes,
An advanced nation eating the weak,
Shallow prophets of United Kingdom benefits,
New vices on rotting pillars....“

(Mr. Matoš, Mora)

We have kids, and we need to prepare them to handle life on their own. What should we teach them?
To be corrupt to the core, or to be hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

Just the honest route.

Generally speaking, people talk nonsense about this, but independence—honestly, all those "just" qualities—isn't something you teach by cramming facts into a student's head; it’s more like drawing the knowledge out of them.

If you start lecturing them with things like, "Independence means this and that, and here is how you achieve it," the very first thing you're actually teaching them is that they aren't independent yet—that they still need to become something later, under someone else's guidance. And just like that, independence goes right down the drain.

It has to work the other way around. When they actually do something on their own, you step in with something like: "See? You did that all by yourself. It's called X because Y... and you did it exactly like this... BRAVO! That's my boy, give me five!" You basically just help them realize that they already possess that independence.

Make sense? 😁

This is exactly what you need to be weighing—long before you even think about having kids.
It’s too late for regrets now—there's no turning back from this path.
Don't sweat it too much—even if you really messed up—because, let's face it, your kids will end up footing the bill anyway.

You’re becoming quite skilled—a real shaman out there—right now... truly impressive.

... and regarding that topic — Mark Torres14 ...

You missed the point—this thread is about what makes something good, not about being independent.
Look, this isn't actually about the kids—it's about you. What exactly are we supposed to be teaching them when it's clear you haven't even figured it out yourself yet?
Topic number three... it’s about procrastination—specifically, the delay of one's own life. It goes like this: given that I can no longer teach myself—mostly because I'm getting older and, frankly, a bit more frail than I'd like to admit—should I find someone else... and focus on teaching them instead?

... one more thing — just so I'm sure I caught everything and didn't miss the point.

I believe we're on this planet to do some actual good for others—to leave things better than we found them. As for what everyone else is actually doing while they're here? Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue.

Mark Torres14 said:Imagine if we were stuck living in that awful era described by Mr. Matoš.😁

“False nobles – imperial tax collectors,
Empty Dark Knights, kin to the devil,
Liars, actors, battalions of gold,
Fake shepherds and fake barons,
Slaves to phrases and holy youths,
Vain pedants, white tombs,
Fake journals and fake jewels,
Cheapskate dolls and bazaar slaves,
Subservient slaves, filthy sophists,
Superfluous zealots, sweet egoists,
Descendants of the Scoundrel and Branko’s Wolf,
Merchants of thought, swindlers of the masses,
A beggar clutching a doctor’s degree,
Old Debauchees wearing churchmen’s faces,
Syphilis-progress and cultural woes,
An advanced nation eating the weak,
Shallow prophets of United Kingdom benefits,
New vices on rotting pillars....“

(Mr. Matoš, Mora)

We have kids, and we need to prepare them to handle life on their own. What should we teach them?
To be corrupt to the core, or to be hardworking and honest?😕🤷☕

Maybe the answer is to teach them how to be honest, while making sure they have a deep enough understanding of how truly corrupt people can be.