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What is Jouissance?

Started by Jacob Newman77 · · 👁 9 views · 122 replies

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Participants Jacob Newman77Morgan Bishop4cosmicwolf27ironmarlin1mistyscout2placidwolf27Brandon Wright54Nicole Miller5Lisa Hernandez3fadedbear92gentleheron6wearyviper25
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#61 ·
mistyscout2 said:Yeah, like I was saying earlier, when you look at Lacan, the Real is basically this ontological register that just refuses to be captured by symbolism.

I feel like I probably need to remind you that Walter Benjamin was actually onto this back in 1936, when he penned his famous essay, *The Work of Art in the Age of Its Technological Reproducibility*. He spends quite a bit of time discussing how an artwork loses its "aura" once it can be reproduced like that.

You’re definitely on the right track with that distinction, though if you don't mind me jumping in to add a little nuance, I think there's an extra layer we should peel back here. The reason representation loses its "meaning" is because it stops being a direct re-presentation of something as it actually exists; instead, it becomes a representation of a representation. We can never truly get back to that original essence—assuming such a thing even existed to begin with—because we're just caught in this endless loop of representations representing other representations. At the same time, the Real (with a capital R) remains constant regardless of how we perceive it. The real issue is that our own personal fictions, along with the collective fictions of society acting as a mass unit (which essentially manifest the Imaginary through various ideologies and meta-narratives), start to feel incredibly real to us. People mistake these constructs for something "natural" or "just common sense," seemingly unaware that they aren't actually perceiving the world itself, but rather their own conceptualization of it. That's really where philosophy begins, and where simple "common sense" ends. 😉

I’ve read that text, but it slipped my mind—I really ought to brush up on it. I found his analysis of the prostitute as a mass-produced object quite interesting, though; it ties right into that Baudrillardian fascination.

I agree with part of the interpretation. Did I not say that the hyperreal has always been reproduced? Representation works by constantly telling us it's a substitute for something else. If there’s absolutely no difference between the original and the representation, then the purpose is lost, because the goal is to re-present the subject, not to simulate it. Simulation, as a third module, isn't imaginary, transcendental, or projective anymore—it's essentially an anticipation. It isn't fictional in any meaningful way because it doesn't differ from reality at all. And when I mention the real now, I definitely don't mean it in a Lacanian context. Representation relies on that gap between the sign and the actual, whereas in simulation, the sign represents the actual itself. So, it’s not just about a chain of representations—though that's the model for serial production—the real kicker is that the distance between the real and the imaginary vanishes. It gets erased. To me, that’s the crucial point: psychologically, it shows the blurring of the line between subject and object. It reveals that split.

Hmm, isn't the Real, according to Lacan, inherently traumatic? That which is "natural" or "understandable" falls under the domain of symbolization—stuff we accept as "given." The Real is that stretched territory, pulled taut between the imaginary and the symbolic; it's the only space where the imaginary can actually bleed into the symbolic.
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#62 ·
mistyscout2 said:Reading through Baudrillard, I can't help but feel like he’s circling back to good old Plato and his whole concept of the "world of ideas." It’s like we have that primary realm, then the "real world" which acts as just a shadow of those ideals, and then "art" itself becomes a mere shadow of the "real world"—essentially a shadow of a shadow.

It seems to me that after the fallout of the late sixties—which didn't quite hit the mark, at least not in the way the left-wing intellectuals of that era had envisioned—and his eventual break from Marxism, Baudrillard morphed into something of a modern Platonist. He’s got this heavy influence from (post)structuralism and Nietzsche, all seasoned with a healthy dose of McLuhan.

The whole idea of the "hyperreal" feels so much like McLuhan’s theory about the "sensory overload" that eventually leads us straight into a state of "narcosis." It really brings home the truth behind Narcissus is Narcosis.

Have you actually sat down with Vilém Flusser’s "digital look"? It's a great read—if you haven't, I think you'll dig it. He dives right into the notion of art functioning as a lie. The word "art" itself stems from the idea of being "artificial." In German, *Kunst* is tied to the root of "to know" or "to be able." So, among other things, the concept of art implies a certain level of fabrication. Look at how modern art is blurring the lines with science; they're practically becoming scientific disciplines now. People used to think technology and art were separate because technology was theoretical while art was empirical—but once photography entered the scene, that distinction between science and art pretty much evaporated. Just some food for thought regarding art.🙂
mistyscout2 mistyscout2 Active Member
197 messages
joined Feb 2007
#63 ·
Brandon Wright54 said:Honestly, I can't even remember anymore. Lesson learned for next time—after a few drinks, it’s definitely best to skip the "philosophy" sessions. 🙂


I think I finally caught onto which part of your post you were getting at once I gave it another read. You were probably talking about how the failure to translate the text has actually already happened—like, we already know ahead of time exactly how the translation is going to miss the mark (not that I said it wouldn't, just that the odds are basically zero), even before the translation process starts. 😁 It’s essentially a non-event, if you want to make it sound even more convoluted 😁. But hey, it doesn't matter. It's all good, just another day in paradise. 🙂
mistyscout2 mistyscout2 Active Member
197 messages
joined Feb 2007
#64 ·
Just a quick, friendly heads-up: in American English, when you use the phrase "in essence," it’s two separate words. The way you've been typing it looks more like "innate," which changes the whole vibe of your sentence 🙂. Since you tend to lean on that specific phrase quite a bit, I figured it might be helpful to point out—only if you actually want to use it, of course. I know English isn't your first language, so please just take this as a little constructive tip 🙂.

BTW, I haven't picked up that book yet, but thanks for the suggestion. I have to admit, though, I'm usually pretty skeptical of any sweeping generalizations when it comes to art. To me, there isn't just one single "art"; there are many different forms of art, each with its own massive history regarding how things are created and how people actually perceive them.
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#65 ·
To make this a complete joke, my native language is actually American—but I’ve been reading and writing in two languages that are so similar yet fundamentally different that everything just starts blurring together.

I was actually diving into a Freudian "introduction to philosophy" just last week, and it’s funny how those little mental glitches show up in your writing too. Shit 😁
mistyscout2 mistyscout2 Active Member
197 messages
joined Feb 2007
#66 ·
Are you trying to say "introduction to psychoanalysis"? 🙂
You just went and made another 😁.
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#67 ·
haha, just my luck 😁
mistyscout2 mistyscout2 Active Member
197 messages
joined Feb 2007
#68 ·
mistyscout2 said:Dictionary of Freudian Terms

There’s plenty of that to go around, kid...

@Jacob Newman77 - you really have to check this out; it’s got this top-tier breakdown of "jouissance" and walks through the different "types" exactly how Lacan built upon his own concepts over time. It’s such a clear, solid explanation for anyone just trying to get their head around the basics. Plus, there's a whole alphabetized list of other useful terms in there too—honestly, it's a fantastic resource.
Jacob Newman77 Jacob Newman77 MemberOP
31 messages
joined Jun 2010
#69 ·
Good grief, people, I just saw what you’ve all been posting here. Where do I even start? 🙂
mistyscout2: Great call on those links, those books look solid—definitely my reading list for August. A few more have arrived too 🙂 hopefully there will be plenty of new material for this topic 🙂

Brandon Wright54 said:Agreed on the topic. Simulation—as the third stage of the simulacra—is distinct because it doesn't bother copying reality. In the first two stages, the imaginary gets closer and closer to the real, but in the third, that distinction collapses. According to Baudrillard, the real and the imaginary implode into a sphere of hyperreality. For him, hyperreality is that which has always been reproduced... It’s a simulation that kills off any sense of reference. I find this theory crucial specifically when looking at female representation—how women are perceived today...

Regarding drugs, I think they're just stimulants. There are plenty of examples around us showing that we are perfectly capable of triggering those reactions ourselves—opening up dimensions that feel imaginarily taboo. Take a psychotic subject, for instance; a schizophrenic person might behave or feel exactly like someone on a trip. Severe psychosis is basically like a bad trip, except the person can't snap out of it just by stopping the drug. I remember an example from a character study book—some guy locked himself in a freezer all night and, predictably, froze to death; they found him the next morning. The catch was that the freezer wasn't even plugged in... His body essentially reacted to a fiction with full physical symptoms. Definitely interesting...

Sure, but how do you trigger that state without the help of those lovely little molecules?

Brandon Wright54 said:thanks for the booklet, we've got plenty to read now👍. I haven't gotten to Žižek's "on violence" 😢 yet, so it's hard to comment much—it's always tricky to pull things out of context with him. From what I know of his style, he's always throwing in these random examples to illustrate points that seem totally disconnected from the actual story. I can only weigh in on that whole possessiveness issue from my own perspective. It feels like it ties back to that symbiosis where you just can't peel yourself away from a partner—that connection is always rooted in the psychological. I think anyone is capable of sensing they're being cheated on; the real problem hits when it becomes public knowledge—when everyone else knows (even if the person subconsciously knew all along). To me, it seems like connecting that to the illusion of freedom we live in—where an open admission of infidelity shatters that illusion—is key. I think even Žižek wrote about how much we enjoy living within those prohibitions, all while clinging to that illusion of freedom...

Yeah, actually, I was reading something the other day suggesting humans might have had telepathic abilities once. If they did—not saying they did, just philosophizing here—they must have lost them because of all these intense fears and taboos. Just imagine what the world would think if everyone could suddenly read everyone else's minds? Total horror, right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.😁
I posted that Žižek book in English over on that other thread, go look for it... he pulled that specific sentence out of context; it stands alone and doesn't have much to do with the rest of the chapter. So let's just treat it that way, with free interpretations🙂 It resonates with me because I think it's pretty easy to see what lies beneath jealousy: insecurity, an inferiority complex, and, to use Lacanian terms, the desire for the desire of the Other..

As for the whole simulation thing and everything else, I’m going to sit back and digest your posts for a bit before I weigh in... though we could always spin off a new thread from this conversation over in the philosophy section. What do you think, mistyscout2?

@Brandon Wright54: I am eagerly awaiting your deep dive into the hysterical position, women, and all that other good stuff.🙂
mistyscout2 mistyscout2 Active Member
197 messages
joined Feb 2007
#70 ·
Jacob Newman77 said:Good grief, people, I just saw what you’ve all been posting here. Where do I even start? 🙂
mistyscout2: Great call on those links, those books look solid—definitely my reading list for August. A few more have arrived too 🙂 hopefully there will be plenty of new material for this topic 🙂

Sure, but how do you trigger that state without the help of those lovely little molecules?

Yeah, actually, I was reading something the other day suggesting humans might have had telepathic abilities once. If they did—not saying they did, just philosophizing here—they must have lost them because of all these intense fears and taboos. Just imagine what the world would think if everyone could suddenly read everyone else's minds? Total horror, right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.😁
I posted that Žižek book in English over on that other thread, go look for it... he pulled that specific sentence out of context; it stands alone and doesn't have much to do with the rest of the chapter. So let's just treat it that way, with free interpretations🙂 It resonates with me because I think it's pretty easy to see what lies beneath jealousy: insecurity, an inferiority complex, and, to use Lacanian terms, the desire for the desire of the Other..

As for the whole simulation thing and everything else, I’m going to sit back and digest your posts for a bit before I weigh in... though we could always spin off a new thread from this conversation over in the philosophy section. What do you think, mistyscout2?

@Brandon Wright54: I am eagerly awaiting your deep dive into the hysterical position, women, and all that other good stuff.🙂

Personally, I'm down for that, though I feel like it might be cleaner if we just started a dedicated thread there and kept this one focused on its current path. We could move things over, but you'd have to clear it with Whereabout first—since she's the moderator, she’s the one who decides which specific posts (by number) should be migrated to the philosophy board to kick off a simulation discussion. Still, I worry that if we move too much, we might lose the context or ruin the flow of how these ideas actually came up. It might be better to let our conversation here stay organic and authentic, and then we can open a separate, formal discussion on simulation over in the philosophy section. "Be my guest"—as an Englishman might say (it sounds absolutely ridiculous when translated literally, but it's pretty funny 🙂).

Right now, I've been dwelling on something for quite a while: the radical divide between analytic and continental philosophy, and whether it's actually possible to build a bridge between them (I think some people are trying, anyway). I'm also chewing on a critique of absolute naturalistic epistemology... I've been thinking about starting a blog, but then again...
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#71 ·
Jacob Newman77 said:Good grief, people, I just saw what you’ve all been posting here. Where do I even start? 🙂
mistyscout2: Great call on those links, those books look solid—definitely my reading list for August. A few more have arrived too 🙂 hopefully there will be plenty of new material for this topic 🙂

Sure, but how do you trigger that state without the help of those lovely little molecules?

Yeah, actually, I was reading something the other day suggesting humans might have had telepathic abilities once. If they did—not saying they did, just philosophizing here—they must have lost them because of all these intense fears and taboos. Just imagine what the world would think if everyone could suddenly read everyone else's minds? Total horror, right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.😁
I posted that Žižek book in English over on that other thread, go look for it... he pulled that specific sentence out of context; it stands alone and doesn't have much to do with the rest of the chapter. So let's just treat it that way, with free interpretations🙂 It resonates with me because I think it's pretty easy to see what lies beneath jealousy: insecurity, an inferiority complex, and, to use Lacanian terms, the desire for the desire of the Other..

As for the whole simulation thing and everything else, I’m going to sit back and digest your posts for a bit before I weigh in... though we could always spin off a new thread from this conversation over in the philosophy section. What do you think, mistyscout2?

@Brandon Wright54: I am eagerly awaiting your deep dive into the hysterical position, women, and all that other good stuff.🙂

I was actually talking to a psychoanalyst about this recently—he mentioned there’s this center in Italy where they put you into a weightless state. Apparently, once you lose all sense of space, you start seeing all sorts of visual hallucinations, kind of like being on a trip. Honestly, though, I’m not sure I’d ever treat myself to that. I’ve already experienced that feeling of having absolutely zero control, and it didn't leave me with particularly fond memories 😁.

Jacob Newman77 said:Good grief, people, I just saw what you’ve all been posting here. Where do I even start? 🙂
mistyscout2: Great call on those links, those books look solid—definitely my reading list for August. A few more have arrived too 🙂 hopefully there will be plenty of new material for this topic 🙂

Sure, but how do you trigger that state without the help of those lovely little molecules?

Yeah, actually, I was reading something the other day suggesting humans might have had telepathic abilities once. If they did—not saying they did, just philosophizing here—they must have lost them because of all these intense fears and taboos. Just imagine what the world would think if everyone could suddenly read everyone else's minds? Total horror, right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.😁
I posted that Žižek book in English over on that other thread, go look for it... he pulled that specific sentence out of context; it stands alone and doesn't have much to do with the rest of the chapter. So let's just treat it that way, with free interpretations🙂 It resonates with me because I think it's pretty easy to see what lies beneath jealousy: insecurity, an inferiority complex, and, to use Lacanian terms, the desire for the desire of the Other..

As for the whole simulation thing and everything else, I’m going to sit back and digest your posts for a bit before I weigh in... though we could always spin off a new thread from this conversation over in the philosophy section. What do you think, mistyscout2?

@Brandon Wright54: I am eagerly awaiting your deep dive into the hysterical position, women, and all that other good stuff.🙂

I think behind every instance of jealousy lies possessiveness and massive insecurity. Regarding the whole jealousy/love thing, I did some reading on the "formula of love" by Milivojević and found it quite gripping. He's a transactional therapist, and the field itself is fascinating—you might find it interesting too. The founder of Transactional Analysis is Eric Berne, and the method is relatively modern. Here’s a link
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#72 ·
Jacob Newman77 said:Good grief, people, I just saw what you’ve all been posting here. Where do I even start? 🙂
mistyscout2: Great call on those links, those books look solid—definitely my reading list for August. A few more have arrived too 🙂 hopefully there will be plenty of new material for this topic 🙂

Sure, but how do you trigger that state without the help of those lovely little molecules?

Yeah, actually, I was reading something the other day suggesting humans might have had telepathic abilities once. If they did—not saying they did, just philosophizing here—they must have lost them because of all these intense fears and taboos. Just imagine what the world would think if everyone could suddenly read everyone else's minds? Total horror, right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.😁
I posted that Žižek book in English over on that other thread, go look for it... he pulled that specific sentence out of context; it stands alone and doesn't have much to do with the rest of the chapter. So let's just treat it that way, with free interpretations🙂 It resonates with me because I think it's pretty easy to see what lies beneath jealousy: insecurity, an inferiority complex, and, to use Lacanian terms, the desire for the desire of the Other..

As for the whole simulation thing and everything else, I’m going to sit back and digest your posts for a bit before I weigh in... though we could always spin off a new thread from this conversation over in the philosophy section. What do you think, mistyscout2?

@Brandon Wright54: I am eagerly awaiting your deep dive into the hysterical position, women, and all that other good stuff.🙂

To be honest, I’m mostly interested in how that whole hysterical subject position—using it as a synonym for female behavior—plays out in the visual arts. I wasn't sure where to post this since the art subforum is pretty much a ghost town when it comes to this kind of topic, and let's face it, the visual content gets pretty explicit.
Jacob Newman77 Jacob Newman77 MemberOP
31 messages
joined Jun 2010
#73 ·
That state you mentioned? It’s called sensory deprivation. Honestly, I’m not even worried about losing control. Everything is perfectly under control—you're just floating. 🙂 What exactly is it that scares you about this? And thanks for the link—I'll definitely check it out. As for those subforums, you should probably reach out to mistyscout2; they can help you get sorted.

mistyscout2: Look, you could just copy-paste everything and throw it together into one big intro post about the simulation theory. Then we can actually pick up where we left off over there. 🙂
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#74 ·
Don't try to scare me with that beastly state of affairs—I've realized it’s really just a tool used to trigger all sorts of other conditions, and honestly, I have no desire to mess around with that too much. Have you actually gone through that yet?
Jacob Newman77 Jacob Newman77 MemberOP
31 messages
joined Jun 2010
#75 ·
Nah, but I’ll give it a shot when the opportunity first arises 🙂
Nicole Miller5 Nicole Miller5 Member
26 messages
joined Sep 2010
#76 ·
We can see the paradoxical nature of jouissance by looking at a marriage where an abusive husband beats his wife, who plays the role of the "victim."
If we toss aside the usual interpretation—the naive assumption that the "victim" simply lacks the capacity to break free from the "abuser"—we find that the true essence of this relationship lies in the transfer of pleasure from a legitimate (castrated) marriage into the dark, uncharted territory of "abuse."
The essential prerequisite for jouissance is a fundamental misrecognition. It’s telling how society almost always supports this misperception; people will inevitably ask the "victim," "Why don't you just leave him?" which only serves to validate their understanding of the dynamic.
This misrecognition on the part of the "victim" is actually the foundation that makes pleasure possible. As long as she maintains the act of being a victim, she sustains the illusion of the "abuser's" power. In reality, she is the one masking his impotence.
To put it bluntly, the "victim" isn't actually a victim, because it's the "abuser" who is truly trapped by the reality of her desire.
Lisa Hernandez3 Lisa Hernandez3 Active Member
211 messages
joined Aug 2010
#77 ·
Please let me know if you need any assistance regarding this new topic.
I could move this entire thread over to Philosophy, or perhaps just pull out the specific posts you want and start a fresh topic there instead.
@autoicon — since the discussion about other arts was already covering those specific concepts and more explicit content, it probably makes more sense to host it there.
fadedbear92 fadedbear92 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Dec 2008
#78 ·
just keep scrolling
Jacob Newman77 Jacob Newman77 MemberOP
31 messages
joined Jun 2010
#79 ·
Thanks so much 🙂
Brandon Wright54 Brandon Wright54 Active Member
69 messages
joined Jun 2010
#80 ·
Lisa Hernandez3 said:Please let me know if you need any assistance regarding this new topic.
I could move this entire thread over to Philosophy, or perhaps just pull out the specific posts you want and start a fresh topic there instead.
@autoicon — since the discussion about other arts was already covering those specific concepts and more explicit content, it probably makes more sense to host it there.

Thanks. I did a little digging already and didn't see anything quite like this. I'll keep looking.

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