Thoughts on capitalism...

Does anyone know what the price per square foot looks like in Sydney or maybe some other major city in the US?

The situation regarding credit is actually quite impressive—I’m genuinely thrilled that in America, it’s finally become possible to purchase an apartment or a house without needing to be some billionaire tycoon. For years, young people felt like they had absolutely zero perspective for the future, but things have definitely shifted for the better now. It’s true that, unfortunately, a significant portion of the population is still left out of this progress, but I truly believe that anyone who knows how to save and maintains enough patience will eventually see their day and secure a place of their own.

Look, I'm not going to sit here and argue that things are better now than they were five years ago...
but let's be real, we're buried in debt compared to before. It makes me wonder how much longer this supposed "better" period can actually last before everything hits the fan.

goldengull3 said:Look, let's settle this once and for all. You folks living abroad need to decide if America is a Nordic-style social welfare state with massive benefits, or if it’s just pure, unadulterated American capitalism.

You guys remind me of those two characters from The Muppet Show who can never be satisfied with anything...

👍

A colleague dragged me into this thread so I could get a lesson in history. 😁 Honestly, I haven't seen a group of Che Guevara wannabes like this since I was watching old war movies. Seriously, my friends living overseas—if things are so miserable back home and this "horrible" capitalism is such a nightmare, why on earth are you all living abroad? To be stuck in the 21st century arguing over whether socialism or capitalism is better is just tragicomic. Go ahead, name me one advanced socialist country that actually maintains a high standard of living.

goldengull3 said:Of course it’s worth praising. Before three years ago—back before those budget airlines arrived—filling up a vacation rental was a massive struggle when you were looking at a 45-day occupancy rate. Now, the average is closer to 60 days, and for the more capable owners, we're seeing 90.

That represents a surge of 30% to 100% in just a three-year window. To be perfectly realistic—I mean, if you actually want to make it worthwhile to take out a loan, build a rental property, and pay back that debt using rental income—you really need about 110 to 120 days of occupancy. That kind of volume is what people see in the tourism industry over in Canada (and yes, I’ll admit it, their coastline is much more successful!).

But my point is about the *trend*—and trends can easily swing downward by double digits. You aren't going to see that kind of thing in Toronto. It's nearly impossible there. However, when one year you walk away with $1,000, the next you get $2,000, and the following year it jumps to $5,000 in rental income, that changes the entire equation. America today isn't the America of yesterday or even the day before. And America won't be the same tomorrow either.

Now, look, you have investments in Toronto where the percentage gains are huge, but that immediately implies an equally massive risk. Something doesn't quite add up in your logic. Banks are lending money at 6% interest, yet Vanguard funds are recording growth of 20% or even higher. Who's the crazy one here? Why wouldn't banks just dump all their cash into those types of funds? If you see that they consider the "average" American to be a more reliable bet than those funds, then you know exactly how much confidence they have in them.
In this country, there has always been an insatiable hunger for quick cash.

Gary Harris6 said:Look, you can find investments in places like Toronto that offer massive returns, but those always come with massive risks. Something about your logic doesn't add up. Banks are lending money at 6% interest, yet Vanguard funds are seeing growth of 20% or more. Who’s the crazy one here? Why wouldn't banks just dump all their cash into those funds? If they clearly trust the average American more than they trust those funds, then you know exactly how much stability those funds actually have.
In this country, there's always been an insatiable hunger for quick cash.

And where did you get the idea that banks don't have their own investment funds or don't invest in them? A huge chunk of stocks are owned by banks. Of course banks run their own funds, and they’re pretty successful—it's rare to see one with single-digit annual returns. Everywhere in the world, investment funds outperform standard interest rates on average; otherwise, they'd be pointless. Who would bother with funds if banks offered a guaranteed higher interest rate?

Oh, please. If you're so confident, why don't you just take out a loan at 6% interest, dump all your cash into a Vanguard fund, and live off the spread?
Everywhere in the world—and I mean everywhere—there are funds that end the year sitting in the red. Real investors look for the ones actually showing a profit. It’s technically true that the market average stays positive, but nobody invests in "the average"; you're putting money into specific assets, and the risk is very much real.
I have to ask—exactly what percentage of your income have you actually put into these funds? Just contributing to two or three different 401(k) plans isn't investing; it's basically handing your money over to someone else to play with. Honestly, if you want to call yourself a financial expert, one would expect to see you active on the stock market at least as much as you are at a local sportsbook.
And now you're actually spitting on people just because they're debating the fundamental differences between socialism and capitalism? Seriously? Which system are you living under right now? In which country do you actually reside?

Interest rates for cash loans aren't sitting at 6%. That rate applies to specific home loans where the bank secures a mortgage against the property; if you're looking to invest, you need liquid cash.

Your comparisons between the stock market and a sports betting parlor are pure guesswork, much like most of the nonsense being posted on this thread. I’ve been an investor for quite some time now. I don't dump my money into some government-managed retirement fund; I put it into stocks and index funds. Most of my wealth was built by selling services. I live in the American capitalist system, and frankly, I’m doing just fine in it, thanks for asking 🙂
It’s clear you all live in a socialist utopia that exists solely inside your own heads.

Once you’ve closed on a property and the cash is in your hand, those funds are yours to command—period.
My comparison between the stock market and sports betting was really just my way of pointing out that a huge chunk of Americans seem to spend more time hovering over betting apps than actually investing—they're essentially chasing a quick buck through gambling instead of building wealth.
Let me tell you, true capitalism hasn't even begun to shine here in the States yet. Believe me—"Big Government" still insists on micromanaging the lives of most people (though, granted, they don't look out for everyone).

Gary Harris6 said:my comparison between the stock market and sports betting stems from my belief that a huge chunk of Americans spend their time at betting parlors, desperately trying to scrape together some kind of profit.

And some actually do strike it rich. Usually the house owners. Honestly, if I’d had any inkling of how this would play out, I would have opened my own sportsbook years ago.🙂

Unfortunately, that pervasive "get rich quick" mentality is still deeply embedded in the culture.

Gary Harris6 said:If you've already cashed out on real estate, that cash is sitting there ready to use.
The whole betting shop analogy was just my way of saying I think most Americans spend their time at the casino trying to scrape together some profit.
Capitalism hasn't truly hit its stride here in the States yet, trust me. The government still feels the need to hold everyone's hand (well, most people).

What does a paid-off house have to do with this? You were explaining why someone wouldn't take out a mortgage at 6% interest (specifically long-term residential loans) and then fail to invest that capital. There are two main reasons:
1) The golden rule of investing—don't play with borrowed money or cash you can't afford to lose.
2) A mortgage is a restricted loan; those funds are earmarked strictly for buying a home. If you want a personal loan for other things, expect an interest rate much higher than 6%.

As for capitalism, it depends on your definition. Right now, the system here in America is actually much coarser and more deregulated than in most of the European Union, so in that sense, it’s definitely "shining." Compared to the American model, Europe is quite socialistic. We tend to lean toward the type of capitalism seen across most of the European Union.

Bringing up gambling really doesn't belong in this discussion.

talia said:You haven't experienced it yourself, and while I have friends in IT who don't work overtime, it remains a FACT that—while not technically illegal—working unpaid overtime in the tech industry is common. It gives companies far too much leeway to exploit their employees if they choose to.
Well, I explained it clearly enough: everyone is staying quiet, nobody wants to rock the boat, and what exactly are you going to build on your own?
Are you really the only one refusing overtime, especially when your company is going through mass layoffs?
Should you just find another job?
And she actually tried to do that.
What would you do if you were in a company like that?

I would make sure my skills and knowledge always stay above average so I could find a new role; that is essentially how I operate.
I suppose the only real job security comes from being useful. Now, you can choose to be useful by being cheap (working free overtime), or you can produce more within your standard hours so you don't have to work extra.

In the IT sector, the range of performance is quite vast, so someone highly skilled might have an output ten times greater than an average worker.

banderas said:The interest rate for personal loans isn't 6%. That rate applies to specific home loans where the bank takes a mortgage on the property. If you want money to invest, you need liquid cash.

Your comparison between the stock market and sports betting is just guesswork, much like most of the people on this thread. I’ve been an investor for quite some time now. I don't put my money into social security funds; I invest in stocks and mutual funds. Most of my wealth was built by selling services. I live in America, a capitalist country, and I’m doing just fine here, thanks for asking. 🙂
It seems you all are living in a version of socialism that only exists in your heads.

I’ve been working with a modest amount of money—essentially supplementing my retirement—for about 14 years now.

Stocks are for the long haul. For us retirees who had our superannuation tied up in various funds, cash, stocks, mortgages, overseas assets,
and so on—you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Thanks to the global shifts following 2000, we've seen people lose anywhere from 35-45% depending on luck.

That happened even through some of the world's most famous big-name bank funds... not through a sportsbook.

I’ve withdrawn my remaining capital and I handle my own investments now.
Everyone wants to make a profit, but then they hit you with annual fees, monthly maintenance fees, and management percentages once the money is invested—plus maybe another 0.10% over the years, but it adds up.

To get a decent return at a bank, you have to be very happy just to see 5% a year. You might see 5.25% on an online daily balance account. If you want to take a slightly smaller risk, many people opt for mortgage-backed loans where you can get around 8.25%, with interest paid monthly, quarterly, semi-annually, or annually.

I usually stick with one I've had for four years, which is registered with a fund of over $100 million.

It shows how many people can't get the loan they actually need from a Bank, so they
borrow money through secondary mortgages... if you don't pay, they seize and sell your house, villa, or investment property. I believe those loans run around 9-13% per year.

Sure, many people own homes and units on credit, but many also end up paying higher interest than they would at a bank because they exceed their actual repayment capacity.

😎

banderas said:What does equity in a paid-off property have to do with this? You were explaining why one shouldn't take out a loan at a 6% interest rate—specifically regarding long-term mortgages—since that capital isn't being invested. There are two main reasons for that:
1) The golden rule of investing—never play with borrowed money or anything you can't afford to lose entirely.
2) A mortgage is a purpose-driven loan; those funds are strictly earmarked for purchasing a home and nothing else. If you want cash for other things, personal loans carry much higher interest rates than 6%.

As for capitalism, it really depends on your definition. Right now, the version we see here in America is actually far more aggressive and laissez-faire than what you find in most of the European Union—which is where it truly shines. Compared to the American model, it’s quite socialistic. We tend to lean toward the type of capitalism seen in most European nations.

And honestly, discussing sports betting really doesn't belong in this thread.

My understanding of credit markets is limited to what I've seen in Canada. Over there, if you have equity in a paid-off house, you can leverage it to get a loan using the home as collateral—I believe that would be a home equity loan—and the interest rates stay low. If that's not how things work here in the States, then my mistake.
I agree with your "golden rule of investing," though I find it somewhat at odds with your previous posts regarding the steady returns offered by mutual funds.
For me personally, the biggest advantage of putting money into funds like Vanguard is the tax deduction. As long as the fund's yield stays ahead of inflation, I'm happy. Plenty of people will claim I'm losing money that way, but I'm quite modest when it comes to those kinds of criticisms.

goldengull3, you should seriously consider opening an addiction counseling center specifically for gambling addicts. Honestly, I don't think anyone has filled that niche yet—you wouldn't have any shortage of clients, either—and who knows, you might even manage to snag some funding from health insurance or Medicare.
(Just watch out though—if you actually go through with it, I'll be suing you for stealing my brilliant idea!😬 ))

Gary Harris6, an individual in the US doesn't pay capital gains tax on investment funds—provided they realize those gains by exiting the fund. In Italy, for instance, you do pay it, just like everywhere else in the West. When it comes to investing and banking services, things are significantly less favorable over here.

I know—it’s the exact same phenomenon you see with standard savings accounts at a major Bank. In the States, people are carrying massive amounts of debt, yet at the very same time, personal savings levels have skyrocketed. It means someone is out there borrowing heavily, while someone else is dumping cash into a Bank to rake in interest—all without paying a dime in taxes on those gains. It might not seem like a huge deal on the surface, but when we are talking about massive sums of money...

banderas said:👍

A colleague dragged me into this thread to get a little history lesson. 😁 Honestly, I haven't seen a group of Che Guevaras this large since those old war movies. To my fellow expats out there—what are you even doing living abroad if things are so miserable and capitalism is such a nightmare? Arguing about whether socialism is better than capitalism in the 21st century is just tragicomic. Just name one advanced socialist country with a high standard of living.

I don't think the debate was actually about which system is superior.
From what I've noticed, every single critique of capitalism gets met with Johnson's comment about how socialism wasn't any better either. 😕
And he thinks that's an actual argument? 😕
With that debating style, Johnson sounds just like those right-wingers who respond to any criticism of Nazi Germany by saying the resistance wasn't any better, as if that somehow proves Nazi Germany was fine. 😕

It doesn't make sense. Do we really have to believe capitalism is perfect just because communism failed?
What does that even have to do with anything?
If I'm already living under capitalism and using my own brain, I should probably be aware of all its flaws and systemic traps. It’s better for me that way; I won't fall into the same traps others did.
What's so strange about that?
To me, the weird ones are the people in rose-colored glasses who actually believe the U.S. Congress carries out the will of the American people and stuff like that... 🙄
Johnson, do you still believe Santa Claus brings gifts to good children for Christmas? 🤣

guy said:I’d just make sure my skill set stays well above average and find a new gig, which is basically what I do.
The only actual job security is being useful. You get to choose how you play that: you can be "useful" by being cheap—you know, working unpaid overtime—or you can actually produce enough in your standard hours so you don't have to stay late.

In the US tech sector, the range is massive. A top-tier dev can easily outproduce an average one by ten times.

Well, sure, you found a new job, but it's not like openings are popping up on every corner. The tech market isn't exactly booming right now.
How often are we talking about switching jobs here? Every three months?
And look, if everyone at the firm is pulling overtime, how are you supposed to be the only one saying no?

Will said:Way to go! 🙏 🙏 🙏 So, look, you're asking this guy who’s basically living the dream—I mean, we're talking mansions, vacation homes, estates scattered all over the map, just total luxury everywhere he goes—you want to know his age? Honestly, man, why does it even matter? Like, if someone’s out there collecting properties like they're Pokémon cards, does the number on their birth certificate really change the vibe? I feel like once you hit that level of "I own half of Malibu and a penthouse in NYC," time kind of stops being a thing. But hey, if you're that curious about the man behind the empire, go ahead and ask him directly!

Honestly, who even knows? It’s anyone's guess at this point.

Man, that’s a heavy question to just drop out of nowhere, isn't it? Like, where do we even start with that kind of life audit? Honestly, if you're asking how many kids I've actually raised—not just fed and kept from running into traffic, but actually *raised*—it’s a whole different story. It’s one thing to keep them alive through the toddler years, but getting them to actually stand on their own two feet and navigate this crazy, chaotic world without tripping over their own shadows? That's the real grind. I've had my fair share of successes and plenty of "what was I thinking?" moments, but seeing someone finally find their footing while you're standing there exhausted and wondering if you did anything right... that's the only thing that keeps you going. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and believe me, I am feeling every single mile of it.

Let's just put it this way: I definitely overshot what I was aiming for.

Look, if you're actually sitting on that kind of bankroll, maybe you could do us all a massive favor and "sponsor" a few people to get them out of this mess here in the States... I mean, seriously, just fund their escape, and then once they’re settled and getting paid back, you can just loop that money right back into helping another couple of buddies. It's practically a revolving door of salvation!

Honestly, that’s not even a bad idea. I’ve actually been chewing on that exact same thought for a while now, just kind of mulling it over in the back of my head.

Honestly, I feel like I’ve got all the right ingredients for it, you know? Maybe it’s time I finally leaned into my dark side, grabbed a big ol' manor out in Montana, and started acting like some old-school feudal lord—just so I could have my own little crew of servants to do my bidding for once in my life.

That's actually a solid idea. I'm digging it.

Man, back in my day, I was out there grinding, trying to put two kids through school in Africa on basically nothing... we're talking like $30 bucks a month. Fast forward ten years down the road, and honestly, between all the taxes and the way things go, I might as well have just tossed that cash straight into the furnace.

Look, I’m not gonna sit here and act all high and mighty like I actually had something to work with, because honestly? I was broke. Even the local priest—who, let's be real, lived way more lavishly than I ever did—was practically rolling in it compared to me! Back then, if I somehow managed to stumble upon an extra five bucks in my pocket during a leap year, it felt like I’d just hit the jackpot in Vegas or won some massive Powerball drawing. It was basically a miracle.

So, basically, maybe we should all take a beat and actually think for two seconds before we go full keyboard warrior next time, right, Will?

Man, someone like you—with all that massive brainpower—would’ve figured out by now that you could actually step up and do something useful for the rest of us mere mortals, you know? Like, there are plenty of regular, hardworking, broke people out here just trying to scrape by, and it's kind of wild that someone as "brilliant" as you hasn't thought about helping out the little guy once in a while.

Are you actually as brilliant as you claim to be? Because if you are, you better start showing us something positive for once! I mean, seriously, what does all that wealth even mean to you anyway?

Nah, not even close. Honestly, I’m already way too deep in the trenches of whatever circles I’ve chosen to run with. If anything, I’m twice—maybe even three times—more wrapped up in all this stuff than anyone else could ever hope to be.

Look, I’ve basically run the numbers and done the math on my own life, and through some rigorous empirical testing, I’ve realized that if I keep grinding at this exact pace, I’m going to run out of clock before I actually get to the good stuff. My ego—which, let's be honest, is fueled by a massive, borderline delusional TODO list—is currently staring down the barrel of maybe one or two final action items. Just one or two things standing between me and freedom, if I don't burn out first.

It’s honestly hilarious that this guy thinks he can come for me like that. Like, seriously? You sweet summer child, you don't know the first thing about me—aside from whatever little delusions you've cooked up in that head of yours.

There’s this old-school American saying floating around—something about how thinking is basically just a massive, exhausting headache. Honestly, I don't even know why I'm bothering to explain that to you guys, right? You already get it.

Good luck with all that, seriously—and thanks in advance for looking out for people who actually give a damn and will pay you back properly... though I'm sure you're mostly just sitting there daydreaming about how much everyone else on this board is going to worship you once they see how "noble" you are.

I mean, seriously though! I’m pretty sure if I actually gave a damn about what some random digital avatars on an internet forum thought of me, I’d be looking at a serious psychiatric diagnosis. Like, genuinely. It’s just not happening. Total ERROR.