I haven't actually read Krishnamurthi, yet both of your quotes offer a completely different interpretation of Krishnamurthi and meditation compared to my own.
Everyone sees what they want to see, I suppose.
Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.
Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."
Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.
Quincy:| what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one. |
Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.
Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.
And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.
So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?
Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.
It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?
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And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂
Starting from that very first sentence, I find myself agreeing with shamantrixx.
It so "annoys" me when, if I happen to bring up a "problem" during a discussion on spirituality, everyone suddenly tries to comfort me... telling me that I'll grow through it and then won't have "problems" anymore.
That I'll just bask in eternal light and peace.
How lovely.
And all because the ego feels the need to "write off" problems simply because they don't fit within the concept of Zen.
shamantrixx... you once wrote to me regarding one of my little rants 😂 about how it isn't necessarily harder to be right... that change is instantaneous...
It wasn't that for me... we aren't the same...
I observed it for a while, much like an exotic plant 😂 and I didn't quite have the space to find a place for it just yet.
I have to explain this using metaphors 😍
Edward Flores4 said:Anyone who thinks meditation is going to "smooth out" human emotions—or that it eventually leads to some kind of constant bliss or comfort—clearly hasn't a clue what they're talking about.
Besides... why do you assume only an agitated person can be verbally aggressive? Tolerance isn't a free pass; it’s something you earn. It is perfectly normal, even productive, to withhold tolerance from someone who hasn't earned it. Doing that doesn't require being upset—quite the opposite, actually. It requires calmness, calculation, and resolve. You're completely conflating "political correctness" with "spirituality."
Human stupidity... while it can be fascinating and deeply annoying at the same time, it should only rattle those who aren't expecting to run into it. If you go into the day expecting stupidity, its appearance won't shake you—just like you don't get upset when the sun sets in the evening after having expected it to rise in the morning.
Quincy:| what does meditation mean to you? Because clearly, your definition is a far cry from the standard one. |
Krishnamurti describes the problem of meditation perfectly, and it aligns exactly with my own view of the matter.
Meditation is a very complex business. The Word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure.
The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement.
The Greeks were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And The Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. They didn’t exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare ‘what is’, ‘what should be’, the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.
And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.
So the question is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of The Systems of meditation , whether The Japanese , and The hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller?
Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one’s thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. SoThey’ve essentially created this psychological split between the one doing the thinking and the thoughts themselves. Because of that, the thinker detaches himself from the actual process of thinking—which leads to this idea that during meditation, there’s some sort of "controller" stepping in to manage and quiet down the thoughts.
It creates this fundamental divide between the controller and what is being controlled. Makes sense, right? But here’s the kicker: who actually *is* the controller? Honestly, hardly anyone ever stops to ask that.
Most people are just thrilled to dive into meditation because they’re chasing a specific destination—you know, things like sudden illumination, total enlightenment, a quieted brain, or just some much-needed peace of mind. But very, very few people actually take a moment to inquire: who is this controller I'm trying to use?
------------------
And hey, if there’s anything else that still feels a bit fuzzy... just ask. 🙂
To me, meditation is simply self-knowledge about self-knowledge. Is that not the essence of it? 😂😍
If meditation is meant to be the path toward realization, then isn't realization itself a bit of a phantom? A ghost we chase? It feels as though we’ve simply projected the goal into some distant future, measuring a destination that doesn't actually exist in the present.
Jeremy Palmer said:So, what exactly do you think meditation creates?
A truly steady mind—one rooted deeply in its own being—remains calm regardless of what’s happening around it. It doesn't get to pick and choose when to be verbally aggressive and when to be tolerant; it stays consistent through thick and thin. What you're describing sounds more like typical human reactivity. We tend to cloud our judgment with selectivity, pre-judging every situation before it even unfolds. We often convince ourselves we have some sort of right to lash out at others just because, in our opinion, they "deserve" it. But let's be real: verbal aggression is always aggression. And if it isn't a heat-of-the-moment outburst, but rather something calculated and planned? Then it's nothing more than plain old sadism.
No, I think Krishnamurti does an excellent job here of describing what meditation is NOT. If you just read your quote without any context, you might walk away thinking he was actually against meditation. What meditation truly IS, however, is described right here:
As Krishnamurti once said:
Meditation is essentially the moment when thought finally comes to an end. It’s only once that noise settles that you can actually step into a different dimension—one that exists entirely beyond the constraints of time.
A truly meditative mind is defined by silence. I’m not talking about the quiet you feel on a calm evening or the kind of stillness you can just imagine; I mean the profound silence that occurs only when thought—with all its constant stream of images, words, and perceptions—completely stops. This meditative mind is The religious mind – The religion that is not touched by The church , The temple or by chants - Meditation is One of The Greatest Arts in Life – perhaps The Greatest.
Meditation is truly one of life's finest arts—honestly, maybe even the greatest. The best part? You can’t actually learn it from anyone else. There’s a certain beauty in that. Since there’s no specific technique to master, there’s no authority figure telling you you're doing it "wrong." It really comes down to self-discovery. If you can just observe yourself—watching how you walk, how you eat, the things you say, or even those little moments of gossip, resentment, or jealousy—that's where it starts. Being fully aware of all that within yourself, without judging or trying to pick and choose what to feel, is a fundamental part of meditation.
Meditation isn't just about sitting still on a cushion. It can happen anywhere—whether you're riding the bus through downtown Chicago, strolling through a sun-dappled forest, listening to the local songbirds, or simply catching a quiet moment while looking at the face of your spouse or your child.
- It is fascinating how vital meditation truly is; it feels as though it has no starting point and no finish line. Think of it like a single raindrop that feeds all the winding streams, massive rivers, oceans, and roaring waterfalls; that one drop sustains the entire planet and everyone on it. Without it, the world would just be a barren desert. In the same way, without meditation, the human heart turns into a wasteland.
- Let's be honest, meditation is actual work. It requires a very specific kind of discipline—not the kind where you just follow the crowd, imitate others, or obey rules—but a discipline born from staying constantly aware, not just of your surroundings, but of what's happening deep inside you.
- If you haven't built a foundation of integrity in your daily life, meditation just becomes a way to run away from reality, which makes it pretty much useless. Living with integrity isn't about sticking to social etiquette; it's about finding freedom from envy, greed, and the hunger for power—things that only ever create conflict. You don't get free from those things by trying harder with sheer willpower; you get there by becoming aware of them through genuine self-knowledge. If you don't understand how your own ego operates, meditation just turns into a form of sensory stimulation, which doesn't really mean much.
- Meditation is truly extraordinary. If you don't grasp what it actually is, you're a bit like someone who is blind living in a world full of vibrant colors, shifting shadows, and dancing light. It isn't some purely intellectual exercise. But when the heart truly connects with the mind, the mind changes entirely; it becomes limitless—not just in how it thinks or acts effectively, but in its ability to feel like you are part of a vast, interconnected space where you belong to everything.
What exactly do these little asterisks signify?
It isn't about imitation... I've always felt that the truly enlightened ones are those who actually have a guru. 😂
Meditation isn't about finding peace. It’s about freedom. Or is it? One might argue that peace is just a temporary lull, a quiet moment before the storm returns. But true liberation—that’s something else entirely.
There can be no peace without first having freedom.
If we prioritize finding peace first, then our freedom becomes little more than a fleeting oasis.[/b]
