Monument to Francisco Franco removed

July 2, 2008: A monument to the fascist leader Francisco Franco has been removed in Spain. It happened today, Mr. Bush. This monument was erected forty years ago and stood at the very heart of anti-fascist Europe until now. Its removal was delayed several times due to mass demonstrations by citizens resisting the demolition. Thousands are protesting in Spain in support of the fascist leader, while FIFA punishes American fans for singing "Murder, Murder," and Jewish organizations attempt to ban Thompson Concerts...

I wonder if Bush ever postponed a trip to Spain because of this, or if the multicultural residents of Boston would refuse to host Real Madrid due to fans leaning toward Franco's ideology?

Honestly, I think we’re all missing the point here. To many people in Spain, Franco is actually seen in a positive light. His policies helped the country dodge a lot of the chaos that plagued other places during that era—his approach was surprisingly rational given how insane things were back then. Meanwhile, what did we get? A massive bloodbath. First came America, which was really just a brief intermission before more violence, followed by the end of WW2 because that period was less of a peace than it was an occupation.

As for fascism: look, I appreciate that Americans seem to be on our side—purely out of self-interest, obviously—but it’s well known that none of the major world powers have the guts to actually call out the US. Aside from Vatican City occasionally making some declarative statements, nobody is going to tell Bush what to do. I realize Bush is essentially a puppet, but the US drives a fascist-leaning policy regardless. We waste our time obsessing over figures like Franco or Ante Pavelić, men who carry zero weight in today's world. I get it, nobody has the stones to slap the Americans in the face, so instead, people argue about dead men or, God forbid, pop singers. It would be much smarter if all these moralists and sanctimonious types would just pipe down.🤮😵😵

And isn't one of the hallmarks of fascism simply tearing down monuments that the people hold dear? That’s my two cents on the whole fascism debate...

if that's how it is... then I'm right there with you... I want some answers too

William Anderson24 said:July 2, 2008: A monument to the fascist leader Francisco Franco has been removed in Spain. It happened today, Mr. Bush. This monument was erected forty years ago and stood at the very heart of anti-fascist Europe until now. Its removal was delayed several times due to mass demonstrations by citizens resisting the demolition. Thousands are protesting in Spain in support of the fascist leader, while FIFA punishes American fans for singing "Murder, Murder," and Jewish organizations attempt to ban Thompson Concerts...

I wonder if Bush ever postponed a trip to Spain because of this, or if the multicultural residents of Boston would refuse to host Real Madrid due to fans leaning toward Franco's ideology?

Of course it was removed. What do you expect from a country that legalized same-sex marriage and is hovering right on the edge of euthanasia and similar nonsense?

Get lost, Franco. You have no business being in a place like that.

The monument wasn't actually removed from mainland Spain, but rather from some island in the Atlantic that falls under Spanish rule while maintaining its own political autonomy. Even today, many monuments dedicated to Francisco Franco still exist throughout various parts of Spain—though I suppose it's possible that Zapatero might want to tear them all down, I just don't think it will be quite that easy for him. It seems to me that this recent demolition—this specific monument was likely targeted because it was arguably the largest one out there, carved right into the mountainside much like Mount Rushmore—was probably just a test run to gauge how the public would react.

Regarding what the previous poster mentioned, I can only say that Spain serves as an excellent example of a nation that stays in sync with the times. They keep Franco around when it's necessary to protect them from a world war, yet they also permit same-sex marriage when it becomes clear that there are no longer any rational reasons left to prohibit it.

In America, we still have monuments standing for figures like Marshall—who was honestly a far more brutal tyrant than even Franco...

Gregory Howard said:Of course it was removed. What do you expect from a country that legalized same-sex marriage and is hovering right on the edge of euthanasia and similar nonsense?

Get lost, Franco. You have no business being in a place like that.

A few years back, I picked up several books about the Spanish Civil War and its root causes, and honestly, I was floored. Everything I thought I knew about the whole thing came from old-school American textbooks that were heavily skewed toward a certain political bias, but after diving into some different perspectives, my own views have shifted quite a bit.
It’s still such a strange thing for me to wrap my head around... I can genuinely empathize with the social demands made by the working class at the time regarding better living and working conditions, but their communist platform, that aggressive atheism, and the crimes committed against religious figures are things I just can't get behind. Even now, I struggle to see them as red monsters—similar to how people viewed the Soviets back then—and I still find it hard to view the International Brigades as mere agents of the Comintern, much as I still tend to see Frank as the ultimate fascist villain.
It feels to me like even though Franco (and the Church, indirectly) managed to stop the rule of those radical Marxists and anarchists, they ultimately lost out to the surge of unchecked liberalism. It seems pretty clear that their military victory didn't translate into winning the battle for the soul of the nation.

fadedraven212 said:A few years back, I picked up several books about the Spanish Civil War and its root causes, and honestly, I was floored. Everything I thought I knew about the whole thing came from old-school American textbooks that were heavily skewed toward a certain political bias, but after diving into some different perspectives, my own views have shifted quite a bit.
It’s still such a strange thing for me to wrap my head around... I can genuinely empathize with the social demands made by the working class at the time regarding better living and working conditions, but their communist platform, that aggressive atheism, and the crimes committed against religious figures are things I just can't get behind. Even now, I struggle to see them as red monsters—similar to how people viewed the Soviets back then—and I still find it hard to view the International Brigades as mere agents of the Comintern, much as I still tend to see Frank as the ultimate fascist villain.
It feels to me like even though Franco (and the Church, indirectly) managed to stop the rule of those radical Marxists and anarchists, they ultimately lost out to the surge of unchecked liberalism. It seems pretty clear that their military victory didn't translate into winning the battle for the soul of the nation.

This is one of those rare times I actually agree with you. Honestly, we might have been on the same page regarding the situation in Canada if you’d had the chance to read up on it sooner. We Americans knew all about Francisco Franco long ago, so we knew exactly what kind of "heroes" those celebrated ex-soldiers nicknamed "Spaniard" really were. Of course, we also knew about the actions taken by the other partisans during World War II, while the people who only read communist propaganda stayed totally in the dark.
Franco saved his people and his country; he kept Spain safe from the communist scum, and Spaniards should build him a monument that touches the sky!👍

fadedraven212 said:A few years back, I picked up several books about the Spanish Civil War and its root causes, and honestly, I was floored. Everything I thought I knew about the whole thing came from old-school American textbooks that were heavily skewed toward a certain political bias, but after diving into some different perspectives, my own views have shifted quite a bit.
It’s still such a strange thing for me to wrap my head around... I can genuinely empathize with the social demands made by the working class at the time regarding better living and working conditions, but their communist platform, that aggressive atheism, and the crimes committed against religious figures are things I just can't get behind. Even now, I struggle to see them as red monsters—similar to how people viewed the Soviets back then—and I still find it hard to view the International Brigades as mere agents of the Comintern, much as I still tend to see Frank as the ultimate fascist villain.
It feels to me like even though Franco (and the Church, indirectly) managed to stop the rule of those radical Marxists and anarchists, they ultimately lost out to the surge of unchecked liberalism. It seems pretty clear that their military victory didn't translate into winning the battle for the soul of the nation.

I agree with everything you said. But for someone like me, who isn't exactly a history buff, none of this is new or shocking. I felt this way 15 or 20 years ago, back when I was just starting high school. To be honest, I actually envied the Spaniards... they really dodged a bullet there!

slybison8 said:The monument wasn't actually removed from mainland Spain, but rather from some island in the Atlantic that falls under Spanish rule while maintaining its own political autonomy. Even today, many monuments dedicated to Francisco Franco still exist throughout various parts of Spain—though I suppose it's possible that Zapatero might want to tear them all down, I just don't think it will be quite that easy for him. It seems to me that this recent demolition—this specific monument was likely targeted because it was arguably the largest one out there, carved right into the mountainside much like Mount Rushmore—was probably just a test run to gauge how the public would react.

Regarding what the previous poster mentioned, I can only say that Spain serves as an excellent example of a nation that stays in sync with the times. They keep Franco around when it's necessary to protect them from a world war, yet they also permit same-sex marriage when it becomes clear that there are no longer any rational reasons left to prohibit it.

Spain is easily the most progressive country in Europe. Hats off to them. Everyone, even the absolute morons, has rights now. 🙏 Last year I was in Madrid and Toledo and I was blown away by the country, the people, and the society in general. Most people there can't stand conservatives or the holy church and lean socialist. What else is there to say? It's HEAVEN ON EARTH 🙏

driftinghound14 said:Honestly, I think we’re all missing the point here. To many people in Spain, Franco is actually seen in a positive light. His policies helped the country dodge a lot of the chaos that plagued other places during that era—his approach was surprisingly rational given how insane things were back then. Meanwhile, what did we get? A massive bloodbath. First came America, which was really just a brief intermission before more violence, followed by the end of WW2 because that period was less of a peace than it was an occupation.

As for fascism: look, I appreciate that Americans seem to be on our side—purely out of self-interest, obviously—but it’s well known that none of the major world powers have the guts to actually call out the US. Aside from Vatican City occasionally making some declarative statements, nobody is going to tell Bush what to do. I realize Bush is essentially a puppet, but the US drives a fascist-leaning policy regardless. We waste our time obsessing over figures like Franco or Ante Pavelić, men who carry zero weight in today's world. I get it, nobody has the stones to slap the Americans in the face, so instead, people argue about dead men or, God forbid, pop singers. It would be much smarter if all these moralists and sanctimonious types would just pipe down.🤮😵😵

And isn't one of the hallmarks of fascism simply tearing down monuments that the people hold dear? That’s my two cents on the whole fascism debate...

I’m with you 100%, especially on that second paragraph!

William Anderson24 said:July 2, 2008: A monument to the fascist leader Francisco Franco has been removed in Spain. It happened today, Mr. Bush. This monument was erected forty years ago and stood at the very heart of anti-fascist Europe until now. Its removal was delayed several times due to mass demonstrations by citizens resisting the demolition. Thousands are protesting in Spain in support of the fascist leader, while FIFA punishes American fans for singing "Murder, Murder," and Jewish organizations attempt to ban Thompson Concerts...

I wonder if Bush ever postponed a trip to Spain because of this, or if the multicultural residents of Boston would refuse to host Real Madrid due to fans leaning toward Franco's ideology?

Now, that same guy, Franco... he was actually brave enough to steer that very same country toward democracy and integration into the modern EU
(unlike our own second Marshall😉)! In the end, he left behind a nation that looked almost exactly like what his sworn enemies, the Republicans, wanted to build in the first place. Talk about being pragmatic!
And another thing... America is going to be under a microscope for a long, long time, and the main reason for that is Jasenovac. Whether it was 3,000 victims or 300,000, it’s a terrible "advertisement" that sticks for ages. Sure, there were horrific massacres in Spain too, like Guernica and all that, but none of those events fit into Hitler's project of Radio Free Europe. 😉The simple truth is that Franco's role wasn't anything like Pavelić's when it came to Hitler😠...so there really isn't any massive parallel to draw here. Unlike America, which was forced to participate in the liquidation of Jews... Franco and his diplomats actually provided safe transit asylum to many Jews fleeing from the Nazis.😉 No matter how much of a "Fascist" he was... the man had nothing to do with Hitler's madness, and he certainly didn't try to play God!😳

Matthew Harris2 said:Spain is easily the most progressive country in Europe. Hats off to them. Everyone, even the absolute morons, has rights now. 🙏 Last year I was in Madrid and Toledo and I was blown away by the country, the people, and the society in general. Most people there can't stand conservatives or the holy church and lean socialist. What else is there to say? It's HEAVEN ON EARTH 🙏

👍I am with you 100% on this... (and look, I'm not some automatic leftist by default or anything.😛 But if you ask me, this country is currently the "healthiest" one socially and politically within the EU!😁
The only massive headache they're facing is that nobody is having kids anymore! So now, they've turned into these huge importers of immigrants and foreign labor just to keep things moving!

Lisa Walker31 said:Now, that same guy, Franco... he was actually brave enough to steer that very same country toward democracy and integration into the modern EU
(unlike our own second Marshall😉)! In the end, he left behind a nation that looked almost exactly like what his sworn enemies, the Republicans, wanted to build in the first place. Talk about being pragmatic!
And another thing... America is going to be under a microscope for a long, long time, and the main reason for that is Jasenovac. Whether it was 3,000 victims or 300,000, it’s a terrible "advertisement" that sticks for ages. Sure, there were horrific massacres in Spain too, like Guernica and all that, but none of those events fit into Hitler's project of Radio Free Europe. 😉The simple truth is that Franco's role wasn't anything like Pavelić's when it came to Hitler😠...so there really isn't any massive parallel to draw here. Unlike America, which was forced to participate in the liquidation of Jews... Franco and his diplomats actually provided safe transit asylum to many Jews fleeing from the Nazis.😉 No matter how much of a "Fascist" he was... the man had nothing to do with Hitler's madness, and he certainly didn't try to play God!😳

Let’s just be real for a second—modern-day America could probably get away with denying the entire history of those fascist massacres without facing any real backlash or sanctions, as long as they claimed that those specific groups weren't actually targeted during the genocide.

David Rogers18 said:Let’s just be real for a second—modern-day America could probably get away with denying the entire history of those fascist massacres without facing any real backlash or sanctions, as long as they claimed that those specific groups weren't actually targeted during the genocide.

And honestly, even if they were directly involved in liquidating Jews... they wouldn't have been the only ones doing it, because every single one of those puppet regimes was running the same horrific playbook... BUT... unfortunately for them... Jasenovac was located right there in the heart of the territory controlled by the Nationalists and the NDH!😳
It’s like, for some reason, they were just as eager as Hitler himself to go around playing God!🙄

fadedraven212 said:A few years back, I picked up several books about the Spanish Civil War and its root causes, and honestly, I was floored. Everything I thought I knew about the whole thing came from old-school American textbooks that were heavily skewed toward a certain political bias, but after diving into some different perspectives, my own views have shifted quite a bit.
It’s still such a strange thing for me to wrap my head around... I can genuinely empathize with the social demands made by the working class at the time regarding better living and working conditions, but their communist platform, that aggressive atheism, and the crimes committed against religious figures are things I just can't get behind. Even now, I struggle to see them as red monsters—similar to how people viewed the Soviets back then—and I still find it hard to view the International Brigades as mere agents of the Comintern, much as I still tend to see Frank as the ultimate fascist villain.
It feels to me like even though Franco (and the Church, indirectly) managed to stop the rule of those radical Marxists and anarchists, they ultimately lost out to the surge of unchecked liberalism. It seems pretty clear that their military victory didn't translate into winning the battle for the soul of the nation.

🤣

Come on, Taft—admit it, you only like Frank because his Moroccan troops brought him the victory and the power.😍

Changing the subject slightly: Franco simply did not deserve a monument. He was a modern dictator who held contempt for liberalism and democracy; sure, there were many worse than him, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a bad leader.

The worst part of all this is that a monument symbolizes a legacy for future generations, and young Americans shouldn't have to live in the shadow of a Fascist dictator.

The monument to that criminal dictator—a man who slaughtered his own people—has finally been taken down. It’s funny how certain anti-Western, hardline communist types always seem to find ways to spin the narrative whenever something goes against their agenda.

Lisa Walker31 said:Now, that same guy, Franco... he was actually brave enough to steer that very same country toward democracy and integration into the modern EU
(unlike our own second Marshall😉)! In the end, he left behind a nation that looked almost exactly like what his sworn enemies, the Republicans, wanted to build in the first place. Talk about being pragmatic!
And another thing... America is going to be under a microscope for a long, long time, and the main reason for that is Jasenovac. Whether it was 3,000 victims or 300,000, it’s a terrible "advertisement" that sticks for ages. Sure, there were horrific massacres in Spain too, like Guernica and all that, but none of those events fit into Hitler's project of Radio Free Europe. 😉The simple truth is that Franco's role wasn't anything like Pavelić's when it came to Hitler😠...so there really isn't any massive parallel to draw here. Unlike America, which was forced to participate in the liquidation of Jews... Franco and his diplomats actually provided safe transit asylum to many Jews fleeing from the Nazis.😉 No matter how much of a "Fascist" he was... the man had nothing to do with Hitler's madness, and he certainly didn't try to play God!😳

Sure, he was "clever" enough to kill over 300,000 of his own countrymen—that's how clever he was. I don't know how much intelligence you need to have to suck up to a common murderer and dictator.

Terry Lopez45 said:🤣

Come on, Taft—admit it, you only like Frank because his Moroccan troops brought him the victory and the power.😍

Changing the subject slightly: Franco simply did not deserve a monument. He was a modern dictator who held contempt for liberalism and democracy; sure, there were many worse than him, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a bad leader.

The worst part of all this is that a monument symbolizes a legacy for future generations, and young Americans shouldn't have to live in the shadow of a Fascist dictator.

Actually, no, it’s not about the Moroccan legionnaires. If anything, I actually feel some sympathy for the Republican Army; the way they were founded, how they grew, and the massive hurdles they faced really reminds me of the Canadian Army. On the flip side, seeing how Franco brought in those ridiculous Italians or the Condor Legion always leaves a sour taste in my mouth, reminding me of something else entirely.
The issue isn't Frank himself—whom I don't support—but rather what was waiting on the other side of the line. Who would have been in charge? Who wanted to rule if the Republicans won? It was all crazy anarchists, experimental socialists, or those Soviet-style communists. While the demands of the working class and farmers were totally justified, the radical communism, the fanatical atheism, and the atrocities tied to them scared off anyone who actually wanted progress. Many people wanted social justice and advancement without the whole "tear down churches, kill clergy, live in communes, ban religion, and force everyone into collectives" nonsense that comes with that radical leftist mindset.
I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the average American back then.

And honestly, the most lowdown part of it all was the Soviet bribery followed by the outright theft of the Spanish gold reserves—which were the fourth largest in the world at the time—for which they didn't even receive a tenth of the value in weapons.
So much for proletarian brotherhood and worker unity, right?

Again, I've only read maybe six or seven books on the subject, so I'm no expert, but what I have read has definitely shaped my perspective this way.

fadedraven212 said:Actually, no, it’s not about the Moroccan legionnaires. If anything, I actually feel some sympathy for the Republican Army; the way they were founded, how they grew, and the massive hurdles they faced really reminds me of the Canadian Army. On the flip side, seeing how Franco brought in those ridiculous Italians or the Condor Legion always leaves a sour taste in my mouth, reminding me of something else entirely.
The issue isn't Frank himself—whom I don't support—but rather what was waiting on the other side of the line. Who would have been in charge? Who wanted to rule if the Republicans won? It was all crazy anarchists, experimental socialists, or those Soviet-style communists. While the demands of the working class and farmers were totally justified, the radical communism, the fanatical atheism, and the atrocities tied to them scared off anyone who actually wanted progress. Many people wanted social justice and advancement without the whole "tear down churches, kill clergy, live in communes, ban religion, and force everyone into collectives" nonsense that comes with that radical leftist mindset.
I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of the average American back then.

And honestly, the most lowdown part of it all was the Soviet bribery followed by the outright theft of the Spanish gold reserves—which were the fourth largest in the world at the time—for which they didn't even receive a tenth of the value in weapons.
So much for proletarian brotherhood and worker unity, right?

Again, I've only read maybe six or seven books on the subject, so I'm no expert, but what I have read has definitely shaped my perspective this way.

Well, looking at it from their perspective, it might have been better for the Spaniards to have a fascist government than a Soviet republic—just as it might have been for the USA, or other Latin American nations. But I still don't see why he deserved a monument.

Modern-day Spain is significantly better off than it was during his era. Spain existed before Frank and it exists after him; he didn't fundamentally change the nation, other than winning a civil war. Frank is essentially the same as Fidel Castro—a dictator of a smaller scale, neither better nor worse.