Is moderation actually a sign of wisdom?

hollowviper72 said:These are people who burn out—people who see nothing but their own flame. You know the type I mean;

-that CEO who, despite having millions, ends up with ulcers, a broken family, and zero satisfaction with his success;
-the athlete who destroys their healthy body in the name of passion;
-the man whose love for someone becomes pure possessiveness;
-the famous painter who sacrificed every other youthful dream just to chase his canvas;

This happens when you confuse processes with human complexity.
The businessman, the athlete, the lover, or the painter aren't like that because of passion; they are like that because of their character. Passion doesn't dictate your life. You either have it or you don't. It can guide you, sure, but it isn't the one driving the car.
Gaudrathe, if it actually dictated everything, we wouldn't be talking about passion anymore—we’d be talking about addiction. And you've already seen how VelmaX reconciled diversity.

Regarding your examples:
Think about that businessman without passion—his family wouldn't be living the high life they enjoy now (and let's skip the fairy tales about whether they're actually happy, okay?)
As for the athlete "destroying their body"—good grief, Gaudrathe, at this rate you’d say even playing the sport itself is destructive. To you, any form of professional athletics is a negative.
It's a disaster..
And that painter? We wouldn't even be discussing him today if he hadn't become famous..

Passion is an essential and extraordinary part of being human, yet you want to put it under lock and key.
Is this your obsession with moderation speaking?
I know exactly which slice of passion you're targeting, but you fail to see that your entire way of speaking is designed to stifle passion altogether..

hollowviper72 said:Is there even any point in arguing over who's right when neither of us is willing to budge? I suppose a passionate person might enjoy this kind of back-and-forth. To me... it feels like kids fighting over toys in a playground.

It isn't about giving in, Gaudrathe.
The reality, as I see it, is that passion can drive some pretty dark human behaviors. But it’s incredibly difficult—as you put it—to actually discuss passion when you start off by declaring that Every Passion Must Be Zealous!
Honestly, that's just pure aggression right out of the gate..

My pushback is really just basic self-defense against total nonsense…

If you really want the truth...
When a newcomer reads your stuff, they instinctively pick up on this vibe that you’re practically condemning passion itself. You end up painting it with nothing but negative strokes..

Honestly, I'm surprised no one else caught onto this..
But since you're so keen on having me check the dictionary (in that specific order):

Passion - 1. A powerful sensory experience; an irresistible urge or desire.
2. A lasting inclination toward beauty and the sublime.
3. An overwhelming, burning love.

I read those definitions and didn't exactly feel the urge to run from Passion like it was the plague, or fear it would lead me down a path of misery..
Quite the opposite, actually..
My apologies, how dare I, right, hollowviper72..?

"One should never overindulge, even when practicing moderation."🙄 😁 👍

The author is well known to Master John.

Alexander Watson, Alexander Watson... you are truly the textbook definition of how passion can blind a person. In your sheer, desperate drive to prove me wrong, you’ll toss aside every valid point and every single word I say—regardless of how much sense they make—simply because they happen to be coming from my mouth. You refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't fit your specific narrative of me, because if you did, you wouldn't be able to satisfy that deep-seated urge you have to tear down every argument I make.

If I can offer you one bit of friendly advice—and I mean this with nothing but good intentions—it’s this: don't let it get under your skin quite so much. Seriously, take a breath! At the end of the day, it's just a game. 😉

Whether you’re looking at a high-powered CEO, a professional athlete, or even a world-renowned painter—those people don't reach the top simply because they have "passion." It’s about their character. Passion itself doesn't dictate your actions; it isn't a roadmap that makes decisions for you. You either possess that inner drive or you don't. It can certainly act as a compass to guide you, but it shouldn't be the engine doing the heavy lifting on your behalf. To hollowviper72's point—if we were to suggest that passion is what actually dictates our behavior, then we've crossed the line from motivation into the territory of addiction. And, as you saw with VelmaX, they managed to harmonize all those different elements perfectly.

No... actually, I think you’ve got it backwards—I was saying that VelmaX made an excellent comparison between addiction and obsession. She went on to argue that they aren't quite the same thing, but if you ask me? I truly believe they are one and the same.

Just imagine if that businessman hadn't possessed such an intense, relentless drive—I mean, truly soul-deep passion. If he hadn't been so driven, neither his family nor his descendants would be enjoying the comfortable lifestyle they have today. And please, let’s skip the fairy tales about whether everyone is "truly happy" or whatever—we all know how those stories go, right?

I don't need to rely on anecdotes or fairy tales to make my point—I actually know wealthy people personally who are profoundly unhappy. Take this one businessman, for instance; he started his venture for a specific reason... whether that was out of a genuine passion for the work or simply a drive to provide for his family remains to be seen. But over time, as he succumbed to the grip of pure ambition, he completely lost sight of his original purpose. Now, he finds zero fulfillment in his career because every passing year just feels like a heavier burden on his shoulders. He isn't even thinking about his family anymore—in fact, he’s neglecting them entirely, despite having achieved everything he set out to do long ago. At the end of the day, money—just money by itself—can't bring happiness to anyone unless they actually know how to *live*.

It all starts out so innocently—a person picks up a sport because they genuinely love the game, or perhaps they just have that desire to live a healthier, more active lifestyle. But as time marches on and that initial spark turns into an all-consuming passion, things start to shift. Suddenly, the very activity that brought them joy becomes a grueling burden—a weight they carry every single day. I’ve seen it happen: the athlete’s body begins to break down, literally tearing itself apart under the relentless pressure of their own drive. Now, look—professional sports is a whole different conversation that belongs in a different forum entirely—but the essence of sport itself shouldn't be this way. Engaging in physical activity should never transform a perfectly healthy individual into someone struggling with semi-permanent disabilities just because they hit their forties or fifties. At its core, sport is supposed to serve our health and build our strength; it isn't meant to be a platform for chasing trophies or seeking empty glory. It’s a tragedy, really, how easily an athlete can lose sight of that fundamental truth in the heat of their own obsession.

Our painter didn't pick up a brush for the sake of fame—not even close—he did it for himself. He spent his life capturing hundreds of those vivid, swirling dreams that lived only in his mind... but as time went on, he became so consumed by his own image and the weight of his work that he lost sight of where he came from. He drifted away from his roots, abandoned those original dreams, and essentially locked himself away within the walls of his studio. His technique? It’s absolutely extraordinary. But it makes you wonder... is this really how a man should live?

Passion can be such a double-edged sword—it has this incredible way of warping our entire perspective on the world. It’s easy to get swept up in the intensity of it all, but honestly? It doesn't have to be that way. I've come to realize that practicing a bit of moderation when it comes to our passions isn't about dampening our spirit; rather, it's about finding that sweet spot where we do enough to satisfy our deepest desires and actually hit those big life goals without burning out. To me, true balance means having a deep, honest understanding of who you are—knowing your own heart, sure, but also being acutely aware of your own limits. It's about knowing exactly where your strength ends and where you need to pause. Staying focused on the here and now—it sounds simple enough, doesn't it? But man, in the middle of all this modern chaos, actually pulling it off feels like an uphill battle. We spend so much of our mental energy drifting toward yesterday's regrets or worrying about what might happen next Tuesday, completely missing the actual moment we're living in. It’s about finding that center, that steady ground, right beneath our feet.So, basically— Let's not get carried away..

Passion is an essential—no, an extraordinary—part of being human, yet here you are, trying to impose some kind of control over it. Is it because you’re such a firm believer in moderation? I think I know exactly which aspect of passion you're referring to, but you seem to be missing the bigger picture: by talking the way you do, you're actually stifling passion itself.

No... I think I was being more than clear when I said I’m not talking about suppressing passion—I am talking about moderation. To me, practicing moderation isn't about extinguishing that fire; rather, it's about finding a balance. After all, being overly moderate can be just as extreme as completely surrendering oneself to an obsession. It's all about that middle ground.
Look, I’m not here to impose anything on anyone—I mean, do you realize this is just a forum? It’s not some legislative body in D.C., where the outcome of our debate dictates the laws of society. You’re getting way too hung up on the topic itself. Honestly, you’re taking this far too personally.

My opposition is essentially just classic self-defense against pure, unadulterated nonsense...

I read it, yet I didn't feel any urge to run from Passion as if it were the devil, or fear a path leading toward unrest... Quite the opposite, actually. Oh wait—how dare I, right, hollowviper72..?

Whatever you decide to choose for your own life path is completely irrelevant to me, and vice versa. My point is, you’re experiencing all of this on such a personal level, and you're actually the perfect example of how passion can cloud one's vision. If you could just look at this objectively, you'd see that I've pointed out in many places here that I have absolutely no intention—nor any desire—to dictate how anyone else should live their lives. This is about an exchange of ideas and principles. I present mine calmly, and I accept yours just as calmly.

I haven't banned anyone yet just because we disagree. 😉
I'm telling you—your obsession is making you blind to the true meaning of my words and the actual intentions behind them. 🙂

Dragonfly said:I’d argue that once he actually hit his "target," all that passion just evaporated.

👍 Good grief, I suppose even I have to concede the point to the fortune teller. 😁

It’s quite curious, isn't it? How some people claim passion is our greatest flaw while viewing apathy as a virtue. Personally, I find the exact opposite to be true. Apathy simply erodes a man; it leaves him limp, drifting aimlessly through some sort of ethereal void—much like those tales of 😁 and such. Passion, on the other hand, provides direction. It drives you toward a specific objective, provided you have the sense to set that goal correctly in the first place.

I’m reminded of how folks buy livestock at auction. You see them grabbing a bull by the tail to test its spirit. The one that fights back, the one that shows teeth, proves he possesses genuine fire, strength, and life. Then you have the dull, sluggish ox that just stares blankly with those wet, vacant eyes, letting everyone do whatever they want to him. No one ever buys a creature like that, because in the end, he’s nothing more than useless weight.

hollowviper72 said:Alexander Watson, Alexander Watson... you’re the perfect example of how passion can blind a person. In your desperate drive to prove me wrong, you'll toss aside every logical point and every word I say—simply because they're coming from me. You refuse to see anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notion of who I am, just so you can satisfy that itch to tear down my every argument.

No... actually, quite the opposite. I said VelmaX made an extraordinary comparison between addiction and obsession. She later argued they aren't the same thing, but I personally think they are.

Don't let it go to your head; this isn't about protecting anyone's reputation here.
If anyone else had started this thread with these points, I would have responded the exact same way.

My apologies regarding VelmaX; I shouldn't have lumped her in with you.
It is, frankly, absurd to equate passion with addiction. 😕 👎

If we’re being reasonable about this...
You're attacking me for being passionate, for my personality, and for supposedly insulting your name.
The truth is, I was just expressing my deep frustration with your weak logic.
In reality, you aren't even presenting arguments; you're just sharing your personal perspective...

And those are two entirely different things.

You're blurring the lines and inventing a hierarchy that simply doesn't exist.
Though, I suppose you'd say that on your own behalf.

Forgive me for not whipping out a massive scroll and slamming it onto our proverbial table in a grand gesture... 😉 but personally, I was most moved by the depiction of letting go of obsession as shown in "Little Buddha." Has anyone else here seen that film?

In it, you see Siddharth sitting at the edge of a forest after spending an eternity practicing grueling asceticism. At one point, he catches sight of a boat drifting down a nearby river, where a master musician is explaining how to play an instrument to his student.

"If you tighten the strings too much, they’ll snap," the master says. "But if you leave them too loose, they won't make a sound at all."

It was in that exact moment that Siddharth realized he had been blinded by his own intense passion for the Search for Truth; by abandoning that single-minded obsession, he finally let go of the ascetic lifestyle as well.
To his followers—who were understandably disappointed because their teacher was essentially tossing their ascetic teachings out the window—he said:

"The path toward enlightenment lies in the middle ground! It's the line drawn between all those opposing extremes!"

That, right there, is the core of Buddhism. It's about walking away from obsession.

Have you ever truly experienced that specific kind of hunger that hits right after a day of grueling physical labor out in the elements? Or perhaps that deep, bone-deep relaxation that only comes from sinking into a steaming hot bath after an absolutely exhausting day?

If it weren't for that intense exertion, his idea of "relaxing" would be completely meaningless; he wouldn't actually grasp or feel the sensation, and he’d be nothing more than a lazy slob rather than reaching a state of enlightenment.

And when he starts talking about the Middle Way, he's describing something quite ascetic. Just look at the rules of a monastic community. We're talking poverty, eating just one meal a day before noon, celibacy, and so on. To me, the Middle Way means you don't overindulge, but you also don't go fasting for forty days straight—though I suspect eating one light meal a day is actually closer to your personal definition of asceticism than it is to the actual Middle Way. Back in the days of Buddha, extreme tapas—this intense, self-mortifying asceticism—was all the rage in India. The Middle Way is about not punishing the body or the mind with those kinds of extremes, while simultaneously refusing to surrender to worldly pleasures. Buddha's teachings demand a significant amount of discipline and renunciation; please don't misuse the term "Middle Way" outside the context and meaning that Buddha intended. Do you honestly believe a disciple of Buddha, or generations of Buddhist monks, would spend entire days in meditation, striving to achieve what Buddha achieved, if they weren't driven by a desperate craving for liberation?

It is said that one of the fundamental prerequisites for moksha is the active pursuit of it. If you lack an intense, burning desire to end this game of worldly life, you aren't going to achieve it—so why bother? Is it just because philosophical debates about these topics sound sophisticated, making them a nice way to play pretend?

hollowviper72 said:"If you tighten the strings too much, they'll snap," the Master says. "But if you leave them too loose, they won't play at all."

So you just assume that automatically means finding some "middle ground"?😁
When you look at it through the lens of music, it’s really about finding that exact calibration—knowing precisely how much of everything you need in your life to pull out the most beautiful melody possible...😁
And that "exact amount" doesn't necessarily have to be moderate or "balanced" in the way people usually think.😁

I mean, have you ever turned the music up louder than what you actually needed to hear?😛

It’s all within us... in that one specific regard, I find myself agreeing with Pesica—that the very definition of moderation is something we define for ourselves. However, moderation is merely one facet of wisdom. Another essential marker is awareness.

And let’s not forget the reality that an aware individual never descends into extremes, regardless of how we might perceive them or which direction they take.

Everything I’ve laid out here should be understood in a more fundamental sense. I am discussing core principles, yet people constantly try to distill those principles into rigid, mathematical formulas. 🙄

Honestly, this just reminded me why I stopped engaging in serious discussions on online forums altogether. It’s a shame, really, but most people here seem solely interested in the art of winning an argument. It’s such a waste of potential. Am I mocking anyone here for their views? No. And I wouldn't dream of saying that applies to me, either.

But then again, that isn't my burden to carry. I’ve said my piece here. 🙂

hollowviper72 said:I’ve already made my point. 🙂

Honestly, you say this all the time. It’s becoming a bit of a cliché, isn't it? You can't actually win an argument when you're just blathering on without any foundation, logic, or actual knowledge, yet somehow you still manage to play the victim and act like your feelings are wounded just because you can't hold your own.

hollowviper72, stop whining like a baby and stand up for yourself like a man! 😁

I honestly don't know how much of your post actually hits home for me, and since I could easily be one of those people you're calling out, let me just clarify something... for me, this isn't about "winning" an argument, it's just about having a different perspective. 😁
Sure, I could write back telling you exactly what I think and pick a fight, but if that was my actual approach toward everyone, I probably shouldn't even be on this forum in the first place.
It feels exhausting trying to find something to disagree with just to force my point of view on someone else, while they try to shove theirs down my throat. And honestly, I almost feel bad if we end up agreeing in the end, but there’s always some kind of compromise to be made... 😁

What kind of discussion can I even have with you if I believe the exact same things you do?
What's even the point then? Just sitting around patting each other on the back?
And when I "rebut" your points, I'm not being serious or mocking them, despite 😛 the smilies and the little jabs. (😛 those are aimed at you, not your opinion. 😁)
How am I supposed to take any opinion seriously when I truly believe everyone has the right to their own views, even if they're totally ridiculous?

Seriously, stop the unnecessary drama.
First you tell everyone else they're taking the forum too personally, and then you go and prove that you're actually worse. 🙄

Honestly, Jack Harris3, it wasn’t really personal. You poke a little fun, sure, but it’s clear there’s no malice behind it—no real grudge. I won’t name names here; those people already know who they are.

As for me, look, I love a good, deep discussion, obviously. But lately, I just don't have the energy to sit around arguing over who’s right and who’s wrong—especially when we're talking about spirituality. What I’m actually looking for is a healthy exchange... call it a mental workout, or just a genuine desire to connect with people, because let's face it, finding someone to talk about these things with in real life isn't exactly easy (not yet, at least).

So, I'm not complaining... it's just that I have zero interest in these petty bickering matches where everyone's trying to prove whose spiritual guru is tougher than the other's. Like, seriously? 🙂

Speaking of passion, I honestly feel like people who go out of their way to stay "moderate" end up missing just as much of life as those who let their passions run wild.

I mean, besides the fact that you can't even define what moderation actually looks like if you haven't experienced the extremes—it's like trying to learn how to tune a guitar without ever snapping a string... don't you think every single experience is worth its weight in gold? 😁
It sounds like you're chasing wisdom, but real experience is such a massive part of that journey.
Sometimes, hitting those extremes is exactly what teaches you how to find balance.
Before you decide a theory is absolute truth, you really ought to test it out in the real world—not just the theory itself, but everything that contradicts it too. 😁
You don't truly know anything until you've lived it. And even then, you might not know everything, but at least you'll be a little less clueless... 😂

Gautama Buddha:
___________________________________
"The path toward Enlightenment lies right in the middle! It's the line drawn between all opposing extremes!"
___________________________________

How much deception can one find here?
How much sheer nonsense is packed into just one single UNENLIGHTENED THOUGHT?

First of all—a "PATH"?
What kind of "PATH" are we talking about?

The moment you define something as a path, you have already established a START and an END.
How can anyone hope to grasp ETERNITY using a concept that possesses a beginning and a conclusion, my fellow forum members?

And then there is "toward Enlightenment."
What sort of "Enlightenment" is this?
Are we discussing something that implies a goal, a meaning, or a specific purpose?

Does this mean that "Suchness" itself has a purpose?
Does it imply that "THATNESS," or simply "WHAT IS," is drifting toward some distant destination?
Who exactly was it that "DEFINED" such a destination, ladies and gentlemen?
And who, pray tell, is supposed to be "pulling" toward this destination?
Does that not make "WILL" a necessary component?

But whose WILL would that actually be?
If it belongs to God, then that WILL must somehow exist above God Himself.
If it belongs to the Destination, then that God must possess his own "Selfhood" or "empirical consciousness," even if we choose to call him God.

If God Himself possesses a "Self" or an "Ego," why on earth would His certain, humanoid nature be any harm to a man?
If that's the case, then everything we believe is fundamentally flawed.
After all, if God Himself is sailing toward His own America, why shouldn't we all yearn for it too?

And this "MIDDLE WAY"!?
How charming.
If we are looking for a "middle," look no further than the way Jack Harris3 conducts himself and lives his life.
Let Gautama Buddha try to prove otherwise personally.
Jack Harris3 could easily snap at him for all that "Sangha" nonsense.🙂 😠 🙏

Velma said:Stamps don't possess some inherent energy; they’re just whatever happens to catch your eye. Why does one person obsess over postage stamps while someone else fixates on something entirely different? Honestly, I haven't a clue.

If you want my take...

Collecting is really just a leftover vestige of our hunter-gatherer lifestyle—that primal way of life we supposedly moved past in modern civilization, even though we spent millions of years perfecting it before it vanished. Whether it's stamps, comic books, rare novels, vintage vinyl, or even just collecting craft beer cans—I personally collect DVDs and CDs. At its core, it's always about the thrill of the hunt: finding that specific item, securing it, and feeling that rush of satisfaction once it's yours.

It's the exact same impulse that drives competitive sports, though in athletics, that predatory instinct from our hunter-gatherer roots takes center stage.

Pesic said:I've been wondering what the actual difference is between passion and addiction. It’s such a fine line, and honestly, it's hard to put into words because the symptoms look almost identical.
I'd say they aren't quite the same thing, though.

Tricky, ain't it? 😁

What they share is how they manifest in our brains as frustration. That forces us to ask ourselves: where is this frustration coming from that drives us toward certain thoughts or actions?

But I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the distinction.

Pesic said:I actually think most people have plenty of it; the passionate ones are just those who channel it into something specific, while the moderate ones scatter it everywhere. 😂

Even though your phrasing was 😂pretty hilarious, you aren't far from the truth (at least in my book). 😁

says:
If you just exist without any reflection, you aren't searching for anything—so nothing will ever reveal itself to you. There is no reaction without action. If there is no quest, there is nothing to be found. A life lived without awareness is merely existing.

Well now. First off, what exactly is driving this urge to seek some kind of 'revelation'?It seems to me that this is the fundamental frustration shared by everyone in our modern society—both here in the West and across the East. People simply haven't learned how to live in harmony with their surroundings or even with themselves. I believe Jack Harris3 is one of the few who has actually realized this, and you're certainly on the right track...

says:
No... I was being quite clear. I am not talking about suppressing passion; I am talking about moderation. Moderation, by its very definition, precludes suppression, which is just as much of an extreme as total surrender.

👍