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Music school recommendations?

Started by dustytrucker222 · · 👁 10 views · 341 replies

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Participants dustytrucker222Christian Lee13Abluemakerrowdyfox12mellowbadger8Terry Turner842gentlecanyon92Melissa Price6rustymaker60Douglas Reed7Lisa Richardson8Jeffrey Sullivan4ruggedharbor95Noah Myers8David Miller5mistypantherBetty Bennett10Lawrence WellsBryan Brownplacidgardener19Aaron Parker31stormyotter67swiftgull5 …
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#81 ·
Mary said:...people who graduate from music conservatory play in orchestras, work in schools, or act as accompanists, and in my opinion, those are all very lovely careers.

I suppose I can agree with Mary that those are all wonderful jobs, but there is one major issue here. Working in a school is primarily an educational role. These people finish their music degrees and then end up doing something entirely different—child development. It’s night and day!
Maybe it works at the university level, but what about middle school? If you look back at some previous posts, you'll see how many students struggle specifically because of this. Professors don't seem to grasp the actual nature of the job they are performing...
Christian Lee13 Christian Lee13 Member
39 messages
joined Mar 2005
#82 ·
Ivo, you’re spot on, and honestly, at the Juilliard School, there’s a massive void where actual psychology, methodology, and hands-on practical training should be. What they teach there—if you can even call it that—is basically just rote memorization masquerading as psychology, which has zero connection to the kind of applied, useful psychology we actually need in the real world. To make matters worse, the professor teaching it has been the same unstable individual for years. As for the methodology classes, I can't even recall learning a single thing that was remotely helpful, though I probably shouldn't even bring up professor 😠. At the end of the day, all you really have to rely on is your own raw intelligence and your emotional intelligence—assuming you actually possess any—and, of course, a gut-level awareness of whether you actually have the temperament to work with kids or not.

It’s a shame, but you see an awful number of deeply unstable people working in High Schools; I suppose it’s what happens when people can't find a way to channel their massive egos into something realistic, so they drift into education because their "real" careers fell through.
Then you have to factor in the reality that for a man expected to be the provider, it’s incredibly frustrating to be working for $1333 (starting salary), which makes it pretty obvious why finding a decent male teacher is such a rare occurrence.
ruggedharbor95 ruggedharbor95 Member
45 messages
joined Apr 2006
#83 ·
ruggedharbor95 said:If you actually have talent, you stay far away from music conservatory. They’ll suck the soul right out of you and kill whatever tiny spark of love for the instrument you managed to keep through school.
Take me, for example. As a kid, I swiped my great-grandfather’s old guitar and fell in love instantly. It wasn't even about that specific guitar; it was just *the* instrument. It made sounds—the exact sounds I wanted to hear. Pretty soon, I was begging my mom to sign me up for lessons, and I even wrote my first song. 🤣 Here’s the thing: I loved playing, but I absolutely loathed music theory. Even with the best teachers in the world (Ištvan Roemer and Goran Listeš), they couldn't force me to play songs at a set tempo. If I didn't like a piece, I’d play it about 30% faster than written just to get it over with. 😁 Every single year, my report card said the same thing: "highly talented and incredibly lazy." 🤣 But like I said, my teachers were legends. They were absolute fanatics who lived for their instruments, and watching them was the first time I realized how much playing could actually make someone happy.

My mom used to take me to all their concerts, and she didn't just watch—she actually practiced guitar alongside me during those elementary school years. Seriously, she did the work because she genuinely loved it. I, on the other hand, was arrogant. I picked things up too fast, so once I basically mastered a song by sight, I’d toss the guitar aside and go ride my bike. Years later, after I quit formal lessons, both my teachers and my mom hit me with that mental realization: I finally understood how to play with actual feeling. As an hyperactive kid, I just wasn't wired for it yet. Bottom line? You need a great teacher, but more importantly, you need a parent who loves music and has the grit to stick with it.

Honestly, I have no idea how anyone put up with me. Just constant whining: "Noooo, I don't wanna practice! Look how fast I can do it! See? (Plays a new song 47% faster than the sheet music, slams the guitar down, zero feeling, pure brute force)." 😬

As for picking an instrument... hmm. The violin is a solid choice only if you have a child with insane discipline and patience. Otherwise, you're looking at a bald son or a neurotic daughter by age twenty. 😬

I'm in a similar spot right now...
I've got music theory and ear training exams in a couple of weeks and I have no clue if I'm going to pass. 😬
The diktat stuff is killing me since we never did that in middle school,
and I really don't feel like memorizing all these harmony rules. ☕
Maybe I'll just nail the piano portion and they'll let me pass the year with some mediocre grade in theory. 🤣
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#84 ·
Vin said:Unfortunately, a huge number of mentally unstable people work at the JCS. I suppose it happens when people can't fit their massive ambitions into reality, so they end up going into teaching because their "career failed."

It seems you have a very clear understanding of the faculty profile at the JCS. I can fully understand your point—since I work in education myself, though not music; a completely different field—but I wouldn't be quite so bitter about it.
I feel for these kids who complain about teachers; clearly, they have the drive and the talent, but the disconnect is just massive.
My own experiences with the JCS, through my children, have been very positive. Maybe they just got lucky. I don't know.

Vin said:When you add the fact that it's hard for a man, the traditional "provider," to deal with the frustration of working for $1333 (starting salary), it becomes obvious why talented male teachers are such a rare breed.

No, no, let's slow down, there are all sorts of 🙂ers among us.
I suspect the core of this issue isn't teacher personalities (or gender, for that matter) but rather the way they are educated (or even raised). There is simply too little distinction between vocational training and pedagogy during university studies. Nowadays in schools (both elementary and high school), you have people teaching who treated methodology, pedagogy, and psychology as an afterthought in college. Practicums were basically a joke to them... They actually wanted to do something else, not educate children. That wasn't offered to them, or they weren't clearly informed about what their actual career would entail. Imagine an engineer who finishes a math degree only to find themselves in a 5th-grade classroom struggling with fractions, having zero interest or knowledge regarding child development. The kids go crazy, and the teacher is miserable. The situation is: total chaos!
As for those $1333, (I'm a 5) I have no comment. 😠
Best regards, Vin
Christian Lee13 Christian Lee13 Member
39 messages
joined Mar 2005
#85 ·
Sure, I’m not saying it’s some kind of universal standard for every single employee profile out there, but look, if you’re running a small school—say, one with maybe 40 staff members—it really only takes a couple of total idiots to tank the whole operation. You get one or two teachers who are either too lazy to actually teach or they’ve got these twisted, dysfunctional pedagogical methods, and suddenly they’re spreading this massive wave of bad press everywhere. Just think about what happens when the internal vibe at a place is totally off, like that situation mentioned earlier. It’s a domino effect. That’s easily 40 kids and another 80 parents all walking away thinking, "Yeah, that school is a disaster," and telling everyone they meet on the street.
David Miller5 David Miller5 Member
20 messages
joined May 2006
#86 ·
Drito Konj said:I’ve jammed with classical players a billion times now, and they always get this specific 😲 look on their faces when they realize the whole thing is improvised and nobody is handing them a sheet of music.

Well, okay, fine. I guess you have a point there...

I know plenty of piano players who act like total jerks and don't have a clue about 😬
But generally speaking, I think it's better to just finish college (for any career, really) because at least you walk away with a degree... And if you actually love music, you're going to play whether you're in school or not. You don't need to spend five years letting some cranky professor at a conservatory talk you out of something you actually enjoy 😁 .
bluemaker bluemaker Member
14 messages
joined Nov 2007
#87 ·
ivo said:So here is the real question: what is the actual point of going to music school, or even just getting a musical education in general?

I’m actually going to paste a post I wrote in a different thread over here, specifically as a response to why and how listening to and playing jazz can bring someone true happiness.

"How would I explain to someone why I love jazz and how it can make me happy?

Think about Charlie Parker, one of the most brilliant musicians to ever walk the earth. When you really dive into his solos, studying them note by note, what he played was essentially pure Bach with tiny, subtle variations; plus, his technical execution on the sax—the tone, the dynamics, the articulation—was nothing short of flawless. I once spent three months practicing a single one of his solos for four or five hours every single day, and even then, I couldn't quite nail it the way he did. On the flip side, this man spent about twenty years—out of the thirty-five years he lived—struggling with heroin addiction, living a pretty wild lifestyle, enduring four failed marriages, and facing all the systemic hardships of being a Black man in the USA during the 40s and 50s (he passed away in 1955). He went through absolute hell, yet somehow, through a kind of musical alchemy, he transmuted all that pain into incredibly emotional music.

The conclusion you reach when you study someone like that in detail is this: for something to be truly great, you need a perfect marriage of intellect and emotion.

You see plenty of threads on forums like this asking things like 'is money or love more important?' in various forms. Parker basically told us (indirectly, through his playing) that you absolutely need both. He provided a universal answer to any question regarding whether intellect or feeling holds more weight.

There is also this fantastic book I have about practicing improvisation, where the author mentions that if you possess moderate talent, you need about twenty years of dedicated practice to achieve true mastery in jazz. In other words, for anything that is TRULY worth having, you have to put in a massive amount of work. He also claims that everything—and I mean everything (!) —can be practiced, from your ear and technique to your expressiveness, your intellect, and your soul. Now, he wasn't talking about sex and romance, obviously, but I personally feel like that logic applies there too.

To borrow a thought from Joe Henderson, another incredible saxophonist, who was once asked what kind of sax, mouthpiece, and reed he uses, and he simply replied: "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian." Essentially, it's the mastery of the player that matters, not the gear. When you stop to think about it, you realize that might apply elsewhere too—like saying 'it isn't about the partner you find, but the person you become.'

So, when you listen to jazz, you stumble upon these deep realizations (which can ultimately be applied to marriage or life in general), though it seems to me that most people just don't quite grasp these truths.

Which brings me back to my question: would people be happier if they actually understood these things, and if so, how many of them would be?

So there 🙂
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#88 ·
vinova lozinka said:... for a school with, say, 40 employees, it only takes a handful of idiot teachers to ruin everything. Their laziness or twisted teaching methods spread incredible negative publicity. Just imagine what bad vibes from a professor—like the one mentioned above—can do to a school's reputation!

Alright, calm down! I see you're absolutely fuming, so I won't bother arguing with you. Honestly, I actually agree. I would just say that a few out of 40 isn't exactly a catastrophic number, though. There are plenty of schools out there with much worse ratios.
mistypanther mistypanther Member
45 messages
joined Nov 2003
#89 ·
Bean Dar said:I’m going to paste a post from another thread here, specifically as an answer to the question of why and how listening to and playing jazz can actually bring someone happiness.

How on earth am I supposed to explain to someone why I love jazz and how much it actually lifts my spirits?

🤣

I love how spot-on everything you write is, but honestly, do you really have to bring up Parker every single time? It’s absolutely ridiculous! 🤣 😍

Well, alright then. I suppose I have to admit you actually have a point there...
Is anyone actually going to address this? It’s absolutely ridiculous. mistypanther says:
I’ve lost count of how many piano-playing posers I run into who haven't the slightest clue what they're doing.
Generally speaking, I think it’s smarter to just finish college—regardless of what career you're aiming for—because at least you walk away with a degree in hand. If you're passionate about music, you'll be playing whether you're in class or out of it. Why spend five years letting some bitter professor talk you out of something you actually love?

Honestly, I just wanted to say how disappointed I am with the quality of higher music education here in the States. It’s pathetic how they work you to death with practice sessions until you're literally losing hair—but I suppose that's just the way it goes everywhere, isn't it? 😁It’s honestly pathetic how there is absolutely zero support for anyone actually trying to pursue music as a career here. Where are the legitimate modern studios? Where is the jazz, the fusion, or even decent rock programs? How can they expect talent to grow when none of the essential infrastructure exists?

What’s even worse is that there isn't a real industry supporting any kind of art here, not just music. In this country, people look at musicians like they're just lazy slackers playing around to avoid getting a real job. And since there's no actual infrastructure, there's no way to make a living—obviously. Can you imagine the mental toll that takes on a person? I spent ten years fighting that exact battle within myself: do I pursue music, get a real career, or just end up an alcoholic? 😬

It took me ten whole years before I finally said, "Fine, let's do this," and just went for it. In the meantime, I picked up a few other instruments because I couldn't stand being away from music for a second. Since I didn't have a decent place to practice my drums—not exactly something you can lug around easily—I ended up picking up a guitar. I spent my time drilling bass techniques on it, even though it wasn't really my primary instrument. I even ended up borrowing a synth from my sister, which helped me shake the rust off my piano skills. Piece by piece, I worked through all of them to put together a solo album.

In the end, I just threw it all away. I’m heading out this fall to study drums for two years in London, followed by whatever other instruments I can get my hands on. I genuinely want to grow as a musician, but this country provides absolutely zero opportunities for that. Honestly, it's probably the same story at a jazz academy in Vienna—there's just no industry there either. You move, you study, then you come back home and realize you're still stuck in the same dead end. For years, I haven't even bothered practicing because nobody here was willing or able to teach me the things I actually cared about; I've had to figure everything out on my own. And frankly, I am sick to death of people asking, "Are you still playing, or have you finally gotten a real job?"

Look, parents, by all means, sign your kid up for music lessons if you want—but if you’re going to encourage them, for heaven's sake, go all the way! Are we actually going to support their passion, or just treat it like some fleeting hobby? 👍
rustymaker60 rustymaker60 Member
39 messages
joined Mar 2006
#90 ·
In the end, true talent always finds its way.
My brother-in-law never even took formal music lessons, yet he’s become quite a successful blues guitarist (as much as you can really make a living as a musician in the US). My father, on the other hand, was a professional musician who spent years studying everything from piano and violin to saxophone and clarinet.

He tried to push me toward the piano—but I've honestly hated the piano for as long as I can remember. I wanted to play guitar. He wouldn't hear of it. Eventually, he actually brought home a harp and even set up a lesson with a friend of his who teaches harp at the local conservatory, but even that didn't work.

Then there was my drawing and painting, which I was naturally great at, and he somehow managed to discourage those efforts too.

If I could offer one piece of advice, it's this: give your child a variety of options so they can choose their own path. As parents, our role is simply to provide the motivation, the organization, and the opportunities.
David Miller5 David Miller5 Member
20 messages
joined May 2006
#91 ·
Drito Konj said:And honestly, I’m so over people asking me, "Are you still playing music, or are you doing something real now?"

😬 Ha ha, it's the same when people ask what my brother studied (they always tack on "law or business," 😬 as if those are the only two things that exist in this world), and then when I tell them he went to conservatory, they all get this look of total shock and awe. "Wow, an artist!" 🤣 😬 Can you believe it? Not a lawyer, not a businessman. 😬 Oh, wait, I forgot doctors too! 🙏 🤣
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#92 ·
For the upcoming dates and everyone else!!!
All week long, the guitar department from Elly Bašić High School is holding concerts at the local church in New York City. I just got back from the first one in the series, where about fifteen middle schoolers performed.
It’s actually quite educational and informative for any parents who might be considering enrolling their kids in music school soon—specifically for classical guitar in this instance.
Link here for the full program details.

PS I'm calling on everyone to post the production dates for Sesvete General High School so interested parents and kids can go hear what this is all about.
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#93 ·
On Tuesday and Wednesday, May 30th and 31st at 8:00 PM, there will be a concert by students from Vatroslav Lisinski High School held at the American Music Institute.

Then on Saturday, June 3rd, around 11:00 AM, the V. Lisinski High School wind orchestra is performing at Flower Square.
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#94 ·
The final concert for students from Sesvete General High School is scheduled for Tuesday, May 30th at 7:30 PM. It will take place in the lobby of Sesvete High School on Bistrički Street.
rustymaker60 rustymaker60 Member
39 messages
joined Mar 2006
#95 ·
I ran into the most adorable little girl carrying a guitar at the preschool today, so I had to ask if she was taking music lessons.
To make a long story short, they offer a music playroom designed for kids from toddlerhood onwards, so I’m planning to enroll my little one as soon as possible. It seems like such a wonderful, constructive way to learn.
It clearly isn't too early to start. They play along with singing, and honestly, I don't see any downside to that.
🙂
Terry Turner842 Terry Turner842 Member
16 messages
joined May 2006
#96 ·
On Monday, June 5th at 5:00 PM, there will be a presentation by the Zlatko Baloković Music School featuring student performances, held at the Kranjčević High School Library on Ivanićgradska Street (Brooklyn)
Lawrence Wells Lawrence Wells Regular
312 messages
joined Jun 2006
#97 ·
Baan Dar said:In my experience—and I’m definitely not the only one who thinks this—talent only accounts for about 5% of the equation. The other 95%? That’s pure practice, grit, and hard work determining how well someone actually plays.

I have to disagree! Real musicians are born—you can't just buy your way into greatness by bribing corrupt professors! Sure, you have to put in the hours and grind through practice, but if the spark isn't there, it's better to just walk away. Especially when it comes to the violin—you really need that perfect pitch, and let's face it, only about 0.5% of musicians actually possess it!
Christian Lee13 Christian Lee13 Member
39 messages
joined Mar 2005
#98 ·
Look, musicians are born just like hairdressers, carpenters, or Inuit hunters. If they don't get access to at least some decent schooling—and more importantly, if they aren't grinding away practicing from sunrise to sunset—then all that raw talent is basically useless. Honestly, I’ve always wondered where this pervasive myth comes from, this idea that some "natural genius" can somehow bypass the hard work and still make it as a professional musician. It's nonsense.
To play the violin professionally, you don't need some freakish, perfect pitch; what you actually need is just a solid, functional ear.
Melissa Price6 Melissa Price6 Active Member
81 messages
joined Jan 2008
#99 ·
Christian Lee13 said:Musicians are born just like hairdressers, massage therapists, or Eskimos. If they don't get access to decent training and—more importantly—grind it out from dawn till dusk, all that raw talent is basically useless (honestly, I’ve always wondered where this myth comes from, this idea that some "natural prodigy" can just coast their way to being a pro without those two things)
You don't actually need perfect pitch to play violin professionally; you just need a really good ear.


Honestly, talent accounts for less than ten percent of everything a musician actually pulls off..
which is why you see these super ambitious people who might have half the talent but twice the hustle getting into top conservatories 🙂
Christian Lee13 Christian Lee13 Member
39 messages
joined Mar 2005
#100 ·
Exactly, most really talented people just don't get the chance to actually hone their craft.

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