The Unbearable Lightness of Being Too Nice

steelridge58 said:🙂

Yeah, I actually left that out yesterday because I thought I might get a chance to circle back later, but if we’re being honest—and at least it feels honest to me—I think honesty is probably the closest thing we have to respect. They feel almost inseparable, maybe even sharing the same roots deep down.

When you look at this through the lens of reading, learning, and actual knowledge, I think it does a great job of explaining that distinction I was trying to make between just following social etiquette—you know, just acting in a way that’s socially acceptable to fit in—and behaving based on deeply held values that stem from fundamental human principles, where what's right or wrong comes from the very core of who a person is, depending on the situation.

That said, I really do believe there are certain inherent predispositions we're born with... and I wonder if all humans enter this world with the same baseline character traits, especially when you consider how much our genetics shape us. To me, honesty seems inextricably linked to sincerity as a personality trait, and to conscience—that inner voice, that quiet realization within ourselves, knowing better than we often do...

My own impression is that honesty is strictly "of this world"—that is to say, it’s a quality triggered by the experience of living rather than something fully formed beforehand. Honesty, as a distinct trait, feels like a crystallization—a hardening or a homogenization—a type of character integration that emerges through a sequence of reactions to life's various experiences. It is, essentially, an activated internal predisposition.

In fact, honesty only distinguishes itself within the theater of life by detecting dishonesty as its opposing force—meaning, honesty doesn't arrive as some sort of naive innocence dropped into a harsh environment of corruption; rather, honesty and dishonesty are born into this world as siblings.

If you view the being prior to birth as a soul, then honesty (as a worldly attribute) serves as a specific "translation" of a much broader soulful sensation—which one might describe as love—just as dishonesty can be seen as the translation of a fundamental fear.

.. that sense of love .. and fear .. and strength .. which one carries more weight .. none of it defines who we are ahead of time .. I can't say exactly when or how .. but ultimately .. a person chooses.

Sam Green73 said:The other day, someone actually said to me, "You know, sometimes it’s just easier to be honest—it takes way less effort," and I have to admit, it totally threw me for a loop.
I get the logic behind it; telling the truth is definitely simpler because you don't have to spend half your life playing mental gymnastics trying to remember which lie you told to whom.
But is "honesty" really that straightforward?
Is it truly just a simple thing?
Honestly, I don't think so.
To me, being an honest person isn't some innate quality you're just born with; it's more like a skill that you actually have to work at.
Think about little kids—they’ll happily grab a toy from someone else, but they find it incredibly hard to actually share one of their own. Parents have to step in and teach them how to act in a socially acceptable way.

I'm a firm believer that being honest pays off in the long run, but when you look at the short term, is being truthful always the easiest path?

p.s. I almost wrote this whole thing as a post about sincerity, but I realized those aren't quite the same thing.

In this particular context... we really ought to... deconstruct these definitions... speaking... the truth... versus being... honorable.

... an honorable... man... doesn't necessarily... always... have to speak... the absolute truth... and one who speaks... the truth... isn't always... necessarily... honorable; I would... argue... that while being... honorable... might seem... easy..., actually... telling... the truth... can be quite... difficult.

Jonathan Brooks8 said:My own impression is that honesty is strictly "of this world"—that is to say, it’s a quality triggered by the experience of living rather than something fully formed beforehand. Honesty, as a distinct trait, feels like a crystallization—a hardening or a homogenization—a type of character integration that emerges through a sequence of reactions to life's various experiences. It is, essentially, an activated internal predisposition.

In fact, honesty only distinguishes itself within the theater of life by detecting dishonesty as its opposing force—meaning, honesty doesn't arrive as some sort of naive innocence dropped into a harsh environment of corruption; rather, honesty and dishonesty are born into this world as siblings.

If you view the being prior to birth as a soul, then honesty (as a worldly attribute) serves as a specific "translation" of a much broader soulful sensation—which one might describe as love—just as dishonesty can be seen as the translation of a fundamental fear.

I find myself agreeing with every single word you said, though it makes me wonder if we could apply that same logic to freedom... like, does freedom also emerge, distinguish itself, and pull away in the face of life's circumstances by detecting lack of freedom as its antithesis, or perhaps love versus its absence?

But while honesty acts as a kind of crystallization—this hardening or homogenization that forms a direct opposition to dishonesty—love is actually the opposite of that process because love works to break things down; it dilutes, softens, and dissolves... but not by opposing the hardness directly, but rather by absorbing it, taking it into itself, and melting it away until that rigidity simply vanishes.

So, if we look at honesty as a trait in relation to love (viewing love as this massive, all-encompassing force), structurally speaking, love isn't a quality that would support that kind of rigid honesty; quite the contrary, it tends to decrystallize it, much like it does with anything else that acquires those fixed properties.

Jonathan Brooks8 said:My own impression is that honesty is strictly "of this world"—that is to say, it’s a quality triggered by the experience of living rather than something fully formed beforehand. Honesty, as a distinct trait, feels like a crystallization—a hardening or a homogenization—a type of character integration that emerges through a sequence of reactions to life's various experiences. It is, essentially, an activated internal predisposition.

In fact, honesty only distinguishes itself within the theater of life by detecting dishonesty as its opposing force—meaning, honesty doesn't arrive as some sort of naive innocence dropped into a harsh environment of corruption; rather, honesty and dishonesty are born into this world as siblings.

If you view the being prior to birth as a soul, then honesty (as a worldly attribute) serves as a specific "translation" of a much broader soulful sensation—which one might describe as love—just as dishonesty can be seen as the translation of a fundamental fear.

Now, if what I wrote above holds true, then what was said here can't possibly be right.

I mean, if that "translation" of a soulful feeling is explained as love, or actually *is* love, shouldn't the translation be something else entirely?

steelridge58 said:I find myself agreeing with every single word you said, though it makes me wonder if we could apply that same logic to freedom... like, does freedom also emerge, distinguish itself, and pull away in the face of life's circumstances by detecting lack of freedom as its antithesis, or perhaps love versus its absence?

But while honesty acts as a kind of crystallization—this hardening or homogenization that forms a direct opposition to dishonesty—love is actually the opposite of that process because love works to break things down; it dilutes, softens, and dissolves... but not by opposing the hardness directly, but rather by absorbing it, taking it into itself, and melting it away until that rigidity simply vanishes.

So, if we look at honesty as a trait in relation to love (viewing love as this massive, all-encompassing force), structurally speaking, love isn't a quality that would support that kind of rigid honesty; quite the contrary, it tends to decrystallize it, much like it does with anything else that acquires those fixed properties.

Now, if what I wrote above holds true, then what was said here can't possibly be right.

I mean, if that "translation" of a soulful feeling is explained as love, or actually *is* love, shouldn't the translation be something else entirely?

I tend to view honesty as a translation, or perhaps an adaptation, of love—which I consider the more fundamental emotion. Think of it this way: love is such an ethereal "substance," a raw "medium," that it lacks the capacity—or perhaps the necessity—to manifest anything tangible on its own; it possesses only the qualities of openness and acceptance.

But once introduced to the friction of the real world, love acquires the specific properties required of a sculptor—and it is from that raw material of love that you carve out honesty.

So, when I speak of "hardening," what I mean is that honesty is essentially concentrated love—much like how the love shared between a man and a woman is a concentrated form of affection, love adapted to the complexities of their lives, translated into action.

redtinker36 said:.. either deal with our own lack of integrity and brace for the end of the world ..
.. because if .. being honest .. isn't rewarded .. then sticking to your principles just ends up screwing you and the rest of the world for nothing ..

Where are you getting this from? You can't possibly know the truth of these things... but there you have it.

Sam Green73 said:The other day, someone actually said to me, "You know, sometimes it’s just easier to be honest—it takes way less effort," and I have to admit, it totally threw me for a loop.
I get the logic behind it; telling the truth is definitely simpler because you don't have to spend half your life playing mental gymnastics trying to remember which lie you told to whom.
But is "honesty" really that straightforward?
Is it truly just a simple thing?
Honestly, I don't think so.
To me, being an honest person isn't some innate quality you're just born with; it's more like a skill that you actually have to work at.
Think about little kids—they’ll happily grab a toy from someone else, but they find it incredibly hard to actually share one of their own. Parents have to step in and teach them how to act in a socially acceptable way.

I'm a firm believer that being honest pays off in the long run, but when you look at the short term, is being truthful always the easiest path?

p.s. I almost wrote this whole thing as a post about sincerity, but I realized those aren't quite the same thing.

Honesty is a pleasure... if it isn't for you, why bother struggling through it for nothing?

Jonathan Brooks8 said:I tend to view honesty as a translation, or perhaps an adaptation, of love—which I consider the more fundamental emotion. Think of it this way: love is such an ethereal "substance," a raw "medium," that it lacks the capacity—or perhaps the necessity—to manifest anything tangible on its own; it possesses only the qualities of openness and acceptance.

But once introduced to the friction of the real world, love acquires the specific properties required of a sculptor—and it is from that raw material of love that you carve out honesty.

So, when I speak of "hardening," what I mean is that honesty is essentially concentrated love—much like how the love shared between a man and a woman is a concentrated form of affection, love adapted to the complexities of their lives, translated into action.

If we look at it that way, we could start talking about the "art" of loving, where being honest becomes just another expression or visible manifestation of that underlying craft. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a mere skill, though, because to me, those two things aren't quite the same; an art form, much like fine art itself, inherently requires love to exist and flows directly from it, whereas a simple skill doesn't necessarily need any heart behind it at all.

For anyone out there who has a soft spot for poetry... here is A User Manual

... according to Revelation... if there is a God, you really ought to strive to be one of those people in white robes... they belong to Him... while everyone else just gets crushed...

... and it’s entirely possible there isn't even a God... but honestly, the situation doesn't look much better... it's possible that being an honest person isn't even part of the plan...

... maybe you have plenty of beautiful examples of love... from your own life... which serve to effectively mask the examples of hatred... drawn from all sorts of different lives...
... perhaps you're playing the card that every Hitler was just an outlier... and that a few million people can occasionally... be sacrificed for the greater good...
... but... if there is no God... humanity hasn't found anything solid yet... anything that would actually guarantee... a better tomorrow...
... to me... for instance... it's worrying... just the fact that humans now kill more of their own kind than animals...

... no... I can't know for sure... that's why I say "if"... and... well, damn it... I'm just a philosopher...
... what do you think the future holds?

An honest man sleeps better, though perhaps on a slightly firmer mattress...

steelridge58 said:If we look at it that way, we could start talking about the "art" of loving, where being honest becomes just another expression or visible manifestation of that underlying craft. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a mere skill, though, because to me, those two things aren't quite the same; an art form, much like fine art itself, inherently requires love to exist and flows directly from it, whereas a simple skill doesn't necessarily need any heart behind it at all.

For anyone out there who has a soft spot for poetry... here is A User Manual

Lovely; she is simply surrendered—completely open to his whims—and there is a certain beauty in being at peace with that...

redtinker36 said:... according to Revelation... if there is a God, you really ought to strive to be one of those people in white robes... they belong to Him... while everyone else just gets crushed...

... and it’s entirely possible there isn't even a God... but honestly, the situation doesn't look much better... it's possible that being an honest person isn't even part of the plan...

... maybe you have plenty of beautiful examples of love... from your own life... which serve to effectively mask the examples of hatred... drawn from all sorts of different lives...
... perhaps you're playing the card that every Hitler was just an outlier... and that a few million people can occasionally... be sacrificed for the greater good...
... but... if there is no God... humanity hasn't found anything solid yet... anything that would actually guarantee... a better tomorrow...
... to me... for instance... it's worrying... just the fact that humans now kill more of their own kind than animals...

... no... I can't know for sure... that's why I say "if"... and... well, damn it... I'm just a philosopher...
... what do you think the future holds?

I suppose I am—though that’s really just a somewhat self-incriminating way of describing a gut feeling—that the answer lies in the matter of density.

redtinker36 said:... according to Revelation... if there is a God, you really ought to strive to be one of those people in white robes... they belong to Him... while everyone else just gets crushed...

... and it’s entirely possible there isn't even a God... but honestly, the situation doesn't look much better... it's possible that being an honest person isn't even part of the plan...

... maybe you have plenty of beautiful examples of love... from your own life... which serve to effectively mask the examples of hatred... drawn from all sorts of different lives...
... perhaps you're playing the card that every Hitler was just an outlier... and that a few million people can occasionally... be sacrificed for the greater good...
... but... if there is no God... humanity hasn't found anything solid yet... anything that would actually guarantee... a better tomorrow...
... to me... for instance... it's worrying... just the fact that humans now kill more of their own kind than animals...

... no... I can't know for sure... that's why I say "if"... and... well, damn it... I'm just a philosopher...
... what do you think the future holds?

If you think you can change something within yourself .. go put on a white dress .. you could even wear heels .. you'll be looking down from a height 😍
God exists .. that is a fact .. the question is whether He has you? .. if He does, where does He hold you most?

The amount of honesty is predestined .. the future is predestined .. but this moment .. it belongs to you .. it is real, truly, it is merely real .. that is if you care .. if not, why bother with someone else's moments? .. can you actually change something?

There was once a drop .. a tiny drop .. that wished it could abandon the stream .. can it do that? .. no .. we won't let it

Jonathan Brooks8 said:Lovely; she is simply surrendered—completely open to his whims—and there is a certain beauty in being at peace with that...

I mean, you could definitely look at it through that lens, but when we’re talking about the sculptor as a symbol for what he actually represents, I was really just offering a "snapshot of a sculpture" to illustrate a specific moment within that context... so, in my mind, she’s really speaking to her own vulnerability, which is why I phrased it as an instruction on how to handle her...

steelridge58 said:I mean, you could definitely look at it through that lens, but when we’re talking about the sculptor as a symbol for what he actually represents, I was really just offering a "snapshot of a sculpture" to illustrate a specific moment within that context... so, in my mind, she’s really speaking to her own vulnerability, which is why I phrased it as an instruction on how to handle her...

See, the thing is, I find her surrender so ethereal—so completely devoid of resistance—that he can’t actually impose his will upon her through carving; he can only reveal what she already is. For a sculpture to truly exist, the material needs to offer some pushback, to be malleable yet dense (though I suppose I’m twisting that to suit my own narrative—you know how it goes, like the Pentagon arguing over budget allocations...).

Jonathan Brooks8 said:See, the thing is, I find her surrender so ethereal—so completely devoid of resistance—that he can’t actually impose his will upon her through carving; he can only reveal what she already is. For a sculpture to truly exist, the material needs to offer some pushback, to be malleable yet dense (though I suppose I’m twisting that to suit my own narrative—you know how it goes, like the Pentagon arguing over budget allocations...).

For the time being, you might just want to stick to a simple "Yes, sir!"

😘

🙂

Terry Kim3 said:Honesty isn't just some social rule—it’s a psychological framework that manifests through actions that simply don't harm others. It stems from deep within a person's core. On the flip side, a lack of honesty is really just a byproduct of one's persona—that ego shaped by upbringing and societal pressure. If you were raised in an environment where cutting corners was the norm, or if you were born into a culture that rewards deceit, there's a high probability you'll end up being dishonest yourself; it becomes your version of "normal" because you haven't been taught any other way. Still, even then, there's usually that nagging voice of conscience—that internal compass—warning you that you're off track and that this state of being feels unnatural. Trying to correct that course is a massive, uphill battle. Conversely, if someone is raised with a genuine sense of integrity, their outward personality aligns with that inner core. Even if they slip up occasionally, that inner voice is quick to pull them back toward the right path.

That is an excellent explanation of what honesty truly entails.

Integrity is actually much easier to maintain for one simple reason—it is far more rewarding in both a material and non-material sense over the long haul...

-edit-
Regarding the examples involving Holocaust Memorial sites—let’s not confuse apples with oranges here. How could honesty possibly be linked to the raw, primal instinct for survival when life itself is on the line?

- Money or survival!
- But no—no, I won't give you the money; what you are asking of me right now is just not honest!