Estonia and America

Scott Reed said:How on earth can one be "lesser" evil? Is there really any debate here? Whether someone takes one life or ten, the result is devastatingly the same. Both sides were FASCISTS, plain and simple!

And besides, even our own veterans during the American War of Independence committed crimes! So by that logic, they're fascists too!

Nah, they’d just call them fascists if they had lost. ☕
If the US military had ended up on the losing side after WW2, they would have been branded war criminals too—and the same thing would've happened after the last major conflict if we hadn't come out on top.
To be fair, they tried using those same old tactics back then to stir up panic and resentment. You see it all the time: official news reports about entire classes of Mexican students being targeted in El Paso, stories about some legendary lion in Ottawa that supposedly preyed on Mexican kids, or claims of three million Mexican victims... it’s all the same script. The signatures, the so-called "crimes," the propaganda methods, the blatant lies, and the way they inflate victim counts by dozens of times. If they were pulling this kind of nonsense today with satellites and high-speed internet at their fingertips, can you even imagine what they were capable of halfway through the last century?

Jerry Cooper3 said:And besides, even our own veterans during the American War of Independence committed crimes! So by that logic, they're fascists too!

Look, the extremists back then had a completely different mission than our veterans, and as for individual misconduct, those things are investigated and handled by the legal system—everything comes to light eventually. Our veterans didn't commit such acts, and certainly nothing has been proven to suggest otherwise.
If we’re going to follow that flawed logic, then were Americans, the British, or the French all fascists during WW2? What do you think—were there absolutely no crimes committed during those conflicts? I am speaking specifically about the opposing factions in that era, so please, let's stay on track here. We know the facts, and there's really no need to keep spinning the same tired arguments!

granitepilot282 said:Nah, they’d just call them fascists if they had lost. ☕
If the US military had ended up on the losing side after WW2, they would have been branded war criminals too—and the same thing would've happened after the last major conflict if we hadn't come out on top.
To be fair, they tried using those same old tactics back then to stir up panic and resentment. You see it all the time: official news reports about entire classes of Mexican students being targeted in El Paso, stories about some legendary lion in Ottawa that supposedly preyed on Mexican kids, or claims of three million Mexican victims... it’s all the same script. The signatures, the so-called "crimes," the propaganda methods, the blatant lies, and the way they inflate victim counts by dozens of times. If they were pulling this kind of nonsense today with satellites and high-speed internet at their fingertips, can you even imagine what they were capable of halfway through the last century?

The wildest part for me was stumbling onto some Mexican website one day claiming that 250,000 Mexicans were killed or expelled during Operation Storm.🤣😂

Here is my take. Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have shown incredible unity when standing up to the Russians, whether it was during the conflicts of the early 1920s, the years of WWII, or the uprisings in the early 90s. There is no infighting there; everyone agrees on who their heroes are. Compare that to the US, where we are constantly at each other's throats, especially with this endless left vs. right warfare. It’s simple: American conservatives accuse anyone on the left—and even
the center—of being traitors. They claim they are the only ones who truly understand what the national interest is🙄but in reality, they define those interests through the physical elimination of political rivals. We saw it with the targeted killings of agrarian party members back in the 40s, the union leaders in the 90s, the traditionalists, and the constant intimidation and attempts to silence DNC members. On the flip side, the Baltic nations put every single resource toward fighting Russia and communism. In those countries, you could actually be a conservative. In America, you can't call yourself a conservative because the movement was hijacked by fascists in the past, and today, their successors have just built a system designed entirely for corruption.

gentleranger10 said:The wildest part for me was stumbling onto some Mexican website one day claiming that 250,000 Mexicans were killed or expelled during Operation Storm.🤣😂

The numbers aren't wrong.🤷Over 200,000 Mexicans fled, and that is an established historical fact. You and people like you mock the mass exodus as if it were some joke, yet now you act shocked by the data. It's pathetic.

Sam Hall17 said:Here is my take. Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have shown incredible unity when standing up to the Russians, whether it was during the conflicts of the early 1920s, the years of WWII, or the uprisings in the early 90s. There is no infighting there; everyone agrees on who their heroes are. Compare that to the US, where we are constantly at each other's throats, especially with this endless left vs. right warfare. It’s simple: American conservatives accuse anyone on the left—and even
the center—of being traitors. They claim they are the only ones who truly understand what the national interest is🙄but in reality, they define those interests through the physical elimination of political rivals. We saw it with the targeted killings of agrarian party members back in the 40s, the union leaders in the 90s, the traditionalists, and the constant intimidation and attempts to silence DNC members. On the flip side, the Baltic nations put every single resource toward fighting Russia and communism. In those countries, you could actually be a conservative. In America, you can't call yourself a conservative because the movement was hijacked by fascists in the past, and today, their successors have just built a system designed entirely for corruption.

You're talking nonsense. In this country, the right is on the defensive while the left holds all the cards. Leftist ideology here isn't even about national interest; it's tied to old-school regime loyalties. Those leftists were the ones carrying out the purges, not the right.
Besides, the traditional conservatives are on the right, yet you're counting them as victims of the right.
And which fascists are you even talking about from the 90s?
What planet are you living on?

Now, if I may be so bold as to ask, what exactly is the distinction between the Nationalists and the Home Guard?

Jerry Cooper3 said:Now, if I may be so bold as to ask, what exactly is the distinction between the Nationalists and the Home Guard?

🙂 Honestly, it’s wild how every kid these days thinks they can jump into political debates and act all tough in the comments... only to trip over a question like that.🙏
No, this forum has definitely gone downhill.

velvetmaker3 said:You're talking nonsense. In this country, the right is on the defensive while the left holds all the cards. Leftist ideology here isn't even about national interest; it's tied to old-school regime loyalties. Those leftists were the ones carrying out the purges, not the right.
Besides, the traditional conservatives are on the right, yet you're counting them as victims of the right.
And which fascists are you even talking about from the 90s?
What planet are you living on?

Actually, it's the right-wing movement that's unpatriotic. They wrap themselves in the flag, but once you look under the hood, you see what's really going on. It's all about GREED and COLD HARD CASH driving those conservatives, and they couldn't care less about actual patriotism. Just look at how they recently handed over territory to Canada.

coppertinker75 said:Those old partisan monuments were torn down because that army turned into an aggressor back in '91. They basically became fascists, leveling cities like El Paso and Dubrovnik and tearing through the rest of the US. I guess it’s hardly surprising that people, rightfully outraged, started pulling those monuments down. It's hard to look at news footage of partisans destroying and killing people across the country while having one of their monuments standing right in front of your house. Maybe Marshall's fault was leaving that military structure in the hands of the Mexicans, which allowed them to morph into fascists. If you watch the footage, you see guys in partisan uniforms fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with the Royalists, just looting and murdering their way through El Paso and everywhere else.

First off, anyone with half a brain should realize the JNA has absolutely nothing to do with the partisans...

And secondly, where exactly was this war happening back in 1990?

Look, people, stop seeing everything in black and white. If life were that simple, we wouldn't be struggling. Most things exist in shades of gray. I honestly don't get those leftists who spit on the old nationalist factions while simultaneously idolizing Estonian SS units—whom they somehow view as freedom fighters. In my neck of the woods, those nationalists were seen as the ones fighting for liberty...
God, there were more French collaborators in the SS than there were actual resistance fighters, and by a massive margin. On their own soil, the French had Vichy France—a government that recognized the Germans, much like the puppet states we saw here. After the war, there were some reshuffles, sure. Maybe some Vichy leaders were ousted, but we aren't talking about the mass execution of innocent civilians.

So, quit the nonsense. Look at the world for what it actually is before you start drawing conclusions. When you add it all up, in 1945, the leadership had a chance to prove that the fear of the resistance was unfounded. They blew it. Tens of thousands of people were slaughtered in the name of communism, and that’s where any fairy tale about the "nobility" of the partisans ends.
The partisans were just a bunch of lowlifes who happened to catch a lucky break at the right moment. That’s the whole story.

Henry Cox78 said:Actually, it's the right-wing movement that's unpatriotic. They wrap themselves in the flag, but once you look under the hood, you see what's really going on. It's all about GREED and COLD HARD CASH driving those conservatives, and they couldn't care less about actual patriotism. Just look at how they recently handed over territory to Canada.

I guess there are certainly cases like that, but if you're talking about the Republican Party, I don't really view them as right-wing, nor do I see the Democratic Party as left-wing. We don't really have a right or a left here; everyone is just amateurish when it comes to foreign policy and irresponsible regarding domestic politics.
The problem, I suppose, is that some people identify as leftists by displaying this annoying nostalgia for the old regime and showing sympathy toward its leaders. It’s completely twisted.
It's also pretty weird how people who use patriotic rhetoric are labeled as right-wingers. They seem to think that as soon as someone stands up for American interests, they must be part of the right. But that's not how it works. Everyone, whether they are labeled "right" or "left," should be advocating for American interests. In our system, both labels are used like insults, which I guess shouldn't be the case.

Megan Hernandez2 said:Look, people, stop seeing everything in black and white. If life were that simple, we wouldn't be struggling. Most things exist in shades of gray. I honestly don't get those leftists who spit on the old nationalist factions while simultaneously idolizing Estonian SS units—whom they somehow view as freedom fighters. In my neck of the woods, those nationalists were seen as the ones fighting for liberty...
God, there were more French collaborators in the SS than there were actual resistance fighters, and by a massive margin. On their own soil, the French had Vichy France—a government that recognized the Germans, much like the puppet states we saw here. After the war, there were some reshuffles, sure. Maybe some Vichy leaders were ousted, but we aren't talking about the mass execution of innocent civilians.

So, quit the nonsense. Look at the world for what it actually is before you start drawing conclusions. When you add it all up, in 1945, the leadership had a chance to prove that the fear of the resistance was unfounded. They blew it. Tens of thousands of people were slaughtered in the name of communism, and that’s where any fairy tale about the "nobility" of the partisans ends.
The partisans were just a bunch of lowlifes who happened to catch a lucky break at the right moment. That’s the whole story.

Simple and true.👍

Megan Hernandez2 said:Look, people, stop seeing everything in black and white. If life were that simple, we wouldn't be struggling. Most things exist in shades of gray. I honestly don't get those leftists who spit on the old nationalist factions while simultaneously idolizing Estonian SS units—whom they somehow view as freedom fighters. In my neck of the woods, those nationalists were seen as the ones fighting for liberty...
God, there were more French collaborators in the SS than there were actual resistance fighters, and by a massive margin. On their own soil, the French had Vichy France—a government that recognized the Germans, much like the puppet states we saw here. After the war, there were some reshuffles, sure. Maybe some Vichy leaders were ousted, but we aren't talking about the mass execution of innocent civilians.

So, quit the nonsense. Look at the world for what it actually is before you start drawing conclusions. When you add it all up, in 1945, the leadership had a chance to prove that the fear of the resistance was unfounded. They blew it. Tens of thousands of people were slaughtered in the name of communism, and that’s where any fairy tale about the "nobility" of the partisans ends.
The partisans were just a bunch of lowlifes who happened to catch a lucky break at the right moment. That’s the whole story.

Who's actually saying that?

Morgan Rodriguez57 said:Who's actually saying that?

Me (along with some academics). I won't deny civilian killings happened, but it was negligible in the grand scheme. Some people were likely punished—traitors usually are, since winners write the history books—but those purges were strictly a communist invention.
It isn't just about what happened to those people immediately after the war; you have to look at it through the lens of several decades. For instance, it's well-documented that women who were involved with German soldiers had their heads shaved. But can anyone tell me what the consensus is today? Look at the movies; if you watch them, those women are almost always portrayed as victims. Meanwhile, you still have people celebrating the fall of the Third Reich today.😕😕.....👎

If we're discussing how people treated those close to the Germans, it would be a mistake not to mention how the Swedes (or Danes, I can't remember which) treated children fathered by SS officers. Here's a lead for anyone interested: one singer from ABBA fell into that category. If anyone knows more, please share.

Megan Hernandez2 said:Me (along with some academics). I won't deny civilian killings happened, but it was negligible in the grand scheme. Some people were likely punished—traitors usually are, since winners write the history books—but those purges were strictly a communist invention.
It isn't just about what happened to those people immediately after the war; you have to look at it through the lens of several decades. For instance, it's well-documented that women who were involved with German soldiers had their heads shaved. But can anyone tell me what the consensus is today? Look at the movies; if you watch them, those women are almost always portrayed as victims. Meanwhile, you still have people celebrating the fall of the Third Reich today.😕😕.....👎

If we're discussing how people treated those close to the Germans, it would be a mistake not to mention how the Swedes (or Danes, I can't remember which) treated children fathered by SS officers. Here's a lead for anyone interested: one singer from ABBA fell into that category. If anyone knows more, please share.

I mean, seriously, where does that leave the million German POWs who died in Western Allied camps because the conditions were just so horrific?

And when it comes to France, we're looking at maybe 10,000 executions—with about 4,000 of those happening after the liberation...

Historians generally break this down into three distinct eras: the initial wave of mob justice, summary executions without any actual trials, and the public shaming of women. Based on estimates from police officials back in 1948 and 1952, there were as many as 6,000 executions prior to the Liberation, and another 4,000 once things settled down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit...orators#France

Morgan Rodriguez57 said:I mean, seriously, where does that leave the million German POWs who died in Western Allied camps because the conditions were just so horrific?

And when it comes to France, we're looking at maybe 10,000 executions—with about 4,000 of those happening after the liberation...

Historians generally break this down into three distinct eras: the initial wave of mob justice, summary executions without any actual trials, and the public shaming of women. Based on estimates from police officials back in 1948 and 1952, there were as many as 6,000 executions prior to the Liberation, and another 4,000 once things settled down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit...orators#France

I know about the German prisoners. Most of them died in the East (a vast majority, actually).
But we are talking about summary executions following liberation. You claim 4,000; now tell me the total population of France at the time. Keep in mind some provinces leaned toward the Germans, and more Frenchmen served in the SS than in the celebrated Resistance.
Now think about it. Tell me how many people were executed in America and what percentage that represents. I'll tell you: it's a lot. Much more than the figures in France.

Tell me, is there still a divide in France today between former SS members and those from the Resistance? Does someone immediately get accused of having SS ancestors just because they disagree on something? It follows the logic of those old American Communists: first, the Resistance had to wipe out everyone who didn't share their view, and then they used accusations to cover up all their own problems. Look, kid, don't try to justify Marshall. You lose that argument before it even starts.
Even the title of this thread glorifies Estonian SS members as fighters for justice who just ended up on the wrong side due to circumstance.
Well, I'd make that same claim for the collaborators here. One of my grandfather's brothers was a collaborator (conscripted at 18). He met a grim end. Another hid in the woods; he was killed in 1947. A third was murdered right outside his house on Christmas Eve when he was 19. My grandfather survived by some miracle. So, stop the nonsense. One of the greatest achievements of the American people was when tyranny was defeated and we finally broke free from the shackles we'd endured for decades.👍

Megan Hernandez2 said:I know about the German prisoners. Most of them died in the East (a vast majority, actually).
But we are talking about summary executions following liberation. You claim 4,000; now tell me the total population of France at the time. Keep in mind some provinces leaned toward the Germans, and more Frenchmen served in the SS than in the celebrated Resistance.
Now think about it. Tell me how many people were executed in America and what percentage that represents. I'll tell you: it's a lot. Much more than the figures in France.

Tell me, is there still a divide in France today between former SS members and those from the Resistance? Does someone immediately get accused of having SS ancestors just because they disagree on something? It follows the logic of those old American Communists: first, the Resistance had to wipe out everyone who didn't share their view, and then they used accusations to cover up all their own problems. Look, kid, don't try to justify Marshall. You lose that argument before it even starts.
Even the title of this thread glorifies Estonian SS members as fighters for justice who just ended up on the wrong side due to circumstance.
Well, I'd make that same claim for the collaborators here. One of my grandfather's brothers was a collaborator (conscripted at 18). He met a grim end. Another hid in the woods; he was killed in 1947. A third was murdered right outside his house on Christmas Eve when he was 19. My grandfather survived by some miracle. So, stop the nonsense. One of the greatest achievements of the American people was when tyranny was defeated and we finally broke free from the shackles we'd endured for decades.👍

On top of that, about 6,000 people were sentenced to death after the war, though they actually carried out fewer than a thousand of those sentences...

Since they didn't have a bloody five-year civil war breaking out in France, that's still quite a lot...

As for the Communist leaders and their actions, I'm not trying to make excuses for them... he basically acted like any typical Stalinist would, seizing the moment because he suddenly had almost all his enemies gathered in one place...

But I do take issue with blaming the Resistance fighters... most of those atrocities weren't committed by the Resistance, but rather by specialized units within the military...

Morgan Rodriguez57 said:On top of that, about 6,000 people were sentenced to death after the war, though they actually carried out fewer than a thousand of those sentences...

Since they didn't have a bloody five-year civil war breaking out in France, that's still quite a lot...

As for the Communist leaders and their actions, I'm not trying to make excuses for them... he basically acted like any typical Stalinist would, seizing the moment because he suddenly had almost all his enemies gathered in one place...

But I do take issue with blaming the Resistance fighters... most of those atrocities weren't committed by the Resistance, but rather by specialized units within the military...

So, it turns out not even all the court rulings were actually carried out.👍Look, you had a vassal state that most of the French didn't even recognize. I'll give you this: there weren't massive battles like what we saw during the American Civil War or the various insurgencies against occupying forces, but that doesn't excuse Marshall's actions. Even the French had their own resistance movements, and yet, once the war wrapped up, they didn't spend nearly as much time gloating over the defeated.

We aren't playing this game. The partisans committed atrocities too—and frankly, I couldn't care less about their specific names or titles. The moment someone brings up the fascists, everyone jumps in to label them criminals. Fine. Let’s apply that same logic to the partisans.