Debates about meditation

Oh, absolutely. More often than not, strawberries end up being the final destination for a whole lot of deep spiritual debates 🙂

Edward Flores4 said:Everything I say—just like everything anyone else ever says—is nothing more than a personal representation and a glimpse through the lens of "the one speaking." No one is actually in a position to give you anything other than their own specific perspective on how things look. There isn't some ultimate authority out there that can tell you exactly how the color red is supposed to appear to you. For you, red is simply whatever it is that you perceive as red... and that’s that. Period.

I honestly don't see why you feel the need to constantly emphasize that this is "your vision"—it’s pretty much obvious from the jump, isn't it?

Quincy:

Don't you think that’s exactly where the beauty lies? The fact that you have the total freedom to interpret one thing—in this case, meditation—on your own terms. It’s like we can both be absolutely right at the same time, just because I'm looking at it through my lens while you're viewing it through yours.

Honestly? I don't see the beauty in it, but I don't see a problem either. I'm totally on board with the idea that if someone feels like they need to go see a psychiatrist, then they really should—it’s probably worth having someone give their headspace a professional "tune-up." In other words, if you feel like you need something, you need it. If you feel like you don't, then you don't. It’s as simple as that.

Quincy:

Look, I get it—to you, meditation is this spontaneous state of being, something that just flows constantly without any way to measure it... But the way you're presenting it to us here feels a bit limited—it's ultimately bounded by your own personal perspective and how you choose to quantify it.

If we actually knew one another—like, truly, deeply knew each other—then my words would have some kind of measurable weight when held up against who I really am. But since we’re essentially strangers, my words aren't really "me" to you; instead, they just act as raw material for your own mind to build a mental picture. And that picture—whatever version of me you’ve constructed in your head—is really just a projection of your own psyche. In a way, you’re actually measuring my words against your own internal compass, because you're the one who shaped that image based on what I said. I know, it sounds a bit deep and maybe even a little complicated... but I think if you sit with it for a second, you'll catch my drift.

I just want to be clear about my position here—I’m only ever sharing what I personally perceive, which is really the only thing I’m capable of talking about. The actual process of measuring or comparing those ideas? That happens entirely within you, the reader. In my view, what you choose to measure and the final result you get from that measurement are two completely different, disconnected things. It’s like that old saying: the map is not the territory. 🙂

Quincy:

Have you ever stopped to wonder who I actually am to be telling anyone else what meditation IS? At the end of the day, all I can really offer is my own perspective—just my own take on what the whole thing means to me.

Of course I am. Honestly, I’ve come to realize that the whole point of these forums is the actual exchange of ideas—where we seek out those different perspectives that can actually stretch our own horizons. If someone comes here just looking for an echo chamber where everyone agrees with them, they’re going to end up incredibly frustrated. That kind of "yes-man" environment—that constant seeking of like-minded validation—is exactly what you find in religious institutions, political parties, cults, or sects. That's not why we're here.

Look, I’m not claiming to be some kind of untouchable authority figure here—I’m just the author of my own thoughts. That’s really all there is to it. To me, writing "with authority" doesn't mean I'm claiming to have the absolute truth, or that I can't be dead wrong sometimes. It just means I actually stand behind everything I put on the page. When I say that, I mean I’ve done the work to ensure that every single sentence, every specific word, and every concept I bring up can be broken down and explained through dozens of different metaphors, analogies, perspectives, or real-world examples. If we get into a debate, I should be able to define exactly what I mean by any term I use. I won't hide behind vague excuses like "it's ineffable," "it's a state of no-mind," or some other spiritual way of saying "I've surrendered my reason to a higher power." I believe in being clear, not hiding behind mystery.

So, I’m not really trying to lecture you all here—not by a long shot. What I’m actually looking for is some solid, high-quality counterarguments. See, there's this funny little paradox where every time we expand our "scope of understanding," we simultaneously push out the boundaries of what we don't understand even further. It's like chasing a horizon line—the more you move toward it, the more space opens up ahead of you. Since the "unknown" is essentially defined by its own mystery, I find myself relying on others to act as "agents" who can help facilitate an encounter with that unknown. In my view, that's really the only mechanism we have for pushing the needle of understanding any further.

Believe it or not, I’m really just here to run into something completely unexpected—to stumble upon ideas I haven't even considered yet. In the meantime, I figure I'll spend my time stress-testing everything I think I know by engaging with people who don't see eye to eye with me. Don't get me wrong, chatting with people who agree with everything I say is easy, but it doesn't actually move the needle or lead to anything constructive. It's just an echo chamber. I think that pretty much sums me up.

Quincy:

I mean, I’m just being honest when I say this—it sounds absolutely beautiful, right? The idea of living in a constant state of meditation, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. But let's be real for a second—isn't it a bit of an illusion to expect that from "regular" people like us?

Nobody is actually "ordinary"... everyone is inherently unique. The thing is, you only tend to notice the unusual because it stands out against the backdrop of what we consider normal. It’s like how you only really register a massive mountain or a jagged peak because it breaks up the flat, endless stretch of a plain between two hills. But hey, let's look closer at that...

If I actually walked around thinking I was some special snowflake or fundamentally different from "regular folks," I wouldn't be bothering to share my perspective with anyone at all. Honestly, I see myself as just as much an "average Joe" as anybody else—which, if you think about it, makes us all pretty much the same kind of unconventional. No one is born with a golden ticket or marked as "chosen." Everything I’ve managed to figure out or achieve is stuff that anyone else could do if they put in the work. I don't have some secret, unfair advantage that would somehow justify treating "you regular people" differently or suggest that there's some level of insight that's just off-limits to everyone else.

Quincy:

So, after a day that’s just absolutely draining, I sometimes manage to force myself to slow down—you know, light a candle, settle in, and try to find some peace through meditation. Some days it works beautifully, and other times? Not so much. There are even those nights where I don't even bother trying because my brain is just too scattered and restless to sit still. But then there are those rare, perfect moments where I don't have to push at all; it just happens spontaneously. Honestly, those are the best moments of all.

That’s totally fine—really, there’s nothing wrong with that approach. Honestly, I’d much rather someone try to lower their stress levels through meditation than not bother at all. It's better than nothing, right? But at the same time, I can't help but feel like it's a bit of a missed opportunity if you aren't practicing that mindfulness while you're actually at work. If you could catch the stress before it even takes root during the workday, you'd be heading home feeling completely unburdened. You wouldn't just be "managing" the pressure—you'd be avoiding the buildup entirely. That way, you could actually show up for your life at home and give your full attention to whatever matters most, instead of being stuck constantly relying on how well a specific "stress reduction" technique worked for you later in the evening.

I’m telling you this from my own personal experience—and trust me, I work in one of the most high-pressure industries out there today. Believe me when I say that very little compares to the sheer stress of being forced to produce something "creative" on an impossibly tight deadline. Having to whip up a design by "tomorrow morning" and then being held responsible for how it actually performs in the market? That is a genuine pain in the ass.

Quincy:

So, what now? Am I supposed to just sit around waiting for some perfect, "ideal" moment to strike? Honestly, I’ve just started tailoring my practice to fit my own life—making things work for me rather than fighting against them. And you know what? After doing some "targeted" meditation, I actually feel this deep sense of peace; my mind is just... quiet. Sometimes it even feels more profound than when I just dive into it spontaneously. I don't really have any grand, profound wisdom to drop on anyone here. I've just come to accept that what works for me might not work for someone else at all—and that’s perfectly okay. It goes both ways, really.

Well, nothing much to say there... 🙂

Look, I’m not coming out here saying anyone needs to drop their habits, overhaul their lifestyle, or make excuses because of what I have to say. I’m just offering a different perspective—strictly my own personal take. I’m not out here peddling an ideology, a specific technique, or some rigid belief system... I don't see myself as someone who is "fixing" anyone, nor do I believe people actually *need* fixing.

If someone happens to stumble upon something interesting in my words—maybe they tuck a little thought away just as a "curiosity" or a "possibility"—well, then if I happen to be right, that person will likely find those ideas resurfacing at just the right moment. It'll hit them when those ideas offer a cleaner, simpler way to make sense of their own "life drama" than whatever old interpretations they were clinging to before.

On the flip side, if I’ve just rambled on through a heap of nonsense, that nonsense won't offer any better explanations for anything. In that case, and quite rightfully so, nobody will even bother remembering the junk I wrote about two months down the road. That’s just how I see things. 🙂

In my experience, people react to my views in all sorts of ways; some are just genuinely curious, while others can get pretty prickly. Usually, that tension kicks in when people sense there might be some truth to what I'm saying. It’s like if you tried to convince someone that the Earth is shaped like a pyramid—which is obviously absurd—they’d probably just laugh it off. They wouldn't feel the need to push back with a question like:

Quincy:

Have you ever stopped to wonder who I am to be lecturing anyone else?

Typically, the folks reacting to my thoughts fall into two camps: those who are already doubting the very same things I am, or those who are terrified of the possibility that I might actually be right. The latter group tends to resort to belittling or provocation, and honestly, I always enjoy giving them a taste of their own medicine—sometimes even a bit more.

But at the end of the day, I walk away having learned something from both groups. Whether they decide to learn something themselves is entirely up to them. I'm not here to be anyone's teacher... I'm primarily here to learn something for myself.

Uh… 🙂 Honestly, you haven't. I don't think you're writing nonsense at all. While I find myself agreeing with the vast majority of your posts, I always love finding those specific points where we might hold differing perspectives. Thank you for such an exhaustive opening to your post; I truly have nothing to add to it 😉

Edward Flores4 said:Everything I say—just like everything anyone else ever says—is nothing more than a personal representation and a glimpse through the lens of "the one speaking." No one is actually in a position to give you anything other than their own specific perspective on how things look. There isn't some ultimate authority out there that can tell you exactly how the color red is supposed to appear to you. For you, red is simply whatever it is that you perceive as red... and that’s that. Period.

I honestly don't see why you feel the need to constantly emphasize that this is "your vision"—it’s pretty much obvious from the jump, isn't it?

Quincy:

Don't you think that’s exactly where the beauty lies? The fact that you have the total freedom to interpret one thing—in this case, meditation—on your own terms. It’s like we can both be absolutely right at the same time, just because I'm looking at it through my lens while you're viewing it through yours.

Honestly? I don't see the beauty in it, but I don't see a problem either. I'm totally on board with the idea that if someone feels like they need to go see a psychiatrist, then they really should—it’s probably worth having someone give their headspace a professional "tune-up." In other words, if you feel like you need something, you need it. If you feel like you don't, then you don't. It’s as simple as that.

Quincy:

Look, I get it—to you, meditation is this spontaneous state of being, something that just flows constantly without any way to measure it... But the way you're presenting it to us here feels a bit limited—it's ultimately bounded by your own personal perspective and how you choose to quantify it.

If we actually knew one another—like, truly, deeply knew each other—then my words would have some kind of measurable weight when held up against who I really am. But since we’re essentially strangers, my words aren't really "me" to you; instead, they just act as raw material for your own mind to build a mental picture. And that picture—whatever version of me you’ve constructed in your head—is really just a projection of your own psyche. In a way, you’re actually measuring my words against your own internal compass, because you're the one who shaped that image based on what I said. I know, it sounds a bit deep and maybe even a little complicated... but I think if you sit with it for a second, you'll catch my drift.

I just want to be clear about my position here—I’m only ever sharing what I personally perceive, which is really the only thing I’m capable of talking about. The actual process of measuring or comparing those ideas? That happens entirely within you, the reader. In my view, what you choose to measure and the final result you get from that measurement are two completely different, disconnected things. It’s like that old saying: the map is not the territory. 🙂

Quincy:

Have you ever stopped to wonder who I actually am to be telling anyone else what meditation IS? At the end of the day, all I can really offer is my own perspective—just my own take on what the whole thing means to me.

Of course I am. Honestly, I’ve come to realize that the whole point of these forums is the actual exchange of ideas—where we seek out those different perspectives that can actually stretch our own horizons. If someone comes here just looking for an echo chamber where everyone agrees with them, they’re going to end up incredibly frustrated. That kind of "yes-man" environment—that constant seeking of like-minded validation—is exactly what you find in religious institutions, political parties, cults, or sects. That's not why we're here.

Look, I’m not claiming to be some kind of untouchable authority figure here—I’m just the author of my own thoughts. That’s really all there is to it. To me, writing "with authority" doesn't mean I'm claiming to have the absolute truth, or that I can't be dead wrong sometimes. It just means I actually stand behind everything I put on the page. When I say that, I mean I’ve done the work to ensure that every single sentence, every specific word, and every concept I bring up can be broken down and explained through dozens of different metaphors, analogies, perspectives, or real-world examples. If we get into a debate, I should be able to define exactly what I mean by any term I use. I won't hide behind vague excuses like "it's ineffable," "it's a state of no-mind," or some other spiritual way of saying "I've surrendered my reason to a higher power." I believe in being clear, not hiding behind mystery.

So, I’m not really trying to lecture you all here—not by a long shot. What I’m actually looking for is some solid, high-quality counterarguments. See, there's this funny little paradox where every time we expand our "scope of understanding," we simultaneously push out the boundaries of what we don't understand even further. It's like chasing a horizon line—the more you move toward it, the more space opens up ahead of you. Since the "unknown" is essentially defined by its own mystery, I find myself relying on others to act as "agents" who can help facilitate an encounter with that unknown. In my view, that's really the only mechanism we have for pushing the needle of understanding any further.

Believe it or not, I’m really just here to run into something completely unexpected—to stumble upon ideas I haven't even considered yet. In the meantime, I figure I'll spend my time stress-testing everything I think I know by engaging with people who don't see eye to eye with me. Don't get me wrong, chatting with people who agree with everything I say is easy, but it doesn't actually move the needle or lead to anything constructive. It's just an echo chamber. I think that pretty much sums me up.

Quincy:

I mean, I’m just being honest when I say this—it sounds absolutely beautiful, right? The idea of living in a constant state of meditation, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. But let's be real for a second—isn't it a bit of an illusion to expect that from "regular" people like us?

Nobody is actually "ordinary"... everyone is inherently unique. The thing is, you only tend to notice the unusual because it stands out against the backdrop of what we consider normal. It’s like how you only really register a massive mountain or a jagged peak because it breaks up the flat, endless stretch of a plain between two hills. But hey, let's look closer at that...

If I actually walked around thinking I was some special snowflake or fundamentally different from "regular folks," I wouldn't be bothering to share my perspective with anyone at all. Honestly, I see myself as just as much an "average Joe" as anybody else—which, if you think about it, makes us all pretty much the same kind of unconventional. No one is born with a golden ticket or marked as "chosen." Everything I’ve managed to figure out or achieve is stuff that anyone else could do if they put in the work. I don't have some secret, unfair advantage that would somehow justify treating "you regular people" differently or suggest that there's some level of insight that's just off-limits to everyone else.

Quincy:

So, after a day that’s just absolutely draining, I sometimes manage to force myself to slow down—you know, light a candle, settle in, and try to find some peace through meditation. Some days it works beautifully, and other times? Not so much. There are even those nights where I don't even bother trying because my brain is just too scattered and restless to sit still. But then there are those rare, perfect moments where I don't have to push at all; it just happens spontaneously. Honestly, those are the best moments of all.

That’s totally fine—really, there’s nothing wrong with that approach. Honestly, I’d much rather someone try to lower their stress levels through meditation than not bother at all. It's better than nothing, right? But at the same time, I can't help but feel like it's a bit of a missed opportunity if you aren't practicing that mindfulness while you're actually at work. If you could catch the stress before it even takes root during the workday, you'd be heading home feeling completely unburdened. You wouldn't just be "managing" the pressure—you'd be avoiding the buildup entirely. That way, you could actually show up for your life at home and give your full attention to whatever matters most, instead of being stuck constantly relying on how well a specific "stress reduction" technique worked for you later in the evening.

I’m telling you this from my own personal experience—and trust me, I work in one of the most high-pressure industries out there today. Believe me when I say that very little compares to the sheer stress of being forced to produce something "creative" on an impossibly tight deadline. Having to whip up a design by "tomorrow morning" and then being held responsible for how it actually performs in the market? That is a genuine pain in the ass.

Quincy:

So, what now? Am I supposed to just sit around waiting for some perfect, "ideal" moment to strike? Honestly, I’ve just started tailoring my practice to fit my own life—making things work for me rather than fighting against them. And you know what? After doing some "targeted" meditation, I actually feel this deep sense of peace; my mind is just... quiet. Sometimes it even feels more profound than when I just dive into it spontaneously. I don't really have any grand, profound wisdom to drop on anyone here. I've just come to accept that what works for me might not work for someone else at all—and that’s perfectly okay. It goes both ways, really.

Well, nothing much to say there... 🙂

Look, I’m not coming out here saying anyone needs to drop their habits, overhaul their lifestyle, or make excuses because of what I have to say. I’m just offering a different perspective—strictly my own personal take. I’m not out here peddling an ideology, a specific technique, or some rigid belief system... I don't see myself as someone who is "fixing" anyone, nor do I believe people actually *need* fixing.

If someone happens to stumble upon something interesting in my words—maybe they tuck a little thought away just as a "curiosity" or a "possibility"—well, then if I happen to be right, that person will likely find those ideas resurfacing at just the right moment. It'll hit them when those ideas offer a cleaner, simpler way to make sense of their own "life drama" than whatever old interpretations they were clinging to before.

On the flip side, if I’ve just rambled on through a heap of nonsense, that nonsense won't offer any better explanations for anything. In that case, and quite rightfully so, nobody will even bother remembering the junk I wrote about two months down the road. That’s just how I see things. 🙂

In my experience, people react to my views in all sorts of ways; some are just genuinely curious, while others can get pretty prickly. Usually, that tension kicks in when people sense there might be some truth to what I'm saying. It’s like if you tried to convince someone that the Earth is shaped like a pyramid—which is obviously absurd—they’d probably just laugh it off. They wouldn't feel the need to push back with a question like:

Quincy:

Have you ever stopped to wonder who I am to be lecturing anyone else?

Typically, the folks reacting to my thoughts fall into two camps: those who are already doubting the very same things I am, or those who are terrified of the possibility that I might actually be right. The latter group tends to resort to belittling or provocation, and honestly, I always enjoy giving them a taste of their own medicine—sometimes even a bit more.

But at the end of the day, I walk away having learned something from both groups. Whether they decide to learn something themselves is entirely up to them. I'm not here to be anyone's teacher... I'm primarily here to learn something for myself.

Meditation is just one tool in the kit for managing stress. However, in those moments when I’m feeling overwhelmed, I tend to prefer—well, doing nothing at all. I just let the stress wash over me and pass on its own. Stress is chaotic and loud... whereas meditation is gentle... quiet. If I feel like meditation might actually help, I’ll give it a shot. In most cases, it does help, at least as a kind of first aid. But that isn't my "true" meditation; it’s more of a functional, targeted approach that I only turn to during actual crises. It’s much like how I never take tranquilizers; this serves as my substitute

That is precisely why I talk about various different types of meditation. That is why I can't give you a single, definitive definition of what meditation is. And that is why I gave you the same warning

Ultimately, a meditative state should be a person's natural baseline, just as excitement is a natural state
You mention that it's a shame not to meditate at work. For me, in most instances, I actually manage to do it—especially after gaining a few years of experience under my belt, once you learn how to carry yourself in a professional environment and stop reacting so intensely to every little thing. But that is a skill that must be learned, or at least, it was something I personally had to struggle to master
Shaman, for me, there are no magic formulas... It would be wonderful if there were a technique you knew would provide instant relief every single time. But there isn't. There is no universal recipe. What works for me today might be completely useless tomorrow

The only thing I truly strive for is to remain at peace, no matter what happens. And I am genuinely grateful whenever I manage to sustain that for a few days in a row

Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."

Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.

Quincy:

what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one.

Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.

Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.

And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.

So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?

Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.

It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?

------------------

And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂

Hmm. I don't think I agree with that. In my view, we can only truly be tolerant toward things that bother us, offend us, or feel unacceptable.

Because, if we are already fine with something, then we aren't actually being tolerant... we just accept it as it is. So, I guess you only really exercise tolerance when someone or something doesn't deserve it. 😉

Ryan Wood98 said:Hmm. I don't think I agree with that. In my view, we can only truly be tolerant toward things that bother us, offend us, or feel unacceptable.

Because, if we are already fine with something, then we aren't actually being tolerant... we just accept it as it is. So, I guess you only really exercise tolerance when someone or something doesn't deserve it. 😉

Look, I'm sorry, but that isn't what tolerance actually means. That's just being a total Dummy.

Tolerance is basically when we share an office and you’re constantly blasting NPR. Honestly, that kind of stuff just gets under my skin—it really does—but for the most part, I’m cool with it. I’ll let it slide. But... there’s going to come a day when I just can't deal with it anymore, and I’m going to ask you to turn it off. If you don't... well, my tolerance vanishes instantly. It’s pretty simple: if you ignore the request, you’ve essentially disrespected the grace I've been giving you this whole time.

To me, tolerance isn't just some vague concept—it’s about accepting people's differences, their boundaries, and the choices they make. But here’s the catch: it only really works if there’s a mutual understanding—if people actually recognize and respect the grace you're extending to them. Because let's be honest, if I'm out here being patient and accommodating toward some Dummy who doesn't give a damn about respecting that very same tolerance... well, then I'm just being a Dummy myself.

Quentin:

Look, if we’re already cool with something—if it’s just part of our normal baseline—then we aren't actually being "tolerant." We’re just existing. It’s like when you don't even blink at a certain rule because it makes sense to you; there's no effort involved, so there's no virtue in it. In my mind, true tolerance only really kicks in when we encounter something we *don't* agree with, or something that feels fundamentally undeserved. That’s the only time we actually have the opportunity to flex that muscle—when we choose to be accepting despite the fact that, on paper, we shouldn't be. 😉

Like I was saying before—tolerance really has to be a two-way street. If it isn't—if that balance is off—then you’re basically just handing someone a free pass to walk all over you and play you for a fool.

Edward Flores4 said:Look, I'm sorry, but that isn't what tolerance actually means. That's just being a total Dummy.

Tolerance is basically when we share an office and you’re constantly blasting NPR. Honestly, that kind of stuff just gets under my skin—it really does—but for the most part, I’m cool with it. I’ll let it slide. But... there’s going to come a day when I just can't deal with it anymore, and I’m going to ask you to turn it off. If you don't... well, my tolerance vanishes instantly. It’s pretty simple: if you ignore the request, you’ve essentially disrespected the grace I've been giving you this whole time.

To me, tolerance isn't just some vague concept—it’s about accepting people's differences, their boundaries, and the choices they make. But here’s the catch: it only really works if there’s a mutual understanding—if people actually recognize and respect the grace you're extending to them. Because let's be honest, if I'm out here being patient and accommodating toward some Dummy who doesn't give a damn about respecting that very same tolerance... well, then I'm just being a Dummy myself.

Quentin:

Look, if we’re already cool with something—if it’s just part of our normal baseline—then we aren't actually being "tolerant." We’re just existing. It’s like when you don't even blink at a certain rule because it makes sense to you; there's no effort involved, so there's no virtue in it. In my mind, true tolerance only really kicks in when we encounter something we *don't* agree with, or something that feels fundamentally undeserved. That’s the only time we actually have the opportunity to flex that muscle—when we choose to be accepting despite the fact that, on paper, we shouldn't be. 😉

Like I was saying before—tolerance really has to be a two-way street. If it isn't—if that balance is off—then you’re basically just handing someone a free pass to walk all over you and play you for a fool.

Whether you happen to be a Dummy or not, I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with whether you are being tolerant.

If you won't let a colleague listen to NPR, then maybe you aren't being tolerant. At least not in that specific moment. You might have been perfectly tolerant for the past year, but in that particular instance, perhaps you weren't.

As for whether you've stopped being a Dummy, or if you never were one to begin with—well, I guess that's a completely different matter.

wiredbear2 said:Uh… 🙂 Honestly, you haven't. I don't think you're writing nonsense at all. While I find myself agreeing with the vast majority of your posts, I always love finding those specific points where we might hold differing perspectives. Thank you for such an exhaustive opening to your post; I truly have nothing to add to it 😉

Meditation is just one tool in the kit for managing stress. However, in those moments when I’m feeling overwhelmed, I tend to prefer—well, doing nothing at all. I just let the stress wash over me and pass on its own. Stress is chaotic and loud... whereas meditation is gentle... quiet. If I feel like meditation might actually help, I’ll give it a shot. In most cases, it does help, at least as a kind of first aid. But that isn't my "true" meditation; it’s more of a functional, targeted approach that I only turn to during actual crises. It’s much like how I never take tranquilizers; this serves as my substitute

That is precisely why I talk about various different types of meditation. That is why I can't give you a single, definitive definition of what meditation is. And that is why I gave you the same warning

Ultimately, a meditative state should be a person's natural baseline, just as excitement is a natural state
You mention that it's a shame not to meditate at work. For me, in most instances, I actually manage to do it—especially after gaining a few years of experience under my belt, once you learn how to carry yourself in a professional environment and stop reacting so intensely to every little thing. But that is a skill that must be learned, or at least, it was something I personally had to struggle to master
Shaman, for me, there are no magic formulas... It would be wonderful if there were a technique you knew would provide instant relief every single time. But there isn't. There is no universal recipe. What works for me today might be completely useless tomorrow

The only thing I truly strive for is to remain at peace, no matter what happens. And I am genuinely grateful whenever I manage to sustain that for a few days in a row

See, meditation is really about perception. That kind of meditative awareness doesn't actually create stress. It isn't some wild Science Fiction concept like people tend to think it is. Let me lay it out for you:

- You know you have to head into the office because, let's face it, you need the paycheck to survive.
- Since you already have to be there for eight hours... it's just plain illogical to spend that time being miserable.
- Nobody likes working with high-strung people... and stressed-out employees are usually the first ones getting let go.
- You get paid to perform, but stress kills your productivity—and low productivity leads to being fired.
- If you truly can't stand the thought of working... then quit and stay home.
- But if you decide to show up and work—then do it. Do it without the unnecessary stress, knowing full well that this was your choice, and realizing there's zero point in stressing over something you opted into yourself.

I know you'll probably tell me you already get all this—and I believe you do—but the reality is that about 80% of people live in a constant state of frustration and irritation. They're annoyed by the boss, their coworkers, the job itself, the low pay, the fact that a colleague just bought a brand new Tesla, or how the secretary gets all those perks despite barely doing a lick of work...

It seems like people actually go out of their way to invent problems just to trigger stress, mostly because they've become addicted to it. Now, it's perfectly natural to feel stressed when something catches you off guard—something totally unexpected. But building up tension at a job where you know exactly what to expect? That takes a real, conscious effort.

A lot of people even use stress as a fuel source... they procrastinate until the final five minutes before a deadline. Then the "panic" sets in, they scramble to finish everything at the last second, and they usually walk away bragging about how they pulled it off under pressure. They rarely stop to think about the massive toll that constant adrenaline-chasing takes on them.

In other words... meditation is simply knowing exactly WHAT you are doing and WHY you are doing it. When you have that clarity, you lose all the wasted effort, the pointless complaining, the frustrations, the disappointments, and the stress.

Simple as that.... at least when we're talking about work.

Quentin:

The only thing I'm really aiming for is to stay peaceful, no matter what. And I feel so grateful whenever I actually manage to pull that off for a few days in a row.

Well, you'll be perfectly peaceful once you're dead... until then, try to at least have a little fun.😉

Ryan Wood98 said:Whether you happen to be a Dummy or not, I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with whether you are being tolerant.

If you won't let a colleague listen to NPR, then maybe you aren't being tolerant. At least not in that specific moment. You might have been perfectly tolerant for the past year, but in that particular instance, perhaps you weren't.

As for whether you've stopped being a Dummy, or if you never were one to begin with—well, I guess that's a completely different matter.

Fine. Then I guess I’m just not tolerant. 😁
Call it whatever you want... I believe in reciprocal tolerance. In my view, people who take advantage of someone else's patience should be checked every single time they try it. Also... those folks who are *always* willing to put up with everything? They should just be left to live alongside the ones who don't respect boundaries—since they're clearly "made for each other"—so that everyone else can enjoy some peace and quiet.

No one is obligated to tolerate stupidity or bad manners, and everyone should have to deal with the fallout of their own actions. If someone is acting like a total Dummy, you have to call them out on it—otherwise, you're just being a hypocrite. When a Dummy doesn't realize they're exploiting someone's kindness, you have to make it clear. And if they don't get it through words, then you show them through your actions. Once you stop playing along, even the densest person might finally see the light. 🙂

As for me... feel free to be endlessly tolerant of everything. It's your life. 😉

Edward Flores4 said:See, meditation is really about perception. That kind of meditative awareness doesn't actually create stress. It isn't some wild Science Fiction concept like people tend to think it is. Let me lay it out for you:

- You know you have to head into the office because, let's face it, you need the paycheck to survive.
- Since you already have to be there for eight hours... it's just plain illogical to spend that time being miserable.
- Nobody likes working with high-strung people... and stressed-out employees are usually the first ones getting let go.
- You get paid to perform, but stress kills your productivity—and low productivity leads to being fired.
- If you truly can't stand the thought of working... then quit and stay home.
- But if you decide to show up and work—then do it. Do it without the unnecessary stress, knowing full well that this was your choice, and realizing there's zero point in stressing over something you opted into yourself.

I know you'll probably tell me you already get all this—and I believe you do—but the reality is that about 80% of people live in a constant state of frustration and irritation. They're annoyed by the boss, their coworkers, the job itself, the low pay, the fact that a colleague just bought a brand new Tesla, or how the secretary gets all those perks despite barely doing a lick of work...

It seems like people actually go out of their way to invent problems just to trigger stress, mostly because they've become addicted to it. Now, it's perfectly natural to feel stressed when something catches you off guard—something totally unexpected. But building up tension at a job where you know exactly what to expect? That takes a real, conscious effort.

A lot of people even use stress as a fuel source... they procrastinate until the final five minutes before a deadline. Then the "panic" sets in, they scramble to finish everything at the last second, and they usually walk away bragging about how they pulled it off under pressure. They rarely stop to think about the massive toll that constant adrenaline-chasing takes on them.

In other words... meditation is simply knowing exactly WHAT you are doing and WHY you are doing it. When you have that clarity, you lose all the wasted effort, the pointless complaining, the frustrations, the disappointments, and the stress.

Simple as that.... at least when we're talking about work.

Quentin:

The only thing I'm really aiming for is to stay peaceful, no matter what. And I feel so grateful whenever I actually manage to pull that off for a few days in a row.

Well, you'll be perfectly peaceful once you're dead... until then, try to at least have a little fun.😉

Do you really believe that inner peace and having fun are mutually exclusive?

Shaman, I'm talking about a "deep" kind of tranquility, the sort that isn't tethered to whatever is happening in the world around you.
And... I don't see life and death as two separate things. They are equally vital parts of the same whole 😉

I forgot to mention, of course, that this applies perfectly to workplace stress as well. 🙂
People have this tendency to multiply their own unnecessary misery just because they can.

wiredbear2 said:Do you really believe that inner peace and having fun are mutually exclusive?

Shaman, I'm talking about a "deep" kind of tranquility, the sort that isn't tethered to whatever is happening in the world around you.
And... I don't see life and death as two separate things. They are equally vital parts of the same whole 😉

I forgot to mention, of course, that this applies perfectly to workplace stress as well. 🙂
People have this tendency to multiply their own unnecessary misery just because they can.

Peace—even just the quiet moments at night—is really the bedrock of everything we do. It’s not just some separate thing you find between tasks; it’s actually woven right into the fabric of every action we take and every bit of fun we have. Without that stillness to ground us, nothing else really holds up.

Quentin:

Edward Flores4, I’m telling you—I’m talking about that "deep" kind of peace. And I don't mean the kind that depends on everything around you being perfect or quiet. It’s got nothing to do with what's happening on the outside. I don't really see a way to separate life from death—to me, they’re just two sides of the same coin. You can't really have one without the other, right? They both carry the same kind of weight. 😉

I honestly don't quite get this whole obsession with finding "deep" inner peace... I’ve always been a bit more of an extrovert, to be honest—I definitely need that social energy to feel like myself. 😁

I think I get where you're coming from—I really do—but I can guarantee you right now that this peace you’re talking about is actually present everywhere, all the time. It doesn't depend on you; rather, it's about how you relate to it. Saying you "have" peace or don't is a bit of a flawed way to put it... it’s not like something you can just possess, and honestly, why even "strive" for it? What's the point of chasing something you can't exactly run away from in the first place? At the end of the day, we're all already there. 😉

That sense of "peace" isn't something you fight for—it’s just something you have to accept. Honestly, the people who spend all their energy struggling against it are usually just running away from that very stillness. Now, I’m definitely not saying that’s what you're doing here, but in my experience, that’s where the disconnect usually happens.

Quentin:

It feels like people have this weird, almost instinctive drive to take their own frustrations and just... multiply them—spreading that negativity around far more than anyone actually needs. It’s like they take a tiny spark of discontent and work overtime to turn it into a full-blown bonfire, dragging everyone else into the heat for no real reason.

It’s funny how we work—people tend to wrap their entire identity around their struggles. Instead of seeing their problems as just temporary hurdles, they start viewing them as the very thing that defines them. It becomes their whole personality—the one thing that makes them feel "different" or special compared to everyone else.

Here’s the thing—we all carry around these lofty ideas of who we want to be, but if I’m being honest, most of the time we don't even believe in them ourselves. We struggle to find that conviction. But our problems? Man, we believe in those with everything we've got. We cling to them. These issues become these massive, heavy pillars in our lives—things that feel like they define our entire existence. It’s almost like we use this messy, composite picture of our struggles as the primary building blocks for our identity. When it comes to our problems, there isn't a shred of doubt; they feel more real than our actual potential.

In other words—if you really think about it—what most people label as their "ego" is actually just a conscious narrative they've built around their own specific set of life struggles and baggage. Because of that, the whole concept of "getting rid of your ego" is actually a pretty dangerous idea—especially when people don't truly grasp what they’re actually dealing with in the first place. You see it all the time: someone decides they've reached this level of enlightenment, and suddenly they're turning around and lecturing everyone else, pointing fingers and telling people, "Oh, you're just acting out because your ego is running the show," or suggesting that everyone else needs to "do the work" to fix themselves. It’s almost funny, in a dark sort of way—they genuinely believe they’ve mastered the complexity of the situation, convinced that they are deeply aware of the "ego problem" and are working harder than anyone else to overcome it.

It’s kind of a bummer, really—time doesn't actually fix things; it just turns up the volume on all those underlying issues and ends up giving people an even bigger ego to work with.

Nah, that’s exactly where you'll find the answer to the question:
Why is it that people seem to go out of their way to make life as difficult as possible for themselves? It’s one of those things you catch yourself wondering about when you’re watching someone trip over their own feet—metaphorically speaking, of course—and you just have to shake your head. I mean, think about it. We all want stability, right? We want things to run smoothly, like a well-oiled machine or a perfectly timed flight from JFK to LAX. But instead, we see people constantly building their own obstacles. It’s almost like they’re subconsciously seeking out the friction. Maybe it’s a bit of self-sabotage rooted in deep-seated habits, or perhaps it’s that weird human tendency to mistake chaos for "living life to the fullest." Some people feel more comfortable in the middle of a storm than they do in the calm, because the calm feels... I don't know, boring? Or maybe even unsafe? It’s like if everything is going too well, they’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so they might as well drop it themselves to get the anxiety over with. It’s a strange loop to be stuck in—creating the very stress you're trying to escape.

It’s because it gives them this false, yet incredibly potent, sense of individuality. It isn't just that—it's that they can deflect any bit of criticism by pointing to their own specific struggles, using those personal hurdles to justify everything they do while simultaneously framing themselves as being uniquely special and one-of-a-kind.

It feels like I’m the only one dealing with this specific headache—honestly, it seems like nobody else has to deal with the exact kind of mess I'm stuck with right now. 😍 Must be nice for you—you don't have half the headaches I'm dealing with right now. 😬Honestly, you don't even realize how much your ego is running the show... whereas I’m actually putting in the work to fix mine 🤣

Anyway... most people actually cling to their problems—they don't really want to solve them. It’s because, deep down in the subconscious, there's this feeling that those struggles are the only things making them truly unique. Plus, without our little neuroses, we wouldn't really have anything to differentiate ourselves from one another. So, yeah... that's just how it goes.

For me, the best kind of meditation happens when I actually notice something—which is rare, since my visual perception isn't exactly sharp

Today, I caught something

Someone was posting on the forum about getting lost in thought... just staring at something and dwelling on how things are right NOW.. specifically as 🥳 passes by

Well, I stumbled upon something entirely by accident today, and it sparked this sudden burst of creativity...
And it’s only just hitting me that I actually saw it....

I suppose I'll know I've made progress once I realize I've noticed it—when I'm constantly perceiving the present moment....
And I am doing that now, though in a different way

(The self-proclaimed enlightened types would probably try to tell me when I've finally "reached it," but honestly? They wouldn't have a clue)

Besides, this has nothing to do with reaching transcendence after a long day of lotus positions; on that point, I agree with Edward Flores4

wiredbear2 said:Do you really believe that inner peace and having fun are mutually exclusive?

Shaman, I'm talking about a "deep" kind of tranquility, the sort that isn't tethered to whatever is happening in the world around you.
And... I don't see life and death as two separate things. They are equally vital parts of the same whole 😉

I forgot to mention, of course, that this applies perfectly to workplace stress as well. 🙂
People have this tendency to multiply their own unnecessary misery just because they can.

For me, that deep sense of peace hits when I'm just sitting in a local coffee shop, passing drinks around with friends.

Or even just hearing a certain song that gives me goosebumps... whereas silence offers nothing, and constant music just leaves me feeling saturated and frustrated.

Peace, to my mind, is a moment you surrender to, rather than something you try to manufacture.
It doesn't occur to me to seek peace in the sense of total stillness...
If that were the case, we should all be happy to remain paralyzed, tucked away in some sterile hospital room where everything is white and birds are chirping outside. That would be it.

Feeling a bit morbid this morning, please excuse me.🙂

coastalskipper92 said:For me, the best kind of meditation happens when I actually notice something—which is rare, since my visual perception isn't exactly sharp

Today, I caught something

Someone was posting on the forum about getting lost in thought... just staring at something and dwelling on how things are right NOW.. specifically as 🥳 passes by

Well, I stumbled upon something entirely by accident today, and it sparked this sudden burst of creativity...
And it’s only just hitting me that I actually saw it....

I suppose I'll know I've made progress once I realize I've noticed it—when I'm constantly perceiving the present moment....
And I am doing that now, though in a different way

(The self-proclaimed enlightened types would probably try to tell me when I've finally "reached it," but honestly? They wouldn't have a clue)

Besides, this has nothing to do with reaching transcendence after a long day of lotus positions; on that point, I agree with Edward Flores4

It sounds like you experienced a meditative state triggered by something in your environment—essentially, it was your own perception of it. That’s why creative work is such a powerful tool; it fosters those specific states where time simply seems to stand still, and you find yourself pouring your entire being into whatever you are creating.

Meditation, when practiced as a disciplined exercise for concentration and mental clarity through "emptiness," is a different beast entirely. It doesn't usually arrive as spontaneously as it does during a flow state in creative work, and it requires a much higher level of discipline to achieve...

Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."

Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.

Quincy:

what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one.

Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.

Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.

And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.

So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?

Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.

It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?

------------------

And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂

Meditation is pure bliss, man. It’s like the ultimate way to smooth out all those messy emotions we carry around. I mean, if you're actually trying to become a Yogi Berra type, you can't be lugging around a bunch of heavy, negative feelings, right? That just doesn't work. At the end of the day, meditation leads you straight to that absolute state of pure satisfaction—the kind of thing people call Nirvana.

I guess you could break meditation down into three main stages:

Mastering the mental chatter. I guess you could say it's about finally getting a handle on all those racing thoughts that just won't quit. It’s a process, honestly—not something you just snap your fingers and fix overnight. You have to actually work at it, which sounds exhausting, right? But yeah, that's the goal.
So, I was thinking about this whole thing—this idea of just hyper-focusing on one single object at a time. You know, that intense concentration stuff people always drone on about? It’s funny, because I feel like most of us spend our entire lives jumping from one distraction to the next like a caffeinated squirrel, and then we wonder why we can't get anything done. I guess what I mean is, there's this massive difference between just looking at something and actually *concentrating* on it. It sounds simple, right? Just pick a point and stay there. But man, it’s harder than it looks. My brain is constantly pulling me in a thousand different directions. One minute I'm trying to focus, and the next, I'm spiraling down some random rabbit hole about why everything in the US feels so loud lately. Maybe it’s just me, though. Maybe I'm just wired to be a bit scattered. But I've been trying to practice this singular focus, and honestly, it's exhausting. It’s like trying to hold a heavy weight at arm's length without letting it drop. You think you've got it under control, and then—bam—your mind wanders to what you want for dinner or some random argument you had three years ago, and the whole thing falls apart. It’s a weird struggle. We live in a world that basically pays us to be distracted, so trying to hone in on just one thing feels almost like an act of rebellion sometimes. I don't know. I might be overthinking it. But yeah, focusing on one thing... it's a trip.
3. And finally, just total oneness with the object itself.

I guess you could say that through meditation, we finally start peeling back the layers of Maya—that whole illusionary mess we call reality—and that’s when the real joy kicks in. It’s not just some random happy feeling, either. A true practitioner is always hitting these new levels of bliss, though I suppose that only happens once you’ve put in the actual work and reached a higher state of devotion. You can't just sit there; you have to commit. Anyway, let's just soak in the Great Plains and enjoy the ride!

Look, meditation isn't some kind of task you just check off a to-do list. You can't just sit there white-knuckling it, thinking, "Okay, I am definitely meditating right now!" That’s not how it works at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can't force it through sheer willpower. It’s more like... I don't know, a blessing? Like a reward that just sort of lands on you when you aren't even looking for it. It's not something you grab by the throat.

Look, if you actually want to get anywhere with meditation, you can't just sit down on a cushion and expect magic to happen. It’s not like that. You need serious prep work—like, actual sweat, grit, and endless hard work. I guess you could say it's all about the grind before you even close your eyes.

Look, people don't meditate just so they can run their mouths about what they felt during a session, like they’re trying to show off or something. That's just ego tripping. Meditation is supposed to be a tool—an actual way to find yourself or reach self-realization. It's about the experience itself! We're talking about an experience that leads to objective truth, you know? I guess some people just miss the point entirely.

Edward Flores4 said:Peace—even just the quiet moments at night—is really the bedrock of everything we do. It’s not just some separate thing you find between tasks; it’s actually woven right into the fabric of every action we take and every bit of fun we have. Without that stillness to ground us, nothing else really holds up.

Quentin:

Edward Flores4, I’m telling you—I’m talking about that "deep" kind of peace. And I don't mean the kind that depends on everything around you being perfect or quiet. It’s got nothing to do with what's happening on the outside. I don't really see a way to separate life from death—to me, they’re just two sides of the same coin. You can't really have one without the other, right? They both carry the same kind of weight. 😉

I honestly don't quite get this whole obsession with finding "deep" inner peace... I’ve always been a bit more of an extrovert, to be honest—I definitely need that social energy to feel like myself. 😁

I think I get where you're coming from—I really do—but I can guarantee you right now that this peace you’re talking about is actually present everywhere, all the time. It doesn't depend on you; rather, it's about how you relate to it. Saying you "have" peace or don't is a bit of a flawed way to put it... it’s not like something you can just possess, and honestly, why even "strive" for it? What's the point of chasing something you can't exactly run away from in the first place? At the end of the day, we're all already there. 😉

That sense of "peace" isn't something you fight for—it’s just something you have to accept. Honestly, the people who spend all their energy struggling against it are usually just running away from that very stillness. Now, I’m definitely not saying that’s what you're doing here, but in my experience, that’s where the disconnect usually happens.

Quentin:

It feels like people have this weird, almost instinctive drive to take their own frustrations and just... multiply them—spreading that negativity around far more than anyone actually needs. It’s like they take a tiny spark of discontent and work overtime to turn it into a full-blown bonfire, dragging everyone else into the heat for no real reason.

It’s funny how we work—people tend to wrap their entire identity around their struggles. Instead of seeing their problems as just temporary hurdles, they start viewing them as the very thing that defines them. It becomes their whole personality—the one thing that makes them feel "different" or special compared to everyone else.

Here’s the thing—we all carry around these lofty ideas of who we want to be, but if I’m being honest, most of the time we don't even believe in them ourselves. We struggle to find that conviction. But our problems? Man, we believe in those with everything we've got. We cling to them. These issues become these massive, heavy pillars in our lives—things that feel like they define our entire existence. It’s almost like we use this messy, composite picture of our struggles as the primary building blocks for our identity. When it comes to our problems, there isn't a shred of doubt; they feel more real than our actual potential.

In other words—if you really think about it—what most people label as their "ego" is actually just a conscious narrative they've built around their own specific set of life struggles and baggage. Because of that, the whole concept of "getting rid of your ego" is actually a pretty dangerous idea—especially when people don't truly grasp what they’re actually dealing with in the first place. You see it all the time: someone decides they've reached this level of enlightenment, and suddenly they're turning around and lecturing everyone else, pointing fingers and telling people, "Oh, you're just acting out because your ego is running the show," or suggesting that everyone else needs to "do the work" to fix themselves. It’s almost funny, in a dark sort of way—they genuinely believe they’ve mastered the complexity of the situation, convinced that they are deeply aware of the "ego problem" and are working harder than anyone else to overcome it.

It’s kind of a bummer, really—time doesn't actually fix things; it just turns up the volume on all those underlying issues and ends up giving people an even bigger ego to work with.

Nah, that’s exactly where you'll find the answer to the question:
Why is it that people seem to go out of their way to make life as difficult as possible for themselves? It’s one of those things you catch yourself wondering about when you’re watching someone trip over their own feet—metaphorically speaking, of course—and you just have to shake your head. I mean, think about it. We all want stability, right? We want things to run smoothly, like a well-oiled machine or a perfectly timed flight from JFK to LAX. But instead, we see people constantly building their own obstacles. It’s almost like they’re subconsciously seeking out the friction. Maybe it’s a bit of self-sabotage rooted in deep-seated habits, or perhaps it’s that weird human tendency to mistake chaos for "living life to the fullest." Some people feel more comfortable in the middle of a storm than they do in the calm, because the calm feels... I don't know, boring? Or maybe even unsafe? It’s like if everything is going too well, they’re just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so they might as well drop it themselves to get the anxiety over with. It’s a strange loop to be stuck in—creating the very stress you're trying to escape.

It’s because it gives them this false, yet incredibly potent, sense of individuality. It isn't just that—it's that they can deflect any bit of criticism by pointing to their own specific struggles, using those personal hurdles to justify everything they do while simultaneously framing themselves as being uniquely special and one-of-a-kind.

It feels like I’m the only one dealing with this specific headache—honestly, it seems like nobody else has to deal with the exact kind of mess I'm stuck with right now. 😍 Must be nice for you—you don't have half the headaches I'm dealing with right now. 😬Honestly, you don't even realize how much your ego is running the show... whereas I’m actually putting in the work to fix mine 🤣

Anyway... most people actually cling to their problems—they don't really want to solve them. It’s because, deep down in the subconscious, there's this feeling that those struggles are the only things making them truly unique. Plus, without our little neuroses, we wouldn't really have anything to differentiate ourselves from one another. So, yeah... that's just how it goes.

The big-P Peace doesn't care about action or reaction; it basically exists outside of all that cosmic, action-oriented chaos.🙂

It honestly doesn't matter if you're an extrovert or an introvert. Peace is your true nature, and you can choose to become aware of it whenever you want—for a fleeting moment, or maybe even forever!

People pass away, but most of them don't do it in Peace. 🙂)))))) Passing away in Peace actually has a specific name—Ascension! It's the ultimate level of self-realization. You can strive for Peace and you "can have it," meaning you can merge with Peace (and no, I don't mean a wife named Peace, haha).

Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."

Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.

Quincy:

what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one.

Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.

Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.

And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.

So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?

Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.

It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?

------------------

And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂

I mean, seriously—since the beginning of time, how many people have actually found the answer to the question: who is the one controlling the controller?

Edward Flores4 said:Exactly. Meditation is basically a constant resistance against the hypnosis that most people spend their entire lives stuck in. It’s this hypnotic state—whether they’re inducing it themselves or just falling under the spell of some social group, a religion, a cult, a guru, a politician, an ideology, or even just the mass media.

Meditation is pure perception—stripped of all ambition, stripped of any kind of measurement (you know, that habit of using "metrics" as the foundation for all supposed "spiritual growth" or "progress"), and stripped of that separation between the thinker and the thought. When someone splits themselves into the thought and the thinker, and then that thinker tries to control the thoughts... well, they just end up in a state of total paralysis. That isn't meditation at all.

So, what happened to free will!?
Honestly, neither you nor Krishnamurti actually know anything about this supposed "controller".

If you ask me, the controller represents the soul or the ego, whereas the thing doing the controlling? That’s just a tiny fragment of reality itself.

placidharbor7 said:I mean, seriously—since the beginning of time, how many people have actually found the answer to the question: who is the one controlling the controller?

The Riddle of the Sphinx

Honestly, I think only a complete idiot would try to pin down an answer to that—which is pretty much why neither Krishnamurti nor myself ever bothered attempting it in the first place.

Sometimes the question itself is the only answer you're going to get. But lately, I've been getting really into the idea of feedback loops and circles, so I’ll leave it up to you to tackle it:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Walter Carter2 said:The big-P Peace doesn't care about action or reaction; it basically exists outside of all that cosmic, action-oriented chaos.🙂

It honestly doesn't matter if you're an extrovert or an introvert. Peace is your true nature, and you can choose to become aware of it whenever you want—for a fleeting moment, or maybe even forever!

People pass away, but most of them don't do it in Peace. 🙂)))))) Passing away in Peace actually has a specific name—Ascension! It's the ultimate level of self-realization. You can strive for Peace and you "can have it," meaning you can merge with Peace (and no, I don't mean a wife named Peace, haha).

My heart truly goes out to you.😉>

Edward Flores4 said:The Riddle of the Sphinx

Honestly, I think only a complete idiot would try to pin down an answer to that—which is pretty much why neither Krishnamurti nor myself ever bothered attempting it in the first place.

Sometimes the question itself is the only answer you're going to get. But lately, I've been getting really into the idea of feedback loops and circles, so I’ll leave it up to you to tackle it:

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

These "meditation debates" are nothing more than endless arguments, and they’ll stay that way as long as people refuse to call out pure stupidity when they see it, truth seeker.