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Estonia and America

Started by Sam Hall17 · · 👁 6 views · 43 replies

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Participants Sam Hall17velvetmaker3coppertinker75Scott Reedgranitepilot282Megan Hernandez2Amanda Brooks7Richard Wilson4Richard Hayes4Samuel Scott54Jerry Cooper3gentleranger10Henry Cox78Morgan Rodriguez57electricangler22Bryan Walker66
Morgan Rodriguez57 Morgan Rodriguez57 Active Member
216 messages
joined Oct 2011
#41 ·
Megan Hernandez2 said:So, it turns out not even all the court rulings were actually carried out.👍Look, you had a vassal state that most of the French didn't even recognize. I'll give you this: there weren't massive battles like what we saw during the American Civil War or the various insurgencies against occupying forces, but that doesn't excuse Marshall's actions. Even the French had their own resistance movements, and yet, once the war wrapped up, they didn't spend nearly as much time gloating over the defeated.

We aren't playing this game. The partisans committed atrocities too—and frankly, I couldn't care less about their specific names or titles. The moment someone brings up the fascists, everyone jumps in to label them criminals. Fine. Let’s apply that same logic to the partisans.

well, we won't... if you look at the Axis side, you have the regular military and then the paramilitary units—most people view the regular army as the legitimate force, while seeing the paramilitaries as a separate group... it's kind of a similar setup on the Allied side, where you have the official government forces versus the resistance fighters... something like that...
Megan Hernandez2 Megan Hernandez2 Active Member
111 messages
joined Mar 2013
#42 ·
Morgan Rodriguez57 said:well, we won't... if you look at the Axis side, you have the regular military and then the paramilitary units—most people view the regular army as the legitimate force, while seeing the paramilitaries as a separate group... it's kind of a similar setup on the Allied side, where you have the official government forces versus the resistance fighters... something like that...

Who are you trying to fool?
The regular army was the official force, while the paramilitaries functioned as a specialized unit within that framework. They still shared the same supreme commander.
It’s the exact same logic applied to various partisan factions.
Every nation on earth has a standing army alongside special units that bypass the traditional chain of command to report directly to the top leadership. Regardless, they are still military units belonging to that state. Stop trying to fix something that isn't broken. The atrocities committed during the war were done in the name of communism, carried out by people who swore allegiance to the Party... whether you call them partisans or just "Red boys," the reality remains the same.
Jerry Cooper3 Jerry Cooper3 Member
38 messages
joined Oct 2011
#43 ·
granitepilot282 said:🙂 Honestly, it’s wild how every kid these days thinks they can jump into political debates and act all tough in the comments... only to trip over a question like that.🙏
No, this forum has definitely gone downhill.

That isn't even an answer to what I actually asked, and I am certainly not some child.☕
Bryan Walker66 Bryan Walker66 Newcomer
1 message
joined Nov 2009
#44 ·
Since the author decided to draw parallels between Estonia and America, let’s actually unpack the reality of the Estonian resistance. It’s a messy business—far from the black-and-white caricature most people imagine. You see, "Estonians"—or what the Germans call the Aesti people—don't even view themselves through that singular label. That's just a modern, artificial umbrella term used to group together the Seto, Harju, Saaremaa, Voru, and Viljandi peoples. A significant number of ethnic Estonians actually live within the administrative borders of Russia, much like various ethnic Finn groups, such as the Karelian and Vepsian people. And honestly? The idea that Russians were always the villains in the history of Estonia isn't strictly accurate either. For instance, back in the day, Czar Alexander II actually emancipated certain groups... and so on, and so forth. Then you have the so-called Siberian Estonians. Beyond being displaced by Russians, a tiny fraction was forced out following a peasant revolt in the 19th century involving Mahtra soda, though most of those folks moved toward Siberia simply searching for a decent life. This migration scattered Estonians across Siberia over a very long period.

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol21/siberia.pdf

The Estonians, alongside the Finns, represent some of the oldest peoples in Europe. Originally pagan, they were notoriously stubborn when it came to adopting imposed religions. Aside from the Lutherans, who managed to gain some traction, Estonians haven't historically been particularly religious in the way Americans might be, and some segments even embraced Orthodoxy.

It’s true that a good portion of Estonians welcomed the WW2 Germans as liberators from the Soviet occupation, but historically speaking, the Estonians have often had a complicated, antagonistic relationship with German influence. There have been countless attempts at Germanization over the centuries, and since the Estonians were largely a warrior culture, they frequently wiped out any German presence in their territory. Take the resistance on the island of Saaremaa, for example—they were famous as northern pirates who took great pleasure in settling scores with the Germans.

Looking at more recent history, beyond the well-known SS divisions that operated within the Wehrmacht, there was also a dedicated partisan movement known as the Estonian Partisan Movement Staff—partisans who leaned pro-Soviet, or more accurately, anti-Nazi.

What’s truly striking is that after the Soviet occupation in 1944, following the massive battle near Narva where Estonia was annexed again, many fighters refused to accept the peaceful surrender of the Estonian authorities. Instead, they kept up the guerrilla war against the Soviet occupiers. In those days, standing up to the Red Army—which was essentially the largest military machine on the planet—with nothing but a handful of patriots is something that demands genuine respect.

The Metsavennad, or Forest Brothers, maintained their resistance in Estonia until 1956, whereas in Latvia, the last partisan to emerge from the woods and surrender to the Soviets didn't do so until 1965. There is even data suggesting one Latvian individual remained in hiding until the 1990s, following the declaration of independence in Latvia.

All things considered, Estonia and America have both navigated very similar, rather unfortunate historical trajectories.

Just putting this out there, so we don't fall into the trap of useless generalizations.

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