Vedic Authorities?

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Well, if we are going to truly dissect what the core issue is with Jesuit leadership, it seems to me that the fundamental problem boils down to a total lack of respect for anyone outside of their own inner circle. Of course, things have softened up a bit lately, but back in the day... 🙄🙄🙄
In fact, from what I can gather, while the intensity has certainly died down, it feels as though the whole thing has become somewhat diluted in the process.
I suppose it’s just one of those things where there are pros and cons to every situation...

👍

Amanda Roberts21 As specified by:
Well, I suppose... I might have been a bit excessive when I suggested that things were looking rather bleak... 🙄

It truly breaks my heart to think about the friends I’ve lost to this movement... people I once held dear, all gone because they chose to follow them. I have personally witnessed entire families unraveling right before my eyes because of Hare Krishna. It is deeply unsettling to watch such brilliant, capable individuals slowly lose their grip on reality. I've seen mothers hand over their children to these gurus, sending them into environments that were essentially breeding grounds for predators. Because of their rigid, arbitrary rules, marriages fall apart and homes are destroyed. I have watched beautiful, vibrant women wither away until they are mere shadows of themselves, surviving on nothing but cookies... It is heartbreaking to see intellectuals, people with so much to offer the world, humiliating themselves by selling books just to fund these temples. You end up with these deeply unhappy, intelligent people caught in a sort of limbo—neither fully present in the world nor finding peace in the spiritual realm, just stuck in this gray, hollow zone. I have seen far too much of this devastation firsthand... which is why I tend to be a bit more blunt when it comes to this movement. I believe the old leader was dangerous, and my intensity regarding this group stems from everything I've witnessed...

There’s this one video of his on YouTube—it’s actually a clip from a TV segment—where he makes several rather shallow observations... among other things.


One really ought to strive to comprehend the Divine, and perhaps, if one is truly diligent, attempt to cultivate a genuine love for Him...

That single sentence tells you everything you need to know about where he stands. For him, realizing God is purely an intellectual exercise—it’s all about data, logic, and accumulating KNOWLEDGE. Love, on the other hand, is treated as nothing more than a matter of willpower... That is the fundamental nature of this entire movement. It is built entirely upon his specific WORDS and commands, creating this elaborate facade of LOVE, when in reality, they harbor nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't fit their mold...

Well, I’ve certainly looked at everything through many different lenses and tried my hand at just about everything under the sun, but looking back on it all now... I don't have any regrets. Some people end up in much worse positions than I did, mostly because they failed to stick to basic principles like rational judgment. It isn't entirely their fault, of course, but people have this tendency to lean into escapism... and then when reality finally hits them, they find someone else to blame instead of taking responsibility for themselves...

He was always such a stickler for the rules—don't criticize the devotees and stay far away from any kind of sectarianism. But honestly, when you look at those two principles closely, they feel like a direct assault on anyone's right to speak their mind or offer an honest opinion. I’ve seen some people cling to those dictates as if their lives depended on it, holding onto them with absolutely no flexibility whatsoever... and frankly, that just can't be the right way to go about things.

bluemason3 said:Like I said, I think he made some wrong moves, but the real circus started after he died. The "inner circle" that took over often pushed aside long-time, direct students of SPD. For instance, that specific guru school you mentioned wasn't originally run by those "monks" who were later convicted; it was managed by a couple appointed by SPD itself. But once he passed, the new crowd ousted them. So, nothing is purely black or white. I'll say again: his specific worldview likely fueled an arrogance that eventually led to manipulation and irresponsibility, but I don't think there was anything inherently evil or malicious in his core. I can't say the same for some of the second-generation leaders.

But this current "third" generation of gurus—the ones who stayed grounded after that whole zonal acharya mess blew up—seems better. Personally, I find many of them, like Sacinandan or Smita Krishna Svami, to be high quality.🙂

Andrew Sanchez572 said:

Amanda Roberts21 As specified by:
Well, I suppose... I might have been a bit excessive when I suggested that things were looking rather bleak... 🙄

It truly breaks my heart to think about the friends I’ve lost to this movement... people I once held dear, all gone because they chose to follow them. I have personally witnessed entire families unraveling right before my eyes because of Hare Krishna. It is deeply unsettling to watch such brilliant, capable individuals slowly lose their grip on reality. I've seen mothers hand over their children to these gurus, sending them into environments that were essentially breeding grounds for predators. Because of their rigid, arbitrary rules, marriages fall apart and homes are destroyed. I have watched beautiful, vibrant women wither away until they are mere shadows of themselves, surviving on nothing but cookies... It is heartbreaking to see intellectuals, people with so much to offer the world, humiliating themselves by selling books just to fund these temples. You end up with these deeply unhappy, intelligent people caught in a sort of limbo—neither fully present in the world nor finding peace in the spiritual realm, just stuck in this gray, hollow zone. I have seen far too much of this devastation firsthand... which is why I tend to be a bit more blunt when it comes to this movement. I believe the old leader was dangerous, and my intensity regarding this group stems from everything I've witnessed...

There’s this one video of his on YouTube—it’s actually a clip from a TV segment—where he makes several rather shallow observations... among other things.


One really ought to strive to comprehend the Divine, and perhaps, if one is truly diligent, attempt to cultivate a genuine love for Him...

That single sentence tells you everything you need to know about where he stands. For him, realizing God is purely an intellectual exercise—it’s all about data, logic, and accumulating KNOWLEDGE. Love, on the other hand, is treated as nothing more than a matter of willpower... That is the fundamental nature of this entire movement. It is built entirely upon his specific WORDS and commands, creating this elaborate facade of LOVE, when in reality, they harbor nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't fit their mold...

Well, I’ve certainly looked at everything through many different lenses and tried my hand at just about everything under the sun, but looking back on it all now... I don't have any regrets. Some people end up in much worse positions than I did, mostly because they failed to stick to basic principles like rational judgment. It isn't entirely their fault, of course, but people have this tendency to lean into escapism... and then when reality finally hits them, they find someone else to blame instead of taking responsibility for themselves...

He was always such a stickler for the rules—don't criticize the devotees and stay far away from any kind of sectarianism. But honestly, when you look at those two principles closely, they feel like a direct assault on anyone's right to speak their mind or offer an honest opinion. I’ve seen some people cling to those dictates as if their lives depended on it, holding onto them with absolutely no flexibility whatsoever... and frankly, that just can't be the right way to go about things.

Yeah, I think we’re seeing an attempt to transplant an entire culture here—not just spirituality, but everything. In America, this isn't viewed as deep-rooted tradition like it is in India; it's treated as pure exoticism. That tends to attract people who are more lost than they are grounded. On the flip side, maybe that's how people actually find their way. They stumble through the chaos and eventually build a foundation that's actually healthier than those New Age types chasing "chakra alignment" or "instant enlightenment" without any real substance behind it.

bluemason3 As I was reflecting on this earlier... one really has to consider the implications of what was said...
It seems to me that this current "third" wave of gurus—those who have finally decided to get "down-to-earth" following the complete meltdown of the old zonal acharya system—actually feels like an improvement. Looking at many of them now, such as Sacinandan and Smita Krishna Svami, I find myself thinking they actually possess a certain level of genuine quality... 🙂

Smita Krishna Svami 😍

bluemason3 said:Yeah, I think we’re seeing an attempt to transplant an entire culture here—not just spirituality, but everything. In America, this isn't viewed as deep-rooted tradition like it is in India; it's treated as pure exoticism. That tends to attract people who are more lost than they are grounded. On the flip side, maybe that's how people actually find their way. They stumble through the chaos and eventually build a foundation that's actually healthier than those New Age types chasing "chakra alignment" or "instant enlightenment" without any real substance behind it.

I have to agree with you there. Even after a total shipwreck, something substantial always remains... ☕
real knowledge.

Amanda Roberts21 said:but then again, who would ever take you seriously anyway....

you won't, so I'm not even bothering

bluemason3 said:Look, these debates have been going on forever, and we’re never going to reach some absolute finality. It's worth noting that the other two schools are younger and emerged specifically to challenge Shankara. You can't just dismiss them as inferior; they wouldn't have even gained traction if they hadn't successfully contested the older Shankara traditions, much like how he famously held his own against the Buddhists of his era. It's just that most of us in America aren't deeply versed in Hindu traditions, Sanskrit, or the nuances required to dive into the heavy lifting. That makes Advaita feel much more accessible to us—it's intellectual, easy to grasp, and simple to present outside of its original context.

To me, that’s a solid reason to stick with Advaita if I'm not Hindu and don't feel the need to be. If I actually wanted something more traditional, I'd go practice that instead. Like I mentioned before, we're all kind of being guided through life, and I think as we mature, we tend to shed more and more tradition—or at least we hold onto those specific bits that give us a little support or inspiration.

When you actually put in the work to be truthful with others and with YOURSELF, that truth starts to strengthen inside you. Then, what your heart tells you becomes a lot more accurate than when you were still busy nurturing all that dishonesty.

bluemason3 said:Yeah, I think we’re seeing an attempt to transplant an entire culture here—not just spirituality, but everything. In America, this isn't viewed as deep-rooted tradition like it is in India; it's treated as pure exoticism. That tends to attract people who are more lost than they are grounded. On the flip side, maybe that's how people actually find their way. They stumble through the chaos and eventually build a foundation that's actually healthier than those New Age types chasing "chakra alignment" or "instant enlightenment" without any real substance behind it.

Hare Krishna can honestly just shatter anyone who isn't mentally rock-solid.

Only truly powerful individuals can break free if they manage to exit at the right time.

Cults are incredibly, incredibly dangerous—not just for your spiritual journey, but for your mental health too.

Feel free to quote me if you want.

haug 😉

Amanda Roberts21 said:Hare Krishna can honestly just shatter anyone who isn't mentally rock-solid.

Only truly powerful individuals can break free if they manage to exit at the right time.

Cults are incredibly, incredibly dangerous—not just for your spiritual journey, but for your mental health too.

Feel free to quote me if you want.

haug 😉

which implies that the process is actually working 🥳...

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Well, if we are going to truly dissect what the core issue is with Jesuit leadership, it seems to me that the fundamental problem boils down to a total lack of respect for anyone outside of their own inner circle. Of course, things have softened up a bit lately, but back in the day... 🙄🙄🙄
In fact, from what I can gather, while the intensity has certainly died down, it feels as though the whole thing has become somewhat diluted in the process.
I suppose it’s just one of those things where there are pros and cons to every situation...

This is actually something Vivekananda said when he was asked about the difference between dualism and Advaita. Since dualists basically claim God is separate, V responded by saying dualists just end up glorifying themselves.
It's like they only ever respected their own perspective, just like you were saying.
But honestly, a person should be more like a bee—just moving from flower to flower, gathering nectar from everywhere!
The folks in ISKON who lost their way probably just needed the lesson, and hopefully, it sticks for them in the next life or whatever.
Spirituality is supposed to be about wisdom, not ego!!

Andrew Sanchez572 said:

bluemason3 As I was reflecting on this earlier... one really has to consider the implications of what was said...
It seems to me that this current "third" wave of gurus—those who have finally decided to get "down-to-earth" following the complete meltdown of the old zonal acharya system—actually feels like an improvement. Looking at many of them now, such as Sacinandan and Smita Krishna Svami, I find myself thinking they actually possess a certain level of genuine quality... 🙂

Smita Krishna Svami 😍

was 😍 we had such an interesting bond—he actually put a flower garland around my neck once... I still keep it at home!

I meditated on him for a long time, but eventually, I realized someone else was meant for me 😍

... and the last time I went to visit him at the temple... it had been 100 years... by then I’d already been initiated into a different tradition—he gave me a playful slap on the back during kirtan, and then during the namaste Narasimhaya, he pulled me by the arm to make sure I sat right next to him 😍 ... that was such a huge honor for me ... 😢

... I can still vividly remember his lectures... he was a massive inspiration in my life... 🙏

mistygull16 As specified by:
One really ought to strive to be like a honeybee, constantly moving from one blossom to the next to gather nectar... there is simply so much to learn from everyone we meet...
Those who have lost their way within ISKON have certainly lost their internal compass, though I suspect they’ve gained a rather profound lesson that will serve them well in their future incarnations...
True spirituality isn't about feeding the ego; it’s about cultivating genuine wisdom...

Why wait until the next one? I could honestly do this right now... I’m more than happy to participate in this current session if they have the will to make it happen at ISKON.

boldsailor2 said:was 😍 we had such an interesting bond—he actually put a flower garland around my neck once... I still keep it at home!

I meditated on him for a long time, but eventually, I realized someone else was meant for me 😍

... and the last time I went to visit him at the temple... it had been 100 years... by then I’d already been initiated into a different tradition—he gave me a playful slap on the back during kirtan, and then during the namaste Narasimhaya, he pulled me by the arm to make sure I sat right next to him 😍 ... that was such a huge honor for me ... 😢

... I can still vividly remember his lectures... he was a massive inspiration in my life... 🙏

That's wonderful. I truly hold him in such high regard, and his students as well. He is quite simply a marvelous individual...

Andrew Sanchez572 said:

Amanda Roberts21 As specified by:
Well, I suppose... I might have been a bit excessive when I suggested that things were looking rather bleak... 🙄

It truly breaks my heart to think about the friends I’ve lost to this movement... people I once held dear, all gone because they chose to follow them. I have personally witnessed entire families unraveling right before my eyes because of Hare Krishna. It is deeply unsettling to watch such brilliant, capable individuals slowly lose their grip on reality. I've seen mothers hand over their children to these gurus, sending them into environments that were essentially breeding grounds for predators. Because of their rigid, arbitrary rules, marriages fall apart and homes are destroyed. I have watched beautiful, vibrant women wither away until they are mere shadows of themselves, surviving on nothing but cookies... It is heartbreaking to see intellectuals, people with so much to offer the world, humiliating themselves by selling books just to fund these temples. You end up with these deeply unhappy, intelligent people caught in a sort of limbo—neither fully present in the world nor finding peace in the spiritual realm, just stuck in this gray, hollow zone. I have seen far too much of this devastation firsthand... which is why I tend to be a bit more blunt when it comes to this movement. I believe the old leader was dangerous, and my intensity regarding this group stems from everything I've witnessed...

There’s this one video of his on YouTube—it’s actually a clip from a TV segment—where he makes several rather shallow observations... among other things.


One really ought to strive to comprehend the Divine, and perhaps, if one is truly diligent, attempt to cultivate a genuine love for Him...

That single sentence tells you everything you need to know about where he stands. For him, realizing God is purely an intellectual exercise—it’s all about data, logic, and accumulating KNOWLEDGE. Love, on the other hand, is treated as nothing more than a matter of willpower... That is the fundamental nature of this entire movement. It is built entirely upon his specific WORDS and commands, creating this elaborate facade of LOVE, when in reality, they harbor nothing but contempt for anyone who doesn't fit their mold...

Well, I’ve certainly looked at everything through many different lenses and tried my hand at just about everything under the sun, but looking back on it all now... I don't have any regrets. Some people end up in much worse positions than I did, mostly because they failed to stick to basic principles like rational judgment. It isn't entirely their fault, of course, but people have this tendency to lean into escapism... and then when reality finally hits them, they find someone else to blame instead of taking responsibility for themselves...

He was always such a stickler for the rules—don't criticize the devotees and stay far away from any kind of sectarianism. But honestly, when you look at those two principles closely, they feel like a direct assault on anyone's right to speak their mind or offer an honest opinion. I’ve seen some people cling to those dictates as if their lives depended on it, holding onto them with absolutely no flexibility whatsoever... and frankly, that just can't be the right way to go about things.

It's the truth. 👍
That’s exactly why this happened—certain people just forced their way in. It's that same type of crowd you see trying to dominate everything in the secular world—they can't seem to get ahead out there, so they found fertile ground in ISKON because nobody dares to stand up to them. Meanwhile, the people who actually *should* be in those positions were pushed to the sidelines—mostly because they're humble and simply refuse to commit any Vaishnava aparadh. 👎

The end result was that all the sane people just walked away—it became completely unbearable... there were really only two choices—either let them suffocate you and force you into a corner without any mercy, or just get out. I chose the latter.

Maybe things are looking up now... honestly, I have no clue.

So, I actually made my way back to the temple the week before last—my first visit in ten years.
The whole atmosphere feels quite different now, much more laid back. You really ought to drop by sometime just to see for yourself.
Even though I find myself looking back on it all with such intense nostalgia, I don't think I could ever truly go back... especially since my guru has passed away. (I honestly can't wrap my head around it)
And, well, some things are simply impossible to forget, much to my regret.
But I suppose everyone finds their place eventually, if they're lucky enough.
By the way, who is your guru, boldsailor2?

Can I ask a quick, maybe slightly ungrateful question?
Since you used to hang out with those old Krishna followers way more than I did—and trust me, I was a regular at their place too—I’ve been wondering how anyone actually becomes a mentor. From what I gather, there were a few of them in the organization, but some fell from grace, right? Did things get messy? And did they become mentors because of some deep spiritual breakthrough, like reaching samadhi, or was it just based on something else entirely?
It always felt kind of silly to me when people said someone just picked up a bunch of students and then suddenly crashed and burned!
Or was being a mentor basically just synonymous with knowing the philosophy inside and out?
I remember hearing a lot of praise for a Vishnupad, and apparently, after he had this specific experience, he started identifying himself as Krishna—or so I heard.
Now, according to Advaita, that would be a pretty great sign, but for those Krishna folks, that's about as bad as it gets.
Also, back when I used to visit them about 15 years ago in Cleveland, there was this one bhakta—I think his name was dervendra-sigurno, though I might have butchered the spelling—who I see now has his own Christian-Vaishnava community and his own following. He was always going on about the ecstasy he felt whenever he chanted a mantra or sang a bhajan. Man, those guys were really something... makes me feel a bit nostalgic just thinking about it.
Anyway, in Advaita, you don't just become a mentor overnight. You practically have to be born an enlightened soul to inherit the lineage. At least, that's my take on it.

Well, from what I understand, there are actually several different ways this can happen. For instance, a mentor might gather their disciples before passing away—specifically choosing the 'most advanced' among them—to pass down the mantle of leadership.
Another way is if the mentor has already departed; in those cases, certain individuals might 'meditate' on you, leading you to accept the responsibility. However, you would still need to be formally initiated by either a godbrother of your mentor or perhaps a godbrother who has himself become a mentor.
That is how it works, more or less.
Though, I suppose that may not cover everything... 🤷
(Oh, speaking of which, it reminds me of Akrure Prabhu 😍)

Andrew Sanchez572 said:Well, from what I understand, there are actually several different ways this can happen. For instance, a mentor might gather their disciples before passing away—specifically choosing the 'most advanced' among them—to pass down the mantle of leadership.
Another way is if the mentor has already departed; in those cases, certain individuals might 'meditate' on you, leading you to accept the responsibility. However, you would still need to be formally initiated by either a godbrother of your mentor or perhaps a godbrother who has himself become a mentor.
That is how it works, more or less.
Though, I suppose that may not cover everything... 🤷
(Oh, speaking of which, it reminds me of Akrure Prabhu 😍)

And what about a Vishnupad? What happened there? Did anyone actually recognize him after?

mistygull16 said:And what about a Vishnupad? What happened there? Did anyone actually recognize him after?

🤷
All I know is what I've heard from some of his former students... they say he's practically dead to them now, mostly because they can't get past the fact that he decided to get married...

mistygull16 said:Can I ask a quick, maybe slightly ungrateful question?
Since you used to hang out with those old Krishna followers way more than I did—and trust me, I was a regular at their place too—I’ve been wondering how anyone actually becomes a mentor. From what I gather, there were a few of them in the organization, but some fell from grace, right? Did things get messy? And did they become mentors because of some deep spiritual breakthrough, like reaching samadhi, or was it just based on something else entirely?
It always felt kind of silly to me when people said someone just picked up a bunch of students and then suddenly crashed and burned!
Or was being a mentor basically just synonymous with knowing the philosophy inside and out?
I remember hearing a lot of praise for a Vishnupad, and apparently, after he had this specific experience, he started identifying himself as Krishna—or so I heard.
Now, according to Advaita, that would be a pretty great sign, but for those Krishna folks, that's about as bad as it gets.
Also, back when I used to visit them about 15 years ago in Cleveland, there was this one bhakta—I think his name was dervendra-sigurno, though I might have butchered the spelling—who I see now has his own Christian-Vaishnava community and his own following. He was always going on about the ecstasy he felt whenever he chanted a mantra or sang a bhajan. Man, those guys were really something... makes me feel a bit nostalgic just thinking about it.
Anyway, in Advaita, you don't just become a mentor overnight. You practically have to be born an enlightened soul to inherit the lineage. At least, that's my take on it.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Among those famous in the West, there are plenty of "self-proclaimed" mentors. They aren't necessarily part of a tradition. To take sannyas, you need someone to initiate you, but generally, it seems a mentor's role in India is more spontaneous, though it depends on the specific tradition or organization. Usually, a solid organization is what sets the criteria. With the Krishna followers, I believe the GBC has to "approve" it, rather than set the rules.

As for the idea that becoming a mentor isn't easy in Advaita—that's just talk for children (or naive Americans). Anyone with a decent pitch and a polished image can become a mentor. Even within respected institutions (like Shankarin mat), you find politics—deception, even assassination attempts—just like in any other organization fighting for power. It has nothing to do with spiritual paths or traditions. You have to look at the individual; most of them are more parasites than anything credible.