Dark Night of the Soul

It’s pretty clear that when you're looking at transformation—or alchemy, if you prefer—there are specific gateways you have to pass through; without crossing those thresholds, you simply don't move forward. 🙂 Now, figuring out how to actually do that, which keys to use, the specific path, or the various entities and initiators involved... well, that’s a whole different conversation, and honestly, it's the tricky part. 😉 You can start to see how there are seven archons that correspond to the celestial bodies—the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. And if we look at the mythological side of things, there's always this recurring theme regarding the journey through the underworld.

Andrew Sanchez572 said:I am quite uncertain as to how much detail I should provide. My own personal experiences feel far too intimate and profound for me to simply write them down here.

The Scorpion represents, following Libra, that pivotal transition from the material realm into the spiritual one. It is a process characterized by the burning away and subsequent decay of the ego—all those titles and labels we used to decorate ourselves—and an encounter with death itself, or rather, a shift in consciousness, albeit through a harsh and unlovely medium. We are talking about spiritual insights that arrive unbidden or catch us entirely off guard. This often manifests as a prolonged period of depression, lethargy, and a sense of utter emptiness, which can drag on for quite some time. It serves as the first true trial on the spiritual path; the weakest among us often falter here, only to resume their journey in subsequent lifetimes.

Many who experience this find themselves losing their grip on reality. This phase typically follows that initial burst of euphoria one feels when they first begin walking the path of enlightenment.

Regarding Indian astrology, this period is linked to Saturn transiting over one's natal Moon—the Sadhe Sat—a seven-year stretch of misfortune where even a king might find himself reduced to a beggar.

Furthermore, I wouldn't necessarily link it to the Abyss, but rather to Paroket. Though, of course, that is merely my own perspective...😁
In that sense, it is also intrinsically tied to the Tower and the Art.

I didn't think you were talking about yourself, though—I was actually asking if you could explain what Nigredo even is? I’m unfamiliar with the term... where does it originate from?

Andrew Sanchez572 said:I am quite uncertain as to how much detail I should provide. My own personal experiences feel far too intimate and profound for me to simply write them down here.

The Scorpion represents, following Libra, that pivotal transition from the material realm into the spiritual one. It is a process characterized by the burning away and subsequent decay of the ego—all those titles and labels we used to decorate ourselves—and an encounter with death itself, or rather, a shift in consciousness, albeit through a harsh and unlovely medium. We are talking about spiritual insights that arrive unbidden or catch us entirely off guard. This often manifests as a prolonged period of depression, lethargy, and a sense of utter emptiness, which can drag on for quite some time. It serves as the first true trial on the spiritual path; the weakest among us often falter here, only to resume their journey in subsequent lifetimes.

Many who experience this find themselves losing their grip on reality. This phase typically follows that initial burst of euphoria one feels when they first begin walking the path of enlightenment.

Regarding Indian astrology, this period is linked to Saturn transiting over one's natal Moon—the Sadhe Sat—a seven-year stretch of misfortune where even a king might find himself reduced to a beggar.

Furthermore, I wouldn't necessarily link it to the Abyss, but rather to Paroket. Though, of course, that is merely my own perspective...😁
In that sense, it is also intrinsically tied to the Tower and the Art.

That resonates with me...

But what is the actual connection between the Scorpion and Libra Venus in this context?

Andrew Sanchez572 said:I am quite uncertain as to how much detail I should provide. My own personal experiences feel far too intimate and profound for me to simply write them down here.

The Scorpion represents, following Libra, that pivotal transition from the material realm into the spiritual one. It is a process characterized by the burning away and subsequent decay of the ego—all those titles and labels we used to decorate ourselves—and an encounter with death itself, or rather, a shift in consciousness, albeit through a harsh and unlovely medium. We are talking about spiritual insights that arrive unbidden or catch us entirely off guard. This often manifests as a prolonged period of depression, lethargy, and a sense of utter emptiness, which can drag on for quite some time. It serves as the first true trial on the spiritual path; the weakest among us often falter here, only to resume their journey in subsequent lifetimes.

Many who experience this find themselves losing their grip on reality. This phase typically follows that initial burst of euphoria one feels when they first begin walking the path of enlightenment.

Regarding Indian astrology, this period is linked to Saturn transiting over one's natal Moon—the Sadhe Sat—a seven-year stretch of misfortune where even a king might find himself reduced to a beggar.

Furthermore, I wouldn't necessarily link it to the Abyss, but rather to Paroket. Though, of course, that is merely my own perspective...😁
In that sense, it is also intrinsically tied to the Tower and the Art.

No shit, 😬 those are some pretty heavy claims to make regarding how 'most people snap'...
Why don't they just—you know—give up?
And what kind of insights are you referring to specifically?

briskpanther5 said:It’s pretty clear that when you're looking at transformation—or alchemy, if you prefer—there are specific gateways you have to pass through; without crossing those thresholds, you simply don't move forward. 🙂 Now, figuring out how to actually do that, which keys to use, the specific path, or the various entities and initiators involved... well, that’s a whole different conversation, and honestly, it's the tricky part. 😉 You can start to see how there are seven archons that correspond to the celestial bodies—the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. And if we look at the mythological side of things, there's always this recurring theme regarding the journey through the underworld.

Alright, now we are stepping firmly into the realm of actual magical practice. If someone is truly walking that path, then they will absolutely require those keys, the distinct paths, and the guidance of certain entities...

I find myself wondering about this connection to the celestial bodies. What kind of role do they actually play in the process of transformation?
And please, I’d love to hear this explained from an esoteric perspective...

wiredbear2 said:I didn't think you were talking about yourself, though—I was actually asking if you could explain what Nigredo even is? I’m unfamiliar with the term... where does it originate from?

That resonates with me...

But what is the actual connection between the Scorpion and Libra Venus in this context?

No shit, 😬 those are some pretty heavy claims to make regarding how 'most people snap'...
Why don't they just—you know—give up?
And what kind of insights are you referring to specifically?

Wait, you’ve truly never heard of it?

Here are a few informative links for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigredo
http://www.nyaap.org/index.php/id/7/subid/54

This part I know...

What connection do the Scorpion and Libra Venus have in this context?

Libra represents that initial step toward the spiritual—finding balance, gaining insight, making decisions, judgment, and so on.
Keep in mind that the ruler of Libra is Venus, who is considered a very significant spiritual teacher among the Indian traditions.

No shit. 😬 These are some pretty heavy assumptions to suggest that 'most people go crazy'.
Why don't they just... give up?
What kind of insights are you referring to here?

Um, I didn't say "most," I said "many."
The reason is that the situation is quite serious; not everyone can handle psychological shifts in the same way. That is why building a very subtle body is essential, which requires a disciplined approach to spirituality. Many people dive headfirst into the deep end—they start meditating twelve hours a day immediately because their chakras are opening or energies are flowing, etc.—but they haven't built the foundation to sustain it. They didn't start by meditating for an hour a day and gradually increasing it; instead, they jumped straight to twelve, and then they fall into Nigredo and become completely disoriented. They don't understand what broke within them or how much "worse" they are now than before they started. At that point, there is no "giving up." It is simply a phase in spiritual development. You can't just "quit" depression, you see?

I was referring to those first realizations in a spiritual life, where every person feels happy, blissful, and fulfilled, leading a beginner to believe that is all the path has to offer. But once the "cleansing" begins—the putrefaction and the confrontation with death—then it's a whole different story...🙂

Jeremy Davis7 said:What kind of "abyss" are we even talking about here, pal!?

Care to elaborate?

Thanks for asking. The Abyss I’m referring to is that fundamental illusion—that construct that creates friction, distance, or a total void between you and me, between us and everyone else, and between the material world and the spiritual one.

It feels like everything goes dark whenever we tear away from our old ways of thinking—when we let go of outdated belief systems, old ideals, or goals we used to chase. It’s that moment when we lose our footing in what we thought was certain truth, shedding the very things we once held onto so tightly. In those moments, you step into a void, and it’s dark because the light we used to navigate by has simply flickered out.

But honestly, that’s just the twilight zone. The true Dark Night of the Soul hits when there is absolutely nothing left—no friends, no God, no faith, no love, no knowledge. There isn't even a path to follow, a single answer to find, or a question to ask; there is only the darkness and a heavy stillness. It’s what happens when someone tries so hard to find themselves that they end up losing themselves entirely... It’s a pretty intense state of mind, feeling like you're stuck in limbo, neither here nor there.

Still, the Dark Night of the Soul, much like any other dark period, always comes right before the dawn.

Jeremy Palmer said:It feels like everything goes dark whenever we tear away from our old ways of thinking—when we let go of outdated belief systems, old ideals, or goals we used to chase. It’s that moment when we lose our footing in what we thought was certain truth, shedding the very things we once held onto so tightly. In those moments, you step into a void, and it’s dark because the light we used to navigate by has simply flickered out.

But honestly, that’s just the twilight zone. The true Dark Night of the Soul hits when there is absolutely nothing left—no friends, no God, no faith, no love, no knowledge. There isn't even a path to follow, a single answer to find, or a question to ask; there is only the darkness and a heavy stillness. It’s what happens when someone tries so hard to find themselves that they end up losing themselves entirely... It’s a pretty intense state of mind, feeling like you're stuck in limbo, neither here nor there.

Still, the Dark Night of the Soul, much like any other dark period, always comes right before the dawn.

Hmm, let me think... That sounds... well, unfamiliar to me. No matter how difficult things have been, or how hard they are right now, I always seem to have something to latch onto...
Does this mean that such a state is what awaits me if I remain true to myself and continue with my "growth"?
Right now, that feels almost impossible... perhaps I won't even allow it to happen...

Jeremy, it sounds to me like you've actually walked through this yourself...

I was just thinking about how someone who finds themselves in that place, who is forced to endure it, goes through it all internally, completely invisible to everyone else and to the world at large. They are utterly alone in it. They go to their job, they handle the mundane tasks of daily life, and they live a certain kind of superficial existence on the surface, while simultaneously an entire universe is dying inside them just so a new one can be born...

Jeremy Palmer said:It feels like everything goes dark whenever we tear away from our old ways of thinking—when we let go of outdated belief systems, old ideals, or goals we used to chase. It’s that moment when we lose our footing in what we thought was certain truth, shedding the very things we once held onto so tightly. In those moments, you step into a void, and it’s dark because the light we used to navigate by has simply flickered out.

But honestly, that’s just the twilight zone. The true Dark Night of the Soul hits when there is absolutely nothing left—no friends, no God, no faith, no love, no knowledge. There isn't even a path to follow, a single answer to find, or a question to ask; there is only the darkness and a heavy stillness. It’s what happens when someone tries so hard to find themselves that they end up losing themselves entirely... It’s a pretty intense state of mind, feeling like you're stuck in limbo, neither here nor there.

Still, the Dark Night of the Soul, much like any other dark period, always comes right before the dawn.

Beautifully put... 🙂

hiddenhound3 said:Regarding the dark night of the soul, Hamvas writes in his Cup of Curse about a state defined by festering wounds, dark imagery, anxiety, jealousy, envy, one's own internal toxins, the constant barking at one's own doorstep, chaos, an unmoored heart, and a mental turbulence bordering on madness... all resulting from a shift in consciousness and a loss of the vision of the Great Being. He describes this as a moment in life when one's very foundation is incinerated. He suggests that some people remain trapped in that void for half of their lives.

I have to tell you, Florin, that I always feel a sense of warmth whenever you bring up Bel Hamvas in your posts 🙂 It truly feels as though he managed to encompass every vital dimension of existence and spirituality within his writings.
It isn't any surprise that he had so much to say about the "darkness," considering he was composing much of his work during the years of World War II.
It reminds me quite a bit of how Tolkien approached the concept of evil through the shadows of Mordor.

wiredbear2 said:I have to tell you, Florin, that I always feel a sense of warmth whenever you bring up Bel Hamvas in your posts 🙂 It truly feels as though he managed to encompass every vital dimension of existence and spirituality within his writings.
It isn't any surprise that he had so much to say about the "darkness," considering he was composing much of his work during the years of World War II.
It reminds me quite a bit of how Tolkien approached the concept of evil through the shadows of Mordor.

Every one of us experiences this struggle; perhaps our specific circumstances vary, but fundamentally, I have navigated my own seasons of malevolent thoughts, bottomless pessimism, jealousy, the loss of existential footing, restlessness, anxiety, and even suicidal ideation. Having faced it all, I find these themes deeply personal, and I believe that suffering and darkness are things we should never judge, as everyone possesses an Abyss that is uniquely deep, dark, and seemingly inescapable.

How long do these dark nights actually last? I mean, could they seriously drag on for years? Because if so, that would be a total nightmare.

Edward Evans9 said:How long do these dark nights actually last? I mean, could they seriously drag on for years? Because if so, that would be a total nightmare.

They persist until they have finally passed.
Some individuals simply never find their way back, much like Vincent van Gogh, Charles Baudelaire, or Friedrich Nietzsche...

I honestly can’t tell you when it all started, or how long this shadow has been following me... I don't even know what happened to me, really. All I know is that I was at work one day, just going through the motions, when suddenly, in a single heartbeat, I felt... nothing. Just an absolute void. At first, I tried to rationalize it—I thought maybe my blood pressure was spiking, or perhaps I was anemic, or lacking some essential vitamin. But none of that had anything to do with it. It was simply emptiness. And then, out of that vacuum, fear crawled in. But even then, I couldn't put a finger on what I was actually afraid of. From that point on, the struggles only intensified. I truly believed I was losing my mind, which felt absurd given my circumstances; I'm financially stable, I have a steady career, and I lead a healthy lifestyle...

Before those dark moments consumed me, I never harbored a single negative thought toward anyone. My family used to tell me it was as if a demon had taken hold of me...
I began to pray, though in the beginning, the practice felt almost ridiculous to me. Eventually, however, prayer became my only lifeline whenever those waves of darkness surged over me—finding solace in the Rosary and reading the Gospels. I suppose the whole ordeal lasted about five years. It was my own private hell. Nowadays, the attacks only strike occasionally, usually after I've spent a night drinking with friends. When they do, I fight them off with long walks and, naturally... prayer...

Looking back, my life has been punctuated by all sorts of supernatural encounters. There was the disembodied voice that whispered, "you sold your soul to the devil," and there were the blinding flashes of light that appeared in my room, terrifying me so much that I fled my apartment, feeling a sudden, overwhelming realization: that we humans are so infinitesimally small and insignificant in this material world that our true scale is incomprehensible to the human mind. Then there was the moment my girlfriend abruptly woke up while we were sleeping, feeling a slight breeze across her face, and whispered, "look," almost like some kind of medium. That single word acted as a catalyst for me; that command gave me the clarity I needed to understand my path forward. I hadn't even realized that I had forgotten how to truly "look." Of course, she had been asleep when she said it, and when I recounted the experience to her the next morning, she insisted she had no idea what I was talking about...

In any case, I am glad I stumbled upon this thread...

Thank you all...

👍

"Quote."

wiredbear2 said:What exactly do you mean by that? I would truly love it if you could expand on that thought just a little bit... 🙂[/I]

Yes, casualtiger2, please do elaborate 🙂. I have some familiarity with the concept of the "Dark Night of the Soul," but I don't quite see how it relates specifically to that energetic shift...

Nov 24, 2008 - This is such a fascinating subject that it really deserves its own dedicated thread...
Yes, casualtiger2, please do elaborate 🙂. I have some familiarity with the concept of the "Dark Night of the Soul," but I don't quite see how it relates specifically to that energetic shift...

Nov 24, 2008 - This is such a fascinating subject that it really deserves its own dedicated thread...
Yes, casualtiger2, please do elaborate 🙂. I have some familiarity with the concept of the "Dark Night of the Soul," but I don't quite see how it relates specifically to that energetic shift...

Nov 24, 2008 - This is such a fascinating subject that it really deserves its own dedicated thread...
Can I?
The concept of the dark night of the soul has become a driving force in our collective consciousness. It suggests that through intense spiritual suffering and sacrifice, one can attain a higher state of awareness, bringing the individual closer to God.
The goal, or perhaps the reward, once the *taman noć duša* passes, seems to be discovering the profound joy of one's true nature. For anyone enduring the *taman noć duša*, the suffering feels infinite. It is a long, deep absence of light and hope. In this state, a person feels utterly alone, facing life's heaviest burdens and their deepest fears. Sometimes, we even manufacture these hardships because it's the only path to spiritual growth we recognize. Usually, this happens once in a lifetime—a karmic tool used to force the soul to grow.
Greetings.

If the dark night of the soul is truly a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence... what happens if you stumble during that process and slip back toward those lower chakras? Does that mean you’ve effectively forfeited your chance at true spiritual realization in this lifetime... or is it possible that you simply need to retreat into the shadows for a while until you can find the necessary "courage" to try again?

Regarding this particular topic, I would like to offer a warm recommendation for the book David Torkington - mistik.👍

casualtiger2 said:Yes, casualtiger2, please do elaborate 🙂. I have some familiarity with the concept of the "Dark Night of the Soul," but I don't quite see how it relates specifically to that energetic shift...

Nov 24, 2008 - This is such a fascinating subject that it really deserves its own dedicated thread...

Yes, casualtiger2, please do elaborate 🙂. I have some familiarity with the concept of the "Dark Night of the Soul," but I don't quite see how it relates specifically to that energetic shift...

Nov 24, 2008 - This is such a fascinating subject that it really deserves its own dedicated thread...
Unfortunately, I can't speak from personal experience—every Crisis I've dealt with so far has been pretty surface-level.
The Dark Night of the Soul is likely just another version of that—a crisis occurring when you shift from one level of consciousness to the next.
In Christian terms, Saint John of the Cross describes it as Dark Night of the Soul.

You can find similar ideas in this book, where the author references Assagioli—he was basically the pioneer of transpersonal psychology and focused heavily on spiritual crises and stages of development.

And here’s a more modern, and honestly quite authentic, description of the process (it's all in German, unfortunately, and my translation skills are non-existent).

It’s essentially that moment where Jesus cries out during a crisis, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" The old personality has dissolved, but God hasn't taken His place in the soul yet—so the person is left "alone" in the "darkness." Probably a pretty brutal experience.
1. initiation—moving from the root to the sacrum
2. from the sacrum to the navel
3. from the navel to the solar plexus
4. from the solar plexus to the throat (which would correspond to the crucifixion)
Each of these transitions brings its own share of crises, pain, and joy.
At the heart level, we're still working on personal achievement, which tends to be pretty unstable.
Throat energies align with devotion to the divine—that feeling of being moved, awestruck, or stunned by the mystery of life; that's what we feel right in that center.
Unfortunately, I can't speak from personal experience—every Crisis I've dealt with so far has been pretty surface-level.
The Dark Night of the Soul is likely just another version of that—a crisis occurring when you shift from one level of consciousness to the next.
In Christian terms, Saint John of the Cross describes it as Dark Night of the Soul.

You can find similar ideas in this book, where the author references Assagioli—he was basically the pioneer of transpersonal psychology and focused heavily on spiritual crises and stages of development.

And here’s a more modern, and honestly quite authentic, description of the process (it's all in German, unfortunately, and my translation skills are non-existent).

It’s essentially that moment where Jesus cries out during a crisis, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" The old personality has dissolved, but God hasn't taken His place in the soul yet—so the person is left "alone" in the "darkness." Probably a pretty brutal experience.
1. initiation—moving from the root to the sacrum
2. from the sacrum to the navel
3. from the navel to the solar plexus
4. from the solar plexus to the throat (which would correspond to the crucifixion)
Each of these transitions brings its own share of crises, pain, and joy.
At the heart level, we're still working on personal achievement, which tends to be pretty unstable.
Throat energies align with devotion to the divine—that feeling of being moved, awestruck, or stunned by the mystery of life; that's what we feel right in that center.
While this comparison caught my eye, I'm having a hard time linking the dark night of the soul (based on what St. John of the Cross writes) to the context of those words from Jesus on the cross. God took His place in Jesus (at the latest) during His baptism, and I interpret those words (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me) in line with Jesus' "descent into hell" right after death (before He "ascended to the Father") to deliver the Word even to the "unbelievers in hell" ("spirits in prison"). I'm looking at this through the lens of 1 Peter regarding Christ's example: For Christ also suffered once for sins, being righteous, the unrighteous, to bring us to God. He was indeed put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. For by means of him he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, of whom in olden times he proclaimed through Noah, while the ark was being prepared...

How do you see it?

Actually, from what I've gathered, the dark night of the soul happens to someone who is just starting to seek God and goes through painful separations from their previous, let's call them, worldly things—attachments and ways of thinking. Plus, because they are still full of old habits, insecurities, and fear of the unknown—or the danger of bowing down just when God decides to take them to Himself—the person goes through a rough period of "cleansing." It's how God strengthens the soul. The dark night of the soul, as I understand it, happens to a soul that has sincerely called upon God and truly asked for His grace, which He then provides (as the saying goes: those who seek shall find, and those who knock, it will be opened to them), even if it doesn't happen instantly. Regardless of that sincere desire, the person (or the soul) isn't quite ready to just "switch over to God" in a single moment due to their habitual weaknesses, so the period of "cleansing" and transition is often very painful. But because of that sincerity, God doesn't give up, and that's when the whole process begins.

I'd actually love to hear your thoughts too, since you seem quite familiar with this topic, and maybe hear from someone willing to speak from their own experience. Even just in passing.

@ Joseph Moore4
If God took His place within Jesus—which apparently happened at the latest during His baptism—then I don't get why He would cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" I mean, what’s the logical link between that and "descending into hell" right after death (before "ascending to the Father") just to deliver the Word to "unbelievers in hell" (or "spirits in prison")?
Especially if we assume Jesus is one single person within the Trinity.
Was He basically saying He abandoned Himself?
Who knows, but it seems like this specific line has caused quite a headache for plenty of theologians.

That thing you described—this cleansing process, shedding old habits to become someone searching for God—that definitely rings true. (Actually, I was going to start a thread about the obstacles and crises on the spiritual path, but Bruna decided on this more poetic, prettier title instead).
Still, it feels like something that happens to everyone right at the start, and it isn't actually that terrifying—assuming your motives are solid and you have enough discipline to sort things out relatively easily. It's nowhere near what people call the dark night of the soul.

Like I said before, none of my own crises come anywhere close to what I consider TND.
The connection I mentioned regarding Jesus comes from the books by A. Bailey, specifically "fra Bethlehem to Calvary - The Initiations of Jesus" and "Inititation human and Solar," as well as general theosophical teachings that just click for me.

Obviously, these are just theories—things I've only been able to partially verify—but out of everything on the "theoretical marketplace," they seem the most plausible to me. They rely on what I see as a logical analysis of the human structure (physical, emotional, mental, budding, atmospheric, monadic).
Even if Jesus wasn't a historical figure (some claim he's just an ancient myth), it still holds that certain stages of human development are similar, if not identical—think birth, baptism, transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. It’s comparable to various stages of samadhi in a yogi, or achievements in Hinayana Buddhism: the shrotaapanna ("one who has entered the stream"), the sakridagamin ("one who returns only once"), the anagamin ("one who does not return"), the arhat, and the asekha; or as the Hindus say, the jivanmukta ("liberated while living"). By the way, only this last stage (which isn't actually the final one) can be called a Teacher or a master—though they say reaching the third stage is enough for earthly lessons, making new incarnations unnecessary.
Of course, to someone starting from a different set of assumptions or beliefs, this might all sound absurd, and that's perfectly fine.
For instance, you seem to operate on the assumption that God is something separate from man, whereas I find it more intuitive to think that we are (at our core) actually that God—that Consciousness. For some reason, a part of God wrapped itself in the veils of matter and narrowed its consciousness by identifying with one of the physical bodies.
In that light, spiritual development is essentially a homecoming—a process of de-identification. And as you move through certain stages, you hit these psycho-energetic "explosions" and systemic restructuring—initiations.

In this field, you can really only prove anything through your own experience. So, even though I love talking about this stuff, I find it much less valuable than those tiny, ordinary steps and sincere efforts made in everyday life.

casualtiger2 said:@ Joseph Moore4
If God took His place within Jesus—which apparently happened at the latest during His baptism—then I don't get why He would cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" I mean, what’s the logical link between that and "descending into hell" right after death (before "ascending to the Father") just to deliver the Word to "unbelievers in hell" (or "spirits in prison")?
Especially if we assume Jesus is one single person within the Trinity.
Was He basically saying He abandoned Himself?
Who knows, but it seems like this specific line has caused quite a headache for plenty of theologians.

That thing you described—this cleansing process, shedding old habits to become someone searching for God—that definitely rings true. (Actually, I was going to start a thread about the obstacles and crises on the spiritual path, but Bruna decided on this more poetic, prettier title instead).
Still, it feels like something that happens to everyone right at the start, and it isn't actually that terrifying—assuming your motives are solid and you have enough discipline to sort things out relatively easily. It's nowhere near what people call the dark night of the soul.

Like I said before, none of my own crises come anywhere close to what I consider TND.
The connection I mentioned regarding Jesus comes from the books by A. Bailey, specifically "fra Bethlehem to Calvary - The Initiations of Jesus" and "Inititation human and Solar," as well as general theosophical teachings that just click for me.

Obviously, these are just theories—things I've only been able to partially verify—but out of everything on the "theoretical marketplace," they seem the most plausible to me. They rely on what I see as a logical analysis of the human structure (physical, emotional, mental, budding, atmospheric, monadic).
Even if Jesus wasn't a historical figure (some claim he's just an ancient myth), it still holds that certain stages of human development are similar, if not identical—think birth, baptism, transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. It’s comparable to various stages of samadhi in a yogi, or achievements in Hinayana Buddhism: the shrotaapanna ("one who has entered the stream"), the sakridagamin ("one who returns only once"), the anagamin ("one who does not return"), the arhat, and the asekha; or as the Hindus say, the jivanmukta ("liberated while living"). By the way, only this last stage (which isn't actually the final one) can be called a Teacher or a master—though they say reaching the third stage is enough for earthly lessons, making new incarnations unnecessary.
Of course, to someone starting from a different set of assumptions or beliefs, this might all sound absurd, and that's perfectly fine.
For instance, you seem to operate on the assumption that God is something separate from man, whereas I find it more intuitive to think that we are (at our core) actually that God—that Consciousness. For some reason, a part of God wrapped itself in the veils of matter and narrowed its consciousness by identifying with one of the physical bodies.
In that light, spiritual development is essentially a homecoming—a process of de-identification. And as you move through certain stages, you hit these psycho-energetic "explosions" and systemic restructuring—initiations.

In this field, you can really only prove anything through your own experience. So, even though I love talking about this stuff, I find it much less valuable than those tiny, ordinary steps and sincere efforts made in everyday life.

I agree that the line grabs your attention and gets you thinking, mainly because it isn't mentioned in all four Gospels. It definitely raises questions that even I haven't found a straight answer to, though I did offer the interpretation that makes the most sense to me (backed by a quote). I'm sorry if your "logical connection" isn't clicking, but there's really no point in debating that here—it feels like I'd end up having to explain everything to you. Like I said, I was just intrigued by your "logical connection" regarding TND and asked for clarification (while mentioning why your reasoning felt off to me). Since you've provided the literature that led you to that conclusion, should I take that as your answer?

By the way, as far as I'm concerned, God is one, not three. 😉

What you described as a cleansing—shedding old habits as someone begins searching for God—definitely holds up (honestly, I wanted to start a thread about obstacles and crises on the spiritual path, but Bruna opted for this more poetic, beautiful title instead).

Now I'm not following—what are you getting at with that statement? Are you suggesting the TND title could be replaced by something more general, like "Obstacles and Crises on the Spiritual Path"?

For instance, you're starting from the assumption that God is something separate from man.

I'm not starting from there. 😉

whereas I find it closer to the truth to understand that we are actually that God (in our depths)—that Consciousness. For some reason, a part of God became veiled by matter and narrowed its consciousness through identification with a material body.

My starting point is already very similar to yours (above), just with far fewer "levels," "energies," "explosions," "systems," and "structures" (below). 🙂

In that sense, spiritual growth is basically just finding your way back home. It’s about shedding old identities. As you move through certain stages, you hit these psycho-energetic "explosions"—total system reboots. That's what initiation really is.

TND isn't some "romantic" journey, and it sure as hell isn't mystical like people try to make it out to be. Honestly? Once you actually get through it, all that flowery, romanticized nonsense about God, the world, love, or even TND itself just falls apart. It’s not what they tell you.

Even suffering isn't this "romanticized." This state? It’s indescribable. There are no words for it, no emotions to grab onto—nothing. You can't just take TND and pour it onto paper. And you certainly can't explain it to someone who hasn't lived it. The tools people usually try to use to describe TND? They just don't exist there. There's simply nothing to work with.

Either you're just spinning theories about causes and effects from some intellectual standpoint, or you're just daydreaming about how things might play out. That's all there is to it.

It’s honestly impossible to explain to people who haven't been through it. It looks totally bizarre from the outside, sure. But once you're in it? It wipes the slate clean. Everything you thought you knew, everything you ever learned or understood—it all just gets erased. Every single bit of it.

There’s nothing left to "catch," Bruna. 😉.

Instead of having this grand epiphany where you suddenly realize it's God this or that—or even that we *are* God—man just ends up realizing that a God like that... well, he doesn't actually exist. 🙂

Most of what people are describing in this thread isn't even TND. It’s just... something else entirely. Existential identity crises. Total mess. There are certain people who just get hit from time to time—people whose connections, no matter how emotionally intense, ecstatic, or even "real" they feel, have absolutely nothing to do with TND. 😉

And even after TND, they happen with the exact same level of intensity.
Nothing about a person's core personality ever actually changes. Not fundamentally. Not even close.
And just like that, everything’s changing again. 🤷

TND isn't some solo act, even if it plays out on an individual level.

Look, honestly? On an individual level, the biggest shift you can ever experience is when you finally stop philosophizing about life and actually start living it. 🙂

He’s literally just grabbing hold of his own destiny and letting Life take the wheel without overthinking it.

He starts actually valuing all those things he used to dismiss—his life, the circumstances he was born into—and finally just accepts his fate, no matter how messy it is.

He accepts his existence. He accepts matter—because let’s be real, matter is nothing more than spirit made flesh. He accepts the worldly stuff, the obligations, his parents, his relatives, his roots, the whole world.

He just takes it all in—no questions asked. And when I say everything, I mean *everything*. He accepts his emotions, his sins, his reactions, his lack of reaction, the "good" stuff, the "bad" stuff, his entire character, and both the material and spiritual sides of life. Just total acceptance.

They accept their life exactly as it is, with actual, deep gratitude. They act on that truth instead of wasting time "dreaming" about being someone they aren't. 🙂

You just eventually realize that no matter how hard you try—throwing yourself into philosophy, intellectualizing everything, digging through theories trying to "find yourself" or hunt down some grand purpose—it’s never going to happen. It's a dead end.

And most importantly? He doesn't even actually need it.

And even more importantly—if you want to be technical about it—that thing doesn't even actually exist. 🙂

There aren't any consciousness explosions happening here. No grand initiations, no blinding lights—though, honestly, they could happen if that’s how a person's specific destiny plays out.

Every single destiny is magnificent exactly as it is. Love doesn't make the difference—people do. 😉

In other words, all those sensations—no matter how intense they feel—don't actually matter. They aren't decisive. And they certainly aren't "proof" of TND.

Some people just use this stuff as an excuse to write a flashy little book about their "spiritual journey" and call it a day. That's it. Nothing more.

Sometimes those "sensations" people claim to feel aren't some profound spiritual breakthrough—they're just proof of a fractured mind lost in its own delusions, not TND.

The same goes for emotions, ecstasies, or any of those states—none of that has anything to do with TND, or God, or love. Period. Basically, someone who’s more passionate, more emotional, or more "visual" isn't any "better" than someone who isn't. They just experience things differently, even though those experiences have zero connection to the actual truth.
And vice versa.

TND works through entirely different mechanisms. It’s more like... how should I put this? It’s the result of accumulated "individual destinies." It’s the manifestation of a love that demands every single being in the chain be accepted within their community. This drive of love—which essentially "wants" everyone under the sun to be included—will "break" against an individual destiny without giving a damn about what that person's specific state of spirit actually is.

That’s how Jesus and other "individuals" came to be. At some point, they took upon themselves the "denial and suppression of certain community members" and offered up their "own sacrifice" to redeem "others' sins"—meaning the sins of their fathers, the outcasts everyone else was too quiet about, judged, or kicked out of the fold.

Take a look at everyday life. It happens constantly on a micro level, like in a family, where suicide can actually be an act of true love (even if our warped, romanticized idea of love makes that almost impossible to grasp). It happens through an individual who makes space so that the outcasts can finally be accepted by the whole family unit. Often, the person committing suicide isn't even aware of what they're doing or which "rejected one" they are redeeming—and the family isn't aware either.

So, yeah. That's my two cents. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't write more than this.

Oh, and another thing—something like TND doesn't happen because someone wants it to or aims for it. It’s not accidental, either.

Individuality and personality don't play a role in this at all—that's just the way the order of things is.

On an individual level, TND isn't some kind of exclusivity. It’s just the "result" of a situation where a certain "circle" failed to achieve total assimilation and acceptance of individuals and their—let's call them—"sins." And that’s the one thing love won't tolerate: rejection and differentiation.

Love doesn't pick its methods for restoring a broken "balance," no matter how brutal it looks to us. That is exactly what TND is: love's cry for the acceptance of all "outcasts" regardless of their sins. That cry manifests through an individual who usually isn't even aware of it and certainly didn't choose it. Sometimes it ends in suicide, sometimes in madness, and sometimes in acceptance (of oneself) and forgiveness (of oneself and others), which is the best possible outcome.

@driftingraven122: Where exactly does this connection between Theravada 'achievements' and those other theories come from? I did a little digging online—nothing turned up. Or is this just your own theory, I guess?