Thoughts on capitalism...

Joey said:Look, let's settle this once and for all. You guys in the diaspora need to decide if America is a nation with massive social safety nets—you know, that Nordic-style setup with maternity leave and all—or if it’s just pure, unadulterated American capitalism.

You both remind me of those two characters from the Muppet Show who can't be satisfied no matter what happens...

Look, if you need things spoon-fed to you in black and white because it's easier to grasp, then your issue is 🙄
critical thinking, or maybe just blind faith... the red pill versus the blue pill dilemma...

gatto said:Anthony Rodriguez58, this kind of sudden jump into capitalism isn't just an American thing—it’s happening all over the old Eastern Bloc, from Ukraine and Romania to Bulgaria and even the Czech Republic.

What we're really looking at is a clash between two different worlds: that aggressive, cutthroat Anglo-American style of capitalism versus the old-school European way of doing things...
Who's actually going to come out on top? Honestly, I have no clue. 😉

Clarification for Joey🙄
Look, Joey, the US claims to be a social welfare state, but isn't most of that just leftover baggage from the old era—things like public schooling, subsidized healthcare, dental, maternity leave, and all that?
Will any of this actually stick around, or is it all being phased out bit by bit?
If it doesn't stay and things start getting cut, can we even call America a social welfare state anymore?

I honestly wonder how much of a realistic perspective someone can have if they actually believe the US Congress carries out the will of the American people.🙂

Ona007 said:It’s basically a clash between two different systems—that aggressive, Anglo-American style of capitalism versus the old-school European model...
I guess we'll just have to wait and see which one comes out on top. 😉

Solid observation. 👍

goldengull3 said:I’ve got way more options now than I ever did before 1990. Whether it's picking a career, a car, where to live, or where to vacation—everything's opened up.

Well, sure, you’ve got more options compared to what YOU THINK is reality, which is basically just a hangover from the old communist days, but you aren't comparing it to how things actually work out there in the real world where stuff is actually advanced (or isn't).

Take Microsoft, for example. You’ve got a million ways to spec out a PC here, but the problem is that most local tech geeks haven't the slightest clue that half this stuff doesn't even fly overseas because we're lagging so painfully behind. It's the exact same story when you look at Windows.

Or look at cars—over here, having air conditioning is treated like some fancy luxury add-on, while in the rest of the world, it’s a total baseline standard included in the cheapest model on the lot.

Linda Morales said:Or take cars where AC is just an optional extra, even though it’s an absolute necessity when it's sweltering outside—yet they still bundle it into the base price.

Look, trim levels and equipment packages vary from country to country, but things have been shifting rapidly here in the States—especially over the last four or five years since the big buying boom hit. At least you know Americans love to act like they're more important than they are. 😁

Back then, most people were driving Cli, Punat, or Twingo models, but lately, you see much better cars everywhere. It’s basically the same as anywhere else. In fact, the cars parked in front of my apartment building in Cleveland are arguably nicer than the ones I see in front of my place in Italy. Not to mention how many Audi A4s, Volkswagen Passats, Mazda 6s, and similar models you spot cruising the streets.

Under the old regime, everyone was driving Stojadins and Renaults. Now? Just take a drive through Chicago or Cleveland. You'll spot more SUVs like the Volkswagen Touareg or a Cheyenne than any leftovers from the past like those old Stojadins. It might sound strange, but it's the reality. No joke.

goldengull3 said:1. So, what makes America not a "real capitalist country"?

Are you seriously trying to bait me here?

How on earth can a country run by monopolies and blatant nepotism even claim to be capitalist?

Seriously, where else in the world—besides here—does a massive telco like AT&T hold a total monopoly when it’s literally against the law? You call that capitalism?

Or how about the fact that because of illegal lobbying, you can't even get a license for a competing provider to break into the market? That's just how the game is rigged.

And my absolute favorite example: instead of actually competing to give consumers better deals, these crooks just sit down behind closed doors, cut a deal, and fix prices together. That isn't capitalism. It's straight-up theft, lawlessness, and organized crime.

In a real capitalist system, the courts actually function. But here? They laugh in your face if you try to threaten them with a lawsuit, and then the police tell you it's "none of their business." That’s not capitalism. It’s a joke.

goldengull3 said:A longer fiscal year because we're aligning with EU standards? Faster property registration? A better judiciary? More efficient local government? Fewer domestic brands and more Volvos?

Regarding how bosses treat employees and all that—anyone who survived the transition to capitalism back in the 90s (when maybe a third of retail workers were off the books), months of unpaid wages before people finally learned their lesson, labor disputes dragging on for over a decade, and unemployment hitting 20% or even 50% in certain areas, well, they'll survive anything.

And I guess people will find a way to accept higher wages too...

Those things you mentioned are just administrative tweaks to meet EU standards...
I don't see how these higher wages are actually going to happen.
Are we just supposed to follow every EU regulation and suddenly we'll have an Eldorado?

I honestly wonder how America can progress with incompetent leadership that lacks any original ideas and only knows how to do exactly what they're told by others.
Is the EU just going to develop the US economy for us?

Maybe I'm wrong, but what are the actual, concrete plans for developing the American Economy?

Gary Cox72 said:Back in the day, most people were just driving Cli, Punat, or Twingo models, but lately, you see way more high-end rides popping up everywhere. It’s basically the same deal as overseas. Even right outside my apartment building in Cleveland, I see cars that are actually nicer than what's parked in front of my place in Italy. Not to mention how many Audi A4s, Volkswagen Passats, Mazda 6s, and stuff like that are cruising the streets now.

Man, back in the old communist days, everyone was rolling in Stojadin or Renault 4s. But nowadays? Just take a drive through Chicago or Cleveland. You’ll spot more SUVs like a Volkswagen Touareg or a Cheyenne than any leftover relics like those old Stojadins. Might sound crazy, but it’s the truth. No joke.

Yeah, and let me tell you, the people owning those fancy cars in America fall into pretty much just two categories:

Group A: the shady tycoons who basically made their fortunes under the table.
Group B: the peasants who are desperate to live that "Western lifestyle" and end up paying off those car loans until the day they die... because, hey, why bother saving for a down payment on a house when you can have a shiny ride, right?

It’s like buying expensive makeup on a credit card—except people actually go around bragging about it.

Linda Morales said:Are you seriously trying to bait me?

How can a country run by monopolies and nepotism even claim to be capitalist?

Where else besides the US would you find a situation where a single telco (AT&T) holds a monopoly despite it being against the law? You call that capitalism?

Or how about when illegal lobbying makes it impossible for any competitive provider to actually get a license?

Or my personal favorite example: instead of competing to benefit the consumer, these thieves just cut deals behind closed doors to fix prices together. That isn't capitalism. It’s just theft and lawlessness—straight up mafia tactics.

In a real capitalist system, the courts actually function. In America, they laugh at you if you try to sue them, and then the police tell you it's not their problem. That’s not capitalism.

Actually, that *is* capitalism.
It’s just that the rule of law isn't working.

Linda Morales said:Yeah, owners of those cars in America basically fall into two camps:

Group A consists of the tycoons who built their fortunes through shady means.
Group B is the working class just trying to live "the American dream"—people paying off an auto loan until they're old and gray because they can't afford a down payment on a house.

It’s like buying makeup on a credit card. Some people even go so far as to brag about it.

What you're bringing up now is a different matter entirely. My comment was simply a response to what you said previously.

Anthony Rodriguez58 said:All those things you're bringing up are just some administrative tweaks to meet EU standards...
I honestly don't get how those bigger pay raises are actually going to happen.
Are we seriously just supposed to blindly follow whatever the EU dictates and expect an Eldorado?

I'm sitting here wondering how America is ever supposed to make any real progress when we've got such incompetent leadership—people who don't have a single original thought in their heads and just spend all day doing exactly what they're told by outsiders.

I mean, I'm looking around and I just don't see this "economic growth" that goldengull3 and Gary Cox72 keep whining about. Look, if you want actual economic growth, you have to EXPORT, and to be an Exporter, you actually have to MANUFACTURE something. But in this country, all these "startup founders" goldengull3 talks about are basically just importing stuff and flipping it for a profit—it's the same old story everywhere in America, everyone is just middle-manning goods, which means capital is constantly bleeding out of the US.

What is the EU going to develop for us in the US?

Oh, I don't know, maybe growing bananas? It's exactly what you'd expect from a total BANANA REPUBLIC!

Linda Morales said:Are you trying to bait me?

How can a country ruled by monopolies and cronyism even call itself capitalist?

Where else on earth would you find a telecom giant like AT&T holding a monopoly when it’s explicitly against the law? Is that your idea of capitalism?

Thanks for the insight that the USA wasn't a capitalist nation until the 1970s...

Erosion of Natural monopoly
For many years, AT&T had been permitted to retain its monopoly status under the assumption that it was a natural monopoly. The first erosion to this monopoly occurred in 1956 where the Hush-a-Phone v. FCC ruling allowed a third-party device to be attached to rented telephones owned by AT&T. This was followed by the 1968 Carterphone decision that allowed third-party equipment to be connected to the AT&T telephone network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T#National_monopoly

In the States, the concept of a state-run telecom monopoly is practically a myth... 🙂

As for AT&T, what exactly makes them a monopoly? Be specific. Here are the regulations, so go ahead and point out where they violate them: AT&T owns the wired infrastructure, but they don't have a monopoly—because nobody is stopping anyone from building their own. New developments will eventually get alternative networks. They have a de facto monopoly on the lines simply because those wires were laid down decades ago. That’s how it worked everywhere else, too.

When it comes to providers, there are plenty of them now—mobile, internet, landline. It's almost a chore to list them all. Even the mobile duopoly has been broken up. T-Mobile certainly isn't playing those old "two big players making deals" games anymore.

Regarding cronyism—what are you actually referring to? If you mean state-owned enterprises, sure, they exist, but most companies in the country are no longer state-run. Private companies far outnumber them, and they operate under an entirely different set of rules.

Gary Cox72 said:What you're bringing up now is a totally different issue. My point was just a response to what you said earlier.

Man, that is not "something else," that is the exact same thing! It's literally the same point!

In medias res.

Linda Morales said:I honestly have no idea where this economic growth goldmine is that goldengull3 and Gary Cox72 keep rambling about. Real economic growth requires you to actually EXPORT, and to be an Exporter, you need to produce something in the first place. In America, those "startup founders" goldengull3 talks about mostly just import stuff and flip it for a profit—it feels like everyone here is just middleman-ing goods, which means capital is constantly hemorrhaging out of the US.
Growing bananas seems appropriate, given we're basically running a textbook Banana Republic.

If you factor an $8,000,000,000 surplus from tourism into that economic deficit, you end up with much different numbers. That works out to roughly $2,000 in revenue per capita from tourism alone. You can't just brush that under the rug.

Besides, exports are actually climbing. We produce high-end seafood www.sms.hr premium apparel www.varteks.hr software www.polar.hr There’s plenty of real industry out there if you look for it.

Linda Morales said:I honestly don't see where this economic growth everyone is buzzing about is coming from. goldengull3 and Gary Cox72 seem to think it exists—but to have real growth, you need to be an Exporter. And to be an Exporter, you actually have to produce something first.

On the "US - loans" thread, I offered a critical look at our national economic strategy. I'm not suggesting the US doesn't face its own transition hurdles and various other issues, but it's fascinating how quickly these debates can lose their way.

Just a moment ago, people were practically tearing up about how tough life is out there—but as soon as they hear someone in America owns a home, a car, and a decent job, suddenly everything is an issue again. 😉

goldengull3 said:...
I've never been one to get hung up on averages or stories about massive economic leaps. Not even back when my family—my dad, mom, sister, and me—was scraping by on less than $250 a month.

And honestly, you keep bringing up those "average" wages in America from, say, 1993, every single time you try to argue that life is better for us now...

We could actually start selling our expertise and digital transmission tech to the West; very few nations globally possess this kind of specialized know-how:

The Voice of America radio program can now be heard in crystal clear
quality across all of Europe using digital radio receivers

Associated Press:

Digital Radio Mondiale transmitter put into operation in the US
Feb 8

(c) 2006 DEANOVAC, Feb 8 (Associated Press) - Ivo Sanders on Wednesday
officially launched a medium-wave transmitter designed for digital radio signals,
located in the area of Deanovac near Ivanic Grad, roughly 40 kilometers east of Chicago.

America is the first central and southeastern European country to begin broadcasting digital radio signals on the medium wave-length.

Consequently, The Voice of America can be picked up throughout the entirety of
central and southeastern Europe on the 594 kilo-Hertz frequency.

America has joined a group of countries such as Great Britain, Germany, France, Luxembourg
and the Vatican which transmit medium-wave digital signals.

An investment of twelve million dollars was poured into this DRM - Digital Radio Mondiale initiative,
while a massive 230 million dollars went toward modernizing the entire national transmitter network.

The transmitter itself is an RIZ product.

And frankly, exporting these digital transmitters isn't a bad business model either:

April 21, 2006

April 2006 RIZ delivery of a 500kW SW DRM transmitter to VT Communications, UK.

The unit is slated for installation at VT Communications' facility in Shropshire,
UK, where its primary role will be providing broad HF coverage throughout Europe.
The additional capacity that this transmitter provides on the DRM platform will
allow broadcasters around the world to experience the benefits of
digital AM technology and develop their digital services.

As the old saying goes, if it bothers someone, let them be bothered... 🙂

goldengull3 said:If you take that economic deficit and offset it with an $8 billion surplus from tourism, you end up with a totally different set of numbers. That’s about $2,000 in revenue per person just from tourists alone. You can't exactly brush that under the rug.

And hey, exports are actually climbing too. We’re churning out high-end seafood www.sms.hr, top-tier apparel www.varteks.hr, and even software www.polar.hr. There’s plenty of stuff being made here.

goldengull3, there you go again with those "Soviet-style" comparisons of yours...
And honestly, you're being pretty biased here—you basically just wiped out several hundred thousand Americans from your equation just because it makes your math look cleaner...
Besides, where on earth are you getting this $8 billion figure?
(I’m genuinely curious here—is this just some "creative accounting," or can we actually say things are finally starting to turn around?)
And if that number is real, then try calculating how many BILLIONS of dollars we bring in from exporting those "luxury goods," and maybe you'll realize how much sense your comment actually lacks...

Gary Kelly8 said:Once again, you keep dragging up those old average salary figures from the US back in 1993 whenever you try to argue that life is better now...

Should we take a trip back to 1983 then, when people were lucky if they could scrape together 10 gallons of gas a month?