It's not about the oil...

If you actually take President Bush at his word when he claims Iraqi oil exports fluctuate between 1.5 and 2.7 million barrels a day, then based on current dollar prices per barrel, it would look like the USA and the United Kingdom ...

... but the reality is that three or four major multinationals overseeing those Iraqi oil exports have raked in nearly $300 billion over the last four years. That’s basically double what American and British taxpayers have poured into this bloody mess in Iraq.

The cost? 130,000 dead Iraqi citizens, half a million people suffering premature deaths from the horrors of war and poisoning, and 3,500 dead soldiers.

http://www.bljesak.info/modules.php?...icle&sid=43218

And then someone has the nerve to ask me who the bigger criminal is, Bush or Saddam.👎

That source you found is top-tier, and honestly, the math behind it is even better... plus, that comment is just absolute gold!

Linda Hughes88 said:That source you found is top-tier, and honestly, the math behind it is even better... plus, that comment is just absolute gold!

Glad you're on the same page.😬
The exact numbers don't even have to be perfect; the big picture has been obvious for a long time now. I guess some people just need it spelled out for them, but what can you really do?

I completely agree that the invasion of Iraq was hands down one of the biggest blunders in American history, and honestly, Bush was an absolute clown of cosmic proportions; the whole neoconservative crew was just a massive collection of amateurs who were totally out of touch with how the post-Cold War world actually works, but don't you really see that the true killers in Iraq are the religious fundamentalists from both the Sunni and Shia sides?

For instance, the real killer is someone like al-Baghdadi, who declared something like nineteen new Islamic dogmas, claiming that Christians and Jews living among Muslims aren't even protected as dhimmis anymore, and that any Sunnis participating in the Iraqi government are apostates—basically marked for death right alongside the Shias.

The actual engine of this slaughter is al-Qaeda and those Sunni fundamentalists who kicked this whole bloodbath off by destroying the mosque in the Samara Desert.

And it’s the exact same story with the Shias and their various vampiric, messianic cults that preach death and chaos as a necessary precursor to the arrival of the Mahdi; their leaders are simultaneously leading special death squads for the Mahdi's army, and their worst psychopathic killer, al-Dera, is currently hiding out in Iran (which explains why even Ahmadinejad seems to believe that chaos is a prerequisite for the Mahdi's return).
The atrocities committed by the Mahdi's army have become so extreme that even Muqtada al-Sadr is starting to purge movement leaders—like Hasan Salih, the leader of the Mahdi's army in Baghdad—because they are just too deeply mired in bloodshed.

Americans essentially found themselves in a helpless situation because of their own incompetence and the sheer failure of their analysts to predict what would happen, but blaming them directly for the deaths isn't quite right—the responsibility lies with the ones doing the killing, and those killers are the Iraqis themselves, specifically the extreme Sunni and apocalyptic Shia movements.
The Americans are guilty of opening Pandora's box on a massive scale, but that is still a lesser evil compared to the darkness lurking within the extremist factions of the Iraqi people.

boldgardener93 said:Glad you're on the same page.😬
The exact numbers don't even have to be perfect; the big picture has been obvious for a long time now. I guess some people just need it spelled out for them, but what can you really do?

It’s not that they aren't precise, it's that the entire foundation is built wrong from the ground up. Everything else is just wishful thinking on your part.

northernheron97 said:I completely agree that the invasion of Iraq was hands down one of the biggest blunders in American history, and honestly, Bush was an absolute clown of cosmic proportions; the whole neoconservative crew was just a massive collection of amateurs who were totally out of touch with how the post-Cold War world actually works, but don't you really see that the true killers in Iraq are the religious fundamentalists from both the Sunni and Shia sides?

For instance, the real killer is someone like al-Baghdadi, who declared something like nineteen new Islamic dogmas, claiming that Christians and Jews living among Muslims aren't even protected as dhimmis anymore, and that any Sunnis participating in the Iraqi government are apostates—basically marked for death right alongside the Shias.

The actual engine of this slaughter is al-Qaeda and those Sunni fundamentalists who kicked this whole bloodbath off by destroying the mosque in the Samara Desert.

And it’s the exact same story with the Shias and their various vampiric, messianic cults that preach death and chaos as a necessary precursor to the arrival of the Mahdi; their leaders are simultaneously leading special death squads for the Mahdi's army, and their worst psychopathic killer, al-Dera, is currently hiding out in Iran (which explains why even Ahmadinejad seems to believe that chaos is a prerequisite for the Mahdi's return).
The atrocities committed by the Mahdi's army have become so extreme that even Muqtada al-Sadr is starting to purge movement leaders—like Hasan Salih, the leader of the Mahdi's army in Baghdad—because they are just too deeply mired in bloodshed.

Americans essentially found themselves in a helpless situation because of their own incompetence and the sheer failure of their analysts to predict what would happen, but blaming them directly for the deaths isn't quite right—the responsibility lies with the ones doing the killing, and those killers are the Iraqis themselves, specifically the extreme Sunni and apocalyptic Shia movements.
The Americans are guilty of opening Pandora's box on a massive scale, but that is still a lesser evil compared to the darkness lurking within the extremist factions of the Iraqi people.

Fine, if everything is exactly as you claim, why was everything under control during Saddam's era (who was clearly a villain)? Don't just tell me Saddam was somehow stronger than the Americans. On the flip side, if things in Iraq were actually peaceful and settled, what reason would there be for American criminals to stay there? You know the drill: divide and conquer, or more specifically, pump the oil.

Linda Hughes88 said:It’s not that they aren't precise, it's that the entire foundation is built wrong from the ground up. Everything else is just wishful thinking on your part.

My only real wish is for Americans to tuck their tails between their legs and pull out of Iraq.
I have no clue what comes next, but what we're seeing right now is beyond horrific.
And the whole justification for the invasion was Saddam's weapons, wasn't it?

boldgardener93 said:My only real wish is for Americans to tuck their tails between their legs and pull out of Iraq.
I have no clue what comes next, but what we're seeing right now is beyond horrific.
And the whole justification for the invasion was Saddam's weapons, wasn't it?

Look, I am seriously not in the mood to jump into yet another thousandth debate about Iraq, I'm just totally over it.
I was just pointing out how those figures and conclusions in that article were completely off base. Profit means actual earnings, period. And if you just do some super basic math, even the oil revenue from these last four years couldn't possibly hit those numbers. Let's say the average price of oil back in 2006 was $60. You multiply that by the number of days and say, roughly 2 million barrels a day, and you aren't walking away with more than 45 billion. And keep in mind, oil prices were way lower three or four years ago. So, the revenue isn't even anywhere near that massive figure, let alone actual profit. Plus, any oil companies working in Iraq are only grabbing a slice of that pie anyway...

And your final calculation doesn't hold water either. American taxpayers have poured way more than 150 billion dollars into this war in Iraq. Way, way more.
Some people ran the numbers years ago suggesting the total cost of the war would top 2 trillion dollars...

So, we're really supposed to believe this is all about humanitarianism and defending democracy?

boldgardener93 said:Fine, if everything is exactly as you claim, why was everything under control during Saddam's era (who was clearly a villain)? Don't just tell me Saddam was somehow stronger than the Americans. On the flip side, if things in Iraq were actually peaceful and settled, what reason would there be for American criminals to stay there? You know the drill: divide and conquer, or more specifically, pump the oil.

Well, why? I mean, seriously, why was everything so stable for fifty years in America, only for everyone to start killing each other the second Marshall passed away?
Please, don't try to act like you don't understand basic history.

That’s exactly my point. Because things were relatively quiet, they had to manufacture some kind of excuse to justify an invasion and maintain an occupying presence. It’s always easier to pull things off when you stick to a "divide and conquer" strategy. Meanwhile, they’re busy pumping out oil while putting on this whole act about being the world's savior.
I guess Hitler played a similar game when he moved in on us.

boldgardener93 said:Glad you're on the same page.😬
The exact numbers don't even have to be perfect; the big picture has been obvious for a long time now. I guess some people just need it spelled out for them, but what can you really do?

You aren't going to sell that narrative to Linda Hughes88. Even today, she still firmly believes the whole point of the Iraq invasion was to bring democracy and stability to the region... and hey, everyone's entitled to their own perspective, I guess...

northernheron97 said:I completely agree that the invasion of Iraq was hands down one of the biggest blunders in American history, and honestly, Bush was an absolute clown of cosmic proportions; the whole neoconservative crew was just a massive collection of amateurs who were totally out of touch with how the post-Cold War world actually works, but don't you really see that the true killers in Iraq are the religious fundamentalists from both the Sunni and Shia sides?

For instance, the real killer is someone like al-Baghdadi, who declared something like nineteen new Islamic dogmas, claiming that Christians and Jews living among Muslims aren't even protected as dhimmis anymore, and that any Sunnis participating in the Iraqi government are apostates—basically marked for death right alongside the Shias.

The actual engine of this slaughter is al-Qaeda and those Sunni fundamentalists who kicked this whole bloodbath off by destroying the mosque in the Samara Desert.

And it’s the exact same story with the Shias and their various vampiric, messianic cults that preach death and chaos as a necessary precursor to the arrival of the Mahdi; their leaders are simultaneously leading special death squads for the Mahdi's army, and their worst psychopathic killer, al-Dera, is currently hiding out in Iran (which explains why even Ahmadinejad seems to believe that chaos is a prerequisite for the Mahdi's return).
The atrocities committed by the Mahdi's army have become so extreme that even Muqtada al-Sadr is starting to purge movement leaders—like Hasan Salih, the leader of the Mahdi's army in Baghdad—because they are just too deeply mired in bloodshed.

Americans essentially found themselves in a helpless situation because of their own incompetence and the sheer failure of their analysts to predict what would happen, but blaming them directly for the deaths isn't quite right—the responsibility lies with the ones doing the killing, and those killers are the Iraqis themselves, specifically the extreme Sunni and apocalyptic Shia movements.
The Americans are guilty of opening Pandora's box on a massive scale, but that is still a lesser evil compared to the darkness lurking within the extremist factions of the Iraqi people.

You know what's actually wild about all this?? It's the fact that the top Shia religious leaders are out here claiming the USA was behind the destruction of that mosque instead of the Sunnis?!

If the goal of hitting Iraq is grabbing control over oil supplies, I don't see the big deal. Freedom and democracy are pretty subjective anyway, and a barrel of oil is worth exactly the same whether you're in the States, Iraq, or on Mars. Just ask yourselves: what’s the alternative? If Middle East oil were actually sold on a free market, the USA and Europe wouldn't be able to compete with China's pricing. They'd have to slash production costs—which is just code for cutting worker benefits.

stormyscout11 said:If the goal of hitting Iraq is grabbing control over oil supplies, I don't see the big deal. Freedom and democracy are pretty subjective anyway, and a barrel of oil is worth exactly the same whether you're in the States, Iraq, or on Mars. Just ask yourselves: what’s the alternative? If Middle East oil were actually sold on a free market, the USA and Europe wouldn't be able to compete with China's pricing. They'd have to slash production costs—which is just code for cutting worker benefits.

Bravo!!!
So you're basically advocating for murder and theft. It's honestly wild seeing the kinds of people hanging out on this forum.👎

Roger Hughes said:You know what's actually wild about all this?? It's the fact that the top Shia religious leaders are out here claiming the USA was behind the destruction of that mosque instead of the Sunnis?!

Oh, come on... do you seriously buy that?
You can find plenty of things to criticize about Americans, but I just don't think they operate at that level of absurdity; besides, if you consider that the day that mosque was leveled in the Samara Desert, the US effectively lost the war in Iraq, why on earth would they go out of their way to dig their own grave like that?

boldgardener93 said:Bravo!!!
So you're basically advocating for murder and theft. It's honestly wild seeing the kinds of people hanging out on this forum.👎

Just imagine if Russia controlled the Middle East and used oil to blackmail Europe the same way they do with gas. Imagine how much theft and death we'd be seeing then.

boldgardener93 said:That’s exactly my point. Because things were relatively quiet, they had to manufacture some kind of excuse to justify an invasion and maintain an occupying presence. It’s always easier to pull things off when you stick to a "divide and conquer" strategy. Meanwhile, they’re busy pumping out oil while putting on this whole act about being the world's savior.
I guess Hitler played a similar game when he moved in on us.

I mean, look at the Canadian province of Alberta. They have enough oil reserves to supply all of North America for the next century, yet, by some miracle, the USA hasn't launched an invasion to seize control of those fields. And honestly, Canada is much closer to home than Iraq ever was. When you factor in the actual "might" 🤣 of the Canadian military, then the whole invasion of Iraq and the astronomical costs associated with it start to look pretty nonsensical. Wouldn't you agree, "expert"? 😲😲

Alright, "expert," if you're really as knowledgeable as you claim, then you should probably realize that Canada is basically just a standard American satellite, so an invasion isn't even necessary. Just imagine a scenario where Canada decides to stop selling oil to the US or suddenly hikes up the prices on us. Then we'll see how much of an "expert" you actually are.
It’s honestly laughable how they blindly follow America's lead in everything. They even shifted their clocks three weeks earlier, just like the US did. And then you get these self-proclaimed geniuses coming out with their "professional" commentary.

stormyscout11 said:Just imagine if Russia controlled the Middle East and used oil to blackmail Europe the same way they do with gas. Imagine how much theft and death we'd be seeing then.

I don't see the connection. Americans already pretty much control everything else anyway.