Grading Freshmen

I've been thinking about how grading actually works lately. I was reading a post by Flying buttres, and while everything seems to make sense at first glance, it starts to feel a bit fuzzy once you dig deeper.
Does the environment really dictate the grades?
For instance, if you're in an honors class where everyone is a grammar perfectionist, everyone might end up with an A. Meanwhile, in a different classroom, maybe everyone just gets Bs or Cs because the standard is lower.
On the flip side, if nobody in the class can master punctuation, would just getting the right answers be enough to earn an A?
It makes me wonder if grades are sometimes just pure luck—like, are you only doing well because you happened to end up in a class with struggling students, or vice versa?
Or is there a strict curriculum in place, where the requirements for an A on that second semester English midterm are set in stone regardless of the class average?
Is punctuation even factored into the grade?
If it isn't a formal requirement, then kids who put in the extra effort to get their punctuation perfect deserve some kind of recognition, even if they get the same A as someone who got the right answer but totally botched the punctuation.

rowdypanther12 said:I've been thinking about how grading actually works lately. I was reading a post by Flying buttres, and while everything seems to make sense at first glance, it starts to feel a bit fuzzy once you dig deeper.
Does the environment really dictate the grades?
For instance, if you're in an honors class where everyone is a grammar perfectionist, everyone might end up with an A. Meanwhile, in a different classroom, maybe everyone just gets Bs or Cs because the standard is lower.
On the flip side, if nobody in the class can master punctuation, would just getting the right answers be enough to earn an A?
It makes me wonder if grades are sometimes just pure luck—like, are you only doing well because you happened to end up in a class with struggling students, or vice versa?
Or is there a strict curriculum in place, where the requirements for an A on that second semester English midterm are set in stone regardless of the class average?
Is punctuation even factored into the grade?
If it isn't a formal requirement, then kids who put in the extra effort to get their punctuation perfect deserve some kind of recognition, even if they get the same A as someone who got the right answer but totally botched the punctuation.

Look, there is an official grading rubric that teachers and professors are legally required to hand out at the start of the school year. These criteria are almost always posted right on the school’s website, and they're readily available to any parent who cares to look. These rubrics explicitly define exactly what is required to earn a specific grade. Therefore, a grade shouldn't be subject to the "environment" or whatever classroom a student happens to be sitting in. It's standardized.

That’s exactly what I was thinking 😁 basically, if the kids already know more than what's required, you can't just raise the bar for those who only meet the minimum requirements.
In other words, it's either about the punctuation or whether the specific knowledge was actually requested; if he's a little kid, he should have gotten a 3, but if the question wasn't even asked, then she really messed up.

rowdypanther12 said:That’s exactly what I was thinking 😁 basically, if the kids already know more than what's required, you can't just raise the bar for those who only meet the minimum requirements.
In other words, it's either about the punctuation or whether the specific knowledge was actually requested; if he's a little kid, he should have gotten a 3, but if the question wasn't even asked, then she really messed up.

Regarding this whole punctuation mess... look, we teach kids that a sentence isn't complete unless it ends with a terminal mark—you know, a period, a question mark, or an exclamation point. You don't exactly drill comma usage in first grade. However, if, say, a student is asked to COPY a sentence verbatim from a textbook (and that sentence happens to have a comma), missing it or putting it in the wrong spot counts as an error because the transcription isn't accurate. Though, I'm not sure if they actually assign tasks like that to six-year-olds in the States.
If a child keeps answering with fragments or forgets their end marks, a teacher might lower the grade. It shows the kid hasn't quite mastered the fundamental structure of a sentence yet.
My take? It's a failure on the educator's part if they didn't clarify these grading criteria during a PTA meeting or sit the child down to explain exactly why they received that specific grade.

I firmly believe that any parent who dares to ask a teacher for a justification regarding a specific test score or oral exam grade—rather than just demanding a higher mark—will receive a clear, thorough explanation from the instructor.
Personally, whenever I check the online grading portal, I always make sure to review the actual exam my child completed so I can pinpoint exactly where they tripped up. This is incredibly vital for me, especially during these elementary school years, because I’m still not getting enough direct, meaningful feedback from him myself. By looking at his teacher's assessments, I can identify precisely what is causing his confusion and recognize his recurring patterns of error.

Regarding overall student progress, there is a dedicated section on the left side of the digital gradebook where teachers log specific observations about an individual student's development. These notes aren't just fluff; they directly influence the final year-end evaluation. This includes everything from submitted essays and homework assignments to their level of participation during class discussions.🙂

Could you provide an example of a sentence where expecting a child to place commas correctly would be considered an unreasonable expectation?

Linda Price5 said:Could you provide an example of a sentence where expecting a child to place commas correctly would be considered an unreasonable expectation?

They aren't even that difficult—honestly.🤣
Of course I can't.

I felt that same flash of frustration when my kid turned in an answer that was technically perfect, yet somehow "wrong" because it didn't follow the teacher's specific logic—I think it was back in first grade. It was a math problem, something like: "How many apples does Mary have?"
The kid answered: Four.
Mary has four apples.
So, some guy actually sat there and tried to explain the "purpose" of a child being able to write a full sentence—as if it were some grand philosophical debate. Honestly, I’m still not buying it.😁 I don't really comment on those kinds of things when it comes to him—not his kid, either—unless someone truly goes overboard. And even then, I’m still waiting for the right moment to weigh in.😁)

I have a little something to brag about.😁 I nearly died laughing the other day.😁
I stumbled upon a massive assignment while digging through my bag on Sunday night—something that had to happen, otherwise the whole thing would have just turned into a landfill.
Someone asked a question along the lines of: "America is a noun that doesn't have a plural form. Can you name any other nouns like that?"
"I don't know."

I'm dead.🤣
I spent about three days straight cracking up around the house—just pure, non-stop laughter—and honestly? I’m still feeling the high.😁

I didn't tell her to fix it—just let it be. I’m actually thinking about framing it.🤣

Justin Allen81 said:They aren't even that difficult—honestly.🤣
Of course I can't.

I felt that same flash of frustration when my kid turned in an answer that was technically perfect, yet somehow "wrong" because it didn't follow the teacher's specific logic—I think it was back in first grade. It was a math problem, something like: "How many apples does Mary have?"
The kid answered: Four.
Mary has four apples.
So, some guy actually sat there and tried to explain the "purpose" of a child being able to write a full sentence—as if it were some grand philosophical debate. Honestly, I’m still not buying it.😁 I don't really comment on those kinds of things when it comes to him—not his kid, either—unless someone truly goes overboard. And even then, I’m still waiting for the right moment to weigh in.😁)

I have a little something to brag about.😁 I nearly died laughing the other day.😁
I stumbled upon a massive assignment while digging through my bag on Sunday night—something that had to happen, otherwise the whole thing would have just turned into a landfill.
Someone asked a question along the lines of: "America is a noun that doesn't have a plural form. Can you name any other nouns like that?"
"I don't know."

I'm dead.🤣
I spent about three days straight cracking up around the house—just pure, non-stop laughter—and honestly? I’m still feeling the high.😁

I didn't tell her to fix it—just let it be. I’m actually thinking about framing it.🤣

🤣🤣

There are some absolute goldmines of data out there that it would be a crying shame not to archive. I’m talking about those pure, unadulterated gems of human stupidity. Take this one example from last year's worksheet: there was a picture of a siren sitting right there on a rock, and the question simply asked, "Where is the siren?" The kid's answer? "Here." Just... "here." It’s honestly mind-boggling. 😁 )

wanderinggardener12 said:The point isn't really about what the grades are or how fast someone is progressing, but rather whether grading is even necessary in the first place, and what message it sends to the parent—and more importantly, to the child. I wouldn't want this discussion to devolve into a guide on how to prep a future kindergartner or how first graders advance. That’s not the crux of the matter.

What I'm interested in is how you think a typical child, one developing normally, feels when they have the weight of constant grading hanging over their necks.

And how does the parent feel? What happens if the child is making wonderful progress, yet from standardized tests they're pulling Cs and Ds, while there are no other markers of advancement, like verbal feedback?

I have a first grader myself. She couldn't care less about grades.

However, the kid I’m talking about is already starting to feel like they aren't doing well in school... And both my friend and her husband are frustrated by all of this... because they worry about the self-esteem of a child who is perfectly fine and making great strides.

Look, the whole point of having grades in first grade should be to nudge kids toward learning, which shouldn't be an issue for anyone—kids or parents alike.
And hey, if we think our kid is doing "well enough," isn't that just our own subjective opinion? It probably doesn't have anything to do with reality and everything to do with—forgive my bluntness—our own insecurities... instead of dwelling on those, maybe we as parents should focus more on the actual kids, especially during this first year where the foundation for everything else is being laid down...

By the way, personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a kid who "can't do school"; I think there are just kids who haven't been taught certain concepts in a way that actually clicks for them... which, unfortunately, brings us back to the mistake many parents make, assuming someone else is solely responsible for all the heavy lifting while we just sit back.

As a parent of a first grader myself, my one major gripe with elementary school is just how long the days are. Twenty-three hours of school a week is way too much for kids this age; their attention span is basically tapped out after three or four hours tops.

So... maybe tell your friend that when her kid gets home, she should sit down and actually go through everything they did in class that day... once she does that, she might just realize exactly what I'm getting at. 😁

Lawrence Torres56 said:Look, the whole point of having grades in first grade should be to nudge kids toward learning, which shouldn't be an issue for anyone—kids or parents alike.
And hey, if we think our kid is doing "well enough," isn't that just our own subjective opinion? It probably doesn't have anything to do with reality and everything to do with—forgive my bluntness—our own insecurities... instead of dwelling on those, maybe we as parents should focus more on the actual kids, especially during this first year where the foundation for everything else is being laid down...

By the way, personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a kid who "can't do school"; I think there are just kids who haven't been taught certain concepts in a way that actually clicks for them... which, unfortunately, brings us back to the mistake many parents make, assuming someone else is solely responsible for all the heavy lifting while we just sit back.

As a parent of a first grader myself, my one major gripe with elementary school is just how long the days are. Twenty-three hours of school a week is way too much for kids this age; their attention span is basically tapped out after three or four hours tops.

So... maybe tell your friend that when her kid gets home, she should sit down and actually go through everything they did in class that day... once she does that, she might just realize exactly what I'm getting at. 😁

Wait, so you really believe it's the parent's job to step in and teach the curriculum to the child? 🤔

Justin Allen81 said:They aren't even that difficult—honestly.🤣
Of course I can't.

I felt that same flash of frustration when my kid turned in an answer that was technically perfect, yet somehow "wrong" because it didn't follow the teacher's specific logic—I think it was back in first grade. It was a math problem, something like: "How many apples does Mary have?"
The kid answered: Four.
Mary has four apples.
So, some guy actually sat there and tried to explain the "purpose" of a child being able to write a full sentence—as if it were some grand philosophical debate. Honestly, I’m still not buying it.😁 I don't really comment on those kinds of things when it comes to him—not his kid, either—unless someone truly goes overboard. And even then, I’m still waiting for the right moment to weigh in.😁)

I have a little something to brag about.😁 I nearly died laughing the other day.😁
I stumbled upon a massive assignment while digging through my bag on Sunday night—something that had to happen, otherwise the whole thing would have just turned into a landfill.
Someone asked a question along the lines of: "America is a noun that doesn't have a plural form. Can you name any other nouns like that?"
"I don't know."

I'm dead.🤣
I spent about three days straight cracking up around the house—just pure, non-stop laughter—and honestly? I’m still feeling the high.😁

I didn't tell her to fix it—just let it be. I’m actually thinking about framing it.🤣

😍

And honestly, that’s a perfectly valid answer to give.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Look, the whole point of having grades in first grade should be to nudge kids toward learning, which shouldn't be an issue for anyone—kids or parents alike.
And hey, if we think our kid is doing "well enough," isn't that just our own subjective opinion? It probably doesn't have anything to do with reality and everything to do with—forgive my bluntness—our own insecurities... instead of dwelling on those, maybe we as parents should focus more on the actual kids, especially during this first year where the foundation for everything else is being laid down...

By the way, personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a kid who "can't do school"; I think there are just kids who haven't been taught certain concepts in a way that actually clicks for them... which, unfortunately, brings us back to the mistake many parents make, assuming someone else is solely responsible for all the heavy lifting while we just sit back.

As a parent of a first grader myself, my one major gripe with elementary school is just how long the days are. Twenty-three hours of school a week is way too much for kids this age; their attention span is basically tapped out after three or four hours tops.

So... maybe tell your friend that when her kid gets home, she should sit down and actually go through everything they did in class that day... once she does that, she might just realize exactly what I'm getting at. 😁

Yeah, exactly. 😕

We aren't doing homeschooling, so thanks a lot for thinking someone else is gonna step in and do the heavy lifting. 🤷

Wait, hold on—are we actually doing this? Because if we are, I have a lot of thoughts, and honestly, most of them are probably going to be way too long for a simple thread, but who cares, right? I just can't help myself when things get this interesting. Is anyone else feeling that weirdly specific tension in the air lately, or is it just me being dramatic? It feels like everything is shifting all at once, like we’re all just waiting for the other shoe to drop while trying to act like everything is totally normal. Does anyone else feel like they're just spinning their wheels while everyone else seems to have some secret roadmap to where we're all supposed to be heading? I mean, seriously, how are people even keeping up with all this madness without losing their minds completely? It's absolute chaos, isn't it? kaže:
So, look, do you actually believe that parents should be the ones breaking everything down and basically hand-holding their kids through every single bit of information? Like, is it really on us to simplify the world until it fits into some tiny, digestible little package for them? 🤔

Richard Perez3 said:Yeah, exactly. 😕

We aren't doing homeschooling, so thanks a lot for thinking someone else is gonna step in and do the heavy lifting. 🤷

Look, if our kids aren't grasping the material that every other kid in their class seems to pick up without breaking a sweat, then we’re really facing a crossroads, aren't we? We either figure out how to translate that information into a language they actually speak—you know, making it accessible and digestible on their own terms—or we just sit back and let them struggle through it. At the end of the day, it’s entirely on us to decide which path we take.

I mean, look, I honestly feel like it’s on me as a parent to step up and help my kid out... even if that sounds a little heavy or weird to say out loud, you know?😉

Lawrence Torres56 said:Look, the whole point of having grades in first grade should be to nudge kids toward learning, which shouldn't be an issue for anyone—kids or parents alike.
And hey, if we think our kid is doing "well enough," isn't that just our own subjective opinion? It probably doesn't have anything to do with reality and everything to do with—forgive my bluntness—our own insecurities... instead of dwelling on those, maybe we as parents should focus more on the actual kids, especially during this first year where the foundation for everything else is being laid down...

By the way, personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a kid who "can't do school"; I think there are just kids who haven't been taught certain concepts in a way that actually clicks for them... which, unfortunately, brings us back to the mistake many parents make, assuming someone else is solely responsible for all the heavy lifting while we just sit back.

As a parent of a first grader myself, my one major gripe with elementary school is just how long the days are. Twenty-three hours of school a week is way too much for kids this age; their attention span is basically tapped out after three or four hours tops.

So... maybe tell your friend that when her kid gets home, she should sit down and actually go through everything they did in class that day... once she does that, she might just realize exactly what I'm getting at. 😁

I truly believe that children naturally love to learn, and they don't need a letter grade to make that happen.
In fact, sometimes those grades actually kill their drive.
Think about it: how do kids learn to walk? How do they learn to ride a bike? Or how do preschool kids pick up their letters without needing "feedback" in the form of a report card?

Lawrence Torres56 said:Look, the whole point of having grades in first grade should be to nudge kids toward learning, which shouldn't be an issue for anyone—kids or parents alike.
And hey, if we think our kid is doing "well enough," isn't that just our own subjective opinion? It probably doesn't have anything to do with reality and everything to do with—forgive my bluntness—our own insecurities... instead of dwelling on those, maybe we as parents should focus more on the actual kids, especially during this first year where the foundation for everything else is being laid down...

By the way, personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a kid who "can't do school"; I think there are just kids who haven't been taught certain concepts in a way that actually clicks for them... which, unfortunately, brings us back to the mistake many parents make, assuming someone else is solely responsible for all the heavy lifting while we just sit back.

As a parent of a first grader myself, my one major gripe with elementary school is just how long the days are. Twenty-three hours of school a week is way too much for kids this age; their attention span is basically tapped out after three or four hours tops.

So... maybe tell your friend that when her kid gets home, she should sit down and actually go through everything they did in class that day... once she does that, she might just realize exactly what I'm getting at. 😁

I can agree with the bolded part, but I don't quite see where the parent's fault lies. Did they pick a teacher who wasn't experienced enough? Did they enroll their child in a class where the other kids are too restless for them to focus?
What's the excuse for saying the material wasn't explained well enough?

Lawrence Torres56 said:Look, the whole point of having grades in first grade should be to nudge kids toward learning, which shouldn't be an issue for anyone—kids or parents alike.
And hey, if we think our kid is doing "well enough," isn't that just our own subjective opinion? It probably doesn't have anything to do with reality and everything to do with—forgive my bluntness—our own insecurities... instead of dwelling on those, maybe we as parents should focus more on the actual kids, especially during this first year where the foundation for everything else is being laid down...

By the way, personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a kid who "can't do school"; I think there are just kids who haven't been taught certain concepts in a way that actually clicks for them... which, unfortunately, brings us back to the mistake many parents make, assuming someone else is solely responsible for all the heavy lifting while we just sit back.

As a parent of a first grader myself, my one major gripe with elementary school is just how long the days are. Twenty-three hours of school a week is way too much for kids this age; their attention span is basically tapped out after three or four hours tops.

So... maybe tell your friend that when her kid gets home, she should sit down and actually go through everything they did in class that day... once she does that, she might just realize exactly what I'm getting at. 😁

That part of your post feels a little contradictory to me.
On one hand, you say kids are overwhelmed by too many school hours, but then you suggest that after a long, exhausting school day, parents should pile even more work onto them by reviewing the exact same material at home. 😕

By the way, I've mentioned this before on another thread... grades in the early years of elementary school are completely unnecessary.

I mean, seriously? Is this really what we're doing now? Just dropping random words like that without any context or a shred of actual conversation? It’s like walking into a crowded diner in Chicago, sitting down at the counter, and just grunting at the cook instead of ordering a damn breakfast sandwich. Are we just testing to see if the lights are on, or is there some kind of deep, philosophical subtext here that I'm somehow too dim-witted to grasp? If you've got something to say, just say it, right? Don't leave us all hanging in this weirdly silent void. kaže:
I’m telling you right now, and I mean this with absolute conviction: kids actually love to learn. Like, they genuinely crave it. They don't need some arbitrary letter grade or a GPA hovering over their heads just to spark that curiosity, you know? Why do we act like a report card is the only thing that makes knowledge stick?
Honestly, it’s more than just a minor setback—half the time, they just completely strip away anyone's will to keep going.
How does a kid even learn to walk? Like, how do they figure out how to balance and move without falling on their face every five seconds? And how do they eventually master riding a bike? It’s all instinct, right? Then you look at these little kids in preschool and they’re already being taught letters and sounds, but there aren't any grades or report cards to serve as "feedback" to tell them if they're actually getting it or just spinning their wheels. How does that whole learning loop even work without a formal score?

Look, let’s be real for a second—kids just want to dive headfirst into whatever actually sparks their curiosity, right? And since we all know they aren't some cookie-cutter group where everyone is wired the same way, it’s pretty obvious that what captures one kid's imagination is going to be total boredom for the next. But hey, the school curriculum is what it is, isn't it? It’s set in stone. At the end of the day, those grades are basically just there to act as a carrot on a stick to keep them motivated and, honestly, just to keep things from descending into absolute chaos in the classroom.

I mean, I totally get where boldani is coming from on this one, but I’m honestly struggling to see where the parents actually dropped the ball here. Like, what exactly was their mistake? Did they just fail to pick a teacher with enough experience to handle a classroom? Or maybe they dropped their kid off in a class where everyone else is basically bouncing off the walls, making it impossible for any student to actually focus on the lesson? I don't know, it just feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle.
What's actually a valid excuse when you feel like the material just isn't being explained well enough for a kid to actually wrap their head around it? Like, how do you even frame that without sounding like you're just making excuses for them falling behind?

Why are you always shifting the blame onto everyone else? Seriously, is it really that hard to just accept that kids aren't some carbon copy of one another? Maybe our kid isn't some budding little Einstein right now, or maybe they just haven't hit that specific developmental milestone yet, or whatever... the point is, they need us to step up. I mean, at the end of the day, who knows our own child better than we do? Take my little one, for example. During the first half of the school year, she was constantly tripping up during spelling tests, always leaving one or two mistakes here and there, especially when the words got a bit longer. Eventually, I realized she was really struggling with syllable division—she just couldn't wrap her head around how to break a word down. So, what did I do? I told her to try singing the words out loud like a song. And wouldn't you know it? Just like that, the struggle with spelling vanished. Sure, I could have just sat back and let her keep struggling until she ended up hating school, or I could have sat around waiting for her teacher to fix it, or I could have just taken matters into my own hands like I did. It was a choice, plain and simple. And since I’m operating under the assumption that we all actually care about our kids being happy and confident, I don't see why anyone would find it difficult to just help them get there.

Wait, isn't this part of your post a little bit contradictory?
So, on one hand, you’re out here preaching about how kids are totally burnt out because their school schedules are absolutely suffocating them, right? But then, in the very next breath, you’re actually suggesting that a parent should just double down and pile even more of the exact same workload on top of them once they finally get home? Like, seriously, how does that even make sense? You can't claim the system is crushing them under the weight of too many hours and then turn around and advocate for adding even more pressure to an already exhausted kid at the dinner table. It’s kind of a wild contradiction, don't you think? 😕

Look, I’m not even trying to make some grand claim here, I’m just saying—this is my one personal gripe with the whole thing. It’s not about whether they're being taught too much or if the workload is getting out of hand, seriously, that's not it at all. It comes down to one thing and one thing only: their actual ability to sit still and focus.
Look, I’m telling you, bringing the curriculum closer to where they actually live isn't some massive extra burden on teachers—it’s just common sense. It’s not about piling more work onto their plates; it’s strictly and exclusively about taking the stuff they’re already struggling to grasp and explaining it in a way that actually clicks for them, you know? If we can present the material through a lens that’s actually engaging and relatable to an American kid, why wouldn't we? Is it really "extra" if it just makes the lesson finally make sense?

Honestly, I feel like I’ve already ranted about this on another thread, but here we go again because it’s just so obvious: giving grades to kids in elementary school is completely pointless. Like, seriously, what is the actual goal there? It feels totally unnecessary.

Let’s be real for a second—if we ditched grades entirely, none of these kids, especially the ones in second, third, or fourth grade, would ever even touch a book, let alone actually learn something. I mean, come on, let's get serious here... what would even be the point of going to school at all? You really think they’re sitting there finding multiplication tables fascinating while it's snowing outside and they could just be home dreaming away?😁
Maybe we should just push back those 9:00 or 10:00 AM start times for freshmen instead? Honestly, that might actually make way more sense than just getting rid of grades altogether...😉

wanderingbadger44 said:Not this again. Just a few months back, you opened a similar thread with an almost identical opening, also focusing on a "first grader"—except back then, it was a high schooler belonging to a friend.

Are you just a troll, or is there a real person behind this who is working incredibly hard to undermine anyone offering actual guidance, all just to make sure you come out looking flawless and right in the eyes of those "enlightened" types?

The post regarding high schoolers dealt with my stepdaughter. The core issue remains unchanged. It’s essentially the same situation we see today: a girl who works, yet struggles with subjects where she isn't given a fair shot to demonstrate her knowledge or correct a poor grade because the workload is simply overwhelming. She's working, but she isn't seeing the results she deserves... along with all the other nuances I've touched upon (and things I haven't even mentioned yet).
I see the same pattern with my friend's child, who is just starting elementary school.
It seems to me that so many aspects of the grading system are poorly regulated, and children end up paying the price for it in both Elementary School and High School.
I have two daughters navigating this system: one is nearing the end of her degree, currently in her 10th semester at an Ivy League university, and I walked her through every single stage of that process; the other is a freshman in elementary school. I work in an elementary school myself, and for fifteen years, alongside my primary profession, I worked in extracurricular programs with kids ranging from first grade through the end of high school. I believe I have a legitimate grasp on the problems at hand.
I don't see why pointing out systemic flaws counts as undermining teachers or the system itself. Those who do their jobs well have no reason to feel frustrated; some will inevitably succeed, and others will make mistakes. But those who can sleep soundly at night knowing they may have permanently crushed a child's self-esteem over the course of three or four years? I see no reason to pull my punches with them.
My criticism isn't aimed at individuals, but at the system that permits this behavior and, in many cases, mandates it.
I am certainly not claiming to be perfect—I work as an English teacher in an elementary school, after all—but I have absolutely no desire to perform "perfection" here (if that were my goal, I would have much better venues for it). I am undoubtedly not a perfect teacher. However, that isn't the point at all: I am talking about how my stepdaughter, my friend's child, and countless other students suffer because of a fundamentally broken educational and developmental system.

Our American education system is riddled with flaws. What am I supposed to do if I am part of that very system? Should I just stay silent simply because I work within it? Am I expected to claim everything is wonderful? My protesting and my dissatisfaction with certain practices don't mean that I am performing my job flawlessly. On the contrary, I suspect that being "on the inside" allows me to see certain realities more clearly than those who lack my level of insight and information.

Yes, I'll say it again: I am critiquing the system, not the people. I fail to see what is wrong with that. Why does it bother you so much?

Richard Perez3 said:Yeah, exactly. 😕

We aren't doing homeschooling, so thanks a lot for thinking someone else is gonna step in and do the heavy lifting. 🤷

Of course they should be teaching. That’s what teachers are there for.
Then again, you have to wonder if schools even exist just so "someone" can have a job and keep the buildings heated, rather than actually educating kids.

Back when I was in High School, the whole big deal was always that parents "weren't doing enough with their kids." Let me ask you this: what is the actual point of school if children spend 5 or 6 hours a day there, only to come home and still have to study, while parents are expected to sit there and help them through it?

[QUOTE
If you take away grades, none of them—especially those kids in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th grade—would even pick up a book, let alone actually learn anything. Let's be real here. What’s the point of school then? You can't honestly expect them to care about a multiplication table when it's snowing outside and they'd much rather be dreaming about something else.😁
Maybe starting 1st graders at 9 or 10 AM would make more sense, but scrapping grades entirely? Not so much.😉

Forgive me for jumping into this, but I have to say, this argument is nonsense. I don't know how old the rest of you parents are, but I was born in '79, and I didn't have numerical grades during my first four years of Elementary School (does anyone else even remember that?). We just had descriptive progress reports instead—I actually still have those folders tucked away from those early years. Sure, we had tests and assessments, but there were no letter grades. And obviously, we still learned. Back then, I went to after-school programs for those first four years, and I distinctly remember never having to study at home; everything was handled at school. Once I hit 5th grade, my grades were excellent. I had developed good study habits, and my parents didn't have to sit me or my brother down to tutor us.
So, in my opinion, the idea that kids won't learn without grades is Absolute nonsense.

Of course, we didn't have any grades for the first four years of elementary school, and everything worked out just fine. In fact, there are several other countries where they don't use grades even longer than that.

Lawrence Torres56 said:

I mean, seriously? Is this really what we're doing now? Just dropping random words like that without any context or a shred of actual conversation? It’s like walking into a crowded diner in Chicago, sitting down at the counter, and just grunting at the cook instead of ordering a damn breakfast sandwich. Are we just testing to see if the lights are on, or is there some kind of deep, philosophical subtext here that I'm somehow too dim-witted to grasp? If you've got something to say, just say it, right? Don't leave us all hanging in this weirdly silent void. kaže:
I’m telling you right now, and I mean this with absolute conviction: kids actually love to learn. Like, they genuinely crave it. They don't need some arbitrary letter grade or a GPA hovering over their heads just to spark that curiosity, you know? Why do we act like a report card is the only thing that makes knowledge stick?
Honestly, it’s more than just a minor setback—half the time, they just completely strip away anyone's will to keep going.
How does a kid even learn to walk? Like, how do they figure out how to balance and move without falling on their face every five seconds? And how do they eventually master riding a bike? It’s all instinct, right? Then you look at these little kids in preschool and they’re already being taught letters and sounds, but there aren't any grades or report cards to serve as "feedback" to tell them if they're actually getting it or just spinning their wheels. How does that whole learning loop even work without a formal score?

Look, let’s be real for a second—kids just want to dive headfirst into whatever actually sparks their curiosity, right? And since we all know they aren't some cookie-cutter group where everyone is wired the same way, it’s pretty obvious that what captures one kid's imagination is going to be total boredom for the next. But hey, the school curriculum is what it is, isn't it? It’s set in stone. At the end of the day, those grades are basically just there to act as a carrot on a stick to keep them motivated and, honestly, just to keep things from descending into absolute chaos in the classroom.

I mean, I totally get where boldani is coming from on this one, but I’m honestly struggling to see where the parents actually dropped the ball here. Like, what exactly was their mistake? Did they just fail to pick a teacher with enough experience to handle a classroom? Or maybe they dropped their kid off in a class where everyone else is basically bouncing off the walls, making it impossible for any student to actually focus on the lesson? I don't know, it just feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle.
What's actually a valid excuse when you feel like the material just isn't being explained well enough for a kid to actually wrap their head around it? Like, how do you even frame that without sounding like you're just making excuses for them falling behind?

Why are you always shifting the blame onto everyone else? Seriously, is it really that hard to just accept that kids aren't some carbon copy of one another? Maybe our kid isn't some budding little Einstein right now, or maybe they just haven't hit that specific developmental milestone yet, or whatever... the point is, they need us to step up. I mean, at the end of the day, who knows our own child better than we do? Take my little one, for example. During the first half of the school year, she was constantly tripping up during spelling tests, always leaving one or two mistakes here and there, especially when the words got a bit longer. Eventually, I realized she was really struggling with syllable division—she just couldn't wrap her head around how to break a word down. So, what did I do? I told her to try singing the words out loud like a song. And wouldn't you know it? Just like that, the struggle with spelling vanished. Sure, I could have just sat back and let her keep struggling until she ended up hating school, or I could have sat around waiting for her teacher to fix it, or I could have just taken matters into my own hands like I did. It was a choice, plain and simple. And since I’m operating under the assumption that we all actually care about our kids being happy and confident, I don't see why anyone would find it difficult to just help them get there.

Wait, isn't this part of your post a little bit contradictory?
So, on one hand, you’re out here preaching about how kids are totally burnt out because their school schedules are absolutely suffocating them, right? But then, in the very next breath, you’re actually suggesting that a parent should just double down and pile even more of the exact same workload on top of them once they finally get home? Like, seriously, how does that even make sense? You can't claim the system is crushing them under the weight of too many hours and then turn around and advocate for adding even more pressure to an already exhausted kid at the dinner table. It’s kind of a wild contradiction, don't you think? 😕

Look, I’m not even trying to make some grand claim here, I’m just saying—this is my one personal gripe with the whole thing. It’s not about whether they're being taught too much or if the workload is getting out of hand, seriously, that's not it at all. It comes down to one thing and one thing only: their actual ability to sit still and focus.
Look, I’m telling you, bringing the curriculum closer to where they actually live isn't some massive extra burden on teachers—it’s just common sense. It’s not about piling more work onto their plates; it’s strictly and exclusively about taking the stuff they’re already struggling to grasp and explaining it in a way that actually clicks for them, you know? If we can present the material through a lens that’s actually engaging and relatable to an American kid, why wouldn't we? Is it really "extra" if it just makes the lesson finally make sense?

Honestly, I feel like I’ve already ranted about this on another thread, but here we go again because it’s just so obvious: giving grades to kids in elementary school is completely pointless. Like, seriously, what is the actual goal there? It feels totally unnecessary.

Let’s be real for a second—if we ditched grades entirely, none of these kids, especially the ones in second, third, or fourth grade, would ever even touch a book, let alone actually learn something. I mean, come on, let's get serious here... what would even be the point of going to school at all? You really think they’re sitting there finding multiplication tables fascinating while it's snowing outside and they could just be home dreaming away?😁
Maybe we should just push back those 9:00 or 10:00 AM start times for freshmen instead? Honestly, that might actually make way more sense than just getting rid of grades altogether...😉

🤣

It honestly scares me if we believe that we should start a child's education by instilling a fear of school and keeping them under strict control.

The elementary school curriculum covers fundamental skills that everyone needs—stuff you use every single day. So, if we have to rely on grading and discipline just to keep them focused on basics, I don't know how we're ever supposed to motivate them to tackle complex stuff like vectors, imaginary numbers, or Latin and Greek.😕

Lawrence Torres56 said:

I mean, seriously? Is this really what we're doing now? Just dropping random words like that without any context or a shred of actual conversation? It’s like walking into a crowded diner in Chicago, sitting down at the counter, and just grunting at the cook instead of ordering a damn breakfast sandwich. Are we just testing to see if the lights are on, or is there some kind of deep, philosophical subtext here that I'm somehow too dim-witted to grasp? If you've got something to say, just say it, right? Don't leave us all hanging in this weirdly silent void. kaže:
I’m telling you right now, and I mean this with absolute conviction: kids actually love to learn. Like, they genuinely crave it. They don't need some arbitrary letter grade or a GPA hovering over their heads just to spark that curiosity, you know? Why do we act like a report card is the only thing that makes knowledge stick?
Honestly, it’s more than just a minor setback—half the time, they just completely strip away anyone's will to keep going.
How does a kid even learn to walk? Like, how do they figure out how to balance and move without falling on their face every five seconds? And how do they eventually master riding a bike? It’s all instinct, right? Then you look at these little kids in preschool and they’re already being taught letters and sounds, but there aren't any grades or report cards to serve as "feedback" to tell them if they're actually getting it or just spinning their wheels. How does that whole learning loop even work without a formal score?

Look, let’s be real for a second—kids just want to dive headfirst into whatever actually sparks their curiosity, right? And since we all know they aren't some cookie-cutter group where everyone is wired the same way, it’s pretty obvious that what captures one kid's imagination is going to be total boredom for the next. But hey, the school curriculum is what it is, isn't it? It’s set in stone. At the end of the day, those grades are basically just there to act as a carrot on a stick to keep them motivated and, honestly, just to keep things from descending into absolute chaos in the classroom.

I mean, I totally get where boldani is coming from on this one, but I’m honestly struggling to see where the parents actually dropped the ball here. Like, what exactly was their mistake? Did they just fail to pick a teacher with enough experience to handle a classroom? Or maybe they dropped their kid off in a class where everyone else is basically bouncing off the walls, making it impossible for any student to actually focus on the lesson? I don't know, it just feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle.
What's actually a valid excuse when you feel like the material just isn't being explained well enough for a kid to actually wrap their head around it? Like, how do you even frame that without sounding like you're just making excuses for them falling behind?

Why are you always shifting the blame onto everyone else? Seriously, is it really that hard to just accept that kids aren't some carbon copy of one another? Maybe our kid isn't some budding little Einstein right now, or maybe they just haven't hit that specific developmental milestone yet, or whatever... the point is, they need us to step up. I mean, at the end of the day, who knows our own child better than we do? Take my little one, for example. During the first half of the school year, she was constantly tripping up during spelling tests, always leaving one or two mistakes here and there, especially when the words got a bit longer. Eventually, I realized she was really struggling with syllable division—she just couldn't wrap her head around how to break a word down. So, what did I do? I told her to try singing the words out loud like a song. And wouldn't you know it? Just like that, the struggle with spelling vanished. Sure, I could have just sat back and let her keep struggling until she ended up hating school, or I could have sat around waiting for her teacher to fix it, or I could have just taken matters into my own hands like I did. It was a choice, plain and simple. And since I’m operating under the assumption that we all actually care about our kids being happy and confident, I don't see why anyone would find it difficult to just help them get there.

Wait, isn't this part of your post a little bit contradictory?
So, on one hand, you’re out here preaching about how kids are totally burnt out because their school schedules are absolutely suffocating them, right? But then, in the very next breath, you’re actually suggesting that a parent should just double down and pile even more of the exact same workload on top of them once they finally get home? Like, seriously, how does that even make sense? You can't claim the system is crushing them under the weight of too many hours and then turn around and advocate for adding even more pressure to an already exhausted kid at the dinner table. It’s kind of a wild contradiction, don't you think? 😕

Look, I’m not even trying to make some grand claim here, I’m just saying—this is my one personal gripe with the whole thing. It’s not about whether they're being taught too much or if the workload is getting out of hand, seriously, that's not it at all. It comes down to one thing and one thing only: their actual ability to sit still and focus.
Look, I’m telling you, bringing the curriculum closer to where they actually live isn't some massive extra burden on teachers—it’s just common sense. It’s not about piling more work onto their plates; it’s strictly and exclusively about taking the stuff they’re already struggling to grasp and explaining it in a way that actually clicks for them, you know? If we can present the material through a lens that’s actually engaging and relatable to an American kid, why wouldn't we? Is it really "extra" if it just makes the lesson finally make sense?

Honestly, I feel like I’ve already ranted about this on another thread, but here we go again because it’s just so obvious: giving grades to kids in elementary school is completely pointless. Like, seriously, what is the actual goal there? It feels totally unnecessary.

Let’s be real for a second—if we ditched grades entirely, none of these kids, especially the ones in second, third, or fourth grade, would ever even touch a book, let alone actually learn something. I mean, come on, let's get serious here... what would even be the point of going to school at all? You really think they’re sitting there finding multiplication tables fascinating while it's snowing outside and they could just be home dreaming away?😁
Maybe we should just push back those 9:00 or 10:00 AM start times for freshmen instead? Honestly, that might actually make way more sense than just getting rid of grades altogether...😉

Also, you mentioned that for some kids, the material isn't explained clearly enough (whatever that means), but in my world, the material is being taught by actual, paid professionals. I'm not quite following where the parental responsibility lies if I'm expecting teachers to actually present the lessons effectively in class.😕

What you did for your child was wonderful, but not every parent has the background to intuitively know exactly what a child should know or the best way for them to learn. I find it a bit unfair to pin all the responsibility on parents, especially in those early elementary years when it feels like everything should be mastered right there in the classroom. Otherwise, what's the point of school?

Lawrence Torres56 said:

I mean, seriously? Is this really what we're doing now? Just dropping random words like that without any context or a shred of actual conversation? It’s like walking into a crowded diner in Chicago, sitting down at the counter, and just grunting at the cook instead of ordering a damn breakfast sandwich. Are we just testing to see if the lights are on, or is there some kind of deep, philosophical subtext here that I'm somehow too dim-witted to grasp? If you've got something to say, just say it, right? Don't leave us all hanging in this weirdly silent void. kaže:
I’m telling you right now, and I mean this with absolute conviction: kids actually love to learn. Like, they genuinely crave it. They don't need some arbitrary letter grade or a GPA hovering over their heads just to spark that curiosity, you know? Why do we act like a report card is the only thing that makes knowledge stick?
Honestly, it’s more than just a minor setback—half the time, they just completely strip away anyone's will to keep going.
How does a kid even learn to walk? Like, how do they figure out how to balance and move without falling on their face every five seconds? And how do they eventually master riding a bike? It’s all instinct, right? Then you look at these little kids in preschool and they’re already being taught letters and sounds, but there aren't any grades or report cards to serve as "feedback" to tell them if they're actually getting it or just spinning their wheels. How does that whole learning loop even work without a formal score?

Look, let’s be real for a second—kids just want to dive headfirst into whatever actually sparks their curiosity, right? And since we all know they aren't some cookie-cutter group where everyone is wired the same way, it’s pretty obvious that what captures one kid's imagination is going to be total boredom for the next. But hey, the school curriculum is what it is, isn't it? It’s set in stone. At the end of the day, those grades are basically just there to act as a carrot on a stick to keep them motivated and, honestly, just to keep things from descending into absolute chaos in the classroom.

I mean, I totally get where boldani is coming from on this one, but I’m honestly struggling to see where the parents actually dropped the ball here. Like, what exactly was their mistake? Did they just fail to pick a teacher with enough experience to handle a classroom? Or maybe they dropped their kid off in a class where everyone else is basically bouncing off the walls, making it impossible for any student to actually focus on the lesson? I don't know, it just feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle.
What's actually a valid excuse when you feel like the material just isn't being explained well enough for a kid to actually wrap their head around it? Like, how do you even frame that without sounding like you're just making excuses for them falling behind?

Why are you always shifting the blame onto everyone else? Seriously, is it really that hard to just accept that kids aren't some carbon copy of one another? Maybe our kid isn't some budding little Einstein right now, or maybe they just haven't hit that specific developmental milestone yet, or whatever... the point is, they need us to step up. I mean, at the end of the day, who knows our own child better than we do? Take my little one, for example. During the first half of the school year, she was constantly tripping up during spelling tests, always leaving one or two mistakes here and there, especially when the words got a bit longer. Eventually, I realized she was really struggling with syllable division—she just couldn't wrap her head around how to break a word down. So, what did I do? I told her to try singing the words out loud like a song. And wouldn't you know it? Just like that, the struggle with spelling vanished. Sure, I could have just sat back and let her keep struggling until she ended up hating school, or I could have sat around waiting for her teacher to fix it, or I could have just taken matters into my own hands like I did. It was a choice, plain and simple. And since I’m operating under the assumption that we all actually care about our kids being happy and confident, I don't see why anyone would find it difficult to just help them get there.

Wait, isn't this part of your post a little bit contradictory?
So, on one hand, you’re out here preaching about how kids are totally burnt out because their school schedules are absolutely suffocating them, right? But then, in the very next breath, you’re actually suggesting that a parent should just double down and pile even more of the exact same workload on top of them once they finally get home? Like, seriously, how does that even make sense? You can't claim the system is crushing them under the weight of too many hours and then turn around and advocate for adding even more pressure to an already exhausted kid at the dinner table. It’s kind of a wild contradiction, don't you think? 😕

Look, I’m not even trying to make some grand claim here, I’m just saying—this is my one personal gripe with the whole thing. It’s not about whether they're being taught too much or if the workload is getting out of hand, seriously, that's not it at all. It comes down to one thing and one thing only: their actual ability to sit still and focus.
Look, I’m telling you, bringing the curriculum closer to where they actually live isn't some massive extra burden on teachers—it’s just common sense. It’s not about piling more work onto their plates; it’s strictly and exclusively about taking the stuff they’re already struggling to grasp and explaining it in a way that actually clicks for them, you know? If we can present the material through a lens that’s actually engaging and relatable to an American kid, why wouldn't we? Is it really "extra" if it just makes the lesson finally make sense?

Honestly, I feel like I’ve already ranted about this on another thread, but here we go again because it’s just so obvious: giving grades to kids in elementary school is completely pointless. Like, seriously, what is the actual goal there? It feels totally unnecessary.

Let’s be real for a second—if we ditched grades entirely, none of these kids, especially the ones in second, third, or fourth grade, would ever even touch a book, let alone actually learn something. I mean, come on, let's get serious here... what would even be the point of going to school at all? You really think they’re sitting there finding multiplication tables fascinating while it's snowing outside and they could just be home dreaming away?😁
Maybe we should just push back those 9:00 or 10:00 AM start times for freshmen instead? Honestly, that might actually make way more sense than just getting rid of grades altogether...😉

I really feel like school should be taught in a way that captures their interest. I mean, what other choice is there?
And it doesn't just start in elementary school... so much of what we teach in the early grades actually starts back in preschool. From reading stories and retelling them—which ties back to the original post—to those little role-playing games where they play shopkeeper or waiter and practice adding, subtracting, and multiplying...

Lawrence Torres56 said:

I mean, seriously? Is this really what we're doing now? Just dropping random words like that without any context or a shred of actual conversation? It’s like walking into a crowded diner in Chicago, sitting down at the counter, and just grunting at the cook instead of ordering a damn breakfast sandwich. Are we just testing to see if the lights are on, or is there some kind of deep, philosophical subtext here that I'm somehow too dim-witted to grasp? If you've got something to say, just say it, right? Don't leave us all hanging in this weirdly silent void. kaže:
I’m telling you right now, and I mean this with absolute conviction: kids actually love to learn. Like, they genuinely crave it. They don't need some arbitrary letter grade or a GPA hovering over their heads just to spark that curiosity, you know? Why do we act like a report card is the only thing that makes knowledge stick?
Honestly, it’s more than just a minor setback—half the time, they just completely strip away anyone's will to keep going.
How does a kid even learn to walk? Like, how do they figure out how to balance and move without falling on their face every five seconds? And how do they eventually master riding a bike? It’s all instinct, right? Then you look at these little kids in preschool and they’re already being taught letters and sounds, but there aren't any grades or report cards to serve as "feedback" to tell them if they're actually getting it or just spinning their wheels. How does that whole learning loop even work without a formal score?

Look, let’s be real for a second—kids just want to dive headfirst into whatever actually sparks their curiosity, right? And since we all know they aren't some cookie-cutter group where everyone is wired the same way, it’s pretty obvious that what captures one kid's imagination is going to be total boredom for the next. But hey, the school curriculum is what it is, isn't it? It’s set in stone. At the end of the day, those grades are basically just there to act as a carrot on a stick to keep them motivated and, honestly, just to keep things from descending into absolute chaos in the classroom.

I mean, I totally get where boldani is coming from on this one, but I’m honestly struggling to see where the parents actually dropped the ball here. Like, what exactly was their mistake? Did they just fail to pick a teacher with enough experience to handle a classroom? Or maybe they dropped their kid off in a class where everyone else is basically bouncing off the walls, making it impossible for any student to actually focus on the lesson? I don't know, it just feels like there's a missing piece to this puzzle.
What's actually a valid excuse when you feel like the material just isn't being explained well enough for a kid to actually wrap their head around it? Like, how do you even frame that without sounding like you're just making excuses for them falling behind?

Why are you always shifting the blame onto everyone else? Seriously, is it really that hard to just accept that kids aren't some carbon copy of one another? Maybe our kid isn't some budding little Einstein right now, or maybe they just haven't hit that specific developmental milestone yet, or whatever... the point is, they need us to step up. I mean, at the end of the day, who knows our own child better than we do? Take my little one, for example. During the first half of the school year, she was constantly tripping up during spelling tests, always leaving one or two mistakes here and there, especially when the words got a bit longer. Eventually, I realized she was really struggling with syllable division—she just couldn't wrap her head around how to break a word down. So, what did I do? I told her to try singing the words out loud like a song. And wouldn't you know it? Just like that, the struggle with spelling vanished. Sure, I could have just sat back and let her keep struggling until she ended up hating school, or I could have sat around waiting for her teacher to fix it, or I could have just taken matters into my own hands like I did. It was a choice, plain and simple. And since I’m operating under the assumption that we all actually care about our kids being happy and confident, I don't see why anyone would find it difficult to just help them get there.

Wait, isn't this part of your post a little bit contradictory?
So, on one hand, you’re out here preaching about how kids are totally burnt out because their school schedules are absolutely suffocating them, right? But then, in the very next breath, you’re actually suggesting that a parent should just double down and pile even more of the exact same workload on top of them once they finally get home? Like, seriously, how does that even make sense? You can't claim the system is crushing them under the weight of too many hours and then turn around and advocate for adding even more pressure to an already exhausted kid at the dinner table. It’s kind of a wild contradiction, don't you think? 😕

Look, I’m not even trying to make some grand claim here, I’m just saying—this is my one personal gripe with the whole thing. It’s not about whether they're being taught too much or if the workload is getting out of hand, seriously, that's not it at all. It comes down to one thing and one thing only: their actual ability to sit still and focus.
Look, I’m telling you, bringing the curriculum closer to where they actually live isn't some massive extra burden on teachers—it’s just common sense. It’s not about piling more work onto their plates; it’s strictly and exclusively about taking the stuff they’re already struggling to grasp and explaining it in a way that actually clicks for them, you know? If we can present the material through a lens that’s actually engaging and relatable to an American kid, why wouldn't we? Is it really "extra" if it just makes the lesson finally make sense?

Honestly, I feel like I’ve already ranted about this on another thread, but here we go again because it’s just so obvious: giving grades to kids in elementary school is completely pointless. Like, seriously, what is the actual goal there? It feels totally unnecessary.

Let’s be real for a second—if we ditched grades entirely, none of these kids, especially the ones in second, third, or fourth grade, would ever even touch a book, let alone actually learn something. I mean, come on, let's get serious here... what would even be the point of going to school at all? You really think they’re sitting there finding multiplication tables fascinating while it's snowing outside and they could just be home dreaming away?😁
Maybe we should just push back those 9:00 or 10:00 AM start times for freshmen instead? Honestly, that might actually make way more sense than just getting rid of grades altogether...😉

I was born during the era of the Great Depression, and I attended my first grade classes back in a world that felt very different from today. We didn't have grades for the first four years of school.
My parents told me to go to school and be a model student—work hard and be a good friend—because that’s what our ancestors fought for, ensuring education was free and available to everyone. 😬
They also reminded me that finishing school would make life a lot easier down the road.

I used to absolutely love practicing my multiplication tables! 😍 But whenever it snowed, I’d spend my time daydreaming just like everyone else in my class or my neighborhood until it got too dark and we had to be ushered home before we froze. We’d spend our after-school time playing in the snow or helping clear the sidewalks in front of the school for people walking by.