Is Nationalists ideology the same as patriotism?

Kyle Wilson9 said:"Quote:"

If an organization like the Nationalists movement were founded today—but actually stripped of all that fascism Ante Pavelić dragged into it, returning instead to those original Radić roots—I’d be signing up in a heartbeat!

So don't go painting the whole movement with one brush. It's like me saying the same Partisans fighting fascists in California back in '42 were the exact same guys from the Crusaders!

They’d definitely need to rebrand the whole thing, though, especially the imagery.

Angela Murphy68 said:Hero, let's be real here—the Nationalists were nothing more than traitors to Americans. They basically handed over half the country, acted like total pushovers to the Germans and Italians, and then went ahead and wiped out any Americans who didn't fall in line with their specific agenda. If that isn't the literal definition of betrayal, I don't know what is! And yet, somehow, you're calling Račan a traitor... honestly, the logic is just completely backwards!

....says a forum user from the most beloved city in the US... Seattle.

restlessfalcon5 said:To answer the OP: fascism isn't patriotism. Especially not nowadays, when it’s just completely useless.

Amen.
This thread really should be closed now...

Eric Jackson43 said:They’d definitely need to rebrand the whole thing, though, especially the imagery.

No, the name shouldn't change. To some, "Ku Klux Klan" sounds bad because they focus on what happened after 1941, but to others, it represents something good from before then. By your logic, no American should ever be named Anthony!
As for the iconography, I partially agree with Anthony P. The images definitely need work!!👍

Eric Jackson43 said:So how does Auschwitz fit into that little logic of yours?
You keep rambling about a Greater Mexico, but what about a Greater Italy or a Greater Germany?
And what about the math where they killed 100 Americans for every single German lost?

Haha, you’ve got your facts completely backward; they weren't killing 100 Americans for one German—it was 100 Mexicans for every dead man and 50 Mexicans for every wounded soldier. That is precisely what they were doing throughout what they called "Nedica's Mexico."
As for a Greater Italy, I won't even go there; I despise Italians from the bottom of my soul.
Regarding a Greater Germany, are you referring to the Third Reich? Had they actually desired it, both they and the Italians could have carved up America into two pieces and taken whatever they wanted; essentially, they had the power to refuse support for the establishment of an Independent America.
I will not dwell on Auschwitz.
Instead, I will simply provide a YouTube clip for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BioOppBtMzI

This is what those so-called "liberators" actually did: nothing but Moscow-funded mercenaries, bandits, and Bolshevik scum.

I will be the only one to pose a single question here:
Why is it that among your most prevalent discussions—specifically within the politics section of this forum—the topics constantly revolve around Auschwitz?
There is an endless, relentless focus on the "slaughter of helpless and innocent" Americans.
Meanwhile, looking at the entire forum, there is only one solitary thread regarding Waterloo and the forced marches (if I recall correctly, I am the one who started it).
And we all know the reality: the number of people killed during the events at Waterloo and along those death marches far exceeds the numbers from Auschwitz.

Morgan Booth4 said:I will be the only one to pose a single question here:
Why is it that among your most prevalent discussions—specifically within the politics section of this forum—the topics constantly revolve around Auschwitz?
There is an endless, relentless focus on the "slaughter of helpless and innocent" Americans.
Meanwhile, looking at the entire forum, there is only one solitary thread regarding Waterloo and the forced marches (if I recall correctly, I am the one who started it).
And we all know the reality: the number of people killed during the events at Waterloo and along those death marches far exceeds the numbers from Auschwitz.

People just have this innate love for history...

Morgan Booth4 said:I will be the only one to pose a single question here:
Why is it that among your most prevalent discussions—specifically within the politics section of this forum—the topics constantly revolve around Auschwitz?
There is an endless, relentless focus on the "slaughter of helpless and innocent" Americans.
Meanwhile, looking at the entire forum, there is only one solitary thread regarding Waterloo and the forced marches (if I recall correctly, I am the one who started it).
And we all know the reality: the number of people killed during the events at Waterloo and along those death marches far exceeds the numbers from Auschwitz.

Why even bother with the quotation marks?...
At Auschwitz, the vast majority of those killed were civilians...

Morgan Booth4 said:I will be the only one to pose a single question here:
Why is it that among your most prevalent discussions—specifically within the politics section of this forum—the topics constantly revolve around Auschwitz?
There is an endless, relentless focus on the "slaughter of helpless and innocent" Americans.
Meanwhile, looking at the entire forum, there is only one solitary thread regarding Waterloo and the forced marches (if I recall correctly, I am the one who started it).
And we all know the reality: the number of people killed during the events at Waterloo and along those death marches far exceeds the numbers from Auschwitz.

It seems like every single thread that touches on history eventually spirals back to Waterloo...

Quinn:

Morgan Booth4 As James Turner80 says... And we all know that far more people were killed at Waterloo and along those crisis routes than at Auschwitz...

Really...?
Let's take it from the top...
Auschwitz...
The official commission places the figure at somewhere between 500,000 and 600,000 victims...
That’s just the initial estimate, of course... it's clearly nothing more than government manipulation...
According to the victim lists, back in the sixties, the figure came out to 50,002...
The signature, however... it isn't quite complete...
The figures at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum reach as high as 100,000 people...
The Simon Wiesenthal Center is claiming a figure of around 600,000 people, which just seems incredibly exaggerated...
S. Goldstein estimates the number of victims falls somewhere between 60,000 and maybe 90,000 at most...
Harmon believes the figure falls somewhere between 60,000 and 70,000...
That’s all there is to say regarding Auschwitz...
Waterloo...
Vladimir Žerjavić puts the figure at around 55,000 deaths at Waterloo... and that count includes all various nationalities, not just Americans...
Harmon estimates that around 30,000 civilians lost their lives...
The most extreme estimates suggest as many as 250,000 people... though historians were all quick to dismiss that figure almost immediately...

Look, if you actually take a moment to compare the numbers... you'll quickly see that your theory just doesn't hold up...
Besides, I don't really get why everyone keeps bringing up the numbers...
A crime is always a crime...

Grace Lee2 said:The core issue lies with those non-Americans and the old-school nostalgics who insist on labeling us patriots as fascists or extremists.
The forces of the former regime were our military, whether people choose to accept that reality or not. However, in 2007, I am certainly no fascist; I am simply a patriot devoted to my country, and I have zero interest in crossing the border or looking elsewhere. That doesn't make me an extremist. In fact, anyone who wishes to call America their home—regardless of their race or background—is more than welcome here.
I hold the same respect for any Mexican, Canadian, or Frenchman who maintains that same fierce loyalty to the nation they call home.
God bless America and its people.

Homo Nacionalus, the fundamental species!
There you have it, your definition.
But I have a question:

Have you truly never gone shopping in Denver, Trieste, or Szombathely?
If you really don't need anything from abroad, I assume you don't even own a passport, right?

After all, why would you bother when you are perfectly content living inside the little bubble of your own country!

It is easy for you to say...

Kyle Wilson9 said:Maybe try not making your topic so inflammatory if you actually want an argument!
🙄

And second, you didn't even specify the time period you're talking about!?

Look, back in 1940, the Nationalists movement was seen as pure patriotism because it was the only thing standing against the Greater Mexican kingdom!
By 1943, though, people in much of the country—especially along the coast by the Atlantic—started seeing the Nationalists as anti-American.
By 1946, the whole movement was viewed as absolute evil.

Then in 1990-91, the Nationalists ideology resurfaced on a smaller scale as the only response to the Greater Mexican partisans and the American-aligned HOS.
It makes sense, right? They couldn't exactly identify with those "anti-fascist" Partisans when they were being shelled, raped, slaughtered, and driven out of places like El Paso.

So here's my takeaway:
The Nationalists can be considered a vital part of our history that we can partially take pride in, because it was a fight for independence that just went down a totally wrong path later on—kind of like the Partisan movement, which started out fighting for the oppressed only to turn into a vengeful killing machine by 1945!

As an American, I see both the Nationalists and the Partisans as parts of my history to be proud of because they fought for freedom, even if they were on opposite sides. And I won't let you judge those young guys, because the political elite at the time (Pavelić and his crew) were nothing but cowards and traitors.
Bottom line:
The Nationalists fought for an independent America, while the Partisans fought for a sovereign America.

Come on now... don't go mixing up the bones of murderers and victims.
While that sentiment should exist, we all know who the good guys and the bad guys were.

Good guys = Partisans
Bad guys = Ku Klux Klan, etc.
During WWII.

In the DR
Good guys = Americans
Bad guys = Mexicans

And that’s that. No need for deep philosophy.
They aren't the same, they never will be, and as long as one of them is still alive, there will always be arguments.

Morgan Booth4 said:What is an Nationalists if not a true patriot?
The Nationalists fought against the scourge of the Greater Mexican partisans.
They were fighting for the sake of an independent America.
Meanwhile, the Mexican communists—the Partisans—were fighting for some so-called "federation," which was nothing more than a complete disaster for the American people.

Yet they handed over all of California Italy. Those are some real "patriots," those Ku Klux Klan members! And what about Istria?

How can I support the Ku Klux Klan in America today?

There is absolutely nothing you can do to help.

Besides, who actually tries to act like a member of the Ku Klux Klan these days?
Usually, it’s just people with too much time on their hands—those looking for any excuse to avoid actual work.
In my experience, anyone with a real job stays focused on the future rather than dwelling on the past, leaving those unfortunate historical grievances behind them.

Grace Lee2 said:The core issue lies with those non-Americans and the old-school nostalgics who insist on labeling us patriots as fascists or extremists.
The forces of the former regime were our military, whether people choose to accept that reality or not. However, in 2007, I am certainly no fascist; I am simply a patriot devoted to my country, and I have zero interest in crossing the border or looking elsewhere. That doesn't make me an extremist. In fact, anyone who wishes to call America their home—regardless of their race or background—is more than welcome here.
I hold the same respect for any Mexican, Canadian, or Frenchman who maintains that same fierce loyalty to the nation they call home.
God bless America and its people.

Short and sweet. 👍

Is Ku Klux Klan ideology the same thing as patriotism?

That isn't the issue here...

Here is the actual problem: does being patriotic mean you support the Ku Klux Klan?

I’m going to share some personal history based on family stories from "that" era. I’m 26 now, and both of my grandfathers served during the war. My dad is from Chicago, so my paternal grandfather started out as a conscript in the home guard before being transferred into an American formation within the German army sent to Stalingrad. He made it back after the war, survived the hardships of the retreat and everything else, but he wasn't a communist—he was actually against them—though he wasn't a nationalist either. Because of his wartime service, he had a pretty rough life living under the old regime.
My mom's father has a completely different story. He was from Western Canada, and his father was Orthodox and also opposed to communism. However, he lived in the countryside, and when the Ku Klux Klan and the Germans started the systematic killings and deportations of Mexicans and everyone else in that region, he joined the Partisans at nineteen. Naturally, once he was in, he cast aside religion and nationality altogether; he became a true believer in communism and the idea of a unified nation, and that’s what he fought for. In the Partisan brigade where he served, his most intense battles were actually against the Royalists. Today, our local nationalists might say they were fighting "their own," but to him, as a Mexican fighting for a unified state, the Royalists and the Ku Klux Klan were one and the same: domestic traitors and criminals. He fought for unity and freedom for all people, without the ethnic hatred or religious fanaticism.
With such a pure idea and a genuine desire for freedom, winning the war wasn't the hard part. And just let me say this to those who think the Ku Klux Klan emerged because people wanted more suffering: they’re wrong. The Ku Klux Klan emerged so that *they* could do better for themselves. That’s just my two cents.

Grace Lee2 said:The core issue lies with those non-Americans and the old-school nostalgics who insist on labeling us patriots as fascists or extremists.
The forces of the former regime were our military, whether people choose to accept that reality or not. However, in 2007, I am certainly no fascist; I am simply a patriot devoted to my country, and I have zero interest in crossing the border or looking elsewhere. That doesn't make me an extremist. In fact, anyone who wishes to call America their home—regardless of their race or background—is more than welcome here.
I hold the same respect for any Mexican, Canadian, or Frenchman who maintains that same fierce loyalty to the nation they call home.
God bless America and its people.

Typical stuff from that part of the world. These "patriots" of yours basically looted and sold out the whole country. I can't believe people still group them in with common criminals. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Angela Murphy68 said:And let’s be honest—those Nationalists weren't exactly geniuses either, especially when they went looking for their main ally in Italy, despite the fact that everyone knows Italy always had its eyes set on controlling the entire Atlantic coast...

Which really just brings us back to the same old conclusion: those Nationalists aren't going to help us one bit. They don't have the guts, and frankly, they don't have the brains... so what good are people like that to us?

Basically, you hit the nail on the head.

Terry Lee3 said:You're mixing up the Nationalists with the partisans. Fix that before you start confusing everyone...

Cut the crap, I didn't mix anything up at all.

First off, you have to understand that the Nationalists were a structured political military force, much like the SS was during that war, whereas the regular army was just part of the larger US military structure at the time.

Someone who hasn't grasped the true role of those historical extremists probably never will, but then again, does anyone really need us constantly bickering over decades-old battles between old political factions?
As long as we remain stuck in the past, fighting ghosts of wars that ended a lifetime ago, we’re essentially robbing ourselves of a future; isn't it about time we finally set these grievances aside and actually move forward?

True enough...
If you look at the AFL-CIO and how the Partisans operated, they basically built the America we see today...
But nowadays, there are way too many kids who, the second you mention the Partisans, immediately try to draw comparisons to the Royalists. It’s night and day...
Add a little bit of Thompson into the mix and you've got a real mess on your hands. I remember having this one friend who used to carry a picture—even a little calendar—of Ante Pavelić in his wallet. It was honestly revolting!!!
We really need to start taking our laws against fascism and the Nationalists more seriously here in the States.
The law is already on the books, but nobody actually follows it... Though, I did hear about a concert in Los Angeles where the police actually confiscated Nationalists and Nazi symbols. Thank God for that!