Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha

hiddenpuma75:
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(Just a quick reminder that I actually started this thread myself!

I wanted to see how you all would translate the concepts of CONSCIOUSNESS and AWARENESS using our own American terminology.
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CONSCIOUSNESS - Awareness or state of being conscious.

AWARENESS - Attentiveness or mindfulness.

Wait, wasn't this already documented in that other thread we discussed?
We are talking about two distinct expressions here, not just one.👋

You frequently find yourself quoting rather than actually providing commentary.
For instance, look at that thread I started—the one regarding where the individual self ends and begins.

You quoted my entire post, but you did it in such a way that you simply copied the whole thing without crediting the author, essentially signing it with your own handle.

Now, look, I realize you weren't intentionally trying to plagiarize.

Perhaps your intention was to reiterate the points you found compelling.

Or maybe you intended to offer some sort of critique but failed to actually do so.

Or who knows what your thought process was there? Just tell us.

But that isn't how you engage in a discussion, because you end up leaving people completely confused about the context of the conversation.

------------------------------- by hiddenpuma75

I always strive to speak with LIVING WORDS whenever it is within my power.
That would mean words born from the moment and the circumstances of the PRESENT, emerging from my own
"inner" essence, free from any call of
MEMORY or anything else.
Sometimes I succeed, and in those moments, those words carry a WEIGHT and a COMPLETENESS
that they otherwise lack.

LIVING WORDS resonate with LIFE in a way that provides something to it that is otherwise missing—something most people aren't even aware of. It acts as a final validation of LIFE itself. Every WORD flows from this work.

There is no pretense here; it is KNOWN AND VISIBLE
and it can be READ BETWEEN THE LINES, BETWEEN THE LETTERS. Sometimes, a single word
can be MORE SUBSTANTIAL than hundreds or thousands of them combined. There is an incredible MAGIC in words when you FEEL and SEE that someone has uttered just one single word with such GRAVITY that it communicates EVERYTHING
THAT A THOUSAND WORDS COULD SAY.
A SINGLE WORD is sufficient to reveal the secret of language.

As for what happened regarding me writing "your words" as if they were mine...
Look, you still don't quite grasp it; I am still convinced that I wrote them in the exact same manner in which I always write, and because of that, I feel them entirely as "my own." Perhaps I had read them previously and integrated them into my internal software
so seamlessly that I wasn't even conscious of it, which is entirely possible and quite likely. You can judge for yourself whether I reproduced your text letter for letter or if there are subtle differences, but honestly, it doesn't even matter.

So, that’s my take on the matter.👋

Karen Sanchez19 said:Man, while we were all just standing there waiting to meet up under the shadow of Niagara Falls, the pigeons practically started using my head as a target before redrider63 even showed up to join us.

🙂

I sat there for 50 minutes.😉 🙂 🙂

Well, what did I do? I procrastinated.

I lost track of time.

I went ballistic.

I waited impatiently.

I absolutely lost it.

I just waited...

I simply

😠 😠

In short, it was a MASTERFUL display of tardiness.

A MASTERFUL exercise in waiting.

👋

THERE IS NO slacking off here—you can see it, feel it, AND
it’s practically written between the lines and tucked between the letters! Sometimes, just a single word
can carry more weight than thousands upon thousands of others. Isn't that incredible? There is this absolute magic in a word when you truly feel it, when you witness someone speak with such profound sincerity that their one simple sentence captures
everything else any other words could ever attempt to say.
Truly, just one single, perfect word is enough to unlock the whole secret.
👋 [/B]

👍 👋

So, basically, you have to coordinate with Karen Sanchez19 fifty minutes before the actual time you intend to show up for the meeting.

But let’s be clear: he wasn't just waiting on Karen Sanchez19; he was stuck waiting on several other masters who all arrived at the exact same time.
🙂

(otherwise, he would have been a full hundred minutes late)

😳

redrider63 said:Well, what did I say? I was just drifting aimlessly,

lost in a timeless void,

losing my mind,

just waiting,

completely losing it,

just waiting...

so basically, a MASTERFUL DELAY

A MASTERFUL WAIT

😠 😠

All in all, it was a masterclass in procrastination.

A masterclass in patience.

👋

You stood there entirely alone,
melted into the landscape,
pigeons shitting on you,
offering their own kind of reward.🙂 🙂

P.S.: For heaven's sake, what is a cell phone even for? You could have sent me a text to ask where we were.🙂
I would have let you know if you had actually told us you were coming.🙂

Or maybe you’re actually enjoying it—standing there while pigeons crap on your head.🙏 🙂

Karen Sanchez19 said:It wasn't just waiting for Karen Sanchez19; he was also waiting for several other masters who showed up at the exact same time.
🙂
😳

Exactly. Karen Sanchez19 was waiting for us, and redrider63 was waiting for us. Since being "upside down" signifies a dream, we were all simply dreaming of the wait.😬😳

Buddha didn't actually experience ANYTHING, hiddenpuma75.
So there's no way sister Bernadette could have had the same experience.

Daigu said:hiddenpuma75, Buddha didn't experience NOTHINGNESS.
So there's no way sister Bernadette could have had that same experience either.

You can't exactly claim that ambereagle642 missed out because of that, right? 😁

Karen Sanchez19 said:You were just standing there all alone,
completely one with nature,
getting rained on by pigeons,
treating it like your little prize.🙂 🙂

P.S.: I mean, what is a smartphone even for? You could have easily shot me a text to ask where we were meeting.🙂
I would have let you know, provided you actually told us you were coming in the first place.🙂

Or maybe you just enjoy sitting there while the birds treat your head like a target.🙏 🙂

👋 👋 👋 👋

redrider63 said:👋 👋 👋 👋

Are you applauding the music or just making noise with those complaints?🙂 🙂 🙂

Daigu said:So there’s no way sister Bernadette could have experienced the exact same thing...

Wait, is she the one playing that acoustic guitar?!

🙄

Daigu said:Buddha experienced NOTHING, hiddenpuma75.
Which means Sister Bernadette couldn't have had the same experience.

The double negatives in our language feel a bit clunky—honestly, I think English handles those nuances much more smoothly.

anyway

My current understanding of this whole "not knowing" thing leads me to this:

Buddha experienced NOTHING, Daigu.
Therefore, the late, honorable Sister Bernadette could have absolutely experienced the same thing.

(And she described THAT state incredibly vividly and convincingly; her first and finest work, EXPERIENCE of NO SELF, is the best testament to that.)

I REALLY THINK IT'S TOO EARLY TO JUDGE BERNADETTE BEFORE READING HER CLEAR, COMPREHENSIVE, AND COMPELLING DESCRIPTION
''of the experience of NO SELF.''

(In my upcoming posts, I'll try to share a few key chapters, but as I mentioned, life is keeping me pretty busy right now, so please bear with me!)

👋

Interesting discussion.
Buddha definitely didn't experience Nothingness if hiddenpuma75 means the negation of all things in a nihilistic sense. The experience of non-self doesn't exclude the world in a conventional sense; rather, it fundamentally shifts how the world is perceived. When discussing emptiness, we aren't talking about the nothingness of all things, but rather the emptiness of inherent properties—meaning nothing exists as a self-contained entity (Atman).
In Zen or Chan, this experience is called the vision of nature, and it represents only the very beginning of true practice.
When discussing the stages of practice in Zen and Buddhism, there are several different "divisions." The Avatamsaka Sutra speaks of ten stages, and someone here mentioned the "Ten Oxherding Pictures."
It should be noted that in both cases, only the second or third stage (if I recall correctly) refers specifically to the vision of nature or non-self.
Similarly, initial practice is divided into four general stages:
1. The scattered mind of a beginner, susceptible to surroundings.
2. The concentrated mind of a practitioner, actively engaging with the environment.
3. One Mind, or the Great Mind (the Great Self, where the boundaries between the small ego and the Great Cosmic Mind dissolve).
4. No-mind, or the experience of non-existence.

While the potential of an ordinary sentient being and that of Buddha is exactly the same, there is a massive difference between the vision of nature experienced by "ordinary" practitioners and Buddha's total enlightenment (Samyak sambodhi).

Joseph Davis5 said:This is an interesting debate.
Buddha certainly didn't experience "Nothingness" the way hiddenpuma75 is suggesting if he meant the nihilistic negation of all things. Experiencing non-self doesn't mean shutting out the world in a conventional sense; rather, it fundamentally shifts how you perceive everything. When we talk about emptiness, we aren't talking about a void where nothing exists, but rather the lack of inherent, independent existence in things (the absence of a permanent Atman).
In Zen or Chan, this experience is called the vision of nature, and it’s really just the starting line for actual practice.
When discussing the stages of practice in Zen or Buddhism, there are several different frameworks. The Avatamsaka Sutra outlines ten stages, and someone else here mentioned the "Ten Oxherding Pictures."
It's worth noting that in both systems, only the second or third stage (if I recall correctly) actually refers to the initial vision of nature or non-self.
Similarly, initial practice can be broken down into four general phases:
1. The scattered mind of a beginner, totally reactive to their surroundings.
2. The focused mind of a practitioner actively engaging with their environment.
3. One Mind, or the Great Mind (where the boundaries between the small ego and the vast cosmic mind dissolve).
4. No-mind, or the experience of non-self.

Even though the potential within an ordinary sentient being is identical to the potential within Buddha himself, there is a massive gulf between a "regular" practitioner's vision of nature and Buddha's total enlightenment (Samyak sambodhi).

I don't get it. Honestly, I just don't get it. Where does this urge come from—to write with such absolute certainty about something nobody actually knows anything about?

I mean, look at Joseph Davis5, confidently debating what Buddha supposedly experienced??? That's like me sitting here with total authority arguing about what I felt while eating a chicken sandwich yesterday. Like, did I even eat a chicken sandwich? Was it turkey? Or am I actually a strict vegetarian or even a vegan who doesn't touch meat at all?

As if it actually matters to anyone whether this Mr. or Ms. Buddha experienced something, or will experience something, or if it was turkey instead of chicken...

For God's sake, either read what these "enlightened" people have written or don't, but why beat a dead horse this much when nobody has a clue what they're talking about??????????

ughhhhhhhhhhh...

🙂

aaaaaaa..h said:I just don't get it. Seriously, I am completely lost here. Where does this urge come from—this desperate need to write with such absolute certainty about things that nobody actually knows anything about?

So, Joseph Davis5, for example, is standing there arguing with total conviction about what Buddha experienced??? Honestly, isn't that just like someone trying to lecture me with complete authority about how I felt while I was eating a chicken sandwich yesterday? I mean, did I even eat a chicken sandwich yesterday? Or was it turkey? Or maybe I don't even eat meat because I'm a die-hard vegetarian who's about to go full vegan?

It’s as if it actually MATTERS to anyone whether or not that specific Mr. or Ms. Buddha ever actually went through those experiences... or if it was turkey... you know?

For heaven's sake, please read what these wonderful people have written—or don't! But seriously, how can people beat a dead horse THIS MUCH when absolutely nobody has a clue what they're talking about??????????

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....h

🙂

When placidharbor7 first started elementary school, he had to walk across the playground to get to class.

Some older kids, the neighborhood bullies, decided to block his path just so they could pull one of their little childhood stunts on him.

"Hey, say 'aaa'," they demanded.

"Aaa..." little John replied, being a polite first-grader.

"GOTCHA!" the bullies shouted in unison.

That's pretty much how it works for you, too, Seeker Aaaaaaah.
If you cut people off like that, aren't you just baiting them into giving you that silly, childish "aaa..." response?

And then you can swoop in with your own version of "GOTCHA!"

Before you start shouting about how "nobody knows anything" around here, why not try asking first?
Maybe someone actually *does* know something, and they'll be more than happy to show you what they know.

Or, if you can't find anyone like that, why don't you step up and show us what we ought to KNOW?

Until then, stop talking nonsense. 👎

Seeker Aaaaaaah said:I don't get it. I really don't. Where does this urge come from—writing with such absolute certainty about things you clearly know nothing about?
t

It’s not quite true that nothing is known. Over the last 2,500 years, a massive amount has been said, and people are still talking.

Joseph Davis5 said:It's not like we're completely in the dark here. Over the last 2,500 years, a massive amount has been said about this, and people are still talking.

True, but all this talk about someone else's enlightenment experience is basically just blind people trying to describe what light looks like. Honestly, if you haven't personally experienced what Buddha did—or what Bernadette Roberts thinks she’s experienced in this thread—then what is there to actually say? Most of it feels like people just stroking their own egos rather than getting anywhere meaningful. I'm not looking to start a huge debate, just felt like putting that out there.

Seeker Aaaaaaah said:True, but all this talk about other people's enlightenment experiences is just blind men describing the light...

Spot on. But what else are the blind left to do besides talk, until the day they finally see? When people are sick, they do everything in their power to find a cure. They swap stories about their ailments and the experiences of those who recovered, all just to find a remedy for themselves and those they love. Sometimes, they actually succeed.
I don't know what your issue is or where this anger is coming from, but there isn't a better way to do things on this forum.👋

Soto and Ivan placed their orders for the main course a while ago, straight from Bernadette Roberts' kitchen

But since hiddenpuma75 is acting as head chef, he’s currently tied up with our Verizon guests and a mountain of other orders

- so, while my dear guests and friends wait 🙂 for that main course, I ask for your patience given how packed the restaurant is. In the meantime, I’ll be serving an important appetizer ordered by our friend Karen Sanchez19

In fact, my waiter noted that when Karen Sanchez19 looked over the menu, she asked with genuine confusion:

''OWNERSHIP? WHAT ON EARTH DOES "OWNERSHIP" EVEN MEAN NOW?'' 😕

***
So, for the appetizer, I suggest 🙂 ''fried Termites'' 😁 and a little session of "termiteology" 😁 where we, like those very termites, break down the tiniest components of the terms we use

***

Bernadette Roberts refers to the non-dual level as "no-self," mainly because she couldn't find any trace of herself when she ''looked inward,'' and she simply didn't know what else to call it.

Her choice of words, however, was a bit unfortunate, because the concept of

NON-SELF makes it sound as if self-awareness has been annihilated, which is absolutely NOT the case.

Of course, plenty of other terms exist, but the Termites attack every single one. No concept is safe from the logical flaws and the relentless gnawing of the termites generated by the MOTHER OF ALL TERMS AND TERMITES

THE MIND.

**

Because, as Karen Sanchez19 so despondently and resignedly remarked

-IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THAT —or, as hiddenpuma75 put it in different words

only this statement is true:

A=A

And anyone who dares to leave the solid ground of that certainty to sail into the ocean of labeling and speculation risks being devoured by the sharks of reason.

***