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Hopkins's Arrow

Started by hollowfox38 · · 👁 7 views · 236 replies

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Participants hollowfox38slyviper47Acopperowl2coppernomad59granitebadger2hiddenviper9Paul Campbell3redrider63Jack Harris3Elizabeth Miller8Alexander HallKaren Sanchez19Jose Reyeshollowviper72
hollowfox38 hollowfox38 MemberOP
15 messages
joined Feb 2005
#61 ·
copperowl2 said:👍

Maybe "personality bankruptcy" isn't quite the right way to put it, since we still need those shells to function. Without an outer layer, there's no room for GROWTH!
That's why the external side is never the master—at best, it's just a student, a servant...
As long as a person thinks they're the one calling the shots, they're just digging themselves deeper into a state of total imbalance.
Once you merge with that imbalance, you lose all perspective.
They feel perfectly comfortable caught in a spider web, thinking they'll eventually become the spider and start catching flies.
And they will, because eventually, the opportunity will present itself...

The reason I use that phrase is because it’s standard terminology in the "Eastern" school of Gnostic thought. Here are a few snippets:

The more self-assured a person becomes—regardless of the facts—and the more satisfied they are with their own ego, the deeper they sink into absurdity and contradictions, all while mistaking their delusions for reality.

For a person to even begin the search, they have to go through a sequence of events: both a bankruptcy of the Personality and a complete collapse of their moral compass. They have to own up to it and accept it without trying to patch things up. Only then can they find enough motivation to actually start working on themselves, and only then will they have the strength to see it through. This applies to everyone...

[How much struggle and suffering someone endures during this process depends heavily on how much work they did in their "previous" lives.]

We’re all more or less "usurpers." People have this tendency to think they're incredibly important, despite all the evidence to the contrary. That kind of self-importance is just a glitch in our internal judgment system. We're all in the same boat, really. Even though people look different on the surface, the algebraic sum of virtues and flaws is identical for every human being. To kill any illusions right now: that sum is tiny, almost negligible. In fact, it tends toward zero... towards Death.

What esotericism expects from someone studying it is that they take that "negligible little bit" and forge it into a unity.

[Most of us just starting out from an esoteric perspective are still considered "sick" or "dead." ("Those who are whole don't need doctors; they only need those who are sick." "Let the dead bury their own dead.")]

Cheers!
hollowfox38 hollowfox38 MemberOP
15 messages
joined Feb 2005
#62 ·
A few more thoughts on this topic:

When someone starts searching for the Way, it usually means something inside them has finally buckled or snapped. It comes with this heavy, deep-dive audit of every belief and moral value they used to hold dear—values that suddenly feel hollow to the seeker. Usually, this whole interrogation is triggered by a series of shocks or traumas, whether subtle or violent, that leave a trail of negative emotions in their wake.
Tradition suggests there’s a possibility that not everyone has to go through this so-called "personality bankruptcy." Only those who could be called sinless—people whose lives haven't been tarnished by experience and who choose esoteric work based on positive vibes and successes—get a pass. But honestly, those types are pretty rare these days.
For most people, success and happiness don't act as wake-up calls; instead, they lull you into a deep mental slumber. From an esoteric standpoint, misfortune and trauma actually provide a much better foundation for spiritual work than a smooth ride ever could. Through all this, Tradition demands extreme humility from a person, because that modesty acts as a shield against the fallout that can come from any kind of internal or external success. That said, in trying to stay humble, a person has to avoid going overboard. Everything needs balance. [Even beauty beyond measure can end up looking deformed. (Philocalia; Isaac of Syria, Part 1)]
There’s a silver lining to this collapse, though. It forces a person to see things through a different lens. This can lead to two diametrically opposed outcomes. If a person is strong enough and stays objective, they won't look away from the relentless reality hitting them. They’ll find the guts to face things exactly as they are and accept the truths being forced upon them, no matter how hard they are to swallow. That’s when they’ve actually stepped onto the path leading toward the access road.
Otherwise, if a person is weak, an experience like this just breaks them further.
If a person refuses to accept their situation—especially their internal state, even after a brief flash of illumination from the true Self—and stays stubborn despite all the evidence, trying to defend their Personality with zero logic or justification, then they’re essentially turning their back on the access road. They're just throwing themselves deeper into the wilderness...
Let me repeat: nobody, except the truly sinless, can approach the access road that leads to the real Way without first undergoing an internal bankruptcy or a moral collapse.

(from part 5 of the Gnostic text)

Cheers!
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#63 ·
copperowl2 said:Fine, I won't say a word to you from now on.

Well, you haven't really been saying much anyway... 😁

I was just asking you something, and I don't get why you're being so cagey about it.
Look, if I asked something too personal, it's totally your right to keep it to yourself. It's on me to just accept that. 🙂
redrider63 redrider63 Member
41 messages
joined Nov 2004
#64 ·
Paul Campbell3 said:Fortunately, I am quite aware of my own "segments," as you so colorfully put it.

For instance, people on this forum try to lecture me on just about everything, whether it's in the short term or the long haul.😁

There are moments when certain individuals irritate me so profoundly that I feel an actual urge to strike them—to "crack their heads open," in your charming terminology. 🤣

As for you?
You leave me entirely indifferent.
In fact, your stubborn obsession with proving your supposed "visionary" status to the rest of this community is precisely what makes me laugh.
Because you are lying to yourself as much as you are to us. If you truly want to offer advice, I suggest you apply it to your own life first. Only then might we actually have a meaningful conversation.

By acting this way, you prove that you are, in fact, the one sleeping most soundly of all.

And yet, you walk around under the delusion that you are wide awake.
🙂

YOU YOU YOU
good grief
how can anything happen when the shell of the personality doesn't crack even slightly, allowing something impersonal to sprout through? Or when we fail to realize that the exact same river flows behind both your ego and his? That same force, that Spirit, those very words crave nothing more than to illuminate and demystify the lies residing within both of you...
If only you could glimpse one another through that tiny fissure, you would understand each other instantly... but as it stands, this will take time, though perhaps that is the only way it can be...
You are searching for one another—that is the purest form of seeking. That is why these posts alternate, why this dynamic exists, and why there is such an exchange. Sometimes it hurts, because it has to hurt, but that pain eventually gives way to joy, peace, and entirely new perspectives...
Paul Campbell3 Paul Campbell3 Regular
259 messages
joined Feb 2004
#65 ·
redrider63 said:I TOLD YOU, I TOLD YOU, I TOLD YOU
dammit
when that shell of your personality finally cracks just enough to let something impersonal sprout through... ...or when you realize there's the exact same river flowing behind your "self" and his, and that this force, this Spirit, this power, just wants to shine a light on the lies in both of us...
Man, if we could just see through that tiny crack, we’d understand each other instantly. But it’s gonna take time. That’s just how it works.
We're searching for one another—that's the core of it. That's why the posts keep flying back and forth, why there's this constant push and pull. Sometimes it hurts, because yeah, it has to hurt, but that pain is what leads to the joy, the peace, and the new perspectives later on.

Exactly. To put it simply—other people often express better what I( 😁 ) think..😉

👋
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#66 ·
No, no, no...

Last night, I had this dream where I was deep in discussion with someone about how—and more importantly, when—to finally wake up. Honestly, since I woke up this morning, I’m not even sure if we ever actually did...

I can't wait to get back to sleep!
😁

Anyway...
🙂☕
copperowl2 copperowl2 Active Member
52 messages
joined Jan 2005
#67 ·
Paul Campbell3 said:Fortunately enough, I am perfectly aware of my own "segments," as you so eloquently put it.

....

Your commentary leaves me entirely indifferent.

🙂


😂 😂

Perhaps those particular words might impress some of the kids hanging around here, but when I sit down to read what you write, I don't rely on eyes that see nothing more than dead, empty letters...
But let's not waste any more time trying to prove how someone whom I find "indifferent" certainly won't be spending so many words (and that's in their own defense) rather, I would suggest we continue our little interactions in a purely "performative tone." 😬
It will be for the best for all of you; after all, those masks you guard and defend with such visible tension will remain firmly in place, perhaps only slightly scuffed in the process.
That seems to be your most blissful state—it's the only condition under which you find peace—so why on earth would I want to disturb it, wouldn't you agree, Paul Campbell3? 😉
Your peace is the peace of a sleeping man, and I have no intention (nor any goal) of opening those sticky, heavy eyelids.
There would be no point!
copperowl2 copperowl2 Active Member
52 messages
joined Jan 2005
#68 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Well, you haven't managed it yet. 😁

I was simply asking you something, though I can't quite figure out why you're so determined to dodge the question.
Of course, if I've stumbled onto something uncomfortable, it's entirely your prerogative to stay silent; it's my job to just accept that. 🙂

If you're truly that curious about my personal life, you're more than welcome to send me a DM. 😉
Assuming, of course, that I’m actually in the mood to chat. 😁 😬
copperowl2 copperowl2 Active Member
52 messages
joined Jan 2005
#69 ·
hollowfox38 said:Before anyone can actually embark on a true search, they first have to navigate a specific sequence of events: the total bankruptcy of their own personality and the complete collapse of their moral compass. One has to face this reality alone, acknowledging and accepting the wreckage without trying to patch up the cracks or pretend things aren't broken. Only then does a person find enough genuine motivation to begin the work of self-transformation, and only at that point do they acquire the strength required to actually follow through. This holds true for everyone, regardless of who they are.


Yes, I’ll go so far as to say: one must experience a kind of "permanent PAIN."
This "permanent PAIN" represents the simultaneous disintegration of one's entire existing way of living and believing; there comes a moment when everything suddenly feels utterly meaningless.
Of course, this doesn't mean the job is finished, because the structures that (briefly) collapsed—revealing themselves to be nothing more than hollow deceptions and manipulations—will quickly attempt to recover, steady themselves, and fight to reclaim their lost status.
But if someone has truly felt that PAIN born from the absurdity of it all, if they KNOW that there is nothing solid left to cling to, then they possess a momentum that can no longer be stopped.
In fact, that PAIN becomes something one starts to crave.
Craving that PAIN isn't about being a masochist; rather, it's about finally standing on the other side of appearances, in that place where nothing else can be hidden.
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#70 ·
It’s finally clicking why a fly trapped in a web suffers so much. It isn't just about the inevitable end or the terror of being eaten; it’s that moment when the fly looks around, sees no predator, and mistakenly concludes that *it* is the one who should be spinning the silk. It starts struggling desperately to weave its own destiny, but a fly is just a fly—it simply can't make it happen.
🙂 👎 😲

Just because there's a web doesn't mean there's actually a spider behind it.
Nietzsche would probably say:
The spider is dead!!!
😁 😁

On another note...
🙂 ☕
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#71 ·
Herpes said:Just because there’s a web doesn't mean there's actually a spider behind it.

Well, I'd say one kind of web is a hell of a lot worse than a spider's...
A fishing net. 😁
Nietzsche would probably say:
The spider is dead!!!
😁 😁

So, does that mean we should be looking out for some trouble soon? 😁

I guess they'll all just keep buzzing around the same old mess anyway... 🥳
Paul Campbell3 Paul Campbell3 Regular
259 messages
joined Feb 2004
#72 ·
Look, I'm not defending anything—I'm just saying those glasses aren't as sharp as you think they are. Or maybe your eyesight is just failing you. 😉

And since we're already on the subject of being overly dramatic, this whole thing reminded me of this one joke:

Two sperm cells are chatting, and one turns to the other and asks, "Hey, do you believe in life after the egg?"
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#73 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Well, there's really only one kind of web worse than a spider's...
A fishing net. 😁
...


🙏 🙏 🙏 👍 Way to go, Jack Harris3!
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#74 ·
hollowfox38, how did you even end up arriving at the conclusions you're making here?
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#75 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Well, there’s only one kind of net that's actually worse than a spider's web...
A fishing net.
So, does that mean we should brace ourselves for some upcoming trouble?
Oh, and I bet they'll all be stumbling around in the same mess... 🥳

Mr. Pes, you really hit the nail on the head...
🙏
Between the chaos and the fishermen, we'd better watch our backs!!!

On another note...
🙂☕
copperowl2 copperowl2 Active Member
52 messages
joined Jan 2005
#76 ·
Paul Campbell3 said:Look, I’m not exactly defending anything here—I’m just suggesting that maybe your glasses aren't quite as sharp as you think they are, or perhaps your vision is just playing tricks on you. 😉


I don't lose any sleep over these things.
Let someone else worry about that nonsense.
And let them go ahead and (publicly) comfort themselves if they must. 😁 😁
copperowl2 copperowl2 Active Member
52 messages
joined Jan 2005
#77 ·
The vet said:Just to add a little more to that conversation:

If a person refuses to accept their current reality—specifically that internal state revealed during those fleeting moments of clarity when the true Self momentarily shines through—they are essentially choosing a path of self-sabotage. If they remain stubbornly fixated on defending their ego, clinging to a persona that defies all logic and lacks any rational foundation despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then what are they actually doing? By refusing to acknowledge the truth of who they are, they aren't just stalling; they are turning their back on the Path entirely, effectively casting themselves deeper into the wilderness.

Once you've dealt with that initial burst of illumination—the kind followed by two distinct types of radiation, one pulling everything in while the other pushes it all away—where do we actually go from here? Is there anything more exhausting than dealing with someone who acts like they’re doing you a massive favor just by existing in your vicinity? It’s that specific breed of person—the self-appointed martyr—who moves through life convinced that their every minor inconvenience is a profound sacrifice for the greater good. They don't just help; they perform helpfulness, complete with a heavy sigh and a lingering look that practically begs for a standing ovation. Why is it that some people feel the need to weaponize their own supposed altruism? Is it possible to be genuinely kind without making sure everyone within a five-mile radius knows exactly how much effort it took? It honestly makes you wonder if the "good deed" was ever actually about the recipient, or if it was just a calculated move to build up a mountain of moral leverage. 😁 It’s funny how you always seem to find yourself standing on that edge right before an election rolls around.
In many instances, that pivotal moment is clouded by a host of personal delusions; if one lacks the internal fortitude—that raw, driving force required to trigger true self-awareness—is there even a realistic chance they will ever actually recognize the opportunity when it presents itself?
That’s exactly how you trigger understandable resistance and genuine anger; after a relentless barrage of accusations and a complete failure to show any empathy, he just collapses, sinking even deeper into the abyss than he ever has before.

If that sudden flash of insight fails to reach the heart and ignite the darkness there, it occasionally only manages to brush against the intellect. This kind of hollow "enlightenment" merely produces candidates for experimental magic—those individuals who go about trying to solidify their own sense of self through various means, usually at someone else's expense, because, let's face it, somebody always has to foot the bill.
It seems everyone is suddenly eager to play the role of the enlightened sage, isn't it?
It seems many people in this group consider themselves exceptionally "enlightened," don't they?
They have this desperate need to project an aura of scale and power, mostly because they’re hollowed out by their own inadequacies. Since they haven't managed to prove anything of substance in their actual lives, they turn to the digital realm to manufacture a sense of strength that simply isn't there. For many of them—whether they’d ever care to admit it or not—this is really just a final, frantic attempt at validation, a last-ditch effort to finally feel like someone in the eyes of a stranger.
The mind is fully engaged, yet the heart remains completely isolated.
There’s a lot of pseudo-intellectual posturing going on here, isn't there? It feels like a massive amount of cruelty is being masked behind these supposedly sophisticated, tried-and-true methods.
It often gets pushed down so deep into the subconscious that years can slip by without even the slightest hint of awareness surfacing to the surface.
They operate under the delusion of their own purity simply because they lack the self-awareness to recognize their own malice; meanwhile, one can practically feel that suppressed toxicity leaking out of them in every direction, yet the true tragedy lies in the fact that they remain entirely oblivious to it.

The truth is often far too heavy for those who lack the capacity to grasp it, let alone the courage to accept it.
People tend to flee from their own truths, retreating into the dark catacombs of their own delusions simply because it’s easier than facing the stinging reality that they aren't nearly as flawless as they like to believe.
And that’s exactly why not everyone can manage to be honest or truly open with themselves; they simply lack the capacity for it, mostly because they remain, quite fundamentally, far too much of a burden to their own souls.
A good number of them are still clinging to the delusion that they’re actually the good guys.
They actually seem to believe, with a level of conviction that borders on the fatal, that their love is genuine, that their longings are somehow noble, and that they are somehow masterclasses in self-control.
But when that moment finally arrives—the one where they actually have to look themselves in the eye instead of just skimming the surface like they always have—they fail completely. 🙄
They simply refuse to face reality, reacting with their entire being to everything they see; isn't there just something incredibly comforting about sinking into a plush armchair and settling in for a front-row seat to one's own little performance?
They shatter the mirror only to crawl right back to the shards, don't they? It turns out that living within a curated illusion of one's own making is just far too sweet to give up.
People start preaching about sincere love again, or how much we all need to be kind and look out for one another, but it’s usually just a performance. They put on this carefully crafted mask of virtue, ready to squeeze out a few performative tears whenever it suits them, or flash a grin at the very people who are practically begging to be comforted by such hollow gestures.
Is it possible that by running from the light, we simply end up hiding behind a mask? What exactly do we mean when we talk about this concept of "paradoxical humanism"? It’s one of those phrases that sounds profound enough to hang on a gallery wall, yet it feels increasingly hollow when you actually try to pin it down in our modern landscape. Is it possible that our very attempt to champion human values is what ultimately alienates us from them? We find ourselves caught in this strange loop where the more we strive for a calculated, optimized version of empathy, the more artificial and performative the whole endeavor becomes. Isn't there a certain irony in trying to systematize compassion, as if we could simply engineer a better version of the soul through policy or social etiquette? Perhaps true humanity lies not in these grand, organized gestures of goodwill, but in the messy, unpolished, and often inconvenient realities that any structured system of "humanism" would inevitably try to smooth over..
This poison—this sheer, relentless toxicity of insincerity where people become so adept at deception that they actually start believing their own lies—seems to be coursing through the veins of everyone around us.

A man like that eventually becomes the blueprint for everyone around him; he moves through this world among his own kind, held in incredibly high regard by those who actually understand what he represents.
People can’t stop raving about his focus, that razor-sharp concentration, his charm, and his sheer sophistication; even his smallest gestures seem to radiate a certain strength of character and an unmistakable sense of decisiveness.
Then there come those moments when someone refuses to bend to their every whim, and suddenly, that entire facade of polished beauty just crumbles.
What follows is a genuine explosion of rage; the "decent citizen," that supposed role model for society, transforms into an aggressor who uses his intellect to refine his suppressed malice, employing methods so subtle and repulsive that there’s really no need to describe them—anyone who truly wants to recognize them will find them lurking within themselves.
But this "upstanding gentleman" won't waste a single second without pointing the finger at others, because since he views himself as flawless, the issue can never be internal; it must always exist somewhere OUTSIDE of him.
He will spend hours, days, months, and years trying to convince both the world and himself that he only ever seeks the best, and that he is perpetually being thwarted by others—those who simply aren't as virtuous as he is.
To some degree, almost everyone is suffering from this kind of performative sickness.
Even if you look around here, you'll find people who will try with deadly seriousness to convince you they are completely immune to the very human weaknesses that plague the rest of us.
They still stubbornly believe the problem lies elsewhere!
Having identified common human flaws, they wait in the wings for applause, because that is the only way their lie manages to forget that it is, in fact, a lie.
How wonderful it must be to lounge comfortably in such expansive delusions!
What absolute madness, what a living hell it must be, when billions of these "good people" start competing to see who can shed more crocodile tears over people and situations that don't actually touch their hearts at all.
Alexander Hall Alexander Hall Member
38 messages
joined Oct 2005
#78 ·
Infinite. Why on earth does your claim—that an outsider is just left searching for meaning in the void, only to end up running in circles—count as a personal question?
hollowfox38 hollowfox38 MemberOP
15 messages
joined Feb 2005
#79 ·
masterblaster said:hollowfox38, how the hell did you end up believing all this stuff you're posting about?

mb,

I’m just one of those people trying to find some actual truth in this massive ocean of fake news. But here’s the thing—you can't even start that journey unless you strip away all your own personal biases and gut feelings first. The more you let go of the illusions you hold about yourself and the world, the better your chances of actually spotting what's real.

Whenever I dig something up, I usually just dump it on my website—take it or leave it. It’s there for anyone else out there doing the same grind. At the end of the day, it’s on you to decide if something matters or to actually do the legwork to see if it holds water.

Just swallowing everything whole without doing your own homework isn't research... it's just blind faith, kind of like following a religion.

Later.
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#80 ·
says:
Hey,

I’m just one of those people trying to navigate the truth through this massive ocean of misinformation. At the same time, I realize that you can't even start that journey without first stripping away your own personal biases and assumptions. The more you let go of illusions—both about yourself and the world we live in—the better equipped you are to actually recognize what's real.

Whenever I uncover something or dig up some info, I usually just dump it onto my website (take it or leave it style) so it's available for anyone else out there hunting for the truth. Of course, the responsibility lies with you to decide if a piece of information is worth your time, and whether you should dive deeper and investigate it for yourself.

Just swallowing everything whole without doing your own homework would be nothing more than blind faith, much like following a religion.

Cheers!

Have you ever personally gone through something similar to the stories you've shared here?

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