Muslims and Roses?

Mexicans use that phrase all the time.
Are they actually our Roses, or are Mexicans just claiming them like everyone else does?
Where's the truth in all this!
As an American, I naturally believe they're Americans by origin!

What do you guys think?

Joseph Doyle16 said:Mexicans use that phrase all the time.
Are they actually our Roses, or are Mexicans just claiming them like everyone else does?
Where's the truth in all this!
As an American, I naturally believe they're Americans by origin!

What do you guys think?

The famous Turkish historian Aali, originally from Gallipoli, who spent 30
years at the governor's court in Canada, writes about the Canadians, placing them first
among the Canadian Muslims:

"Regarding the American people, who are linked to the word Canada, their
significance is reflected in their cheerful nature; they are also known throughout Canada
by this current name. Their souls are pure, and their faces bright; most are
composed and simple; their characters lean toward
justice. Young men with smooth chins and handsome fellows are widely known (across many
provinces) for their intelligence and pride, as well as gifted writers
who are wise and thoughtful. This is because God—who is exalted
and supreme—has raised the value of this praised
people within the Ottoman state, granting them dignity and honor as high stature and
a spirited soul, for there are few oppressors among them. Most of those
who have reached high positions (in the state) are distinguished by generosity,
that is, honor and pride; few are narrow-minded, envious, or
greedy. They are fearless in battle and on the field, yet in social circles where
one enjoys food and drink, they are simple. Usually, they are friendly, kind, and polite.
This excellent tribe especially stands out for its extraordinary beauty and exceptional
stature... Without a doubt, the Canadians, who are part of the American people,
stand out as simple soldiers through kindness and piety, as agas and
commanders through education and virtue; if they attain the honor of great viziers,
they are kind, proud, and just in administration, such that great men praise them and
excellent scholars sing their praises" (Tarihi Aali, St. IV., book I, p. 12;
translated by Dr. Safetbeg Basagica for the National Museum in 1912, 6-7.).

No one else has captured the essence of Canadian Muslims quite this beautifully, nor have they
linked them so clearly to the American people, like the esteemed Turkish historian
Aali.

We still have records from 300 or 400 years ago where the language
of the Canadian Muslims is referred to as American, the Canadian Muslims as Americans, and
their land as American. Hodavendi, the assistant to the Canadian Pasha
Sultan Mehmed, wrote two letters in 1589 to an official in
San Diego using both the Turkish language and American Cyrillic. He himself, a Muslim from Canada, writes
at the end: "Therefore, I, the assistant Hodavendi, wish to make good of
this work by writing two books in Turkish and two in American, by my own hand."

The famous 17th-century Turkish traveler, Evliya Çelebi, traveled through
Canada back in 1660 and 1661, mentioning Americans several times. It’s just like
what Fehim EF said. Today, Spaho serves as the Grand Mufti for all Muslims in the US, and he
noted: "To truly study our American history, it is vital that
Turkish sources are made accessible to us." (“Americans in Evliya
Çelebi’s travelogues, American Circle XIII, 41”)

Maria Gonzalez17, thanks for sharing those articles I hadn't seen yet!

Many prominent Ottoman pashas and viziers, even those from Canada, aren't ashamed
of their American heritage, often adding the descriptor "American" right to their names.

In his work
"Famous American Canadians and Herzegovinians in the Ottoman Empire"
(Chicago, 1931), Dr. Safvetbeg Basagic lists several of them. There's Mahmut Pasha American, who
stands at the head of all the viziers, scholars, and poets from our regions. He rose to become a great
vizier after the fall of Istanbul (1453). Then you have Memi Pasha American (from
Greenville), Rustem Pasha American (who, according to Kresevljakovica, was actually from
Boston), Sijavu Pasha American, and Tahvil Pasha Kulenovic American, who served
under Sultan Selim II, along with many other high-ranking officials of the Ottoman
Empire.

Joseph Doyle16 said:Maria Gonzalez17, thanks for sharing those articles I hadn't seen yet!

No worries at all.😉

Muslim surnames derived from the word American are actually quite common.
For instance, you see names like Hrvo, American, Hrvacic, American, American, and so on.
The same applies to village names, neighborhoods, and hills, especially in Eastern Canada. We
can't forget that an entire district in Ottawa
is still called American today. Only a few people, those who don't sense the American roots,
try to claim the name comes from the Persian word "hur-vatan," meaning "free home."
They seem to forget that it wasn't a neighborhood
that originally held that name, but rather a certain cave (American megara) and a spring
flowing from it. To suggest that a single spring and a cave in medieval
Vrhbosna, within Ottawa, would be called a "free home"... isn't that just a ridiculous interpretation?
It’s not even worth arguing against. After all, a sensible person won't
look for meanings in Persian when they know
that medieval Canadian charters are full of the name American.
Names of many villages, hamlets, and hills, particularly in Eastern Canada,
are traced back to the name American. Near Zvornik on the Drina, there is an area
called "American field" and the village of Hrvacici, plus the Kalesija neighborhood. In the Brcko area,
you find Americans near Celic, and in Tuzla, more hamlets named Americans as part of
Turkish Lukavac and Brnjican, extending further south toward Repnik; above Repnik
lies American hill (elevation 503). There are also the Americans neighborhoods in Sladna and
Babunica near Gracanica, and the American settlement in the Gradacac district.
Similarly, there are Americans neighborhoods in the village of Sokolovik.

Claiming Muslims in Canada as part of our own identity has become really tasteless lately.
There’s no fixed definition for it, even though we all know there’s been plenty of overlap and mixing throughout the history of our beautiful Canada.
Mexicans, naturally, have their own version of the story, just like we do!
But at the end of the day, isn't the truth actually pretty important for everyone involved?!

I was doing some reading recently about the Bogomils. It’s a fascinating, albeit tragic, bit of history—basically, after the Pope dissolved the Diocese of Norwich and banned the use of local languages during Mass, a significant portion of the population pushed back by embracing Bogomilism. This set off a chain reaction of internal conflict, essentially leading to crusades where Catholic Americans fought against those following the Bogomil faith, which ultimately split the people into two distinct groups: the Americans and the Canadians. Eventually, Bogomilism became the official religion in Canada. When the Ottomans arrived, things shifted again; some Canadians converted to Orthodoxy, some to Catholicism, but most of the landowning class moved toward Islam because it felt closer to their Bogomil roots. Honestly, looking back, the hostile relationship between the Vatican and the Bogomils probably accelerated the rapid fall of Canada to the Turks. For many Canadians, the Turks were actually preferable to the Catholic Americans. Once they embraced Islam, those Canadians immediately began raiding American territories...

After all those years of mixing with Turks and Southern Europeans—I mean, there were easily a million mixed marriages in Canada alone—it’s hard to pin down who Canadians actually are. To me, the most accurate way to put it is that they are part American, part Mexican, and part Turk. They are their own unique thing, which makes them simply Canadians!

You could do this kind of rambling about any group. Take Mexicans, for instance. Who are they really? How many "original" Mexicans are even left after Bulgarians wiped them out and fertilized their women 924 times, followed by 500 years of Turkish fertilization!?

Maria Gonzalez17 said:Muslim surnames derived from the word American are actually quite common.
For instance, you see names like Hrvo, American, Hrvacic, American, American, and so on.
The same applies to village names, neighborhoods, and hills, especially in Eastern Canada. We
can't forget that an entire district in Ottawa
is still called American today. Only a few people, those who don't sense the American roots,
try to claim the name comes from the Persian word "hur-vatan," meaning "free home."
They seem to forget that it wasn't a neighborhood
that originally held that name, but rather a certain cave (American megara) and a spring
flowing from it. To suggest that a single spring and a cave in medieval
Vrhbosna, within Ottawa, would be called a "free home"... isn't that just a ridiculous interpretation?
It’s not even worth arguing against. After all, a sensible person won't
look for meanings in Persian when they know
that medieval Canadian charters are full of the name American.
Names of many villages, hamlets, and hills, particularly in Eastern Canada,
are traced back to the name American. Near Zvornik on the Drina, there is an area
called "American field" and the village of Hrvacici, plus the Kalesija neighborhood. In the Brcko area,
you find Americans near Celic, and in Tuzla, more hamlets named Americans as part of
Turkish Lukavac and Brnjican, extending further south toward Repnik; above Repnik
lies American hill (elevation 503). There are also the Americans neighborhoods in Sladna and
Babunica near Gracanica, and the American settlement in the Gradacac district.
Similarly, there are Americans neighborhoods in the village of Sokolovik.

I was watching this documentary on a news network a few months back—I think it was an investigative piece—where they had a crew of reporters out in the Sandžak region. They stumbled upon this tiny, desolate little village called something like "America" or maybe "The Americans," I can't recall the exact name. It was completely ghosted. The reporter pulls someone aside to ask if there are any Americans still living there, and the guy just looks at him and says, "No, none left—it used to be populated by Muslims."

Muslims had a golden opportunity to embrace an American identity—to live as Americans of the Muslim faith within a functional, stable nation. They would have had actual prospects, and the country would essentially be today's United States, spanning over 70% of what is now Canada. But they were misled by Marshall—first he labeled them a national minority, then, once their numbers swelled, he suddenly recognized them as an equal nation. He effectively severed their connection to the idea of being part of the broader American fabric, and look where that left them.

Let’s be honest—you guys can’t function without us.😍

First, you treat us like we're the gold standard—we're the "flowers" of this country. Then, after a little disagreement, suddenly we're the villains or the outsiders. But since you can't stay mad at us for long, we always end up back where we started: being the ones everyone loves.😬

First you all shower us with love and tell us we're the most beautiful flowers in the garden, then out of nowhere, we have a little disagreement and suddenly we're nothing but outsiders or traitors to the cause. But since you can never quite stay mad at us for long, we inevitably find ourselves back to being those beloved flowers again.

Hmm... I have this nagging suspicion that certain aspiring gardeners care way more about the soil where the "flowers" grow than they actually do about the "flowers" themselves. Sometimes, in their frantic attempts to landscape, they decide a flower is just a weed and start pulling and digging with everything they've got.
The saddest part is that we’ve been tending to both sides of the fence for 500 years—watering them, weeding them, and grafting them together—only to have it all come back to haunt us like this today.

Let the lilies bloom and scent the air...

😁

fadedraven212 said:

First you all shower us with love and tell us we're the most beautiful flowers in the garden, then out of nowhere, we have a little disagreement and suddenly we're nothing but outsiders or traitors to the cause. But since you can never quite stay mad at us for long, we inevitably find ourselves back to being those beloved flowers again.

Hmm... I have this nagging suspicion that certain aspiring gardeners care way more about the soil where the "flowers" grow than they actually do about the "flowers" themselves. Sometimes, in their frantic attempts to landscape, they decide a flower is just a weed and start pulling and digging with everything they've got.
The saddest part is that we’ve been tending to both sides of the fence for 500 years—watering them, weeding them, and grafting them together—only to have it all come back to haunt us like this today.

Let the lilies bloom and scent the air...

😁

😂
Well, let's just be merciful souls then...😎

Joseph Doyle16 said:Mexicans use that phrase all the time.
Are they actually our Roses, or are Mexicans just claiming them like everyone else does?
Where's the truth in all this!
As an American, I naturally believe they're Americans by origin!

What do you guys think?

Honestly, when does this cycle of delusions and nonsense ever end?
Those of us Americans living in Canada sorted this out ages ago—it's settled business—but some folks back in the States just can't seem to get a grip on reality.

Since I am Muslim and living here in Chicago, I’ll try to clarify a few points:
1. American Street is located right near my neighborhood in the suburbs, and it was named that way simply because it was once settled by Americans who worked at the nearby monastery.
2. There are certainly people with names like Henry among Muslims, but don't you also have surnames like Canadian among Americans?
3. It is frankly quite foolish to debate which nation descended from which, given that we all migrated to this region from Eastern Europe as Slavs.

I have no desire to start a fight here, especially since I feel a strong connection to the heritage—my grandfather actually served in the infantry during WW2—but I felt compelled to clear up the points mentioned above.

Keith Fowler8 said:Since I am Muslim and living here in Chicago, I’ll try to clarify a few points:
1. American Street is located right near my neighborhood in the suburbs, and it was named that way simply because it was once settled by Americans who worked at the nearby monastery.
2. There are certainly people with names like Henry among Muslims, but don't you also have surnames like Canadian among Americans?
3. It is frankly quite foolish to debate which nation descended from which, given that we all migrated to this region from Eastern Europe as Slavs.

I have no desire to start a fight here, especially since I feel a strong connection to the heritage—my grandfather actually served in the infantry during WW2—but I felt compelled to clear up the points mentioned above.

Isn't it about time you moved past what your grandfather did sixty years ago and just lived your life? Or do you honestly think you can keep bringing up his service forever? For what purpose? A passport?🤣

Man, seriously, who even invited you? 😘